01:40:52 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 01:40:52 01:40:52 -!- names: ccl-logbot phao iffsid bfig pygospa acarrico estevocastro xwl homie dnolen sontek tuubow_ confab copumpkin rageous MrFahrenheit dobroerlanger_ lcc _schulte_ pothos bitonic jao asdfhjkl hopfrog dlouhy ve yosafbridge klutometis GoKhlaYeh CampinSam antoszka djcb karswell Riastradh sawgij ASau leppie masm coolcusty wollw Arafangion forcer bipt rudybot em shardz cswords daedric githogori jrslepak_neu tessier Inode_ _p4bl0 X-Scale cyphase poindont` hypnocat 01:40:52 -!- names: fizzie sharkbird araujo Pepe_ wingo arbscht clog stepnem aking REPLeffect mario-goulart mmc dotemacs snorble_ bweaver pjb cozmic\ dostoyevsky preflex cmatei pranq sporous Euthydemus Nisstyre BigEndian LeoNerd gnomon sestisr Axioplase eli Nshag fbs twem2 YokYok Khisanth miql yamanu ski FireFly gffa nowhereman gf3 asumu kandinski offby1 fgudin amoe snarkyboojum gejr cataska brendyn kanru drdo acieroid levi m4burns dsp_ tali713 tokiya moll z0d joast 01:40:52 -!- names: SeanTAllen elly izz__ ecraven teiresias muep metasyntax|work stamourv fds foocraft Obfuscate rvchangue finnrobi cky peterhil gabot qu1j0t3 surrounder foof SHODAN ozzloy rotty dan64 jakky r126f saccadewrk danking samth felipe Intensity eMBee Razz aehrisch ineiros ray certainty dnm xian_ duncanm weinholt fhd jaimef tizoc erg ec aoh cow-orker Saeren micro__ zbigniew ft shachaf rapacity DerGuteMoritz evhan devn 01:42:55 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.138.218] has joined #scheme 01:43:17 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-148-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:43:59 -!- phao [phao@177.115.13.50] has quit [Quit: Fui embora] 01:44:27 qu1j0t3: Yep. 01:44:30 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.138.218] has quit [Client Quit] 01:44:56 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.138.218] has joined #scheme 01:47:06 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.138.218] has quit [Client Quit] 01:47:10 -!- bitonic [~Francesco@93-40-120-57.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 01:50:57 -!- masm [~masm@bl17-192-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:52:54 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 01:58:47 arcfide [~arcfide@c-98-223-204-153.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:00:19 RomyRomy [~stickycak@70.88.154.33] has joined #scheme 02:08:48 virl [~virl__@85-127-248-189.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #scheme 02:10:00 -!- GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@117.31.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:16:15 tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.37.18] has joined #scheme 02:17:04 hi, schemers. Is there a standard why of writing documentation of scheme procedures? 02:17:22 nope. 02:17:25 next question. 02:19:25 offby1: ok, here it goes. I am using scheme-complete (on emacs) and eldoc together. Now I can see what args a procedure needs while I type it on emacs. But I d like to see a small description of the procedures. Emacs Lisp has something called docstring, so I was wondering if I could find something like that for scheme. 02:23:47 tcleval: It varies by Scheme. 02:23:57 (implementations) 02:24:13 tcleval: I too wish there were something like that :-| 02:25:30 -!- hopfrog [~bill@76.73.221.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:31 offby1: I could guess what the function does by its name and args, but when I dont use that function for a long time, I ll probably open the file where it is defined to read the documentation 02:30:03 sure 02:33:19 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-106-178.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:48:39 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-25-166.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:49:21 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 02:54:16 -!- wollw [~davidsher@75-101-85-170.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:54:19 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:59:06 Guile has docstrings. It's nice. :-) 02:59:10 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 03:00:51 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@70.88.154.33] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 03:02:49 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 03:03:59 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:06:06 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-59.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:12:21 cky: anything like docstrings to gambit-c or maybe kawa? 03:32:22 RomyRomy [~stickycak@70.88.154.33] has joined #scheme 03:34:38 -!- iffsid [~user@c-98-222-193-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:37:18 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:38:31 -!- estevocastro [~estevocas@cpe-74-72-192-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:39:38 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #scheme 03:42:02 -!- asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE1.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:49:48 jcowan [~John@cpe-66-108-19-185.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:51:23 kniu [~kniu@pool-173-75-156-3.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:51:34 hoi 03:52:57 jake__ [~jake@63.249.57.43] has joined #scheme 03:56:02 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@70.88.154.33] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 04:01:03 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-59.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:03:21 -!- forcer [~forcer@hmbg-5f765ef9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:06:59 woonie [~woonie@175.156.240.29] has joined #scheme 04:11:49 -!- coolcusty [~kcenac@pool-108-46-109-39.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:21:16 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.176] has joined #scheme 04:34:15 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 04:42:29 floater [~e30dd50ec@nude.lesbianbath.com] has joined #scheme 04:49:57 h 04:59:27 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 05:00:07 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:03:21 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:04:01 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:09:58 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-66-108-19-185.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:12:34 jcowan [~John@cpe-66-108-19-185.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:17:07 -!- jake__ [~jake@63.249.57.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:17:58 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:18:09 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 05:18:23 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 05:29:26 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-66-108-19-185.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:55:07 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:04:20 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:14:04 cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-206-74.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 06:22:18 coolcusty [~kcenac@pool-108-46-109-39.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:27:27 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:37:40 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:38:41 tclevalm2 [~funnyguy@177.19.75.217] has joined #scheme 06:41:15 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.37.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:41:15 -!- tclevalm2 is now known as tcleval 06:44:58 ijp [~user@host109-150-132-196.range109-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 06:53:15 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-88.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 06:55:34 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-59.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:59:43 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 07:04:00 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:11:05 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-34.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:16:23 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@177.19.75.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:19:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-34.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:22:43 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-106-178.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:26:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-219-136.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:30:36 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:36:46 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 07:37:33 albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 07:37:33 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:37:33 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 07:38:01 mmc1 [~michal@178-85-63-71.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 07:38:57 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:51:20 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 08:00:03 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:00:40 -!- coolcusty [~kcenac@pool-108-46-109-39.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:19:54 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:20:09 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 08:44:24 -!- ijp [~user@host109-150-132-196.range109-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:59:05 ijp [~user@host109-150-132-196.range109-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 08:59:58 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 09:04:19 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:12:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-219-136.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:28:59 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:31:11 antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 09:36:47 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 09:42:54 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 09:44:53 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@c-98-223-204-153.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:53:08 keenbug [~daniel@p4FE397F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 09:53:27 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:57:44 -!- antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:01 namoamitabuddha [~namoamita@unaffiliated/namoamitabuddha] has joined #scheme 10:07:47 dzhus [~sphinx@176.14.94.92] has joined #scheme 10:11:39 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15:09 -!- keenbug [~daniel@p4FE397F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:15:11 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-88.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:20:27 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-183.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:23:16 ijp` [~user@host86-169-200-14.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 10:24:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-42.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 10:24:51 -!- ijp [~user@host109-150-132-196.range109-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:29:17 leo2007 [~leo@114.252.82.135] has joined #scheme 10:31:57 bitonic [~Francesco@93-40-81-234.ip37.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 10:33:39 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.252.82.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:33:43 SpacePoet [~StarPoet@ppp-171-96-36-88.revip8.asianet.co.th] has joined #scheme 10:33:48 what is the difference between map and apply? 10:38:50 map: call function n times with one argument 10:38:51 apply: call function 1 time with n arguments 10:44:19 leo2007 [~leo@114.252.82.135] has joined #scheme 10:51:02 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 10:51:16 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:51:41 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 10:52:06 -!- pjb is now known as Guest12060 10:53:09 choas [~lars@p4FDC4D04.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 10:53:14 -!- Guest12060 is now known as pjb 10:55:25 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable034.210-160-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 10:57:03 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable034.210-160-184.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02:03 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 11:03:46 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.252.82.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:04:43 (apply + '(2 3)) <-> (car (map + '(2) '(3))) 11:05:11 leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.68] has joined #scheme 11:08:01 namoamitabuddha: but notice that map calls apply. apply doesn't call map. 11:08:51 pjb: Yes. 11:09:35 djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 11:10:49 asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE1.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 11:10:55 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 11:14:34 -!- choas [~lars@p4FDC4D04.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:20:51 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:22:28 masm [~masm@bl17-192-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 11:25:46 thats a long name 11:27:58 -!- SpacePoet [~StarPoet@ppp-171-96-36-88.revip8.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120310010446]] 11:30:14 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-183.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:34:33 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-55.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:35:11 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-43-65.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 11:47:29 -!- confab [~confab@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:11:21 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15:00 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.68] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.94.1] 12:28:34 -!- woonie [~woonie@175.156.240.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:29:50 woonie [~woonie@175.156.240.29] has joined #scheme 12:32:14 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 12:42:19 keenbug [~daniel@p4FE397F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 12:50:07 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 12:50:48 confab [~confab@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:51:05 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:52:12 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:52:19 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 12:55:33 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-88.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 12:57:48 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:59:40 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 13:01:20 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:02:38 -!- woonie [~woonie@175.156.240.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:05:40 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:05:44 snizzo [~Claudio@83.224.71.11] has joined #scheme 13:15:48 -!- bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-52-171-180.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:16:16 bfig [~b_fin_g@r190-135-10-120.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 13:17:41 -!- snizzo [~Claudio@83.224.71.11] has left #scheme 13:19:20 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:19:28 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 13:20:55 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-88.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:21:38 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:24:52 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-88.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:35:34 -!- keenbug [~daniel@p4FE397F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:35:37 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 13:39:55 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 13:40:25 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:42:36 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:50:46 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@c-a9b1e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:24 SHODAN [~shozan@c-a9b1e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 13:55:48 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-219-163.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 13:56:23 annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:56:23 -!- annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:56:23 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 14:03:34 If any R7RS discussion group moderators are around: could you please accept my post I sent yesterday? 14:03:58 R5RS is in fashion 14:21:44 wollw [~davidsher@75-101-85-170.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 14:26:18 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-43-65.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 14:29:33 -!- asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE1.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:42:33 -!- namoamitabuddha [~namoamita@unaffiliated/namoamitabuddha] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 14:42:44 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:43:06 HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db586ec.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 14:43:28 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:44:33 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db586ec.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:47:44 HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db586ec.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 14:48:40 -!- bitonic [~Francesco@93-40-81-234.ip37.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:48:43 -!- virl [~virl__@85-127-248-189.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:49 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:48:49 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 14:52:22 bitonic [~Francesco@93-40-81-234.ip37.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 15:00:43 p2-m21 [~Adium@18.111.73.77] has joined #scheme 15:00:47 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:06:30 ijp` [~user@host109-154-206-125.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 15:08:00 -!- ijp [~user@host86-169-200-14.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:08:20 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 15:11:14 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:14:59 p2-m2 [~Adium@18.111.73.77] has joined #scheme 15:16:08 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-55.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:16:49 -!- p2-m21 [~Adium@18.111.73.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:20:31 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@176.14.94.92] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:59 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-55.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:33:18 -!- pchrist_ is now known as pchrist 15:34:14 GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@117.31.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 15:36:43 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:38:35 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 15:38:42 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:39:41 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-55.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:39:54 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:41:17 tupi [~david@177.31.218.131] has joined #scheme 15:43:07 -!- confab [~confab@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:45:03 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-55.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:45:05 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 15:48:40 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.33.24] has joined #scheme 15:52:09 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-55.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:56:20 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-20.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:59:22 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 15:59:31 dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has joined #scheme 15:59:46 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 16:00:48 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 16:04:27 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:10:30 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 16:12:33 confab [~confab@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:16:10 asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE1.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 16:17:20 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:20:20 n00b4lyfe [~n00b4lyfe@unaffiliated/tasmania] has joined #scheme 16:21:11 djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 16:28:29 CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 16:29:04 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:29:29 -!- p2-m2 [~Adium@18.111.73.77] has left #scheme 16:35:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.78.87] has joined #scheme 16:35:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.78.87] has quit [Changing host] 16:35:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 16:45:38 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:09 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.33.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:50:18 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-20.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:51:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:55:29 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-79-226.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:58:28 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 17:08:47 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-79-226.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:12:06 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:10 leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-89.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:14:48 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:16:59 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-43-65.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 17:17:30 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:18:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.78.87] has joined #scheme 17:18:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.78.87] has quit [Changing host] 17:18:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 17:22:50 How does Petite Chez Scheme compare to the other major Schemes? 17:24:44 C-Keen [cckeen@pestilenz.org] has joined #scheme 17:25:05 i think it is good, and pretty fast for an interpreter 17:26:32 i dont use it a lot though, except to cross check results 17:28:58 I'm looking for a decent Scheme that runs on 32 and 64 bit GNU/Linux. I've been using GNU/MIT-Scheme a lot, but keep running into problems :( 17:29:08 chicken should be fine... 17:30:53 I'm happy with bigloo on gentoo 64-bit. 17:30:59 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-89.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:32:50 Do either Chicken or Bigloo have decent SLIME support for Emacs? 17:34:47 leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.66] has joined #scheme 17:35:13 ecraven: chicken has a WIP swank backend which is not so in progress lately 17:36:31 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-141.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:37:44 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:38:56 samth_ [~samth@c-66-31-201-165.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:39:10 -!- tuubow_ [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-02.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:39:23 tuubow_ [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:42:40 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:44:08 mario-goulart: did you ever find a HAML parser? 17:44:32 djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 17:50:01 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@37.99.78.87] has joined #scheme 17:50:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:50:05 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 17:50:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.78.87] has quit [Changing host] 17:50:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 17:52:03 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-141.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:56:31 leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-89.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:59:50 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 18:00:45 Is there any Scheme that compiles to native code at runtime, like Self did? 18:01:15 -!- tuubow_ [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:01:18 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:02:44 mit-scheme doesn't seem to have a 64bit debian package. 18:03:10 It definitely does have a 64bit version though :) 18:03:45 Ikarus/vicare did/does 18:04:35 ecraven: not wheezy 18:06:31 -!- tupi [~david@177.31.218.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:07:02 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #scheme 18:08:26 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db586ec.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 18:08:54 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #scheme 18:16:08 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:19:38 HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db586ec.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 18:22:05 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db586ec.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:23:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:30:29 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.66] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.94.1] 18:33:03 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-106-178.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:38:15 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-88.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:40:34 dzhus [~sphinx@176.14.94.92] has joined #scheme 18:46:23 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-219-163.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:56:38 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-89.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:02:16 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-48.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:05:17 -!- sharkbird [~user@67-220-6-139.usiwireless.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:59 jcowan [~John@cpe-66-108-19-185.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:12:54 hoi 19:19:18 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-48.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:21:24 sharkbird [~user@sharkbird.com] has joined #scheme 19:23:52 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-48.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:24:38 -!- sharkbird [~user@sharkbird.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:08 sharkbird [~user@sharkbird.com] has joined #scheme 19:29:47 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 19:29:53 Does anyone know how much a license for Chez Scheme is approximately for a single user (i.e. developing for my own use and running on my local machine, no distribution to others)? 19:30:15 -!- sharkbird [~user@sharkbird.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:41 sharkbird [~user@sharkbird.com] has joined #scheme 19:30:43 ecraven, i've heard the rumor that it's in the 1000s, but i have no actual knowledge 19:32:23 lolcow [~lolcow@196-209-224-89.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:33:25 -!- sharkbird [~user@sharkbird.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:43 -!- cozmic\ [cozmic@89-160-133-29.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:33:54 sharkbird [~user@sharkbird.com] has joined #scheme 19:35:02 cozmic [cozmic@89-160-133-29.du.xdsl.is] has joined #scheme 19:35:31 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-48.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:35:40 rudybot: if you have to ask, you can't afford it 19:35:41 ijp: I just have to decide whether to upgrade my RAM or wait a couple months until I can afford something new. 19:36:37 ecraven: just out of mild curiosity, why would you want to, with so many other Schemes available? 19:37:01 rudybot: do you have a job, or does offby1 give you an allowance? 19:37:01 ijp: contemplates setting up a script to ensure that I use 90+% of my montly data allowance from comcast, in the vain hope that I'll skew their statistics regarding whether the allowance is large enough. 19:38:43 jcowan: just interested. I've been looking for a Scheme implementation that is like SBCL, but Scheme ;) (i.e. compiled, yet interactive. decent module or package system. multi-threading support. that kind of things) 19:39:54 HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db586ec.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 19:40:39 ecraven, allow me to recommend racket :) 19:42:37 Racket, Gambit, Chicken are the top rank given those criteria, I'd say, with Bigloo and Larceny next (less well supported) 19:42:43 samth_: for historical reasons i dislike it, but it seems i should re-evaluate this stance :) 19:43:00 *jcowan* knows less about more Schemes than anybody. 19:44:01 my understanding is that of the scheme's jcowan listed, Racket, Bigloo, and Larceny run roughly the same execution engine at the REPL as in "pre-compiled" mode 19:44:12 whereas Gambit and Chicken have separate interpreters 19:45:00 I doubt that is true of Bigloo 19:50:39 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-233.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:51:24 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:52:53 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:53:18 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-233.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:53:39 Thanks for the hints, I'll look into these! 19:54:27 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 19:56:09 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db586ec.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 19:56:58 HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db586ec.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 19:57:09 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-233.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:57:58 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:58:44 annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:58:44 -!- annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:58:44 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 20:05:18 Bigloo seems to only have an AOT compiler via C or JVM 20:06:59 Yes, its interpreter is a bytecode compiler separate from the main compilers. 20:10:04 jhemann [~Jason@adsl-99-31-15-148.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:10:47 jcowan, thanks for the info 20:13:42 evening, schemers 20:16:19 wingo: ola 20:21:25 -!- lolcow [~lolcow@196-209-224-89.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:25:37 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-11-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:28:08 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:30:40 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-11-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:31:10 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 20:34:28 leppie [~lolcow@196.209.233.112] has joined #scheme 20:36:50 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:31 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #scheme 20:43:52 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:47:11 Anyone have a view on what `eqv?` should do on numbers? The issue is around +nan.0. 20:47:37 R5RS always returns #f, R6RS has an "operational equivalence" definition. 20:50:53 mark_weaver [~user@c-98-216-245-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:53:03 jcowan: I gave Guile's eqv? the R6RS "operational equivalence" semantics, which I find useful for memoization purposes. 20:54:00 Yes, it allows you to treat +nan.0 as an ordinary object that can be put into containers and taken out again. 20:55:27 In general, I agree with Brad Lucier's recent writing on this topic. 20:56:29 *jcowan* nods. 20:56:39 I'm still favoring making it unspecified, though. 20:57:06 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 20:57:08 I'll post something about memoization, unless you'd rather do it. 20:57:11 jcowan: I don't know if this has been brought up, but what is the state of equivalence of procedures? 20:57:29 ijp: Not required. 20:57:34 jcowan: please do! 20:57:36 (undefined) 20:57:40 r6rs leaves (let ((p (lambda () ...))) (eqv? p p)) undefined 20:57:48 but it does specify (eq? car car) as true 20:57:49 Technically, yes. 20:57:59 It does? 20:58:18 unless this was corrected in the errata 20:58:23 *ijp* checsk 20:58:40 The eq? and eqv? predicates are guaranteed to have the same behavior on [...] procedures, [...]. 20:58:47 (that should be quoted) 20:58:49 ah yes, it was corrected in the erratta 20:58:56 http://www.r6rs.org/r6rs-jfp-errata.html top one :) 20:59:18 *jcowan* nods 20:59:27 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:59:38 I was confused by this, and had thought maybe this was the case because it module imports were immutable 21:00:02 but that no longer matters 21:01:17 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 21:01:34 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:04:30 In any case, all of Racket, Guile, Ikarus/Vicare, Larceny, Ypsilon, Mosh, IronScheme actually do make (let ((x (lambda () ...))) (eqv? x x) => #t. 21:05:20 are we still talking about eqv? 21:05:59 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:07:17 *ijp* checks guile 21:07:20 jcowan: regarding eqv?: there is a need for _some_ standard equivalence predicate that can be used for memoization of numerical procedures, otherwise I don't know how to memoize portably. this is very similar to what Brad has already written, though he didn't mention memoization specifically. 21:08:13 hmm, I thought peval was more aggressive 21:08:39 jcowan: the nice thing about using 'eqv?' (or 'equal?') for that purpose is that it can be used to memoize polymorphic procedures. 21:08:39 mark_weaver: what's wrong with equal? 21:11:29 jcowan: sure, I was just looking for clarification on what I thought was a contradiction 21:11:54 adu: the R5RS requires that 'equal?' and 'eqv?' are equivalent when applied to numbers. 21:12:18 So whatever we do for eqv? influences equal? as well. 21:12:41 There's a WG2 proposal to add `equal=?`, which is like `equal` but uses `=` rather than `eqv?` on numbers. 21:12:56 mark_weaver: but R6RS only requires that for exact numbers 21:14:16 rudybot: what do you think about this matter? 21:14:17 ijp: i tend to use #' as a matter of habit 21:16:33 To my mind, '=' has some rather odd behavior [such as (= +0.0 -0.0) and (not (= +nan.0 +nan.0)] that is long established and useful for numerical algorithms, but that for other purposes such as memoization, operational equivalence is the key property that is needed. We need both. 21:17:06 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 21:18:35 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.209.233.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:19:00 For that matter, I also don't know how to portably distinguish +0.0 from -0.0 without an equivalence predicate with operational semantics. 21:19:24 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-206-74.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:19:27 +0.0 and -0.0 are not operationally equivalent 21:19:59 icrazyhack [horieyui@115.172.44.204] has joined #scheme 21:20:04 adu: yes, I know, and that's why I believe (not (eqv? +0.0 -0.0)) 21:20:23 -!- dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-suxfvflabwmdybjc] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:21:54 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #scheme 21:22:59 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 21:23:05 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-156-34.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:24:59 The other way to look at it is this: in typical cases where you compare two objects without regard to their types, which type of equivalence is more useful? In the cases I'm familiar with (e.g. lookup tables, memoization), I believe "operational equivalence" is more useful. What is the use of 'equal=?'? I don't know. 21:25:00 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:25:30 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 21:25:46 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wifqamlgqlnoakno] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:25:51 -!- icrazyhack [horieyui@115.172.44.204] has quit [Quit: http://www.cnblogs.com/crazyhack] 21:26:00 -!- mmc1 [~michal@178-85-63-71.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:26:09 antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 21:27:59 ijp: peval usually doesn't copy lambdas, but it can do so in some circumstances 21:28:15 i can't think of one right now, but i think it's possible ;) 21:31:30 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:32:14 dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hfhthkfrytaeypkq] has joined #scheme 21:34:46 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:37 -!- dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hfhthkfrytaeypkq] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:39:19 The other thing is that, since the R5RS requires (not (eqv? 0 0.0)), 'eqv?' is already quite useless for the kinds of things you'd use '=' for. 21:45:34 All reports require that numbers of different exactness are = but not eqv?. 21:48:20 But yes, I take your point. 21:48:34 dotemacs [~u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yatmblclooeburkp] has joined #scheme 21:49:10 What would be better is a function that does what `equal?` does, but allows you to pass it a function to use to decide atomic equality. 21:49:28 Henry Baker's EGAL is also interesting: it descends into immutables but uses object identity for mutables. 21:49:36 GoKhlaYe1 [~GoKhlaYeh@235.31.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 21:50:36 My suspicion is that the real intent of the early RnRS definitions of 'eqv?' on numbers was 'operational equivalence', even if they hadn't formulated it as such in their minds. Instead, they wrote a definition that was based on their specific implementation at the time. 21:51:39 (apologizies for rambling on about this) 21:52:04 -!- GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@117.31.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:53:07 -!- dotemacs [~u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yatmblclooeburkp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:54:10 That's true. See http://lists.scheme-reports.org/pipermail/scheme-reports/2012-March/002016.html for the history. 21:54:10 http://tinyurl.com/856hv9u 21:54:48 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 21:55:31 jcowan: yes, I read that post with great interest! I'd be very curious to know why they dropped the 'operational equivalence' concept from the R4RS. 21:57:14 jcowan: maybe they were concerned about the details of the definition of 'operational equivalence', which admittedly has some tricky aspects. for example, there may be some primitive procedures that allow you to take apart a number and see internal details that don't matter for higher-level numerical operations. 21:58:56 A practical compromise is to limit the notion of operational equivalence to some reasonable set of numerical procedures, namely the ones that treat numbers "abstractly" (I don't know exactly how best to word it). 21:59:24 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db586ec.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:59:53 I think it was simpler: the phrase "o.e." was not used in any other context, so it could just be replaced by its definition. 22:00:27 The actual definition did not change between R3 and R5. 22:00:31 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-156-34.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:01:12 I can see how a reasonable person might decide to avoid opening this can of worms (the precise defn of o.e.), and instead write a specific definition of 'eqv?' in terms of how it's implemented. 22:02:19 It is precisely defined in R3 already. 22:02:40 R4 just eta-substitutes the definitions for the term. 22:02:57 (beta-substitutes? I always get that wrong) 22:03:02 ah, okay. so R3 defines it as '=' and with the same exactness? 22:04:30 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-233.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:04:37 Right. 22:04:59 But it does so as a definition of o.e., not as a definition of eqv?, at least directly. 22:05:13 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-43-65.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:05:54 So in R3, we get: Eqv? is defined as operational equivalence, which means thus-and-so. In R4, we get: Eqv? is defined as thus-and-so. 22:06:04 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-234-240.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 22:06:05 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-233.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:07:01 jcowan: Okay, so that removes all doubt about their intent. Thanks for doing the research! I think it's quite clear that the definition simply should be updated to take into about signed zeroes and nans. 22:07:35 s/into about/into account/ 22:08:43 sabayonuser [~sabayonus@187.172.174.116] has joined #scheme 22:09:10 Historical origin does not always dictate current use, however. The fact is that a lot of Schemes return #f for (eqv? +nan.0 +nan.0). 22:09:30 Or to look at it another way, they do not treat it as an object. 22:09:47 OTOH, many return #t for (let ((x +nan.0)) (eqv? x x)). 22:10:10 It is understandable, given a strict reading of the R5RS. 22:10:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-42.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:51 I think this shows that it was a mistake to remove the 'o.e.' language, because in the absence of a written rationale, it's not clear how to adapt the def'n to new circumstances (e.g. the addition of signed zeroes and nans) 22:13:15 hi, can somebody help me with map and apply? 22:13:21 -!- sabayonuser is now known as knightlain 22:13:21 jcowan: have you done a survey of how various implementations handle (eqv? +0.0 -0.0) ? 22:13:23 In the alternative, the R4 authors were deliberately deciding to abandon the intensional definition in favor of a purely extensional one. 22:13:34 mark_weaver: No, but I can in two ticks. Hold on. 22:16:03 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:16:13 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:17:19 iffsid [~user@c-98-222-193-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:18:44 I think perhaps the strongest argument is that on an IEEE 754 based system, 'eqv?' as defined by the R5RS is really not a good tool for any job involving numbers. Either it should be useful for things like checking termination conditions in numerical algorithms (which is what '=' does), or it should be useful for memoization, lookup tables, sets of numbers, etc, in which case the R6RS 'eqv?' is the right thing. 22:19:27 (((B 2) (D 10)) ((C 9) (E 5)) ((A 12) (D 6)) ((E 7)) ((C 3))) 22:19:45 I really don't know what use there is to an equality predicate where (eqv? 0 0.0) => #false and (eqv? +0.0 -0.0) => #true. 22:19:49 does anybody know how to get the firs element of each? 22:20:07 knightlain: (map car list). 22:20:25 well 22:20:27 but for example 22:20:35 ,(map car '(((B 2) (D 10)) ((C 9) (E 5)) ((A 12) (D 6)) ((E 7)) ((C 3)))) 22:20:42 I want to get B, D, C, E, A, D, E and C 22:20:44 rudybot: (map car '(((B 2) (D 10)) ((C 9) (E 5)) ((A 12) (D 6)) ((E 7)) ((C 3)))) 22:20:44 pjb: ; Value: ((B 2) (C 9) (A 12) (E 7) (C 3)) 22:21:13 knightlain: well then it's a little more complicated, you will have to write a program. 22:22:51 another question 22:22:56 mark_weaver: Only Racket, Gambit, Guile, Kawa, Chez, Vicare, Larceny, Spark distinguish between 0.0 and -0.0 22:23:02 how can I use conditions with map and apply? 22:23:09 The R6RS got a lot of things terribly wrong, but they made some very wise decisions regarding numerics (such as standardizing the two best sets of division operators: euclidean and centered, but I digress :). It would be a shame if the R7RS turned out to be a regression in the area of numerics. 22:23:11 for example 22:23:16 I want the elements in list A 22:23:38 However, some of that may be a result of bugs around reading "-0.0" correctly. 22:23:43 jcowan: thanks. that list of impls is good company to be in :) 22:23:43 rudybot: (define (firsts-of-sublists l) (cond ((null? l) '()) ((pair? (car l)) (append (firsts-of-sublists (car l)) (firsts-of-sublists (cdr l)))) (else (list (car l))))) 22:23:43 pjb: Done. 22:23:46 (some of the #t responses, that is) 22:23:50 rudybot: (firsts-of-sublists '(((B 2) (D 10)) ((C 9) (E 5)) ((A 12) (D 6)) ((E 7)) ((C 3)))) 22:23:50 pjb: ; Value: (B D C E A D E C) 22:24:21 rudybot: (define A '(1 2 3 4)) 22:24:21 pjb: Done. 22:24:32 rudybot: ,A 22:24:32 pjb: error: #:1:0: unquote: not in quasiquote in: (unquote A) 22:24:35 rudybot: A 22:24:35 pjb: ; Value: (1 2 3 4) 22:24:48 knightlain: to get the elements in the list A, just use A. 22:25:36 (define g 22:25:36 '((A (B 2) (D 10)) 22:25:36 (B (C 9) (E 5)) 22:25:36 (C (A 12) (D 6)) 22:25:36 (D (E 7)) 22:25:37 (E (C 3)) 22:25:39 ) 22:25:41 ) 22:25:45 this is my list, and I need to get B and D 22:25:49 when I ask for A 22:25:55 for example 22:25:58 knightlain: perhaps you should learn Scheme? 22:26:14 I am learning scheme 22:26:19 but I can only use map and apply 22:26:21 knightlain: here, read 50 pages to learn Scheme: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-2.html 22:27:05 I know 22:27:16 but I have a doubt in using conditions with map and apply 22:27:17 Then why don't you use assoc? 22:27:49 *ijp* smells a homework question 22:28:04 ijp: yes! 22:28:11 rudybot: (map car (cdr (assoc 'A '((A (B 2) (D 10)) (B (C 9) (E 5)))))) 22:28:11 pjb: ; Value: (B D) 22:28:34 it is a homework question :( 22:28:36 but still 22:28:46 I have done the rest of the problems myself 22:28:51 just this is an issue for me 22:29:11 knightlain: otherwise, using tests should pose no problem: 22:29:13 mark_weaver: If you want that to be the case, make a list of numerics-related differences between R5 and R6. 22:29:28 jcowan: MIT/GNU scheme, at least, does not support infinities, signed zeroes, or nans, so it doesn't really count. 22:29:34 mark_weaver: Right. 22:29:39 (let ((results '())) (map (lambda (x) (if (predicate? x) (set! results (cons x results)))) list) results) 22:30:08 But it's bad to use map in this case, because it conses a new lists for nothing. 22:30:09 jake__ [~jake@63.249.57.43] has joined #scheme 22:31:24 Thank you a lot 22:31:28 I know 22:31:38 but our teacher said us to do so 22:32:31 jcowan: I did make such a list, as I was the one who revamped Guile's numerics to follow R6RS (in most cases). I'm glad to say that the R7RS has so far been excellent in this regard (I'm _very_ pleased with the R7RS overall). The only bits I'm concerned about are the potential removal of the nice division operators and this 'eqv?' thing. 22:33:12 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.198.35] has joined #scheme 22:33:49 Only once have I posted to scheme-reports, but my post never made it through moderation, which didn't encourage me to try again. 22:35:37 *wingo* trusts mark_weaver in all matters numeric, fwiw 22:35:47 also 22:35:50 thanks wingo :) 22:35:50 knightlain: a trick you can do, since you don't have filter 22:36:03 is to map a predicate that returns a list of one element on success, and an empty list on failure 22:36:13 then concatenate 22:36:21 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-106-178.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:36:21 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 22:36:22 :O 22:36:31 how do I map predicates 22:36:34 I know to use predicates 22:36:39 same way you map any other procedure 22:36:51 rudydoy, (eval (= 1 3)) 22:36:59 rudybot, (eval (= 1 3)) 22:37:00 knightlain: your sandbox is ready 22:37:00 knightlain: ; Value: #f 22:37:07 mark_weaver: wrt scheme-reports, you should try agan if you can; though if you don't succeed, you're in good company, as oleg doesn't make it through either (!) 22:37:16 rudybot: eval (define (my-filter f l) (apply append (map (lambda (x) (if (f x) (list x) '()))))) 22:37:16 ijp: your sandbox is ready 22:37:17 ijp: Done. 22:37:28 rudybot: eval (my-filter even? '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)) 22:37:28 ijp: error: procedure map: no clause matching 1 argument: # 22:37:43 *ijp* swore he'd stop writing code on the fly in IRC 22:37:52 wingo: heh, yeah, I noticed that. 22:38:06 rudybot: eval (define (my-filter f l) (apply append (map (lambda (x) (if (f x) (list x) '())) l))) 22:38:06 ijp: Done. 22:38:09 rudybot: eval (my-filter even? '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)) 22:38:09 ijp: ; Value: (0 2 4 6 8 10) 22:38:11 better 22:38:24 mark_weaver: Can you send me that list or a pointer to it? 22:38:36 knightlain: do you see how that can help you? 22:38:47 I'm also a contributor (with commit rights) to the Maxima project, fwiw. 22:38:47 :O 22:39:30 this is a pretty old trick, called "replacing failure by a list of successes" 22:42:26 :O thanks 22:42:27 jcowan: I didn't archive the list. It was a TODO list that I worked through and then discarded. However, I did make a list of numerical issues of an early R7RS draft. I still have that list. I never got around to posting it, and noticed later that most all of the issues had already been fixed. 22:42:32 now I will try to make it more specific 22:42:41 it is supposed it should delete a node 22:42:45 for example 22:42:48 I ask for c 22:42:51 -!- jake__ [~jake@63.249.57.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:42:55 it gives me back the list without c 22:43:49 *mark_weaver* looks to see if anything on this list remains to be addressed. 22:44:18 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-97-29.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:45:15 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 22:45:19 mark_weaver: Arrrgh! 22:45:54 Well, if you could reconstruct your TODO even approximately (perhaps from commit comments?) that would be very useful. 22:45:58 jcowan: I guess this list is a reasonable approximation of the key numerics changes between R5 and R6 though, since I suspect the early R7 draft I looked at was fairly close the R5 at that point (on the subject of numerics at least) 22:46:21 mmm, send it to me then: cowan@ccil.org 22:46:32 jcowan: okay 22:58:13 jcowan: are you primarily interested in this list to ensure that remaining R7 numerics issues are addressed, or is there a compelling need to include all relevant differences between R5 and R6, even where R7 has already been fixed to match R6? 23:00:14 jcowan: I'm willing to put significant effort into reconstructing this list, if it would be helpful, but to avoid unnecessary work, I'd like to understand what it's needed for. 23:01:15 thanks :D 23:01:20 I finished my homework 23:01:37 I modified the filter to specifically delete the node 23:02:36 mark_weaver: I'd say both, but the former is more important. We do have a list of differences between R6-base and R7, and the more complete that is the better, but it doesn't give rise to substantive tickets. 23:02:41 s/important/urgent 23:02:52 -!- antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: yes leaving] 23:23:22 hopfrog [~bill@76.73.221.195] has joined #scheme 23:23:41 -!- jhemann [~Jason@adsl-99-31-15-148.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:26:46 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@176.14.94.92] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:58 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:36:14 -!- gejr [~Geir@unaffiliated/gejr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:37:17 gejr [~Geir@unaffiliated/gejr] has joined #scheme 23:38:21 jhemann [~Jason@99.31.15.148] has joined #scheme 23:46:44 fzzbt [~jahman@melkinpaasi.cs.helsinki.fi] has joined #scheme 23:47:00 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-234-240.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:49:20 amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-97-29.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 23:50:47 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-143-252.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 23:52:00 -!- bitonic [~Francesco@93-40-81-234.ip37.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:52:38 bitonic [~Francesco@93-40-81-234.ip37.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 23:55:27 -!- n00b4lyfe [~n00b4lyfe@unaffiliated/tasmania] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:59:17 n00b4lyfe [~n00b4lyfe@unaffiliated/tasmania] has joined #scheme