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-!- nalaginrut [~nalaginru@64.69.46.141] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:57:30 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:58:01 nalaginrut [~nalaginru@64.69.46.141] has joined #scheme 01:59:13 -!- nalaginrut [~nalaginru@64.69.46.141] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:00:11 -!- futilius [~will@64.134.224.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:02:32 nalaginrut [~nalaginru@14.153.222.200] has joined #scheme 02:03:12 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:07:28 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #scheme 02:13:24 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@5add3a82.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:20:16 klutometis: I'm hard at work improving my incubot clone. 02:27:13 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:27:19 leo2007 [~leo@111.194.105.37] has joined #scheme 02:31:02 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #scheme 02:32:04 asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE1.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 02:33:42 -!- cswords [~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:34:15 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:37:47 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:40:52 -!- masm [~masm@bl17-197-94.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:46:50 offby1: would you teach me to write a _basic_ scheme bot? 02:47:05 lcc: What do you need to know? 02:47:11 lcc: Also, you should read rudybot's source code. 02:47:20 lcc: chicken has an irc extension that might be interesting to you. 02:47:22 cky: where can I fetch his src? 02:47:35 lcc: http://github.com/offby1/rudybot/ 02:47:39 cool 02:48:57 qu1j0t3: where is it? 02:49:52 http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/irc 02:50:01 um yeah 02:50:03 beat me 02:52:39 neat. I'll see if I, with my knowledge base, can make sense of it. then I guess I can ask questions here. I do assume that .rkt is the same as scheme, but does it have any differences? 02:55:17 lcc: .rkt files usually use Racket-specific extensions. :-) 02:59:13 ok 02:59:22 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:04:50 sarahbot, ping? 03:04:59 *gnomon* sighs 03:05:17 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 03:06:36 Hi, gnomon! 03:10:10 -!- jake__ [~jake@63.249.57.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:21:05 -!- nalaginrut [~nalaginru@14.153.222.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:23:54 -!- GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@117.31.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:34:08 nalaginrut [~nalaginru@14.153.222.200] has joined #scheme 03:40:37 madmuppet006 [~panzer@122-62-124-247.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 03:42:32 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:42:45 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 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lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 08:15:39 namoamitabuddha [~namoamita@114.94.241.148] has joined #scheme 08:17:06 pumpkin [~copumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 08:17:10 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:17:14 -!- pumpkin [~copumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 08:17:14 pumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 08:17:47 Has anybody ever drawn the environment structure of Y-combinator described in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-point_combinator ? 08:21:34 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 08:25:48 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:25:51 albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 08:25:52 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:25:52 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 08:28:04 HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82b98f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 08:38:42 -!- daedric [~daedric@2a01:e0b:1000:21:baac:6fff:fe99:7ada] has quit [Quit: Bye] 08:39:53 -!- namoamitabuddha [~namoamita@114.94.241.148] has left #scheme 08:42:29 daedric [~daedric@2a01:e0b:1000:21:baac:6fff:fe99:7ada] has joined #scheme 08:42:38 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #scheme 08:53:08 forcer [~forcer@hmbg-4d06bc24.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 08:59:55 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 09:01:40 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82b98f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 09:46:43 oneirophren [oneirophre@91.196.91.40] has joined #scheme 09:48:15 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:50:44 I am trying to write a function which prints out a series of values from the function (1 - x^2) .. I can write a function that puts out the y values but trying to put out both I have this http://pastebin.com/C4RkQYXT .. any hints appreciated 09:53:51 madmuppet006, huh 09:53:59 That is kinf of convoluted to do that. 09:54:06 madmuppet006, is this homework? 09:55:39 not homework trying to learn scheme .. 09:56:48 trying to follow issacs newtons footsteps with modern technology .. 09:57:33 madmuppet006, ahhh 09:57:34 Ehhh 09:58:01 I thought that using scheme would be easier than trying to use a c language 09:58:12 It is 09:59:26 rudybot (define (display-each f . xs) (apply for-each (compose display f) xs)) 09:59:28 I beleive it is 09:59:34 rudybot, (define (display-each f . xs) (apply for-each (compose display f) xs)) 09:59:34 Lajla: your sandbox is ready 09:59:34 Lajla: Done. 09:59:38 Well, like that 10:00:09 rudybot, (define (f x) (- 1 (* x x))) 10:00:09 Lajla: Done. 10:00:26 rudybot (display-each f '(0 1 2 3 4)) 10:00:32 rudybot, (display-each f '(0 1 2 3 4)) 10:00:32 Lajla: ; stdout: "10-3-8-15" 10:00:43 Ehhh 10:00:55 That's not correct is it? 10:01:00 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 10:01:01 no 10:01:48 apart from zero all the x numbers should result in negative numbers for y 10:02:01 ohhh 10:02:07 No, newline 10:02:44 sorry after 1 .. 10:04:17 rudybot, (define (display-line . xs) (apply display xs) (newline)) 10:04:17 Lajla: Done. 10:04:31 rudybot, (define (display-each f . xs) (apply for-each (compose display-line f) xs)) 10:04:32 Lajla: Done. 10:04:49 rudybot, (display-each f '(0 1 2 3 4))) 10:04:49 Lajla: rudybot (define (display-each f . xs) (apply for-each (compose display f) xs)) 10:05:05 rudybot, (display-each f '(0 1 2 3 4)) 10:05:05 Lajla: ; stdout: "1\n0\n-3\n-8\n-15\n" 10:05:08 There 10:05:11 That's more like it 10:05:16 madmuppet006, anyway 10:05:19 What I'm getting at 10:05:35 the for-each function is what you want to use to build it 10:05:40 Basically, see it like this 10:05:48 (for-each func list) 10:06:08 applies func to each argument of the list in the order the elements are in the list and returns an 'unspecified value' 10:06:14 So func is expected to be a side effect 10:06:56 My 'display-each' function in this case basically feeds a function to for-each that applies f first, and then applies display-line to the result 10:07:00 Which is the compose thing 10:07:12 I get what your saying .. Im trying to get it to work this end .. thanks for the help I appreciate it 10:07:43 Hmm 10:07:46 let me look at your code then 10:08:18 still working on it ..:p 10:09:36 Ah yeah 10:10:51 Hmm, it should work as far as I see it here 10:11:03 its hould make a list which alternates between the original values and the new ones. 10:14:15 I havent used the apply keyword before so Im looking into it now 10:20:16 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:21:09 madmuppet006, it's a function actually 10:21:31 (apply f xs) where xs is a list simply calls the function f with the elements of xs as its arguments 10:21:40 so (apply + (list 1 2 3)) would be 6 10:35:57 if I (apply f (car l)) where l is '(1 2 3 4) I get an error saying improper argument list 10:36:30 rostayob [~rostayob@5add3a82.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 10:37:09 keenbug [~daniel@p4FDB7186.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 10:37:26 I have tried http://pastebin.com/NqBgV75u 10:37:53 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:37:57 as well 10:38:38 EbiDK [~ebi@3008ds2-abc.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 10:41:07 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:41:42 -!- EbiDK [~ebi@3008ds2-abc.0.fullrate.dk] has left #scheme 10:45:59 madmuppet006, you need cdr 10:46:08 second argument of apply needs tob e a list 10:46:16 Well, last, technically 10:46:29 yeah I just noticed .. got it working with a one element list 10:46:58 when I tried (apply f '(car l)) I got an error 10:47:32 when I try (apply f '(number)) it works fine 10:49:20 That's because '(car l) is a list of the symbol car and the symbol l 10:49:27 ' means it's not evaluated 10:49:31 Try (list (car l)) 10:49:34 (apply f (car l)) I get an error improper argument list 10:49:51 Unless the first element of l is a list itself, you're not feeding a list to apply in that case 10:51:06 thanks that works got it working on my general function as well 10:51:58 There's no reason to not use (f (car l)) though 10:53:13 ijp [~user@host109-150-133-72.range109-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 10:53:24 :p that works too 10:57:11 -!- ijp [~user@host109-150-133-72.range109-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:57:28 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:58:06 ijp [~user@host109-150-133-72.range109-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 11:02:49 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 11:04:21 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 11:05:52 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 11:08:02 HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82b98f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 11:19:22 Lajla: I have a function which displays both the x and y values then prints a newline .. how would I put a gap between the x and y values so they are easy to read? 11:21:55 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:22:02 albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 11:22:02 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:22:02 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 11:25:43 display a " " 11:25:51 Or a #\space 11:27:25 http://pastebin.com/kSfK8WnW was how I did it .. any suggestions? 11:27:49 rudybot, (define (display-each-and-arg f . xs) (apply for-each (lambda ys (display ys) (display " -> ") (newline)) xs)) 11:27:49 Lajla: Done. 11:28:15 rudybot, (define (square x) (* x x)) 11:28:15 Lajla: Done. 11:28:42 rudybot, (display-each-and-arg square '(0 1 2 3 4)) 11:28:42 Lajla: ; stdout: "(0) -> \n(1) -> \n(2) -> \n(3) -> \n(4) -> \n" 11:28:58 Ehhh 11:28:59 Oh yeah 11:29:03 Of course 11:29:25 rudybot, (define (display-each-and-arg f . xs) (apply for-each (lambda ys (display ys) (display " -> ") (display (apply f ys)) (newline)) xs)) 11:29:25 Lajla: Done. 11:29:29 rudybot, (display-each-and-arg square '(0 1 2 3 4)) 11:29:29 Lajla: ; stdout: "(0) -> 0\n(1) -> 1\n(2) -> 4\n(3) -> 9\n(4) -> 16\n" 11:29:32 Eh voilla 11:29:49 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-13.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:29:56 madmuppet006, well, truth be told, I wouldn't have done it like that in the first place since it is extremely convoluted and bad practice 11:30:58 Lajla: fair comment .. Im learing so I have open ears .. 11:33:34 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-211-99.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 11:34:26 madmuppet006, http://pastebin.com/y5eMj03F 11:34:42 madmuppet006, well, it's pretty clear you're used to C like languages. =P 11:34:53 That's how short it can be with proper scheme style. 11:36:48 yeah I have .. I love using scheme though but so far I need to work on it 11:37:10 madmuppet006, for-each is basically your C style loop 11:37:21 say you have an array and you want to do something for each element int he array 11:37:26 That's what for-each does 11:37:43 with C you would write some counter function in your for loop but in scheme, lists have sentinals 11:37:53 so you can't really just grow over it, so you have a nice for-each function 11:38:33 cool thanks for the help .. definitely makiing me think .. which is good ..:p 11:38:54 samth [~samth@c-66-31-201-165.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:40:45 madmuppet006, http://pastebin.com/cqd2NMBC like that 11:40:51 madmuppet006, excellent 11:41:25 later 11:42:32 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@5add3a82.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:46:20 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 11:55:01 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:06:52 snizzo 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has joined #scheme 15:31:19 lcc: I'd be happy to answer questions, but I don't know how well I'd do at teaching. 15:35:36 rudybot, (define offby1 values) 15:35:36 Lajla: Done. 15:35:39 nalaginrut [~nalaginru@14.153.222.200] has joined #scheme 15:35:45 rudybot, (eq? offby1 (compose)) 15:35:46 Lajla: ; Value: #t 15:38:05 *offby1* taps his baton 15:40:13 woonie [~woonie@175.156.240.29] has joined #scheme 15:44:07 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82b98f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 15:44:38 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 15:48:54 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:50:10 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 15:52:15 -!- nalaginrut [~nalaginru@14.153.222.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:53:59 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:57:16 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:58:29 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@2.27.82.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:59:21 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:00:50 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 16:02:24 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 16:07:07 samth [~samth@c-66-31-201-165.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:21:23 jewel [~jewel@c-76-102-3-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:24:02 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 16:24:50 Lajla: You're like that kid who never gets tired of playing the same South Park or Beavis and Butthead episode over and over again. 16:27:30 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-148.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:28:00 LOL 16:29:03 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-148.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:29:36 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:36:35 cky, I disagree 16:36:43 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.135.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:37:01 Lajla: you're like that kid who disagrees 16:37:08 rudybot, am I like that kid who never gets tired of playing the same South Park or Beavis and Butthead episode over and over again? 16:37:08 Lajla: there was a spark in 'jurassic park' 16:41:12 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-69-143-121-232.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 16:41:22 rudybot: does it disappoint you that we still have unix, but haven't created dinosaurs? 16:41:22 ijp: i was disappoint 16:42:44 *ijp* consoles rudybot 16:44:19 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-148.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:45:59 Lajla: I bet you never get tired of singing "Never gonna give you up", either. :-P 16:46:05 dous_ [~dous@cm229.sigma67.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #scheme 16:47:14 ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 16:47:50 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:48:00 rostayob [~rostayob@2.27.82.59] has joined #scheme 16:50:52 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:57:14 cky, well, we're no strangers to love 16:57:19 You know the rules, and so do I. 16:59:22 klutometis : Prolog, and logic programming, isn't functional, right 17:00:42 klutometis : the declarative logic part is that you're able to reason logically about the program, e.g. replacing formulae with equivalent formulae, like commuting conjunctions and disjunctions, ditributing conjunction over disjunction, factoring conjunction out of disjunction, &c. 17:00:59 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.176] has joined #scheme 17:01:26 the mutation that's happening to implement logic variables and constraints is just an implementation detail (an optimization, if you like) 17:02:07 but, Prolog isn't a pure logic programming language, since it also has side-effects, as forcer noted 17:02:10 -!- dous_ is now known as dous 17:02:11 -!- dous [~dous@cm229.sigma67.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Changing host] 17:02:11 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #scheme 17:02:31 Mercury is a pure logic programming language (also having support for (pure) functional programming) 17:04:17 (so since Prolog isn't pure logical, it follows that you can't always use logical reasoning and equivalences to write, understand, maintain and refactor Prolog programs, the side-effects are often getting in the way -- in many cases though one can (practically) avoid them (just like in Scheme)) 17:04:17 -!- dous is now known as dous_ 17:05:38 finally, to get efficient programs written in a logic programming paradigm, you *also* need to have a grasp of the operational/procedural semantics (just like in Scheme) 17:07:28 I'd go as far as to say that the latter is true for *any* programming paradigm (due to them in the end running on this silly von neumann machine). Though the value of "efficient" can change greatly. <.< 17:09:18 *ski* nods 17:10:03 futilius [~will@99-174-253-193.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:10:57 CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 17:11:44 (oh, i suppose i should also say that some people use "declarative programming" to mean "logic/relational programming". i prefer the former to include both the latter and functional programming (and maybe more)) 17:12:59 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081BB36.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:14:39 I don't think I've seen declarative being used to mean logic but not functional. Is that common? 17:14:56 somewhat common, at least 17:15:03 futilius: Used to be the standard in our university at least 17:15:09 thought declarative = not imperative 17:15:14 *ski* has seen people coming into ##prolog using it in that sense several times 17:15:15 They also used "applicative" for Scheme 17:15:23 interesting 17:15:59 forcer: I've seen that used more generally for functional, e.g. texts that deal with SML. 17:16:21 Yeah. 17:16:25 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 17:16:30 the way I usually hear it, declarative seems to mean a style of programming where you don't specify the exact means/tactic but rather describe the result you want 17:16:36 They introduced Scheme as a functional programming language, and halfway through used SET! 17:16:36 futilius: declarative is not the only non-imperative, though. :) 17:16:48 (programming in SQL would probably also be included in declarative programming -- though SQL unfortunately has hideous syntax, and doesn't faithfully adher to the relational database model) 17:16:54 which, depending on what you want and how you go about it, can apply more or less relatively to functional/logic/OO 17:17:02 futilius: yes. examples that I use include SQL, regexp, make, shell pipelines, and such. 17:17:21 futilius: also, pattern matching tends to this area 17:17:33 qu1j0t3: yes, I think my second definition is closer, but I meant !imperative in that sense 17:17:34 futilius: à la Erlang, Scala, SML 17:18:36 I mean, there are definitely times when you think hmm how can I tell prolog (or haskell) calculate this thing 17:18:45 I think of "declarative" as "saying what I want", as opposed to "saying how I want it done"; I'm not sure "imperative" is a good word for the latter. But the whole terminology is not well defined anyhow. 17:19:15 I think imperative is okay. although you could say that "computer, give me this result, I don't care how you do it" is an imperative :) 17:19:41 Well, telling the computer which *result* you want is not a very interesting computational problem. 17:19:45 futilius : the way i interpret "declarative" is that you don't have to focus on the operational details (the how) all the time, concentrating what is to be expressed, having available useful reasoning and refacting principles -- a symptom of this is that the constructs are composable in a sensible way 17:19:52 (Except for natural language people I guess) 17:20:05 forcer: set! isn't so bad; it's the people using set-c[ad]r! you need to watch out for 17:20:10 forcer: agreed 17:20:13 forcer: agreed re def'n 17:20:26 futilius: well, that's an imperative command, but not an imperative program ) 17:20:28 :) 17:20:41 qu1j0t3: exactly my point :) 17:20:47 that's an English problem. 17:20:48 Could I get an example for a non-imperative command? 17:21:00 forcer: sure, grep | sort etc 17:21:13 forcer: as opposed to writing the equivalent C. 17:21:36 don't know about that. I thought we just established that "imperative" and "command" are pretty much the same in english 17:21:40 (non-local examples of `set!' can be similar to uses of `set-c[ad]r!') 17:21:40 futilius: no. 17:21:43 futilius: we did not. 17:21:50 I was trying to be funny. If I wanted to be nitpicked, I'd note that the above then was not a command. But meh. Terminology. :-) 17:21:50 futilius: check forcer's definition above. 17:22:08 futilius: 'imperative paradigm' != imperative in the grammar sense. (a command) 17:22:13 that's the CS definition 17:22:21 right. the other isn't wanted here. 17:22:28 this ain't #english 17:22:34 it isn't ? 17:22:42 so you can have a non-imperative command where "imperative" and "command" are in CS-speak, but you can't have a non-imperative command in english 17:22:45 ski: in this conversation it's unproductively confusing. 17:22:47 *ski* sometimes gets the feeling that it is 17:22:49 qu1j0t3: you are right 17:22:51 There actually *is* an ##english 17:22:53 Awesome :-) 17:23:15 so basically what I'm saying is that I agree with forcer (?) that the terminology is not great 17:23:17 ski: well, there's a connection of course, but let's try to stick to one sense 17:23:43 ski: "Do this; do that" = string of imperative commands of course. 17:24:27 ski: leading to a program in the imperative paradigm which is specified operationally instead of abstractly 17:24:33 *ski* isn't exactly sure what qu1j0t3 is arguing about, atm 17:24:36 also the other point I was getting at is that there is some interpretation involved in decided if a program looks like "do this; do that" or describing an outcome 17:24:42 it's not 100% clear-cut 17:24:47 ski: easy: " ski | it isn't ? " 17:24:57 ski: or did you mean "it isn't #english" ? 17:25:09 qu1j0t3 : sorry, that line was meant as (hhos) joke 17:25:13 ski: oh nm :) 17:25:27 *qu1j0t3* shoudln't be here anyway, has to go to $OFFICE to fill out timesheets. :< 17:25:30 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:25:39 aye, good sir 17:25:45 later, qu1j0t3 17:26:09 hi 17:26:19 futilius: yeah, the line gets clearer when you get to constructs such as non-deterministic solving in Scheme. 17:26:54 *ski* stares intently at adu 17:26:59 qu1j0t: yep. and the fact that "do this; do that" is really "give me this outcome; give me that outcome" 17:27:07 even if the outcome is small and low-level like a sum 17:27:11 :D 17:27:33 futilius: yes, you could be operationally specifying steps that are internally not specified imperatively, but i think at some point you have to restrict it to "the top level program" 17:28:13 futilius: to illustrate, let's say you implemetned a non-deterministic library in C, or say a topological sort in C (make), then the problem specification at top level is no longer imperative. 17:28:16 which, again, is not a well-defined notion. at least, with modules sometimes you would like to pretend that it isnt 17:28:22 futilius: that's *why* you did it. to up-level abstraction. 17:28:24 not trying to be difficult, I promise :) 17:28:46 futilius: no point in calling it imperative since you just did a lot of work to avoid *having* to describe your solution in deail. 17:28:46 qu1j0t3: I completely agree that that process happens 17:29:02 HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82b98f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 17:29:26 qu1j0t3 : .. and avoid having to *reason* about it in detail 17:29:30 ski: yes. 17:30:30 it's a great wedding cake of layered abstractions as we all know... it's easier to talk about the top one ... and if you have a problem to solve, you usually only have patience for the top one. 17:30:46 aye 17:30:59 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:31:03 so then it doesn't really make much sense to say that "declarative means prolog" imho 17:31:03 that's when you'd prefer not having leaky abstractions 17:31:05 cake? can I have some? 17:31:23 *ski* hands adu some banana cake 17:31:23 futilius: there are many varieties of declarative, so no, that wouldn't make sense. but prolog can be declarative. 17:31:36 *adu* *nawm* *nawm* *nawm* 17:31:45 prolog is.. more intent on enabling declarative programming than C 17:31:52 futilius: so can many languages, especially pattern matched ones, or where high level libraries exist like non-determinism 17:31:58 futilius : i didn't claim it made much sense, i only claimed apparently some people do use the term that way 17:32:17 ski: yes, that's where I came in :) 17:32:18 futilius: absolutely. It's hard to make C declarative. you have to build the abstractions yourself 17:33:07 futilius: but once you've done that, your top level solution might be simpler 17:33:14 right 17:33:25 futilius: it's analogous to the common exercise of writing Prolog in Scheme. 17:33:43 you always have the choice to abstract things in a turing-complete language. say if you wrote a parser combinator library in C. now you've added non-determinism 17:33:51 yes. 17:33:56 I'm writing Scheme in Go, is that a common exercise? 17:34:03 *qu1j0t3* vanishes 17:34:13 no, but it sounds like a pretty cool exercise 17:34:41 the more I write, the more I realize the less I need to write 17:34:56 it's a beautiful thing 17:35:19 futilius : except it's harder if you bulding-blocks you have to do with isn't very composable, e.g supposedly orthogonal features interact in surprising ways, as well as if the language values you want to use aren't first-class 17:35:51 ski: right. C makes it harder than Scheme to do this. you'd have a much easier time writing that parser combinator library in scheme 17:35:55 Icon is a language with some interesting non-imperative abstractions. 17:36:02 qu1j0t3: <3 Icon 17:36:06 :):) 17:36:17 also you totally didn't vanish, dude 17:36:23 futilius : so, it's not just about the level of the primitives you start with, it's also about how well-designed they are 17:36:23 those timesheets aren't going to fill themselves in 17:36:40 i know... i'm bad at vanishing. let's see if this works.. futilius 17:36:41 ski: absolutely. some languages are more declarative than others 17:36:45 *qu1j0t3* **** vanishes **** 17:36:49 "It is imperative to learn functional programming." 17:36:55 ski: Go is very well designed 17:37:09 *ski* hasn't looked at Go 17:37:41 it's a compiled, garbage collected, OOP-ish language 17:37:53 except there are no classes and no objects 17:38:20 it uses the var.method thing as a namespace.. wouldn't really say it's OO beyond that 17:38:36 as namespaces 17:38:42 futilius: it is, it's OOP done right 17:39:00 GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@117.31.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 17:39:03 who there. something something smalltalk 17:39:06 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-148.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:39:06 whoa* 17:39:21 lol 17:39:43 Self. 17:39:50 rudybot, (eq? values (compose)) 17:39:50 Lajla: ; Value: #t 17:39:54 *forcer* waves the minority flag. 17:40:00 well, self is more smalltalk than smalltalk so my point still stands :) 17:40:20 :-) 17:42:10 actually I often think smalltalk is also more functional than say scheme 17:42:22 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 17:42:39 for example, church-encoded booleans 17:42:39 what I like about Go is orthogonality, or separation of concerns 17:43:27 Doesn't make it more functional 17:43:36 Besides, you can define that 17:43:40 makes it more lambda-calculusy 17:43:48 Not at all 17:43:53 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #scheme 17:44:03 There are man ways to handle truth values in lambda calculu because here is no primitive support 17:44:07 this is just the most common one 17:44:19 adu : so i suppose it satisfies "The type completeness principle: No operatin should be *arbitrarily* restricted in the types of the values involved." then 17:44:26 yeah but "if" is not one of them 17:44:36 it could be built on one, though 17:45:26 I guess what I'm really sensing is that church-encoded booleans in smalltalk make it more OO, not more functional. it means you can create your own notion of booleans 17:45:33 not the one built into IF 17:45:48 however, it does also feel more like lambda calculus 17:46:10 ski: depends, it's strictly typed, so you would be talking about a function with the type 'interface{}' for that to be true 17:47:54 adu : well, this one refers e.g. how in Algol-60 one can write a conditional integer expression `if leapyear then 29 else 28', but not a conditional string expression `if female then `Ms' else `Mr'' 17:48:24 i.e. it's about not having these kinds of arbitrary restrictions 17:48:37 adu : also, does it satisfy "The qualification principle: It is possible to include a block in any syntactic class, provided that the phrases of that class specify some kind of computation." ? 17:49:06 does that last one mean "has function literals"? 17:49:19 no, this is talking about `let' 17:49:30 what is "syntactic class"? 17:49:37 ah 17:49:38 realitygrill [~realitygr@wsip-174-70-27-140.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 17:49:57 in C, one has `{int x; ...}' block in the syntactic class of commands 17:50:06 but there is no corresponding form for expressions 17:50:37 I hate that 17:50:45 how about "The abstraction principle: It is possible to construct abstractions over any syntactic class, provided only that the phrases of that class specify some kind of computation." ? 17:50:51 or "The correspondence principle: For each form of declaration there exists a corresponding parameter mechanism, and *vice versa*." ? 17:51:05 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@wsip-174-70-27-140.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:51:16 the abstraction one is about having functions for abstracting expressiona, and procedures for abstracting commands 17:51:27 what is a phrase? 17:52:17 (one can also have selector abstractions for abstracting l-values/locations, views for abstracting patterns, module functors for abstracting modules, relations/predicates for abstracting logic formulae (goals)) 17:52:57 -!- jewel [~jewel@c-76-102-3-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:52:59 what is a module functor? 17:53:00 (well, s/modules/declarations/ though it's more or less the same) 17:53:35 a module functor is a module that takes another module as argument. the MLs (SML,O'Caml at least) have this, as does Scheme48 17:53:41 adu: you know what modules are? it's like function that takes modules and makes modules out of them 17:53:44 a phrase in the syntactic class of expressions is just an expression, a phrase in the syntactic class of commands is just a command, &c. 17:53:48 ski: o like in OCaml 17:53:55 adu: like in scheme48 17:54:05 check what channel you are in, please :) 17:54:07 never used scheme48 17:54:19 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 17:54:24 I've mainly stuck with racket and guile 17:55:02 well, if you ever feel like using some functors :) 17:56:34 so you could have something like R7RS division libraries reduced to a single library with 3 functions: rounding/ rounding-quotient rounding-remainder and have a parameterized import that takes a rounding library? 17:57:36 the correspondence principle is about not having it like in e.g. Pascal, where you can have a `var I : T' parameter to a procedure, which aliases the actual parameter variable in the call, but there is no way to alias a variable in a block like this 17:57:55 (because a `var I : T' declaration in a block creates a new variable, instead of aliasing an old one) 17:58:45 (fyi, the above principles are taken from David A. Watt's book "Programming Language Concepts and Paradigms" -- i find them quite nice) 17:59:18 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82b98f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 18:02:20 -!- woonie [~woonie@175.156.240.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:05:30 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 18:16:12 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16:27 ski: is that same author a teacher? 18:17:15 realitygrill [~realitygr@wsip-174-70-27-140.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 18:19:59 rageous1 [~Adium@65-128-200-54.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 18:20:30 -!- rageous [~Adium@65-128-200-54.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:20:40 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 18:26:30 ski: I have a hack for doing higher-order modules in guile, but it needs work 18:27:08 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:29:01 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:29:01 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:29:01 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 18:29:45 tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.3.230] has joined #scheme 18:31:31 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:35:50 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36:19 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 18:42:14 adu : possibly, i dunno 18:42:18 ijp : i see 18:42:41 dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has joined #scheme 18:50:19 hi Schemers. 18:51:30 what is the use of box/unbox on gambit-c for example? The manual says that box is object, but I dont understand its use 18:51:35 dude whats up 18:51:46 you can set the content of it 18:51:52 and other references to the box update too 18:51:58 it's basically a cons cell without a CDR 18:52:04 or a one element vector 18:52:27 or a pointer in C... 18:52:40 or a closure 18:53:00 tomodo: I catch you mutating cons cells, and it'll be a months detention 18:53:03 it can be lots of thing I see 18:53:04 or two closures (lambda () x) (lambda (new) (set! x new)) 18:53:13 you've got no proof :D 18:54:09 tcleval: calling a function with a box is like passing by name in tcl, where on the other side you do an upvar ;) 18:54:36 the requirement for proof was been suspended when #scheme was placed under martial law 18:58:16 HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82b98f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 19:00:59 futilius: now I understand, this way the variable will not be evaluated when passed to a procedure 19:08:11 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:14:50 lol @ijp detention 19:15:11 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@2.27.82.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:15:12 tcleval: the value will be evaluated when you create the box 19:16:44 ijp: I looked around, and now I think I got it. Boxed objects are used to pass by reference. It kind of breaks the "scheme way" of programming but it can be handy. 19:33:02 arcfide [~arcfide@fl-67-233-16-36.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 19:37:17 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 19:38:48 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:43:12 ah somethiing pleasing to klutometis http://designspiration.net/image/20896/ 19:46:10 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:54:35 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 19:55:16 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 20:09:08 -!- keenbug [~daniel@p4FDB7186.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:13:25 pdponze [~pierre@37.0.41.146] has joined #scheme 20:14:03 -!- Lajla is now known as nDie_Jaedolf 20:18:20 william_ [~william@123.108.223.115] has joined #scheme 20:22:10 -!- xwl [~william@123.108.223.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:26:38 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:27:10 -!- nDie_Jaedolf is now known as Na3 20:27:46 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable034.210-160-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:29:58 -!- fgudin [~fgudin@odin.sdf-eu.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:30:52 rudybot: hows life in the botosphere? 20:30:52 ijp: Hows emms? Im serrously feeling that soon ill have no reason to leave emacs ... ever! 20:31:22 fgudin [~fgudin@odin.sdf-eu.org] has joined #scheme 20:31:39 rudybot: it's okay, but I'd prefer it if video was actually played in an emacs buffer 20:31:39 ijp: hey cool. well we have an irc #lispgames , the mailing list is not much used though 20:33:56 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable034.210-160-184.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:33:56 -!- pdponze [~pierre@37.0.41.146] has left #scheme 20:40:56 ijp` [~user@host86-182-156-7.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:41:38 -!- ijp [~user@host86-171-128-253.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:41:40 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 20:48:16 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 20:56:56 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:27 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@wsip-174-70-27-140.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 21:11:40 rudybot, what do you thnk about the fact that values eq?s (compose)? 21:11:40 Na3: how do i detect an invalid escape character sequence in my .emacs file? 21:12:38 rudybot: more importantly, what do you think that (s)he keeps bringing it up? 21:12:38 ijp: That's what I want to be when I grow up! 21:13:42 poor bot. Doesn't realise he will be 'kill'ed within the year 21:15:07 sharkbird [~sharkbird@67-220-6-139.usiwireless.com] has joined #scheme 21:25:15 -!- copumpkin is now known as Soon 21:25:30 -!- Soon is now known as copumpkin 21:27:35 -!- madmuppet006 [~panzer@122-62-124-247.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:30:11 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-169-252.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 21:31:42 antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 21:32:17 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82b98f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:33:22 rostayob [~rostayob@5add3a82.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 21:37:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-211-99.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:52 -!- cky is now known as rudybot2 21:39:59 *rudybot2* thinks Na3 has a one-tracked mind!! 21:40:01 -!- rudybot2 is now known as cky 21:40:05 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable034.210-160-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:46:25 rudybot: what do you make of this new pretender? 21:46:26 ijp: so, to sum up, it's the same, it's actually less troublesome to do it system wide 21:47:20 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 21:59:34 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 22:05:39 -!- dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-elsbxskhlpiokfyf] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 22:08:10 -!- antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:44 hopfrog [~bill@76.73.221.195] has joined #scheme 22:24:50 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 22:30:29 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable034.210-160-184.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:32:32 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@5add3a82.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:32:56 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 22:34:46 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081BB36.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:37:43 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:37:48 -!- rageous1 is now known as rageous 22:50:18 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 22:59:42 kk`` [~kk@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 23:01:25 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:05:46 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 23:06:14 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 23:08:08 -!- kk`` is now known as kk` 23:08:36 -!- kk` [~kk@77.107.164.131] has quit [Changing host] 23:08:36 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 23:09:14 ijp: See, rudybot thinks I'm the same, and less troublesome. :-D 23:15:26 -!- futilius [~will@99-174-253-193.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:23:52 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:39:18 rostayob [~rostayob@host217-42-33-230.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 23:44:37 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 23:57:12 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]