00:00:52 -!- zzach1 is now known as zzach 00:02:12 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:04:33 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:47 Do any libraries exist which support function advice (= decorators executed before or after a function). For Chicken scheme, an extension is published at http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/advice . What about other schemes or a global solution? 00:06:46 tiny clos has before/after methods I think 00:12:58 -!- dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yboupkbynmkqhhma] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:13:04 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mjljlrrgvazvngyg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:13:58 -!- masm [~masm@bl17-205-178.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:18:24 -!- Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:21:22 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-143-157.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:22:57 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-20.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:29:50 dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-elsbxskhlpiokfyf] has joined #scheme 00:34:36 bfig [~b_fin_g@r190-135-29-72.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 00:36:57 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@176.14.94.92] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:14 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wifqamlgqlnoakno] has joined #scheme 00:40:46 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:40:57 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:53:01 -!- mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:01:50 kampsun [~kasutaja@adsl22546.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 01:02:32 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:02:56 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:03:12 -!- githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:18 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-148-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:15:00 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 01:16:14 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:20:21 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:21:48 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@host86-157-212-200.range86-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 01:25:06 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-79-249.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 01:25:38 xwl_ [user@nat/nokia/x-adzfbowaoixzqdkr] has joined #scheme 01:26:58 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:32:08 -!- kampsun [~kasutaja@adsl22546.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:32:38 -!- ijp [~user@host86-151-78-130.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:33:13 ijp [~user@host86-151-78-130.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 01:33:51 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 01:34:53 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:35:54 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 01:40:32 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:41:33 -!- hopfrog [~bill@76.73.221.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:42:07 aelath [~aelath@host-68-169-158-136.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 01:45:10 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 01:47:38 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:54:03 jcowan [~John@cpe-66-108-19-185.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:54:45 joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has joined #scheme 01:54:48 hoi 01:56:13 ioh 01:56:24 *ski* . o O ( "moi mukulat" ) 01:58:09 *jcowan* grins. 01:59:36 What's new and exciting? 01:59:45 Umm, division? 01:59:52 In particular, what is flooring division good for? 02:00:21 Well, everyone seems to have it, so it must be good for something! 02:01:27 People have flooring modulo (including R5RS), but division, not so much. 02:01:35 s/modulo/remainder 02:02:15 I'm using your use case for ceiling, and rounding, Euclidean, and centered are fairly easy to specify use cases for. 02:02:26 Truncation really doesn't need defending, crappy though it is. 02:03:08 What's centred? Is that the R6RS's div0/mod0 thing? 02:03:20 Yes. 02:03:30 And what are it and rounding good for? 02:03:56 (By `rounding', you mean round-to-nearest/ties-to-even, right?) 02:04:21 Yes, or at least the first half of it. There are various alternatives to ties-to-even: IEEE defaults to it. 02:04:26 -!- confab [~win7@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:05:07 Rounding is good when you are aggregating measurements, because bias tends to cancel out rather than accumulating. 02:05:22 Yeah, but when do you want to do that with integer arithmetic? 02:06:03 zzach: http://pleiad.cl/research/lascheme 02:06:05 When you are digitizing continuous values, for example. 02:11:33 What's the use for centred division? 02:13:11 Bignums. 02:13:25 Elaborate? 02:13:30 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-25-16.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:15:53 http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-77/mail-archive/msg00505.html 02:17:41 i once found myself writing (mod0 x (* 2 pi)) 02:18:05 arrix [~arrix@61.135.165.162] has joined #scheme 02:20:38 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@ip98-169-80-239.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:20:39 I've been pointed that message many times in the past... Does there exist a single practical use of div0/mod0 outside a particular algorithm in bignum arithmetic that uses the fixnum-specialized div0/mod0 with a fixed modulus? 02:21:09 mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:23:11 In other words, does it have any useful existence outside a fixed-modulus, fixnum-specific utility routine in a particular bignum library? 02:24:07 -!- zzach [~zzach@dslb-084-061-109-183.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 02:27:34 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-201-82.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:28:09 -!- futilius [~will@ip72-220-161-181.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:28:42 I'm rather out of my depth with numbers, really. 02:29:03 weinholt: What was the context? 02:29:58 There is a proposal to cut back the current 6 * 3 operators to 2 * 3, namely truncate and floor (as the most conservative extension to R5RS). 02:30:08 "current" = "draft 6 of R7RS-small" 02:30:32 If you want minimal, euclidean should stay; all the rest are inconsequential. 02:32:03 We can't ditch the IEEE/R4RS/R5RS set unless we can show they are actually harmful. 02:32:42 So far nothing has met that criterion. 02:32:43 Well, then flooring division is good for satisfying that goal. 02:32:48 *jcowan* nods. 02:33:06 jcowan, i had an angle in radians and it needed centering. it was part of a short-lived attempt at implementing the trigonometric functions without using floating point 02:33:22 weinholt: Thanks. 02:35:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.51.39] has joined #scheme 02:35:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.51.39] has quit [Changing host] 02:35:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 02:35:55 -!- mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:36:08 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 02:40:34 githogori [~githogori@c-50-131-15-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:41:34 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:46:52 speaking of bignums, does anyone know a bignum library that actually uses the fx*/carry etc procedures from r6rs? 02:47:57 the implementations of fx*/carry that i've seen have always been written in terms of bignums, not the other way around 02:50:32 FatsDT [~fatsdt@173-12-189-115-oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 02:50:57 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 02:52:41 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:53:05 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 02:53:20 weinholt: no but I was thinking of writing one 02:54:44 confab [~confab@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:54:57 adu, let me know if you do, i'd like to see it 02:55:54 weinholt: I'm also writing a scheme 02:56:36 so far I've gotten the lexer, printer, and define, set!, +, *, car, cdr, and quote working 02:57:38 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:57:46 but so far, all there is is fixnums, so I'm at a point where I need to start thinking about bignums 02:57:50 the reason i'm interested is because i tried using fx*/carry etc with the algorithms in St Denis' BigNum Math, and i just could not manage to get it working 02:58:06 the language I'm implementing it in has bignums, but that feels wrong to me 02:58:38 oh I've written tons of arbitrary precision libs 02:58:59 sounds promising! 02:59:11 mostly using naive algorithms 02:59:28 I never really talking anything other than textbook multiplication 02:59:37 s/talking/tackled/ 03:00:07 even that seemed impossible with fx*/carry 03:00:25 but, I was thinking of using int512 as the unit for the limbs 03:01:28 *adu* looks at r6rs again 03:04:10 iirc i concluded that it would have worked if the /carry procedures were defined in terms of div-and-mod instead of div0-and-mod0 03:04:33 weinholt: I think the theory is that s0 is the ones place and s1 is the "ten"s place 03:05:37 -!- ben_m [~Ben@chello080108155179.8.12.vie.surfer.at] has left #scheme 03:06:15 weinholt: so you're saying, if fx*/carry is builtin, how do you define *? 03:06:37 yeah 03:06:52 well, say you have two numbers, WLOG 03:07:04 A and B 03:07:34 A = #(a2 a1 a0) where each of those are fixnums 03:07:35 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 03:07:40 B = #(b2 b1 b0) 03:07:43 my problem was with negative results from fx*/carry and that different arguments would give the same results, iirc 03:08:28 well obviously 03:08:59 you have 3 theoretical inputs and 1 theoretical output (separated into 2 limbs, "one"s and "ten"s) 03:09:20 such a function cannot possible by isomorphic 03:09:28 possibly* 03:09:40 sure 03:09:51 so what's the issue with "same results"? 03:10:04 i can't quite remember the details, sorry 03:10:25 well, mod0 and div0 are in the standard, but I would never use those 03:11:04 I would use euclidean div mod 03:11:16 yeah, i would agree 03:11:27 I wrote an entire blog entry about this: http://straymindcough.blogspot.com/2012/02/survey-of-divmod.html 03:11:38 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-79-249.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:11:42 mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:11:51 how would you handle the negative results from fx*/carry? 03:12:42 I wouldn't, I would make integers a separate datatype, so essentially a pair (sign, magnitude) 03:13:17 I was going to write this scheme in C, but I ended up writing it in Go 03:13:32 I suppose the same logic applies 03:13:50 right... so, writing a bignum library with fx*/carry? 03:14:10 I was going to have two or more fields for every number: (sign, data) 03:14:42 and because the sign would have to take up at least a byte anyways (you couldn't store it in the fixnum data, that would make the algorithms harder) 03:14:53 i actually wrote a scheme in Go. it was a project for a course 03:14:58 it would make sense to encode number type in that same byte 03:15:16 so bit 0 would be sign, bit 1 would be floating point, bit 2 would be complex, etc 03:15:38 weinholt: wow can I go to your school 03:16:02 you probably can, but i think it costs money 03:16:12 weinholt: you don't know? 03:16:20 wow can I have your parents? 03:16:25 international students have to pay tuition 03:16:33 i'm studying at chalmers.se 03:17:12 you should've applied a year ago. there was no tuition then 03:17:47 leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.186] has joined #scheme 03:18:46 adu, let me know if you discover anything about fx*/carry wrt bignum libraries 03:18:47 so back to fx*/carry, what's your question 03:18:53 oh, ok 03:19:39 so a bignum is a magnitude and a number of digits. if i use fx*/carry it seems i will get negative digits 03:19:50 sorry, a sign and a number of digits 03:20:30 normally you would only have positive digits, right? 03:21:27 weinholt: div0 and mod0 may be negative 03:21:32 yes 03:21:34 but that's not true of euclidean division 03:21:41 agreed 03:21:53 that's why I would use euclidean division instead 03:22:23 yep. i gave up on fx*/carry and used that instead 03:22:47 however, if the thing you're dividing by is 2^w, then it doesn't matter because you get the same bitstring 03:23:24 right, it seems like it should work 03:23:25 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 03:23:27 because fixnums are basically modular arithmetic, mod 2^w 03:23:41 but I'm going to try it with euc divmod 03:24:57 i'm thinking Clinger changed fx*/carry to be in terms of div0 merely to make the likes of me go crazy trying to make it work 03:26:44 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 03:28:34 Clinger? 03:29:05 steering commitee 03:29:11 ? 03:31:29 adu, http://www.r6rs.org/r6rs-editors/2006-April/001157.html 03:32:20 weinholt: have you seen srfi-94? 03:32:42 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has left #scheme 03:32:56 adu, no 03:33:33 http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-4/srfi-4.html 03:33:50 crap I forgot the 9 03:34:00 twice 03:34:18 adu, i think i remember what my problem with fx+/carry was 03:34:21 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-230-115.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 03:36:20 adu, consider the typical algorithm for bignum addition. you're working with two digits and a carry. let's say you want to use the whole fixnum range, so you use fx+/carry 03:36:57 let's say the two digits are (greatest-fixnum) and carry is zero: (fx+/carry (greatest-fixnum) (greatest-fixnum) 0) returns -2 and 1 03:37:37 can i just put -2 in the digit of the result? 03:38:07 define "whole fixnum range"? 03:38:22 do you mean signed or unsigned? 03:38:33 whole implies unsigned, fixnum implies signed 03:39:05 well, the signed range 03:39:44 it's actually quite late here, i should go to bed 03:39:47 -!- erjiang [~erjiang@adsl-108-85-2-151.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:39:48 thanks adu 03:40:01 ok 03:40:21 weinholt: the answer is yes 03:41:53 adu, it may be that it worked as expected until i tried to use fx*/carry. i should have written down what the problem was... 03:41:56 good night 03:42:10 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 03:43:31 o you're right 03:45:08 there is a difference between signed multiply and unsigned multiply 03:47:20 I'm think I'm going to blog about that 03:53:01 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-25-16.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:56:01 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:01:42 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:02:13 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:02:50 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 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[~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-172.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:05:52 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:10:19 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #scheme 06:12:41 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-172.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 06:12:55 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:15:15 iffsid [~user@c-98-222-193-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:18:06 -!- iffsid [~user@c-98-222-193-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:18:50 iffsid [~user@c-98-222-193-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:30:59 -!- kudkudyak [~user@94.72.145.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:38:05 futilius [~will@99-174-253-193.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:50:34 -!- arrix [~arrix@61.135.165.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:51:29 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-228-27.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 06:52:29 arrix [~arrix@61.135.165.162] has joined #scheme 06:54:22 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 07:04:04 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:05:33 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #scheme 07:07:15 so I'm about to order the reasoned schemer and the seasoned schemer, and I want to be sure that there aren't new editions on the way. I had read somewhere that a new version of reasoned/seasoned scheme is coming but I'm can't find the link. does anyone know about it? 07:08:14 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-26-213.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:08:38 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:09:55 woonie2 [~woonie@nusnet-228-27.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 07:12:12 tom_i_ [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:12:15 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-228-27.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:16:43 crypto_ [~z0d@q.notresp.com] has joined #scheme 07:16:58 fbs_ [fbs@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-dtabgxyqescrxghj] has joined #scheme 07:17:09 yamanu_ [~yamanu@cpe-212-18-40-64.static.amis.net] has joined #scheme 07:21:32 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-26-213.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:21:41 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:21:41 -!- fbs [fbs@fsf/member/fbs] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:21:42 -!- yamanu [~yamanu@cpe-212-18-40-64.static.amis.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:21:42 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:21:56 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:25:57 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-234-173.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:27:35 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:27:52 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #scheme 07:29:47 -!- forcer [~forcer@hmbg-5f77cdbe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:30:03 -!- X-Scale` [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:33:05 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #scheme 07:33:05 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:33:06 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:34:08 -!- futilius [~will@99-174-253-193.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:34:59 -!- tom_i_ [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:40:05 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-whlxncxmojmqximv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:41:41 -!- woonie2 [~woonie@nusnet-228-27.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:45:53 -!- virl [~virl__@85-127-158-77.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:52:51 so I'm about to order the reasoned schemer and the seasoned schemer, and I want to be sure that there aren't new editions on the way. I had read somewhere that a new version of reasoned/seasoned scheme is coming but I'm can't find the link. does anyone know about it? 07:56:35 djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 08:01:20 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:19:43 torrent them 08:19:55 or jsut read sicp and scheme alng by dyvbig 08:25:55 republican_devil, all hail America 08:25:58 the greatest nation on earth 08:26:00 under God. 08:26:08 Only God decides when life ends 08:26:15 All hail capital punishment 08:26:31 the Dutch kill their elder, 10% of all deaths in the Netherlands are elders being killed to save money. 08:27:23 \o/ 08:28:56 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-44-180.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:29:10 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-77-133.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 08:29:21 I once met a republican who believed that story, it was very tempting not to just troll her but in the interest of global world politics I decided to set her straight. 08:29:35 hehe 08:29:40 She actually was pretty receptive to it and admitted that it was just a conception she had and that in hindsight it was a bit silly. 08:32:19 bas_ [~bas@89.184.179.185] has joined #scheme 08:32:24 -!- bas_ is now known as Skola 08:34:06 albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 08:34:06 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:34:06 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 08:34:41 ASau [~user@128-68-14-203.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 08:38:28 antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 08:38:45 Well hello 08:39:06 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 08:43:49 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:45:30 GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@117.31.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 08:45:48 tom_i [~thomasing@cmc.beaming.biz] has joined #scheme 08:48:24 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #scheme 08:49:34 I made my own definition of member?, could you guys check if it's correct? 08:49:36 https://pastee.org/hgqxk 08:51:10 antithesis: you seem to be missing a few parens 08:51:28 My bad, here's the right one https://pastee.org/dq6g2 08:51:52 did you try that code on any Scheme? 08:52:04 it should not work :) still missing a lot of parentheses. 08:52:36 look up how COND works (and note that the way you put the closing parentheses is very much un-Schemely) 08:54:27 also member? should probably use equal? rather than eq? 08:55:40 What's wrong with my way of closing parentheses? :p 08:56:16 antithesis, cond doesn't work like that 08:56:38 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:56:48 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@cmc.beaming.biz] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 08:57:15 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:57:20 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #scheme 08:57:27 I haven't even gotten around installing DrScheme, probably a good time now 08:57:33 antithesis, cond words like (cond (foo bar) (baz sperm-whale) (else DAT-ARSE)) 08:57:38 If foo is true ite valuates to bar 08:57:43 if baz is true to sperm-whale 08:57:48 Otherwise to dat arse 08:58:11 *amoe* wishes for a bowl of petunias 08:58:13 So like, you want (cond ((equal? (car lat)) #t) ... 08:58:18 Also, you want the null? test up front 09:00:10 -!- sawgij [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:00:41 I already asked it 2 times now but couldn't get an answer, I'm about to order the reasoned schemer and the seasoned schemer, and I want to be sure that there aren't new editions on the way. I had read somewhere that a new version of reasoned/seasoned scheme is coming but I'm can't find the link. does anyone know about it? 09:01:40 osa1, I guess no one knows. 09:01:42 but hey 09:02:05 Let's talk about quantum subspace vortex propulsion systems. 09:02:09 Like they have in the films. 09:04:10 tom_i [~thomasing@cmc.beaming.biz] has joined #scheme 09:04:10 osa1: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lindseykuper/3023329529/ <-- reasoned schemer, 2nd edition, but not out yet apparently 09:05:42 Commander amoe recalibrate the unstable qualithium array to fire a condensed tachyon stream though the deflector array. 09:05:52 Let us start the quantum subspace vortex and get out of here 09:05:53 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:05:54 Engage, warp 8 09:06:03 meh, i say we nuke the site from orbit 09:06:18 No 09:06:24 I'm the captain 09:06:31 I say what we do and I get the alien chicks each week. 09:06:34 Engage. 09:11:08 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:13:23 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 09:13:33 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:18:31 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 09:18:39 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #scheme 09:18:44 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Client Quit] 09:21:58 republican_devi1 [~g@pool-108-13-218-184.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:22:28 hey 09:22:32 USA is no 1 09:22:35 I agree 09:22:45 and capitalism has amde th epoor rich 09:22:48 I agree 09:22:55 USA no1 standard living too 09:22:57 oh yeah!! 09:23:08 eric naggum is critkal of scheme eh? 09:24:07 -!- republican_devil [~g@pool-108-13-218-184.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:25:07 Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 09:26:27 forcer [~forcer@hmbg-5f763068.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 09:30:08 lol 09:31:44 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-172.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:33:19 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-85.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 09:37:08 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:26 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 09:40:19 -!- kvda [~kvda@124-169-155-127.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: -___-] 09:40:41 kvda [~kvda@124-169-155-127.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 09:43:12 -!- republican_devi1 [~g@pool-108-13-218-184.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:45:55 keenbug [~daniel@p4FE3888E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 09:52:51 -!- kvda [~kvda@124-169-155-127.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: -___-] 09:53:07 -!- keenbug [~daniel@p4FE3888E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:53:49 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:56:14 cswords_ [~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:57:15 SpacePoet [~StarPoet@ppp-171-96-19-212.revip8.asianet.co.th] has joined #scheme 09:57:29 do you have to quote to write a negative number? 09:58:07 SpacePoet, what? 09:58:13 You mean (quote -3) ? 09:58:18 You can just write -3 as far as I know 09:59:35 -!- cswords [~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:59:43 it doesn't highlight in my editor 09:59:46 so i thought i might not 10:07:24 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-234-173.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:07:40 kvda [~kvda@124-169-155-127.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 10:12:06 leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-37.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:13:16 rostayob [~rostayob@host86-157-212-200.range86-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 10:22:28 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #scheme 10:23:02 -!- arrix [~arrix@61.135.165.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:24:09 how do i display a variable? 10:28:34 SpacePoet, you mean write its value out? 10:29:02 In general just (display x) 10:29:11 (write x) does something different 10:29:27 Like (write "string") writes "string" with quotes, display would do it without quotes 10:32:41 arrix [~arrix@61.135.165.162] has joined #scheme 10:37:50 -!- zedstar_ is now known as zedstar 10:38:03 -!- zedstar [~john@zedstar.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:38:03 zedstar [~john@fsf/member/zedstar] has joined #scheme 10:43:49 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-37.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:48:22 masm [~masm@bl17-197-94.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:50:36 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-234-173.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:51:55 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@host86-157-212-200.range86-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 10:53:20 -!- Nisstyre 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quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:30:42 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 13:30:42 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 13:31:23 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 13:36:32 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:38:16 Riastradh, "Binfordsnotch"? 13:38:37 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 13:40:00 Do you poll hourly or something? 13:40:52 I see e'rr'ything. 13:41:07 I guess you probably saw the klunky first draft, too. 13:41:30 Actually no, that appears to have slipped my net like a particularly wily salamander 13:41:33 . 13:41:49 (not that the second draft is particularly unklunky, being the product of a half-baked thought at two in the morning tossed in the microwave to revitalize its lukewarmness) 13:42:34 "Kludgious" is particularly well coined. 13:44:08 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 13:46:40 Anyway, it's a reference to the Kludgy Binford Editor. 13:47:56 http://www.avanthar.com/~healyzh/_info_/lisp.edit ? 13:48:09 I've never before heard of that particular editor. 13:48:14 Yep. 13:53:10 gnomon: was that stray "." a salamander? o_O 13:53:17 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-25-16.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 13:53:18 *foof* squishes it -> * 13:54:19 Instant salamander burger. 13:54:39 Noooo! You've squished Commander Coriander Salamander and her Singlehander Bellylander! 13:56:36 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:56:44 *foof* casually shoves the evidence under the sofa with his foot 13:57:36 _schulte_ [~eschulte@ip98-169-80-239.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 13:58:05 arrix [~arrix@61.49.112.185] has joined #scheme 13:59:46 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 13:59:54 It was not a stray "."! It just went walkabout because it missed its cue at the end of the prior line. 13:59:56 -!- snizzo [~Claudio@iglu.cc.uniud.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:04 And now you have stomplesmashed my punctuation! 14:00:53 -!- snizzo_ [~Claudio@158.110.41.101] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:48 I have a spare octothorpe isp-w 14:02:09 s/isp-w/you can have: # 14:04:05 *gnomon* gnaws on it a little 14:04:10 Thanks! 14:05:29 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 14:09:29 -!- samth_ [~samth@c-66-31-201-165.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:20:44 drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has joined #scheme 14:21:02 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:21:14 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:25:00 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 14:26:43 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has 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[~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 16:35:10 ooh, a kiwi 16:36:08 *offby1* nominates the word "kludgulous" 16:38:23 offby1: What about Kiwis? :-) 16:39:11 just haven't seen gnomon in a while; I seem to recall he's a fellow Noo Zeelander 16:39:22 kvda [~kvda@124-169-155-127.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 16:39:27 Orly? Wow. 16:39:28 See, y'all exotic to this Murriken 16:40:04 His reverse DNS seems to suggest Canada, but maybe that's just a temporary thing. :-) 16:40:39 offby1: Speaking of exotic, Bull City Burger & Brewery is doing exotic meat month this month in celebration of its first birthday. :-) 16:40:49 Today's exotic meat is Rocky Mountain oyster. 16:41:15 And I plan to make a special trip there to try it. :-) 16:41:34 *shudder* 16:41:35 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:41:47 I'm sure if I ate those without knowing I'd like 'em. But that's not really the point, is it 16:42:02 Hehehehe. 16:42:16 Yesterday's exotic meat was kangaroo. Maybe that's tamer? ;-) 16:42:32 -!- arrix [~arrix@61.49.112.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:43:40 rudybot, recalibrate the quadeinsteinium subflux matrix and enter the quantum interlace pulsar! 16:43:41 Lajla: Commander amoe recalibrate the unstable qualithium array to fire a condensed tachyon stream though the deflector array. 16:43:52 snizzo [~Claudio@iglu.cc.uniud.it] has joined #scheme 16:44:01 Smarty bot 16:44:21 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:44:52 Did you guys know by the way that in Star Trek the scriptwriters just put [tech] for those phrases and one guy who's really good at making those names up then comes along afterwards and finds a good name to replace [tech] with? 16:45:52 *cky* serves Lajla some Rocky Mountain [tech] 16:46:34 technobabble 16:47:24 Treknobabble 16:49:11 aelath [~aelath@2002:44a9:9e88:1234:c8c:9378:b613:eb97] has joined #scheme 16:50:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:53:49 -!- aelath [~aelath@2002:44a9:9e88:1234:c8c:9378:b613:eb97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:54:26 Lajla: yes, it's obvious Hollywood is just a bunch of crooks. 16:54:54 pjb, hey, Star Trek is real science yo 16:55:05 It's completely scientifically accurate and based on real physical theories! 16:55:12 :-) 16:55:45 I once met someone who was so intimately involved in this Star Trek vs Star Wars feud that he refused to admit that hyperdive is faster than warp drive. 16:56:20 Hyperdrive crosses the galaxy in like hours, warp drive apparently takes 70 years for that with an intrepid class which had the fastest warp drive at its launch 16:57:15 -!- snizzo [~Claudio@iglu.cc.uniud.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:13 -!- kvda [~kvda@124-169-155-127.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: x___x] 16:58:25 oh man. Nerds. 16:58:38 they know it's all made up shit right? 16:59:59 Probably, but pride man, pride. 16:59:59 Lajla: you've obviously never heard of Warp13 17:00:10 Can't let the star wars people have their faster hypothetical propulsion system 17:00:16 Isn't warp 10 infinite speed or something? 17:00:25 AFTER WHICH YOU EVOLVE INTO AN AMPHIBIAN 17:00:30 That episode was so awesome 17:00:38 because afterwards the Doctor could cure the effects 17:00:40 Lajla: that's true 17:00:49 What stops them then from just going with it and curing themselves once they are in the alpha quadrant 17:01:10 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:01:14 Voyager often got a bit toooo rediculous with its technological innovations 17:01:19 Transphasic torpedos 17:01:22 kills a Borg Cube 17:01:51 Or the last episode, when Chakotay is suddenly with Seven 17:01:55 out of no-where 17:01:58 that was too silly. 17:02:02 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:02:07 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:02:12 scifi-101: put people in impossible situation with no solution, invent technology that makes it possible 17:02:57 it makes for great drama 17:03:26 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:03:43 Voyager especially 17:03:57 I'm honestly not a Trekkie despite for some reason aving seen every episode of every series out of sheer boredom 17:04:02 DS9 was the only one I really enjoyed 17:04:21 Less deus ex technologia, more characters 17:04:33 Lajla: hey, I resemble that remark 17:04:48 I concur with you then. 17:05:02 THe first few episodes of DS9 where a bit gimicky though 17:05:08 and some of the comic relief was just too absurd to still be real 17:05:11 with some of the Quark stuff 17:05:26 That whole Ferengi state felt too much like a parody to still be true. 17:05:44 Like, there was one episode where Quark actually performed a doubel take. 17:06:08 Which was controversial because it was too cartoonish, and the director just said 'Ferengi are cartoon characters for some reason living in an otherwise serious space opera' 17:06:12 He was kind of rightr 17:06:12 aelath [~aelath@2002:44a9:9e88:1234:a594:b7f3:a1e3:e2aa] has joined #scheme 17:07:54 Lajla: according to http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Warp_factor warp 14 is the highest recorded (in what I consider cannon) 17:11:04 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@dyn1216-23.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:12:39 so, um. where does Scheme fit into the Star Trek canon? 17:13:04 dilithium crystals are code for 'lambdas' ? 17:14:49 mmc1 [~michal@178-85-63-71.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 17:15:52 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:16:55 17:16:59 aelath_ [~aelath@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 17:18:23 -!- aelath [~aelath@2002:44a9:9e88:1234:a594:b7f3:a1e3:e2aa] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:18:23 -!- aelath_ is now known as aelath 17:18:24 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-68-41-30-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:20:02 asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE1.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 17:21:18 -!- Lajla [~Lajla@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:10e1:2f66:ae33:eb94] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:21:28 githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has joined #scheme 17:22:38 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@cmc.beaming.biz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:23:08 Lajla [~Lajla@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:10e1:2f66:ae33:eb94] has joined #scheme 17:24:50 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:25:25 rostayob [~rostayob@dyn1219-141.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 17:25:38 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081EDAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:27:36 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:27:39 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:27:40 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:32:57 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:42:51 -!- futilius [~will@64.134.231.0] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:48:10 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:48:32 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@dyn1219-141.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:49:40 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #scheme 17:50:14 ijp [~user@host86-151-78-130.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:55:58 cyphase_ [~cyphase@adsl-99-109-42-165.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:56:17 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:57:48 djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 18:12:08 Lajjla [~Lajla@ip51cc146b.speed.planet.nl] has joined #scheme 18:12:54 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 18:13:10 kudkudyak [~user@94.72.147.59] has joined #scheme 18:16:21 -!- Lajla [~Lajla@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:10e1:2f66:ae33:eb94] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:16:22 -!- Lajjla is now known as Lajla 18:20:32 Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has joined #scheme 18:27:29 -!- pranq [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:31:03 -!- cyphase_ is now known as cyphase 18:31:16 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@adsl-99-109-42-165.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:31:16 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #scheme 18:34:29 -!- qu1j0t3 is now known as qvhDuclu6oym13Mp 18:35:12 pranq [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 18:36:58 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 18:37:17 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:38:39 snizzo [~Claudio@host37-139-dynamic.180-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 18:39:57 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.252.10] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.94.1] 18:41:38 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 18:42:16 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:43:45 djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 18:46:04 I was trying to figure out: "What the fuck is YAML, and why don't people use S-expressions as a configuration mechanism?" I realize now that YAML is some sort of Ruby-induced enthusiasm. 18:46:47 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4dbeca15.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:46:56 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4d067bfc.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 18:47:15 because parentheses 18:47:56 too little syntax is disconcerting to some 18:48:09 klutometis: NIH! 18:49:01 ijp: Riastradh had this theory that parenthetiphobia was related to eyespots; I think it's related to the fear of castration. 18:49:12 klutometis: 'hysterical baggage' 18:49:27 klutometis: i am sure you'll be able to link hysteria and castration somehow. 18:50:27 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:51:17 -!- qvhDuclu6oym13Mp is now known as qu1j0t3 18:51:47 -!- woonie [~woonie@137.132.230.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:51:55 qu1j0t3: fo a moment I thought you mixed up your username and password. 18:52:10 for* 18:52:11 mario-goulart: oh sh---- 18:52:31 seem this would never have happened if you'd used 'hunter2' 18:52:39 qu1j0t3: "NIH" as in, the knights thereof; or not invented here? 18:52:44 ijp: good idea! easy to remember. and if i forget, i can ask you! 18:52:59 klutometis: Not Invented Here, Near Here, Or Even in Our Recognisable Manner. 18:53:17 qu1j0t3: http://bash.org/?244321 18:53:18 klutometis: Ergo We Shall Do Our Own Thing. 18:53:37 ijp: ah yes, an oldie but a goodie. :) 18:53:37 qu1j0t3: Can you make the same argument for Lispers that cling to big-S? 18:53:58 klutometis: when your hammer is a parenthesis, everything starts to look like an atom 18:54:44 klutometis: i dunno, it's THursday, i'm tired, and it's not raining cups of espresso. indoors. 18:56:32 qu1j0t3: Heh; no, you're right: everyone has their totems and taboos. 18:56:55 Ours are the animals S, lambda, &c. 18:57:25 Maybe eta. 18:57:54 What the hell: throw in beta, too; and maybe beta-eta. 18:58:34 Damn, can't forget about alpha-equivalence. 18:58:46 Shit: the Hellenic namespace is pretty well claimed. 18:59:10 klutometis: :) 19:00:01 Lambda calculus even claimed iota, kappa, omega and upsilon. Who knew? 19:00:33 Damn those greeks and their useful symbols. 19:01:27 I forgot where it was 19:01:35 /part 19:01:37 -!- kudkudyak [~user@94.72.147.59] has left #scheme 19:01:38 but I once saw some mathematical text which started using cyrillic symbols 19:01:48 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 19:01:52 On the argument that all latin and greek symbols were already consumed 19:02:10 I thought hebrew was next in line 19:02:11 Lajla: Someone tried to kick off aleph, but Hebrew didn't stick; for some reason. 19:02:30 ijp: Jinx 19:02:42 *fds* knows of the beth function 19:02:53 *ijp* mimes unconvincingly 19:03:04 klutometis, aleph is still going strong as far as I know 19:03:14 Cardinal numbers and all that good stuff 19:04:03 Fraktur 19:04:04 fds: True; deleth and gimel are there, too, apparently. (Or at least included in amssymb.) 19:04:08 qu1j0t3: Ah, good call. 19:04:45 klutometis: Either invokes Lutheranic protest, or The Old Ones, not sure which. 19:04:55 -!- bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-52-154-218.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:06:10 They should just switch over to Chinese. That'll solve the problems for at least a generation or two 19:06:37 and instant obfuscation 19:06:44 *klutometis* will nominate his next nominable mathematical function in Tengwar. 19:06:49 ijp: you may be prescient 19:07:11 not any worse than having many different meanings for the same symbol 19:09:37 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:10:05 rudybot: and now if only I could remember the difference between the  and  functions 19:10:05 ijp: you need to compile with -R and the path to the library if you don't want to set ldlibrary path 19:10:10 ijp: Jesus; Yitizi Zidian defines 106,230 characters, apparently. That must be the equivalent of widening time_t to 64 bits. 19:11:11 as a side effect it would also increase the font size the average person uses 19:11:58 qu1j0t3: It's pretty good, by the way, that you're going length-sixteen; why not throw in punctuation, though? Or do you actually memorize these things? 19:13:33 jcowan [~John@cpe-66-108-19-185.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:14:02 klutometis: that's a hell of a lot, at least 70,000 more than I'd have thought 19:15:04 ijp: Wikipedia has this ominous aside: "Chinese characters are theoretically an open set and anyone can create new characters as they see fit." 19:15:19 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 19:15:58 Huh. I had no idea anyone worried about the topological properties of character sets. 19:16:18 It's technically true, but obviously constrained by what people can actually stand to write 19:17:48 klutometis: the number of chinese ideograms in actual use is declining, apparently, as the more obscure ones die along with their users. a bit like human languages, but in one umbrella language? 19:18:27 qu1j0t3: How bizarre! 19:18:27 qu1j0t3: is that really true? I thought that computerised input was allowing people to use older ones, though with new meanings 19:18:54 IIRC Japanese added an additional 100 or so to those required to be taught in schools recently 19:19:32 2010: The list was revised on 30 November to include an additional 196 characters and remove 5 characters (, , , , and ), for a total of 2,136. 19:19:42 so sayeth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C5%8Dy%C5%8D_kanji 19:19:55 Also, there are people who concoct new ones for species of fish only recently identified, etc. I'm not sure how much effect that work has. 19:22:02 futilius [~will@user-0c9h82b.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 19:23:48 kvda [~kvda@124-169-155-127.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 19:24:32 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #scheme 19:28:05 ijp: the problem is that the knowledge of what they mean is disappearing. 19:28:50 antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 19:37:30 -!- kvda [~kvda@124-169-155-127.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: x___x] 19:44:44 dzhus [~sphinx@176.14.94.92] has joined #scheme 19:44:54 chupish_ [182c5af4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.44.90.244] has joined #scheme 19:51:55 qu1j0t3: Do you know anything about the problem of looking things up in a Chinese dictionary? Is there some phonetic ordering or other; or ordering by radical? 19:51:59 A vast number of the current Unicode set are the equivalent of typos: they have only been used once, if that. 19:52:18 jcowan: Hapax legomenon 19:52:18 Standardly they are ordered by radical and stroke, but some are now ordered by pinyin. 19:52:21 Quite. 19:52:42 More problematic is that dictionaries are ordered by the first character in the word, then by the second, etc. 19:52:53 some? dictionaries typically have both kinds of indexes 19:53:33 oh, ordering. you are right 19:53:35 In very recent years, yes. 19:54:03 klutometis, well, if you don't know a word you often don't know how to pronounce it 19:54:05 So dictionaries act as if the unit was the zi4 rather than the word. 19:54:07 Is the point with Chinese 19:55:15 klutometis: no, i don't know such stuff 19:55:25 Lajla: Indeed; I won't go so far as to say that "Chinese dictionary" sounds like an oxymoron, but there does seem to be some impedence mismatch. 19:55:38 isn't it mainly oral? 19:55:42 per McLuhan 19:55:49 hence the 'dying out' part 19:55:52 jcowan: most definitely. chinese is pretty character-centered. we would typically call an english word a zi4 (character) rather than a ci2 (word) 19:56:17 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:57:19 futilius: Have you seen Mark Rosenfelder's paper on yingzi? Very neat idea, though of course not realistic. 19:57:31 http://www.zompist.com/yingzi/yingzi.htm 19:58:16 It's the best intro I know for anglophones on how characters work. 19:58:17 Lajla: The tension, I take it, is ordering logograms phonogrammatically; and coming up with a second logogrammatic index. 19:58:25 Just so. 19:58:39 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:58:59 klutometis, English works fine with it 19:59:03 this is pretty interesting 19:59:10 Which is, strictly speaking, written in a lographic script. 19:59:25 Strictly speaking, nothing is written in a logographic script except Blissymbolics. 19:59:48 And even there, most logograms have discernible internal structure. 20:00:12 rostayob [~rostayob@host86-157-212-200.range86-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:00:18 the problem is that in chinese character = ideogram = word = meaning 20:00:21 English has phonetic rules that cover about 80-85% of its words. Complex and annoying rules, yes, but rules. 20:00:23 you don't have that in english 20:00:27 so the effect would not be the same 20:00:45 jcowan, no it doesn't 20:01:04 I in fact daresay there is not a single English word wich abides to any phonetic regularity in English 20:01:13 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:01:34 If you know how to pronounce a word there's no way to infer how to spell it, same in reverse. 20:02:00 Lajla: That's a little absolute; surely you don't mean that English is a chaotic system composed of millions of exceptions. 20:02:15 I mean 20:02:20 I am BARBEQUOR 20:02:26 Barbecuer of planets 20:02:41 I wield the power sausmic. 20:03:54 Lajla, that's silly. 20:04:10 futilius: The average Mandarin word has a little more than two zi4. 20:04:21 No it's not, I am Barbequor 20:04:24 Can't touch this. 20:04:43 *ijp* slaps Lajla upside the head 20:04:54 That may or may not be silly. Claiming that English spelling has no order at all is. 20:05:06 Ahhh, that 20:05:10 I stand by my claim still. 20:05:24 jcowan: well, that's kind of for convenience (too many homophones if you just use single-character words). most all characters form words by themselves 20:05:36 if you read classical/formal chinese you see a lot more single-character words 20:05:43 rudybot: well, it is important for a captain to go down with the ship 20:05:44 ijp: Go on 20:06:33 what confuses me most about chinese,etc. is how they manage without spaces 20:06:35 jcowan: mandarin avoids single-character words with redundancy, but that grew out of colloquialism 20:07:02 mm, avoids..through redundancy 20:07:34 The collapse of distinctions in the spoken language made it necessary to use longer words, yes. 20:07:41 futilius: is it just a question of habit or are there rules for it? 20:08:32 Sure there are (implicit) rules, as for any language. If you pronounced Classical Chinese as written using modern pronunciation, you would understand nothing. 20:08:35 ijp: it's not systematic. most words are just two characters. and most of the time one of the characters by itself also means what the two-char word means 20:08:37 the other is padding 20:09:23 like [x]zi3 is a common pattern where zi3 is pure padding 20:09:57 However you cannot leave it out in normal speech; it is part of the word, even if it no longer carries separate meaning of its own. 20:10:22 jcowan: right. well, you could but it would sound oddly formal (and risk ambiguities because of homophones) 20:10:42 An analogy is the suffix -ate in English verbs taken from Latin. There is no reason why we say separate and prepare instead of *separe and *preparate, but the starred forms would be un-English. 20:11:32 not quite so archaic, but yeah 20:12:23 ijp: There is a famous Classical Chinese poem "The Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den", where every character is pronounced "shi" (in different tones). It can only be understood when read in characters. 20:12:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-Eating_Poet_in_the_Stone_Den 20:13:09 jcowan: btw I enjoy your linguistics-related blog posts. even though I skim most of them :) 20:13:15 I didn't think the homophone problem was that bad :) 20:13:17 Thanks. 20:14:00 ijp: It isn't normally: spoken Mandarin is no more ambiguous than spoken English, even if we do pronounce "vein" and "vain" the same nowadays. Zhao Yuanren was proving a point. 20:14:26 well quite 20:15:09 similar too that famous "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo." sentence 20:15:26 the great thing about that one is that it works with any number of buffalo 20:15:42 X-Scale` [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #scheme 20:15:49 -!- gf3 is now known as GoogleAndroid 20:15:56 -!- GoogleAndroid is now known as gf3 20:16:08 yes, it'd terrible if one was left out 20:16:15 virl [~virl__@85-127-158-77.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #scheme 20:18:04 Well, you have to have at least two. 20:18:54 you mean for decorum? 20:19:13 like the lions at the gates of the ancient assyrian palaces 20:19:25 a brace of buffalo 20:19:27 The yingzi article gives another analogy: if we wrote "language" with two yingzi, one for "lang" and the other for "gwidge", neither would be useful for any other word in the language. 20:19:29 lolcow [~lolcow@196-215-35-228.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:19:40 linguistically though, one may say, "Buffalo." 20:19:49 a command, you see 20:19:52 So they would have to be entered in yingzi dictionaries separately, both meaning "language", even though no one would ever say just "lang" or "gwidge". 20:20:01 wingo: Point! 20:20:24 wingo: I'd be content with zero buffalo... 20:20:38 qu1j0t3: zero palaces as well i would imagine 20:20:42 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-179-90.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:20:46 the empty sentence. is that in the english grammar? 20:20:49 Oh, I wouldn't. They are crunchy and taste good with ketchup (at least if you like ketchup, which I don't) 20:21:21 I have eaten buffalo steaks, though. 20:21:28 hah wikipedia has "buffalo buffalo..." in first-order logic 20:21:35 As long as the buffalo stay out of the palace, there is nothing to worry about 20:22:17 Then there's the guy who goes into a Jewish deli for the first time, and orders the matzoh-ball soup. After eating it, he calls the waiter over: "This is really good. Tell me, what other parts of the matzoh do you eat?" 20:22:23 jcowan: it is an understandable lapse, as scheme discourages the imperative 20:22:37 *jcowan* giggles. 20:22:56 ijp: +1 20:23:04 reminds me of my friend who says [adjective]-ass [noun] as [adjective] ass-[noun] 20:23:16 hahaha 20:23:17 Yes. 20:23:24 what a big ass-clown 20:23:52 *jcowan* often lays big ass-farts. 20:24:08 that's bad ass 20:25:41 Supposedly, when Jackass first appeared on MTV, someone actually named Jack Ass sued them for trademark abuse, as he was a performer who used his name in his business. 20:28:24 -!- lolcow [~lolcow@196-215-35-228.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:34:22 -!- githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:48 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-143-186.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:35:27 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:36:13 and he did that without embarrASSment 20:38:02 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:40:13 Or maybe with. What's the odds as long as you're happy? 20:41:15 jcowan that system is nice and well, but what if you can't draw?! 20:41:31 Then you scribble. 20:41:40 *jcowan* has horrible handwriting in any script. 20:42:16 And how would you type? 20:43:01 Most people type Chinese using Pinyin romanization plus a menu that shows which character(s) you might have meant, then you pick one. 20:43:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-221-7.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:44:10 I always found it slightly impressive that they managed with mobiles 20:44:38 But.... what exactly are the advantages of that whole system? 20:44:49 Of Chinese characters? 20:44:55 jcowan: dream the dream of massive lawsuit settlements! 20:44:55 Or of pinyin typing? 20:45:31 Chinese characters 20:46:04 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:47:03 it's pretty 20:47:59 It's the way things have always been. 20:48:02 It's hassle 20:48:25 Also, total conversion to Pinyin won't work, because written Chinese often has short bursts of Classical Chinese in it. 20:48:32 and so is english spelling, but you get used to it 20:48:34 The higher the register of the text, the more Classical text. 20:48:58 It took ten years to make minor changes to German orthography, which was already pretty good, and only four countries involved. 20:49:03 it's really not much of a hassle 20:49:22 There must be fifty countries that use English officially, never mind the rest. Fixing the spelling would take another five hundred years. 20:50:23 China and Chinese culture are the world's largest, oldest, and most complicated organization short of the whole world. You don't change something like that easily. 20:50:51 jcowan: well, the communists could change the writing that easily. (ie. with force gulags). 20:51:09 jcowan: and also they did with the simplification 20:51:27 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #scheme 20:51:30 Simplified characters were mostly a virgin-field epidemic. Most of the forms had been around for centuries, and most of the people being taught were illiterate. 20:51:44 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet why don't we all just use that? 20:51:59 antithesis: chinese has many homophones 20:52:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-68-41-30-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 20:52:55 So modify the language to not have homophones 20:53:16 haha 20:53:30 Absurd. 20:53:40 while we're at it we'll convince everyone to stand on their hands to save on shoes 20:53:46 Why not just change the pronunciation of English to fit the spelling? Just rewind the tape to the 14th century. 20:54:19 It's less fun, but 2 generations later people will see wordplays as weird humor anyway 20:56:32 Yes, let's just teach French to everybody! 20:56:35 jcowan there is no definitive pronunciation to be out from spelling because English doesn't use IPA 20:56:55 antithesis: there's one. Just ask to any french speaker. 20:57:32 Well, French has fewer rule-free oddballs than English, but its rules are about as complicated. 20:57:59 There have been proposals to get rid of the oddballs, but francophones are as tenacious as anybody else. 20:58:10 "oignon" is the best known, I think. 20:59:00 And homophones themselves are absurd, abdominal even 20:59:03 *antithesis* does not like homophones 21:00:09 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-143-186.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:00:12 They're the inevitable result of mergers, and mergers (as well as splits) are always happening in English. 21:00:27 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-143-186.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:01:19 I think it's the Christian god's fault, with his babel 21:01:51 yea what was that about, totally harsh 21:02:05 you think that's bad, wait till you see how it ends 21:02:36 So yeah, make an IPA implementation of English or another fine language, make everyone use it, profit 21:02:57 "make everyone use it" <- there's your problem 21:03:32 True 21:04:03 jcowan: agreed, then Spanish. At least there's (at least in theory) a bijection between orthography and pronounciation in Spanish. 21:04:13 Mostly, yes. 21:04:30 jcowan: and Spanish is already gaining in the USA. 21:04:38 The proof can be seen by looking at you're keyboard: QWERTY 21:04:49 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:09 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 21:05:31 your** 21:06:42 That was a successful attempt to make people type more slowly so they wouldn't overrun the mechanism of early typewriters. 21:06:54 It's not really evidence of anything about English. 21:06:56 jcowan++ 21:07:01 Dvorak ftw. :-D 21:07:10 it's hard enough getting people to change programming languages 21:07:19 cky: Dvoracists unite! 21:07:28 :-D 21:08:30 Wrong: it was only designed to not have 'combos' next to each other, not to slow down 21:08:48 It's just not fast either 21:08:49 same thing in practice 21:09:03 antithesis: QWERTY is an accidental pessimum? Classic. 21:09:50 No, a *deliberate* pessimum. 21:10:00 dvorak was designed to make people 200% more awesome 21:10:09 But it's proof that it's hard to get people to switmh to something superior 21:10:10 *ijp* will learn dvorak when there is an actual benefit to it 21:10:31 It would drive me crazy to do IRC if I couldn't type quickly. 21:10:50 ijp: withdvorak iu cahn type almost90x workds prm mim 21:10:54 ijp, it is subjectively more comfortable to type for almost everyone who tries it, afaict 21:11:10 jcowan guess what I'm doing atm 21:11:18 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:12:01 ijp, since dvorak typists spend much more time on the home row, among other factors 21:12:08 A: http://storage8.static.itmages.ru/i/12/0316/h_1331845913_4708948_83c2cd2cf9.png 21:12:09 http://tinyurl.com/7t6wxx8 21:12:11 qwerty is not only slow to type but also ergonomically bad 21:12:26 tomodo: Only 90? I type 100--120 wpm on Dvorak. 21:12:29 ijp: Are you kidding? Qwertians ("kwer-shuns") have to diverge from the home row to type "e", for Christ's sake! 21:12:33 tomodo: I have a friend who types even faster. 21:12:58 And you can see, that's 100--120 wpm with all typos corrected in time. ;-) 21:13:00 -!- keenbug [~daniel@p4FE3888E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:13:33 I'm concerned about how straightforward it would be to become bi-fingeral. 21:13:49 jcowan: My friend, who types faster than me, has actually maintained the use of qwerty also. 21:13:57 Mmm. 21:13:58 jcowan: So she can type both pretty fluently, but still prefers Dvorak. 21:14:09 Sounds good. 21:14:15 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #scheme 21:14:25 dvorak is an affectation 21:14:32 So is IRC 21:14:41 and typing faster than you can think is a waste 21:14:42 Real users use Web chatrooms. 21:14:59 ijp: You know, that was why I started learning Dvorak. ;-) 21:15:00 real programmers use java 21:15:05 Does qwerty even need maintenance after being so used to it? 21:15:19 ijp: When I started, I was one of the fastest qwerty typists at work---and my workmates were not slow by any means! 21:15:26 ijp: I got to the point where I could type faster than I could think. 21:15:35 ijp: So I got bored, and decided I needed to try something new and challenging. 21:15:50 ijp: That "something new and challenging" was Dvorak, and all that happened nearly 9 years ago. 21:15:57 but if I wanted to get into an argument that has no real purpose, I know where to go 21:16:35 ijp: I'm not telling you that you will go to hell if you don't want to learn Dvorak. It's your choice. :-P It's just that some people do choose to use Dvorak for legitimate reasons. 21:16:50 And that they do not have to justify those reasons to anyone. 21:17:13 Yes, my reason was "I was bored". That's good enough for me. :-) 21:17:17 I heard you just make a mental switch and woosh. But I'll find out myself when I've got the hang of this Workman layout 21:17:36 -!- aelath [~aelath@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: aelath] 21:17:52 antithesis: My comment about "qwerty maintenance" is for a person who regularly uses Dvorak. 21:17:57 kvda [~kvda@124-169-155-127.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 21:18:00 antithesis: If you maintain your qwerty ability, then you can type both fluently. 21:18:11 antithesis: I have not maintained my qwerty, so my qwerty speed is about half that of my Dvorak speed now. 21:18:34 antithesis: "Use it or lose it." 21:19:24 But what's it compared to you're peak qworty speed? 21:19:31 half speed is my experience too, using qwerty only *very* occasionally on library computers and the like 21:19:37 bipt: :-D 21:19:47 antithesis: I'd say that I have met or exceeded my original qwerty speed. 21:19:55 -!- GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@117.31.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:20:02 Unfortunately, I did not time my qwerty typing speed at the outset. 21:20:14 But, around 100 wpm is probably believable. 21:20:44 Deducting 1 wpm for each error, as is standard? 21:20:49 Right. 21:20:49 I'll admit, one of the advantages of qwerty is that it's easier to type 'qwerty' 21:20:58 (Or whatever gtypist says.) 21:21:04 The word "typewriter" has all the letters on the top row, too. 21:21:11 antithesis: Lol. 21:21:11 ijp: http://discovermagazine.com/1997/apr/thecurseofqwerty1099 21:21:48 jcowan: (It doesn't matter; my typing was almost flawless back then anyway.) 21:21:59 I make a point to type as flawlessly as I can manage. 21:22:02 It's amazing how much more literate humanity was at the dawn of the internet; you'd see things like "fin de siecle" in Discover. 21:22:25 klutometis: I frankly don't care, keyboard layout arguments are even less productive than OS ones 21:22:58 ijp: I don't care either, except that when I get around to making my Scheme OS I still plan to make Dvorak the built-in layout, with qwerty as a downloadable addon. ;-) 21:23:08 ijp: Your carpal tunnels beg to differ. 21:23:20 cky: I hope you'll be able to download it with the mouse alone, then! 21:23:26 In a couple decades, let's see you IRC in the midst of blinding neuropathy. 21:23:28 jcowan: That's an idea. :-) 21:23:38 in a couple decades IRC will be dead 21:23:49 IRC has been dead since 1993. 21:23:51 ijp: Famous last words. 21:24:04 So have mailing lists and Usenet. 21:24:12 *rudybot* is feeling fine, for what it's worth 21:24:13 jcowan++ 21:24:22 (I know, let's make time_t 32 bits! time_t'll be dead by then.) 21:24:27 Chalking up them karma points! 21:24:32 and for many people they are, and I don't see the a resurgence on the horizon 21:24:58 They are probably as big as ever or bigger, just embedded in a newer, much larger context. 21:25:06 jcowan, or cky's scheme machine will ship with a space cadet dvorak keyboard 21:25:12 Fin de siecle is weirdest name one can give to a literary period: it means "end of the cycle/age" 21:25:15 bipt: :-) 21:25:17 There are probably more radio amateurs than ever before, but they are dwarfed by commercial uses that didn't exist. 21:25:32 antithesis: "Century" in this context. "Turn of the century." 21:25:33 antithesis: More specifically, end of the century; doesn't it? 21:26:00 s/exist/exist when amateur radio began/ 21:26:14 Yeah, that's the word I was looking for 21:27:22 King's pawn to e4, by the way; anyone care to take it up? 21:28:47 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081EDAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:29 -!- kvda [~kvda@124-169-155-127.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: x___x] 21:30:12 rudybot: are _you_ up for some IRC chess? 21:30:12 ijp: maybe I should just go back to an IBM-era thinkpad and give up on working in the sunlight 21:30:17 *offby1* hates chess 21:30:22 chess hates me 21:30:24 we get along fine 21:30:42 *klutometis* 's pawn is enjoying the azure sky above the humid battlefield; whistling Beethoven's Op. 2, No. 2. 21:31:24 uppity pawn; keep an eye on it 21:33:09 Oh, man; I recognize Daemmerung in Rudybot's quote. Sad that he's absent. 21:33:25 *klutometis* raises a glass to paleo-#scheme. 21:33:35 "Better fifty years of Europe than a cycle of Cathay" leaves China behind only 2:1, not bad for 1857 or whatever. 21:33:56 *jcowan* is no good at any sort of strategic game; I much prefer tactical ones. 21:35:33 jcowan: "Strategic" and "tactical" are occasionally synonymous (cf. ); what's the distinction? 21:35:43 Paleo-#scheme? 21:35:55 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #scheme 21:36:13 Riastradh: Roughly defined as #schemers from a half-decade or so ago. 21:36:20 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@ip98-169-80-239.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:36:32 "Paleo" from my point of view is probably shallow, since that's when I joined. 21:36:53 hey, it's a Riastradh 21:37:06 klutometis: Basically whether you need a lot of lookahead to make good decisions, or just a good evaluation function. 21:37:26 wingo: so it is. Let's add him to our Life Lists 21:37:34 Where, wingo? 21:37:41 Well, so much for the theory that Riastradh and wingo are the same person. 21:38:16 clearly a new theory is needed 21:38:33 jcowan: they could still be the same person... 21:38:36 That theory went out the window years ago when he and I were seen in the same room together. 21:38:55 So *you* say. 21:38:55 allegedly 21:38:56 Unless perhaps one of us was an impostor. 21:38:57 Riastradh: though, i did not hear you sing, so i don't think it counts for my life list 21:39:00 that could be explained by the observer having had too much to drink 21:39:00 clearly Riastradh has perfected 'surrogates' 21:39:20 *jcowan* has been in the same room with Riastradh, but not with wingo. 21:39:25 wingo: oh good; I was busy queuing up a web page in case you didn't know what a "life list" was. 21:39:29 offby1, you mean `all several hundred observers at the conference', presumably? 21:39:37 of course 21:39:47 "madness of crowds" and all taht 21:39:49 hidden in plain sight 21:39:56 Aha. So jcowan is presumably the same person as wingo. 21:40:07 I wish. 21:40:07 maybe it was just an oddly solid hologram 21:40:54 (I should know -- I've seen them both!) 21:40:59 help me obi-wan, you're my only hope 21:41:12 if only i could do my hair like that... 21:41:17 wingo: But did you feed Riastradh? 21:41:40 is it true that it has to be before midnight? and you can't get him wet? 21:41:56 jcowan: no, i saw him feed himself, with pieces of wood 21:42:11 *jcowan* waves away the distinction. 21:43:16 if only i could do my hair like that... --Like who? 21:43:51 like the princess leia of course! 21:44:13 Oh. Eeewwww. 21:44:21 *jcowan* never saw the appeal of Carrie Fisher. 21:46:18 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 21:47:00 Like many people my age, I thought she was cute in the original "Star Wars". But I really got to like her after watching "Postcards From the Edge". I guess it helps that she was portrayed by Meryl Streep. 21:47:40 Lol. 21:49:05 rudybot: carrie fisher: hot or not? 21:49:05 ijp: ACTION never saw the appeal of Carrie Fisher. 21:49:13 *snicker* 21:49:22 that's not supposed to happen ... 21:49:24 *ijp* readies his hand of slapping 21:49:32 ijp: oh, you have one of those too? 21:49:43 What is the sound of one hand slapping? 21:49:50 Yes, but only got a few uses left before I need to recharge it 21:49:55 *offby1* slaps Riastradh upside the haid 21:49:57 like that. 21:49:59 **rimshot** 21:50:15 ijp: i have the old manual version. 21:50:25 oooh vintage 21:50:27 ah, the wind-up 21:50:44 rrrrrrreek rrrrrreek rreeeeeek SLAP buching 21:51:25 flaps, taps, and slaps. 21:51:27 well, you gotta keep 'em oiled and cleaned. 21:51:31 er, 21:51:34 *jcowan* flaps, taps, and slaps. 21:51:34 yeah these cheap plastic ones you get today wear out after a few months of heavy use 21:52:32 -!- mmc1 [~michal@178-85-63-71.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:52:45 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:53:39 such banter, it is too much pleasure at once 21:53:57 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-143-186.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:54:39 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-36-245-37.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:55:13 drink some salt water to counteract it then. 21:55:22 or close your hand in a car door 21:55:28 Aaack. 21:57:39 *poof* 21:57:51 pothos [~pothos@114-36-231-170.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 21:58:23 *jcowan* feeds offby1 a puree of oysters and strawberries. 21:59:31 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-156-79.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:59:46 *offby1* mitogenifies 22:03:23 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:03:32 *qu1j0t3* is surprised to find that #banter is empty. 22:05:31 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:05:44 samjiman [samji@02d92be7.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 22:05:51 -!- chupish_ [182c5af4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.44.90.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:06:23 -!- mgodshall_ [~quassel@76.161.200.249] has quit [Quit: gurgle gurgle] 22:07:49 try #wittybanter 22:07:59 also #algonquinroundtable 22:08:09 oh, that's been empty since about the 1940s. Hmm 22:08:51 -!- ijp [~user@host86-151-78-130.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: The garbage collector got me] 22:09:00 Hi. I've looked everywhere, but I can't find out to pass a list to procedure in Scheme. 22:09:22 I tried (myproc (0 1 2)) 22:09:29 ijp [~user@host86-151-78-130.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 22:09:34 and (myproc (list 0 1 2)) 22:10:12 the latter should work 22:10:26 rudybot: eval (length (list 0 1 2)) 22:10:27 ijp: your sandbox is ready 22:10:27 ijp: ; Value: 3 22:10:27 (myproc '(0 1 2)) ; as well (assuming you don't mutate it) 22:10:32 yep, works fine 22:10:58 thanks 22:11:09 wait, wait. NO SCHEME PLEASE. 22:11:17 *qu1j0t3* waits for banter to resume 22:11:27 qu1j0t3 : uh, sorry about that 22:11:30 then for the procedure signature do i just need (myproc (list var)) 22:11:31 ? 22:11:46 procedure signature ? 22:11:57 you'd typically define it like 22:12:02 function signature? 22:12:04 (define (myproc my-list) 22:12:08 ..my-list..) 22:12:40 this being the same as the slightly longer 22:12:45 (define myproc 22:12:50 (lambda (my-list) 22:13:00 ..my-list..)) 22:13:13 there is no signatures here at all 22:13:48 (and there's no need to declare the type of `my-list' at all, it will be whatever is passed to `myproc' -- if you pass a list, it will be a list) 22:13:55 do you literally need my-list or is that just the variable name? Coming from other languages (C, C#) - they call that method/function signatures. 22:14:05 that's just a variable name 22:14:13 samjiman: types don't get specified in scheme 22:14:13 okay, thanks. :) 22:14:29 `(myproc my-list)' might be called the "head" of that definition of `myproc' 22:14:34 didn't think so, just was double checking to save me some trouble. 22:14:36 I mean, if you want to we can write a new version of define for you that does that... 22:15:09 nah, the type is important 22:15:14 i just need a list for numbers. 22:15:22 *not important i mean 22:16:23 qu1j0t3: If you can't wait for the banter to resume naturally, I usually poke at the bot till it says something interesting :) 22:16:39 rudybot: say something interesting 22:16:40 ijp: ViewMode looks interesting, but that doesn't look like I'd be able to quickly turn it off and edit what I'm reading. 22:16:58 jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 22:16:58 *ski* misses sarahbot 22:17:19 rudybot: Is Scheme the best? 22:17:19 samjiman: what practise is that? 22:17:25 :D 22:17:43 rudybot: fibonacci sequence 22:17:43 samjiman: I'm trying to use this to cache function's results (e.g. for generating fibonacci numbers). Is there a better approach? 22:17:57 rudybot: just look 'em up on Wikipedia 22:17:57 *offby1: Eh, I'd just whitelist 'em both; not worth troubling to figure it out 22:18:02 rudybot: did the Lajakeka reach Ljuk today? 22:18:03 ski: teaching gnus how to count is still out of reach 22:18:03 rudybot: agreed 22:18:04 qu1j0t3: agreed, my point was that 'programs written in the functional style are typically all three' does not hold 22:18:13 *offby1* idly wonders why nobody has hooked rudybot up to an Elizabot 22:18:19 rudybot; functional or procedural? 22:18:27 rudybot: functional or procedural? 22:18:28 samjiman: well the problem presented is that the languages mentioned are uninspiring to a functional programmer. 22:18:34 erm 22:18:37 rudybot: I have copyright on that! 22:18:38 qu1j0t3: but it's too far from me and I'm lying on my bed, and am very very lazy 22:18:55 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-197.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:19:07 rudybot: why, you're not ORIGINAL; you merely parrot what you hear in here! You fraud! 22:19:07 qu1j0t3: i guess i found the cause.. i reseted the emacs's "HOME" variable, whereas forgot to put the original .gitconfig to the new "HOME"... 22:19:27 qu1j0t3: and now you're qualified to write your own, or submit patches. 22:19:30 offby1: :) 22:19:49 offby1: actually, I'd like to see the nonsense generated by rudybot talking to himself 22:20:05 though I suspect it will end in a cycle 22:20:38 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:20:43 odd that I've never tried that. 22:20:54 "If I could reach, I'd never leave the house" -- George Carlin 22:22:56 confab [~confab@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has joined #scheme 22:28:08 I'll never look at ouroboros the same way again 22:28:15 haw 22:29:25 -!- samjiman [samji@02d92be7.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:30:21 -!- rageous [~Adium@65-128-200-54.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:31:19 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 22:35:47 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable034.210-160-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:38:44 -!- Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:41:57 erjiang [~erjiang@adsl-108-85-2-151.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:42:50 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 22:43:48 -!- futilius [~will@user-0c9h82b.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:44:10 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-20.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:46:38 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 22:46:59 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:47:38 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:48:43 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable034.210-160-184.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:49:00 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 22:49:13 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 22:57:53 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:02:49 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:41 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:08:44 virl__ [~virl__@91.119.83.164] has joined #scheme 23:10:53 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 23:11:19 -!- virl [~virl__@85-127-158-77.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:13:12 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:13:52 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 23:14:31 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:14:37 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-5-113.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 23:15:16 arrix [~arrix@61.49.112.185] has joined #scheme 23:19:05 -!- arrix [~arrix@61.49.112.185] has quit [Client Quit] 23:19:14 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:19:42 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 23:20:44 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:29:09 -!- antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: yes leaving] 23:35:42 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:38:06 -!- ijp [~user@host86-151-78-130.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: The garbage collector got me] 23:51:32 ijp [~user@host86-151-78-130.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme