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00:15:15 <levi> I actually used scsh for a bit of scripting a few years ago.  It was fairly pleasant, as far as those things go.
00:15:25 <levi> I even used the awk-like features.
00:15:59 <levi> Reminding me of perl without the bizarre syntactic quirks it inherited from the unix tools.
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00:34:32 <jcowan> hoi
00:35:45 <offby1> stamourv: I seem to recall that scsh assumes you are on a unix-y type system.  If that's so, then it won't run on racket on Windows
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00:38:16 <jcowan> Quite likely not.
00:38:39 <offby1> ahoi
00:39:22 <jcowan> ahoy hoy!
00:39:35 *jcowan* bellows down to the other end of the continent.
00:42:36 <levi> I think it also had some particular reader hacks that might not be portable to Racket, although I don't know how flexible the Racket reader is.
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00:44:23 <jcowan> levi: Totally flexible: it can read Scribble or even Algol 60 syntax.
00:44:46 <levi> Oh yeah, I forgot about those.
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00:47:19 <levi> It appears that people are actually working on Scheme48 again these days.
00:50:48 <qu1j0t3> w00t
00:50:56 <qu1j0t3> the Tractable implementation
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00:57:49 <jcowan> We have too many @#$* implementations as it is.
00:58:18 <qu1j0t3> no, YOU do! ;-) the rest of us don't have to wrestle with all 461
00:58:32 <qu1j0t3> jcowan: just deprecate a bunch of 'em!
00:58:43 <levi> I'm going to write my own! It will be SO much better than the others! ;)
00:59:01 <jcowan> KILL DESTROY TERMINATE
00:59:29 <jcowan> I only have about half the ones on the Fairly Complete List.
00:59:51 <levi> Then I will try to hijack the RxRS process to make them conform to the quirks of my implementation!
01:01:18 <turbofail> has anybody tried using RScheme lately?
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01:02:10 <jcowan> Yup.
01:02:14 <jcowan> But you knew that.
01:02:27 <turbofail> heh
01:02:44 <turbofail> i think i tried compiling it not too long ago and it didn't work
01:02:51 <levi> There's a revival of Dylan going on now, too.
01:03:07 <turbofail> but i can't remember whether that really happened or not
01:03:49 <turbofail> i may have it mixed up with several other schemes that also failed to compile
01:04:28 <jcowan> The only one that isn't working for me right now is JScheme, I think.
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01:05:07 <turbofail> hm
01:06:31 *jcowan* boots Linux
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04:51:40 <Lajjla> jonrafkind, I'll buy anything if it's shiney and made by apple.
04:57:01 *jcowan* offers Lajjla a worm
04:57:14 <Lajjla> Hmm
04:57:17 <Lajjla> that is quite tempting
04:57:25 <Lajjla> I do relish a good worm
04:57:29 <Lajjla> but I feel there is an issue if parity.
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05:34:07 <adu> oOo a worm
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05:49:45 <tomodo> that's a caterpilar
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09:51:39 <Operaist2> how do i exit from a scheme
09:51:47 <Operaist2> i try (exit) but it asks for confirmation
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10:16:31 <leppie> (exit 0) or (exit #t) maybe Operaist2
10:16:55 <Operaist2> is there a standard library for scheme?
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10:32:19 <pjb> Several. Search for SRFI
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11:31:55 *rudybot* bows deeply before his master, inventor of incubot
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15:20:35 <Aune> How do environment diagrams and continuations play together? Im trying to wrap my head around call/cc and it seems like this could be a path forward.
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15:23:13 <cky> Aune: Read this: http://tmp.barzilay.org/cont.txt
15:23:50 <cky> Aune: eli writes very well, and you should be able to wrap your head around that with much greater ease.
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15:24:44 <Aune> cky, nice.
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17:59:38 <tcleval> is = the same as eq? ?
18:00:58 <LeoNerd> Not quite
18:01:29 <mario-goulart> = is specific to numbers.
18:01:36 <LeoNerd> eq? checks that two object (reference values) point at -literally- the same area of memory
18:01:53 <LeoNerd> = checks that two number objects represent numerically-equal values
18:02:20 <LeoNerd> It's possible that e.g. with non-native integers, that you might end up with two rationals that are numerically equal even though they're backed by different areas of memory
18:02:29 <LeoNerd> Consider  1/3  vs  (/ 2 6)
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18:14:15 <tcleval> Thx LeoNerd
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18:32:37 <namoamitabuddha> How can I make a recursion in lambda-expression without Y-combinator (only a syntax problem)
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18:33:11 <pjb> namoamitabuddha: by reinventing something equivalent to the Y-combinator. Happy?
18:34:10 <Lajla> The traditional Y-combinator as in Curry's combinator doesn't work with eagre evaluatoin does it?
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18:34:28 <namoamitabuddha> pjb: I wonder whether there is a keyword to identity function itself.
18:34:42 <Lajla> namoamitabuddha, you can make it.
18:34:43 <pjb> There is not.
18:35:16 <pjb> namoamitabuddha: haven't you read r5rs?  That's only 50 pages?  What are you doing  with scheme if you've not taken the pain to read 50 pages?
18:35:55 <namoamitabuddha> pjb: Sorry.
18:36:17 <pjb> http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-2.html
18:36:18 <Lajla> pjb, umad bra
18:36:34 <pjb> Speak English please.
18:37:12 <Lajla> Oh dude you are so dead, I will find an error in your English sooner or later, and when I do sweet, sweet revenge shall yet be mine.
18:37:22 <namoamitabuddha> SICP says that "(define (<function> <parameters>) (<body>))" is equal to "(define <function> (lambda <parameters> <body>))"
18:37:38 <Lajla> Anyway, the existence of a channel like this is veritably retarded if you tell people 'Go read r5rs' if they come here with an earnest quaestion.
18:37:51 <Lajla> You might as well use that to answer anything 'Use google'.
18:38:08 <Lajla> That is quite correct
18:38:15 *kudkudyak* has read r5rs and remembers nothing
18:38:19 <Skola_> Lajla, IRC is not for actually discussing things
18:38:25 -!- Skola_ is now known as Skola
18:38:41 <Lajla> It should be illegal to speak any language but Finnish on IRC.
18:38:45 <Skola> perkele
18:38:51 <surrounder> saatana
18:39:02 <qu1j0t3> Lajla: +1
18:39:03 <Lajla> They cannot take this gloriously archaic protocoll which enjoys whitespread use even though it's archaic and lacks many desirable modern features away from the Finns.
18:39:18 <qu1j0t3> Lajla: just please use Unicode not some weirdass 8-bit scheme
18:39:23 <qu1j0t3> Lajla: then i'll sign
18:39:29 <Lajla> Perkeleen kyrvät on silmäkuopissani.
18:39:52 <surrounder> wish I could speak finnish
18:39:53 <qu1j0t3> oops, there we go; you're not utf-8 ? :/
18:40:01 <Lajla> That might be an issue with znc.
18:40:14 <Lajla> It keeps doing that even though I tell it not to, then it doesn't, then I re-attach and it does that again.
18:40:31 <Lajla> surrounder, Finnish is remarkably easy despite everyone saying it's not.
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18:40:59 <Lajla> namoamitabuddha, anyay.
18:41:10 <Lajla> The point about 'define' is that it can reach its own bindings
18:41:13 <Lajla> Ehhh
18:41:25 <Lajla> Like it, you can use the thing you define itself in its own definition
18:41:27 <Lajla> if that makes sense
18:41:47 <Lajla> Like (define loop (lamba () (loop))) creates an infinite loop that does nothing, goes nowhere.
18:41:53 <Lajla> Well, it creates it if you call it
18:42:06 <namoamitabuddha> Lajla: But (define a cons (0 a)) is illegal.
18:42:12 <Lajla> Yes
18:42:15 <Lajla> THat is true
18:42:21 <Lajla> Because you don't define a funtion then
18:42:41 <Lajla> YOu mean (define a (cons 0 a)) by the way
18:42:47 <Lajla> Scheme is not a lazy langauge.
18:42:59 <namoamitabuddha> yes
18:43:05 <namoamitabuddha> (define a (cons 0 a))
18:43:06 <Lajla> It does hard work for you, like Africans on cotton plantages.
18:43:13 <surrounder> lol
18:43:23 <Lajla> Hey, they like it.
18:43:28 <Lajla> Ask 1790's psychiatry
18:43:30 <namoamitabuddha> so, (define a (cons 0 0)) (set-cdr! a a)
18:43:35 <Lajla> They like it and if they don't like it they are mentally insane.
18:43:42 <namoamitabuddha> Sorry, my english is bad.
18:43:48 <Lajla> Yeah
18:43:56 <Lajla> You can do that I think?
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18:44:03 <Lajla> That creates a circular list.
18:44:11 <Lajla> A list whose cdr is itself.
18:44:31 <Lajla> Which has a tendency to break a lot of code which doesn't expect it.
18:44:48 <namoamitabuddha> Sometimes it is neccessary (such as dummy). But is there any way to work against side-effect?
18:45:08 <Lajla> namoamitabuddha, I don't follow tht last part, could you re-specify?
18:45:47 <namoamitabuddha> I meant that a defination without "set", "set..."
18:45:59 <Lajla> Did you guys know by the way that in Finnish the word for 'not' is actually a verb?
18:46:19 <Lajla> Like, how you use 'shall' in English to form future tenses, you use a verb to form negative aspects.
18:46:24 <Lajla> t means like 'not do'
18:46:36 <Lajla> namoamitabuddha, ahhh
18:46:42 <Lajla> No, you can't I think
18:46:47 <Lajla> Well
18:46:53 <Lajla> You can actually delay evalatuion
18:46:55 <Lajla> With force and delay
18:46:57 <Lajla> you can create streams
18:46:59 <Lajla> Like 'infinite lists'
18:47:01 <Lajla> If you want those
18:47:08 <namoamitabuddha> no
18:47:12 <namoamitabuddha> not infinte lists
18:48:47 <Lajla> Then I am... lost.
18:48:57 <Lajla> And I rule over the moon, even that Nazi moon base.
18:50:08 <namoamitabuddha> It's a dummy element
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18:50:47 <namoamitabuddha> e.g: itself: (list 'null itself itself) means nihil.
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18:51:10 <Lajla> What
18:51:16 <Lajla> namoamitabuddha, what's your native language?
18:52:19 <pjb> rudybot: (let ((a (list 'a))) (set-cdr! a a) a)
18:52:19 <rudybot> pjb: ; Value: #0={a . #0#}
18:52:28 <namoamitabuddha> Lajla: not english, and not alphabet-based.
18:52:46 <Lajla> namoamitabuddha, some Indian language?
18:52:49 <Lajla> Please tell me TAmil
18:52:57 <Lajla> Nepalese?
18:53:22 <Lajla> rudybot, (eq? values (compose))
18:53:22 <rudybot> Lajla: your sandbox is ready
18:53:23 <rudybot> Lajla: ; Value: #t
18:53:29 <Lajla> For some reason that always makes me warm inside.
18:53:44 <Lajla> Whenever an implementation does that.
18:54:08 <namoamitabuddha> Lajla: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linked_list#Sentinel_nodes
18:54:56 <namoamitabuddha> Described in "Introduction to Algorithms", Cormen, Leiserson, Rivest, Stein
18:54:57 <Lajla> namoamitabuddha, go on.
18:55:10 <Lajla> I haven't, I can't read I found out today.
18:55:43 <namoamitabuddha> Lajla: it is with such pointer pointing to itself.
18:56:14 <Lajla> A pointer pointing to a pointer hmm
18:56:17 <Lajla> I like it.
18:56:30 <Lajla> Scheme doesn't really have pointers in that way though
18:56:34 <Lajla> Like in C
18:57:02 <Lajla> I'm afraid the universe explodes if you try to (+ (cons 1 0) 16) here.
18:57:18 <Lajla> Universe exploding is of course fastly praeferable to undefined behaviour.
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18:57:54 <Lajla> It's a shitty universe anyway, obviously the gravitational constant should be slightly larger and the speed of light is just too damned slow.
19:02:53 <namoamitabuddha> I think pointer in C is an address but I consider the datum in Scheme is pointer to the box.
19:09:15 <sawgij> http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-2.html
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19:10:26 <namoamitabuddha> So set-car! and set-cdr! is indeed neccessary.
19:10:29 <Lajla> Oh wow, I just learnt that programming languages should be designed not by piling feature on top of feature, but by removing the weaknesses and restrictions that make additional features appear necessary.
19:10:32 <Lajla> I had no idea.
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19:15:52 <sawgij> Lajla: you talk a lot but you don't say much.
19:18:45 <Lajla> Hey, at least I tried to help himher with more than just linking R5, I feel hisher English isn't quite enough to read that.
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19:29:29 <namoamitabuddha> no answer
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19:42:43 <Lajla> namoamitabuddha, trying does not usually imply success in my case.
19:43:02 <Lajla> namoamitabuddha, I find it hard to understand what you want.
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19:44:47 <namoamitabuddha> Lajla: recular structures
19:44:48 -!- oneirophren [oneirophre@91.196.91.40] has quit []
19:45:06 <Lajla> Ah, I understand completely
19:45:24 <Lajla> Allow me to transform into my more powerful final form and solve this problem, I've only been using 5% of my true power until now!
19:46:14 <namoamitabuddha> circular
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19:48:47 <Lajla> namoamitabuddha, I am not sure what you want to achieve.
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19:51:28 <namoamitabuddha> Lajla: http://sisc-scheme.org/manual/html/ch03.html
19:51:38 <namoamitabuddha> Lajla: circular structures
19:53:20 <namoamitabuddha> Lajla: unsupported in MIT-Scheme
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19:58:07 <Lajla> namoamitabuddha, yes, but what do you want to do with it?
20:01:41 <namoamitabuddha> Lajla: Simplify some check in data structure such as double-linked list or disjoint-set. Let me sleep.
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22:10:55 <lcc> where can I find the LaTeX src for sicp?
22:15:41 <qu1j0t3> it may not be open source :)
22:16:07 <Lajla> Is there an official one anyway?
22:16:29 <Lajla> I mean, it stands to reason that there are in fact many as there are many different forms of SICP al for different media or page sizes
22:16:53 <Lajla> PDF is an atrocity that should be replaced anyway, the issue with PDF is that things like font size, line spacing, font types and all that good stuff are properties of the document, instead of the viewer
22:17:10 <lcc> qu1j0t3: it's under a creative commons license
22:17:17 <Lajla> while as legibility of these things is highly suggested, there should be a standard which makes these properties of the viewer, so that everyone can set up their viewer in the way that pleases them the most.
22:17:35 <Lajla> highly subjective*
22:18:48 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
22:19:50 <qu1j0t3> lcc: yes, the output is.
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22:20:10 <qu1j0t3> lcc: there's no reason to assume the source is available. in general authors don't publish the actual sources, just a product.
22:20:28 <qu1j0t3> lcc: the revolution hasn't quite reached book typesetting yet.
22:21:09 <Lajla> Screw typesetting, it should be part of the viewer, not the document
22:21:20 <qu1j0t3> Lajla: i'm talking about the status quo
22:21:23 <Lajla> You have no idea what it's like to praefer 8pt sans-serif.
22:21:48 <Lajla> While everyone comes with stuff like 15pt serif, sometimes those ridiculous 2em line spacing things they tend to have in sociology papers
22:21:49 <qu1j0t3> oh, I'm a typographer who uses a kindle; i'm pretty aware of non-adaptation of content. :)
22:21:50 <turbofail> having the user be able to arrange the content in a manner of their own pleasing is not necessarily incompatible with the PDF data model
22:21:56 <Lajla> what's the use? It'slike having 2 endlines after each sentence
22:22:05 <Lajla> turbofail, it's not?
22:22:07 <turbofail> you just need a better PDF viewer
22:22:16 <Lajla> Well, it screws up the layout then
22:22:27 <qu1j0t3> --> #firstworldproblems kthx
22:22:33 <Lajla> It's very hard to accompany that, there should be a standard which ensures hat the layout doesn't get screwed.
22:22:42 <Lajla> Dude, reading > drinking water
22:22:48 <qu1j0t3> exactly.
22:23:01 <Lajla> Nigerians have it easy, they don't have PDF viewers, they just die if they drink from their local well
22:23:04 <Lajla> which is overrated anyway
22:23:06 <Lajla> drinking
22:23:17 <pjb> Well, if you go this way, almost all the problems human have are #firstworldproblems.
22:23:46 <pjb> Even the food problems in Africa, they're actually generated by human action.
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22:24:07 <Lajla> Well, modern psychology (oboy) seems to suggest that human happiness doesn't work like that
22:24:14 <Lajla> and that it's hardly caused by things like that
22:24:22 <Lajla> I mean, objectively, these guys have a higher standard of living than cavemen
22:24:27 <Lajla> and those did kind of okay I guess.
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22:42:58 <Aune> Hello, I have a problem:    http://hpaste.org/64907
22:43:36 <Aune> Why does it give the extra lines of input at the end, must be some continuation somwhere that Im missing.
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23:04:19 <jcowan> Aune: What does queue-next! do when the queue is empty?
23:04:54 -!- pumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
23:06:38 <Aune> jcowan, you mean (run-next) ? It should fail. But the only place I use (run-next) is on line 16, where I first check to see that it is not empty.
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23:07:15 <Aune> Except of course when I use it to start the sequence
23:08:21 <jcowan> Ah, okay.  Well, I'd investigate the state of your queue at each step.  It looks like one too many continuations is being pushed on it.
23:08:35 <Aune> Good idea
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23:16:51 <Aune> Seems there isnt any extra continuation in the queue. Can it be that the first "thread" is copied so that the multitasking part runs it course and then returns to the first thread in some way
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23:25:42 <Aune> It seems I have built some implicit stack somwhere such that this happens with three threads:
23:27:04 <Aune> Run thread 1-2-3 in parallell as expected, run thread 2 from after the first paus til its end, run thread one from the first pause til the end.
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23:28:57 <Lajla> Aune, what is your opinion about universal morality?
23:29:14 <Lajla> As in, the notion that some deeds are objectively and universally 'right' or 'wrong' in a moral sense?
23:30:14 <Aune> Lajla, Im undecided as of yet.
23:30:29 <Lajla> Hmm
23:30:49 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
23:31:14 <Lajla> I would say that the terms 'objective' and 'universal' and 'right' and 'wrong' are so vague and so ill-defined that honestly even saying 'I don't know' is too much, it's like asking some-one 'Do you believe in the existence of frumzls' and not explaining what a frumzl might be.
23:31:23 arcfide [~arcfide@c-71-201-30-15.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme
23:31:31 <turbofail> everyone knows what a frumzl is
23:31:32 <Lajla> It's honestly a matter of definition, which leads to particularly silly things
23:31:46 <Lajla> turbofail, the dead cat of a friend of mine was named Turbo
23:31:51 <Lajla> He failed combating cancer
23:31:57 <Lajla> THanks for reminding me
23:31:58 <Lajla> evil person
23:32:19 <Aune> Well true. Im more of an empiricist here. Even if there were universal moral law, how would we distinguish them from bad approximations?
23:33:01 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
23:33:03 <Aune> What experiments could we perform?
23:33:14 <Lajla> Quite, I think the term is so vague and so undefinable that it hardly warrants any discussion.
23:33:22 <Lajla> Same with the existence of 'a god' for honestly.
23:33:27 <Lajla> It's a matter of definitions
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23:33:42 <Lajla> Akhenaten worshipped the sun as a god, clearly the sun exists, therefore, all atheists are wrong. Q.E.D. come at me bro?
23:34:18 <Aune> I agree
23:34:26 <cky> That reminds me of Russell's Teapot.
23:34:30 <Aune> Stupid atheists
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23:35:43 <Lajla> Russell's teapot is often pulled out of contexts.
23:35:59 <Lajla> Russell's teapot shows that it is silly to believe in a certain specific well defined 'god', not to deny the existence of gods altogeither.
23:36:26 <turbofail> (define god 'turbofail)
23:36:36 <turbofail> that was easy
23:37:36 <turbofail> now what useful conclusions can i arrive at from this definition?
23:38:22 <Lajla> I was never a fan of using symbols in that way
23:38:48 <Lajla> Or using them for their characters
23:39:42 <Lajla> that should honestly be outlawed on pain of having to wash Taekyong "Bisu[shield]" Gim's underwear
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23:45:44 <offby1> rudybot: (eq? god 'turbofail)
23:45:44 <rudybot> *offby1: ; Value: #t
23:45:47 <offby1> works for me
23:46:09 <pjb> You're not a symbol!
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23:46:55 <Lajla> offby1, my love.
23:47:01 <Lajla> offby1, watch this:
23:47:06 <Lajla> rudybot, (eq? values (compose))
23:47:07 <rudybot> Lajla: ; Value: #t
23:48:09 <cky> Lajla: I don't get why that should be surprising.
23:48:18 <Lajla> It's not
23:48:28 <Lajla> It's just that some implementations don't do that
23:48:34 <Lajla> and those that do always make me smile, because it makes sense
23:48:45 <Lajla> Often those that do don't support multiple value return compose anyway.
23:48:59 <Lajla> But ehhh
23:49:09 <Lajla> I hear some people don't like values and want it to go away?
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23:49:18 <cky> Lajla: http://refactormycode.com/codes/836 :-D
23:49:19 <Lajla> jonrafkind, my love.
23:52:16 <Lajla> cky, my implementation is obviously superior.
23:55:07 <cky> Uh, okay.
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23:55:36 <Lajla> cky, Camp Kill Yourself?
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