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realitygrill] 00:57:56 -!- albert-sicp [~albert-si@108-205-152-179.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:01:16 cky, hey 01:01:29 cky, I was going to ask you that earlier, but forgot. 01:01:45 Was it my impression or you like C++? 01:09:21 phao: well, he said of the unmanaged languages, he'd choose it. 01:09:42 phao: and that it was tractable for a sufficiently experienced programmer. 01:09:55 qu1j0t3, yeah, that was what he said =) 01:10:02 I got curious to know what he really thinks. 01:10:11 about liking it or not. 01:11:32 i dunno, you can find people who like or dislike anything. 01:11:46 in the end you have to form your own opinion but popularity polls don't really work. 01:12:53 Well, I still wanna know about what other people think. 01:13:48 Last time I asked somebody "why don't you like C++", I ended up learning a major flaw in the language (idk if it's actually a flaw, but looks like one, and of course "major" is kind of subjective). 01:14:11 phao: here are some flaws. http://www.google.ca/url?q=http://yosefk.com/c%2B%2Bfqa/defective.html&sa=U&ei=WMwxT--kIOTh0QGp-MD7Bw&ved=0CBAQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNF549DwVn10wXya6ckrnWiQ_62OtQ 01:14:11 http://tinyurl.com/8xoynvl 01:14:24 Yeah, I found that out already. 01:14:27 read some of it. 01:14:31 phao: arrrgh curse you google 01:14:42 ? 01:14:52 phao: that stupid link. which should have been http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/defective.html 01:15:03 ehehe 01:16:11 qu1j0t3, the think I learn was about mixing templates and constants 01:16:19 if a function receives a vector you can't give it a vector it seems 01:18:28 I thought (and still think) that is a *major* flaw because when I learned C++, the course had a big focus on "software engineering best practices", and one of these is giving the function least access possible to the data you pass to it 01:18:46 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:19:05 thus, consts were used everywhere, and I kind of liked that, 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host closed the connection] 02:23:55 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Client Quit] 02:24:11 -!- dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:26:24 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:27:58 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #scheme 02:30:23 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:31:23 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #scheme 02:34:43 phao: Let's take that convo to #stackoverflow, since I'm not on ##c++ (besides, you can't criticise C++ in ##c++ without getting hell for it anyway), and #scheme isn't really a venue for C++. :-P 02:43:55 -!- confab [~confab@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:50:37 ANT` [~user@dhcp169-143.lab169.tuat.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 02:51:37 -!- ANT` [~user@dhcp169-143.lab169.tuat.ac.jp] has left #scheme 03:00:54 -!- peterhil 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[~attila_le@m212-96-64-7.cust.tele2.kz] has quit [Changing host] 03:45:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 03:50:01 -!- asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE5.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:55:43 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:00:49 Operaist2 [~OperaIst@ppp-124-120-219-85.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #scheme 04:00:58 where can i find beautiful girls? 04:08:29 -!- GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@135.51.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:09:18 here, certainly. 04:10:03 so 04:10:15 while I don't know whether I'd describe myself as beautiful or not 04:10:20 I really must question your choice of venue 04:10:38 *qu1j0t3* can't sing, either. 04:10:44 mostly we are here to talk about scheme, for which gender and/or physical attractiveness are not relevant 04:11:26 ) ( 04:11:37 The curves in this channel are mostly parentheses. 04:11:53 levi: nice curve ball 04:11:58 *qu1j0t3* guesses Operaist2 is drunk 04:11:59 yes, it's true that there are a lot of jokes to be made about the sublime curves of parentheses 04:12:03 qu1j0t3: your pun wounds me 04:12:13 elly: oh, i hate puns. i'm just a bad man. 04:12:32 fair enough 04:13:25 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-149-239.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:14:33 anyway, Operaist2, you probably want to try #haskell 04:14:40 good luck on your quest 04:17:39 What is your name? What is your quest? What is your favorite color? 04:17:57 well one of us could pretend to be a beautiful girl 04:18:05 i vote rudybot 04:18:17 I wish minion was still around 04:18:27 also, hey! I resent the implication :P 04:18:41 rename rudy to ruby plz 04:20:32 Are not women (or men too, I guess) who are Schemers the most beautiful kind of all? ;P 04:21:08 rudybot: are you beautiful? 04:21:09 turbofail: you could use a translator or smth that translates from curly braces to tabs/spaces 04:21:27 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:21:45 elly are you a girl? 04:21:49 im so lonely can you talk to me? 04:21:50 rudybot (where can i find beautiful girs?) 04:22:01 i like girs 04:22:20 Operaist2: sorry, you are in the wrong place 04:22:40 haha 04:23:03 try #ruby they're bound to have a few in there 04:23:07 I imagine she'll talk to you if you have something interesting and scheme-related to say, although maybe not anymore. 04:23:52 turbofail, yeah obnoxious know it alls 04:24:01 I thought the ruby community alienated all the women with their macho Rails Rock Star attitude. 04:24:27 are women alienated by macho rock star attitudes? because all of the evidence i've seen suggests otherwise 04:24:33 And it used to be such a nice community. 04:24:38 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:25:12 Well, maybe it was the pig-headed sexist slide decks at RailsConf or whatever it was. 04:25:17 turbofail: I would avoid trying to generalize about 'women' like that as if we're some homogenous entity 04:25:23 within 10 minutes of seeing what DHH approach to thing I wanted to punch him in the face 04:25:28 but yes, the ruby community is rampantly sexist sometimes 04:25:33 broked english 04:26:24 whois operaist2 04:26:54 oh no i got caught whoising myself 04:26:57 the shame 04:27:19 Back when it was just Matz and his mild-mannered affection for Scheme and Smalltalk leading things, it seemed like a cool bunch of people. 04:27:34 elly: fine, s/women/a statistically significant portion of women that i have known/ 04:27:57 turbofail: I dunno? 04:28:09 I personally find the attitude you described offputting 04:28:30 i don't think turbofail is wrong 04:28:49 as generalising as it is 04:28:50 it seems to me there aren't many women in programming 04:29:06 indeed 04:29:13 anyway i've got a train to catch 04:29:16 *elly* is the only woman on her team of ~25 engineers at work 04:29:52 why is that? 04:30:57 um 04:31:04 well, there are a lot of factors at play 04:31:31 women are taught from a young age, through societal pressure, that engineering and mathematics are 'masculine' subjects 04:31:47 even women who overcome those pressures face sexism in the workplace and, well, creeps hitting on us on IRC 04:32:10 schemenewb [63e70dd8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.231.13.216] has joined #scheme 04:32:43 Hi, why does (eqv? '(1 . 2) (cons 1 2)) return #f? 04:33:28 for the same reason that (eqv? '(1) '(1)) returns #f 04:33:48 http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r5rs_8.html 04:33:56 note that: "obj1 and obj2 are pairs, vectors, or strings that denote the same locations in the store" 04:34:14 perhaps you meant equal? 04:34:17 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:36:09 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:39:16 elly: No, I meant eqv?. The link you posted really clears things up. So (cons 1 2) is not equivalent to '(1 . 2), because the result of (cons 1 2) is stored in the location for the return value of the function, whereas '(1 2) is stored somewhere else (Where?) 04:40:06 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:40:21 schemenewb: "somewhere" 04:40:32 they are separate values 04:41:07 My daughter (who is 5 now) loves her kindergarten math homework the best. I am hopeful that she will continue to enjoy it. 04:41:07 whereas in this: (let ((x '(1 2))) (eqv? x x)) 04:41:22 x refers to the same value on the heap (metaphorically) both times 04:41:24 levi: yay :) 04:41:53 work runs this program where we send female engineers out to middle- and highschools to encourage women to take computer science and math classes 04:41:58 but I fear that by then it is already too late :\ 04:43:23 elly: So eqv? returns #f because the arguments to a function are in general stored in a separate variable each and not checked for their content? 04:44:05 yes 04:44:18 if you pass '(1) '(1) to a function, those are both separate variables 04:44:41 a clever interpreter could arrange for that not to be so, but... "why bother?" 04:45:24 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:45:54 elly: Then why is (eq? '(1) '(1)) unspecified and not false? Especially since it is said in your posted reference, that I may be impletemented as a pointer comparison procedure. 04:46:09 may != must 04:46:31 i dont think its societal pressure that makes women shy away from maths and engineering 04:46:50 schemenewb: in fact, the spec says: (eq? (list 'a) (list 'a)) ==> #f 04:47:04 so explicit list constructions do produce un-eq? values 04:47:30 (eq? '(a) '(a)) is unspecified presumably to allow a sufficiently-clever interpreter to have them be eq? 04:47:59 since (eqv? '(a) '(a)) seems to be required to be #f: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r5rs_5.html#SEC22 04:49:01 elly: Scheme's output is trying to be independent of the interpreter? 04:49:05 *elly* waves her hands around a lot and mutters the phrase 'storage model' 04:49:21 schemenewb: I believe the goal is that eqv? is interpreter-independent (because it refers to an abstract storage model) 04:49:28 and eq? is interpreter-dependent 04:49:39 -!- phao [phao@177.115.31.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:49:45 jcowan would know this, or riastradh, but they are both missing 04:50:16 elly: Ok, I understand. Thanks! 04:50:19 quote isn't a procedure though, so objects created by it wouldn't have to be considered mutable. 04:50:36 hm 04:50:39 that is a good conjecture 04:50:40 I like it 04:50:45 It's a special form. 04:50:54 yes 04:51:07 http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r5rs_6.html#SEC27 04:51:25 oh, aha! 04:51:27 yeah 04:51:28 In fact, objects created by quote are defined to be immutable. 04:51:38 so if it is immutable, the interpreter can freely reuse the same storage slot 04:51:48 so (eq? '(a) '(a)) makes perfect sense 04:51:49 Indeed. 04:51:52 woo 04:51:54 thanks, levi 04:51:59 No problem! 04:52:15 I am happy to get my rusty scheme gears turning again. 04:52:16 if that were true then we should see a difference in the ratio of engineers between males/females between different countries but we don't 04:52:26 Too much C programming lately has been rotting my brain! 04:52:43 Operaist2: Are you sure? 04:53:15 levi: I dunno, I find programming in C refreshing sometimes :) 04:53:21 it's nice to know exactly how big everything is 04:53:29 There is that. 04:53:39 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-151-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:53:50 I program in C, or at least read the code that other people have written in C, every day. 04:54:09 == 04:54:11 levi: yes. the modern "cultural societal but never biological" push for equality does not match up with empirical evidence im afraid 04:54:21 *elly* is a kernel hacker by day, scheme programmer by night 04:54:28 Operaist2: this is not a good venue for this argument 04:54:28 Operaist2: So you conjecture. 04:54:31 perhaps take it to #defocus 04:54:38 this channel is for discussion of Scheme and related languages 04:55:19 and the woman censors my dissenting arguments 04:55:24 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o elly 04:55:43 that particular bit of rudeness was outside the bounds of acceptable behavior in this channel 04:55:55 please be civil to everyone and stay on topic; there are other channels for other topics if you desire 04:58:04 haha 04:58:09 confab [~confab@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:58:41 I'm reading Coders at Work right now, and I'm on the Fran Allen chapter. Sadly, I hadn't heard of her before, but her interview is pretty interesting. 04:59:03 levi: is that worth reading? 05:00:24 I don't know that it's got many profound insights or anything, but I think it's pretty interesting and engaging. 05:00:58 I should have another try at the Reasoned Schemer 05:01:09 I'm maybe a bit unusually interested in the people and history behind computers and programming, though. 05:01:19 I did not have the mathematical maturity to understand what was being expressed the last time I looked at it 05:02:16 I find the evolution of programming languages fascinating 05:02:26 I just watched the presentation from that Clojure conference on miniKanren. Made me want to read the Little/Seasoned/Reasoned Schemer books. 05:02:28 it is kind of darkly amusing to watch other languages grow features that McCarthy thought of :P 05:02:54 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #scheme 05:03:30 Everyone's currently hashing up the same ideas that have been around for decades and are perpetually forgotten and rediscovered. 05:04:10 I actually learned about lamport signatures a couple of days ago and my mind almost imploded from the elegance 05:05:33 it's very weird to see something so powerful built from such a small primitive 05:05:41 I'm not sure what those are, but Leslie Lamport is a seriously smart dude. 05:05:44 (in this case digital signatures built from only hash functions) 05:05:52 ah, so a lamport signature is this: 05:05:53 levi: quote just returns another external representation of an object? Since (eq? 'a 'a) returns #t any external representation of an object is stored in the same location? 05:05:56 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:06:11 choose 256 pairs of nonces (n_i0, n_i1) 05:06:19 levi: *same external representation 05:06:29 then publish (h(n_i0), h(n_i1)) for all i (i.e., publish the hashes of all your nonces) 05:06:46 schemenewb: Symbols are sort of a special kind of object. 05:06:47 to sign a document, produce a 256-bit hash of it, then use each bit of the hash to choose which nonce of each pair you will use 05:07:03 then produce the nonces indicated - that is the signature 05:07:08 it is really painfully slick 05:07:47 pomke [~pomke@unaffiliated/pomke] has joined #scheme 05:08:25 Interesting. I imagine there's some sort of verification procedure you can go through to trace the signed document back to you? 05:09:00 hm? 05:09:03 the 'verification' is that you produced the nonces corresponding to the hashes you produced earlier 05:09:16 the nonces are the private key, the hashes of the nonces are the public key 05:10:03 levi: so you are saying any literals equivalent external representation is stored in the same location, whereas the immutable return value of a procedure might not? I suppose the set of all immutable objects is not contained in the set of literals 05:10:28 immutable objects is indeed not a subset of literals 05:10:36 I can't speak to the rest of your question 05:10:41 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 05:10:41 No, I'm saying that symbols are defined specifically so that you can use eq? to compare them. 05:11:02 How? 05:11:26 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 05:11:33 -!- pomke [~pomke@unaffiliated/pomke] has left #scheme 05:12:09 There's a process called 'interning' that the reader does. 05:12:56 So any Scheme intepreter as to do interning in the same way by the specifications of the language? 05:12:58 *has 05:13:39 They don't have to do it the same way, but they do have to do it such that all symbols that are spelled the same way end up satisfying the eqv? predicate. 05:13:39 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-36-231-66.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:13:42 pothos_ [~pothos@114-36-231-66.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 05:14:14 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 05:14:40 -!- pothos_ is now known as pothos 05:15:37 foof: I can't really figure out how to use chibi's module system. 05:15:43 foof: is there documentation I have failed to read? 05:15:55 elly: Sorry, I'm missing something somewhere between the published hashes of nonce-pairs as your public key and the nonces selected by the hash of the document that lets you match them up. I'm sometimes a bit dense when it comes to cryptographic stuff, I usually have to read through things several times before they make sense to me. 05:16:33 levi: well, let's do an example 05:16:58 you, at some point, produce your public key, which is these 256 pairs of hashes, and you hand it to me, and I remember that it is your public key 05:17:15 we'll call that (k_i0, k_i1) for i from 0 to 255 05:17:17 Got it. 05:17:23 later, you desire to sign a message m 05:17:40 er, sorry, your public key is (h(k_i0), h(k_i1)) for i from 0 to 255 05:17:47 your _private_ key is (k_i0, k_i1) 05:17:58 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-28-124.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:18:00 So every time I call quote the interpreter does something equivalent to looking up, if it is a literal, the input in a hash table and returning the same location, if it has already returned an external representation for that literal? 05:18:05 it is easy to produce (h(k_i0), h(k_i1)) from (k_i0, k_i1), but not vice-versa 05:18:33 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-28-124.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 05:18:57 schemenewb: If it is a symbol. Other literal objects don't have to be stored and looked up that way. 05:19:18 But they *could* be. 05:19:18 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:19:18 -!- Operaist2 [~OperaIst@ppp-124-120-219-85.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:19:18 -!- r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:19:19 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:19:19 -!- weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:19:54 r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has joined #scheme 05:20:42 so, levi 05:20:45 OK, I get it now. 05:20:50 oh, good :) 05:20:51 So in a sense, this is the abosolute base case 05:21:24 yeah - basically my producing the k_i0 or k_i1s as needed for m proves that I possess the (k_i0, k_i1) pairs that correspond to the public key I gave out 05:21:33 kanru_ [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #scheme 05:21:45 levi: as a comprehension check, do you understand why a particular lamport keypair can only be used once? 05:22:40 Your signiture consists of random halves of your key pairs. Use it a few times and your private key would be vulnerable. 05:22:53 indeed 05:23:07 if you use it twice, even, you've leaked many bits of your private key 05:23:25 Yeah. 05:23:29 assuming random distribution there's now only 64 unknown nonces, which means an adversary needs to preimage 64 bits of the hash to forge sigs from you 05:23:35 it's cute, isn't it? 05:23:51 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 05:23:59 Cute's a good way of putting it. :) 05:24:23 it's also quantum-computer-resistant 05:24:24 schemenewb: What do you mean by 'this' in 'this is the absolute base case'? 05:24:26 which is really distressing 05:24:36 -!- snorble [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:25:17 levi: the comparison of two semantically equivalent symbols always returns equal 05:26:16 weinholt [weinholt@2a02:9a0:6:821a:20a:e4ff:fe2d:16e4] has joined #scheme 05:26:16 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 05:26:16 Operaist2 [~OperaIst@ppp-124-120-219-85.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #scheme 05:27:38 Like I said, that's the whole point of symbols. You want something that is meaningful to the human reader of the program that doesn't also have some sort of accidental alternate meaning like a number would, but which can be used for equality comparisons. 05:28:29 symbols are just strings that are guaranteed to be interned, and for which eq? 'a 'a is guaranteed to be true 05:29:40 -!- weinholt [weinholt@2a02:9a0:6:821a:20a:e4ff:fe2d:16e4] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:40 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:40 -!- Operaist2 [~OperaIst@ppp-124-120-219-85.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:30:07 That makes a lot of sense. Thank you very much levi and elly! 05:30:36 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.3.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:31:22 I'm leaving again. Both of you have a good one! 05:31:27 Sort of like error codes or that sort of thing in C. The code itself typically doesn't mean anything as a number, it's just a special number that's set aside to denote a particular semantic meaning. 05:32:12 I understand. Thank you again! 05:32:13 In Scheme, symbols were created for that sort of thing so you can just give the thing a name instead of creating an arbitrary mapping of integers to names yourself. 05:32:17 No problem! 05:32:24 <- overexplainer 05:32:40 bytbox_ [~s@129.2.129.226] has joined #scheme 05:32:44 finnrobi_ [~robb@xvm-20-190.ghst.net] has joined #scheme 05:32:51 It's fine, I just don't want to waste Your time. Bye bye 05:32:56 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:32:56 -!- finnrobi [~robb@xvm-20-190.ghst.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:32:56 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:32:58 khisanth_ [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #scheme 05:33:00 -!- schemenewb [63e70dd8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.231.13.216] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:33:05 Guy Steele is one of the interviewees in Coders at Work. 05:33:10 awesome! 05:33:24 -!- jrslepak_ [~jrslepak@punchout.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:33:32 Guy Steele is awesome. 05:33:44 yeah 05:33:46 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:33:56 Peter asks him about his role in the creation of emacs. 05:34:04 jrslepak_ [~jrslepak@punchout.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 05:35:09 weinholt [weinholt@2a02:9a0:6:821a:20a:e4ff:fe2d:16e4] has joined #scheme 05:35:09 Operaist2 [~OperaIst@ppp-124-120-219-85.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #scheme 05:35:11 tali713 [~tali713@75.72.193.140] has joined #scheme 05:35:25 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 05:36:05 xian_ [xian@we-are-the-b.org] has joined #scheme 05:36:06 I wish MIT hadn't stopped teaching 6.001 in scheme 05:37:10 It was originally a set of TECO macros. TECO was a line-oriented editor, but someone figured out how to set it up so that the bottom few lines were command lines for TECO commands, but you could create a set of 'self-inserting' macros bound to normal keys along with some cursor motion macros and use the rest of the screen as a visual editor. 05:37:41 TECO is really distressing 05:38:08 I don't recall all the details of who came up with the idea, but it turned out that everyone caught on to it, but they'd all come up with different command sets, so you couldn't ever use anyone else's terminal. 05:38:18 "just like now" 05:39:01 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:39:01 -!- xian [xian@we-are-the-b.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:39:02 -!- Operaist2 [~OperaIst@ppp-124-120-219-85.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20120129141551]] 05:39:16 So Guy is distressed by this, and he embarks in the process of interviewing everyone and taking down notes as to what their keybindings are and why, and he essentially puts together a coherent standard set of bindings and gets everyone to buy off on it. 05:39:36 hah, really? 05:39:38 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:39:39 -!- elly has set mode -o elly 05:39:47 I would've thought there was no way that could work 05:40:18 peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #scheme 05:40:38 Well, if anyone could do it, it's Guy Steele. 05:41:24 offby1` [~user@ec2-204-236-150-238.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 05:42:21 -!- offby1` [~user@ec2-204-236-150-238.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:42:21 offby1` [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 05:42:33 Pepe__ [~ppjet@anderith.bouah.net] has joined #scheme 05:42:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-111.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:43:10 zedstar_ [~john@zedstar.com] has joined #scheme 05:43:13 certaint1 [~david@matrix.d-coded.de] has joined #scheme 05:43:19 dsmith_ [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:43:45 Have you read the Lambda papers? 05:43:49 no - link me? 05:44:20 http://library.readscheme.org/page1.html 05:44:27 snorble [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 05:44:37 hm 05:45:20 Old stuff, but interesting. 05:45:28 I will see your interesting collection of papers and raise you the Kernel paper: ftp://ftp.cs.wpi.edu/pub/techreports/pdf/05-07.pdf 05:45:37 poucet_ [~chris@li23-146.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 05:45:59 The footnote indicators in "Lambda: The Ultimate Imperative" are funny. 05:46:17 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jirercroiwzzkbec] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:46:24 They have reference names instead of numbers. 05:46:29 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vqrkmlaqzchxdswa] has joined #scheme 05:46:35 -!- Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:46:36 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@anderith.bouah.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:46:36 -!- certainty [~david@matrix.d-coded.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:46:36 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:46:36 -!- zedstar [~john@fsf/member/zedstar] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:46:36 -!- poucet [~chris@li23-146.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:46:36 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:46:49 *elly* will have a look at them once she has finished reviewing this assignment 05:47:33 "The ultimate generalization of this imperative programming style is _continuation-passing_. {Note Churchwins}" 05:48:38 "Passing control to F is an _unconditional_transfer_. {Note Jrsthack} {Note Hewitthack}" 05:48:42 That sort of thing. 05:51:25 Ah, the Kernel programming language. I came across this not too long ago. 05:51:55 I approve of named footnotes 05:52:24 There's a guy playing around with designing languages that is a fan of Kernel and pointed it out to me. 05:53:12 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #scheme 05:53:55 ysph [~user@mobile-166-147-124-046.mycingular.net] has joined #scheme 05:56:51 Although I am sympathetic to theoretical purity, I am skeptical of anything that claims to be both practical and uncompromising. 06:01:51 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 06:03:35 Wow, C made Fran Allen stop programming. 06:05:13 yikes 06:05:15 really? oO 06:07:42 Well, she was in the business of writing fancy optimizing compilers for fancy high-perforance computers, and she felt that the rise of C, in overspecifying where and how things got placed in memory and how computations took place, set the language and compiler industry back immensely. 06:09:25 it kind of did, though 06:09:33 It certainly did. 06:09:40 Bah, C, I hate it! 06:10:23 in some sense C is a triumph of human blood, sweat, and tears over intelligent optimizations 06:10:40 I want something that is lower-level than C, but with a sane macro-processor. 06:12:03 The philosophy of C was explicitly to give the responsibility for optimization to the programmer. 06:14:21 She's talking about stuff like letting the compiler move data around to optimize for data locality and cache coherency and that sort of thing. 06:15:49 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 06:15:50 I think it would be interesting to have a language and compiler that would be able to analyze your code automatically for those kinds of issues and tell you why your data structure is causing tons of cache misses or your algorithm is full of pipeline stalls or whatever. 06:16:09 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 06:17:53 jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.240] has joined #scheme 06:20:41 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 06:20:55 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.45] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:21:59 -!- Pepe__ is now known as Pepe_ 06:26:09 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:27:23 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.45] has joined #scheme 06:29:21 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.45] has quit [Client Quit] 06:34:04 Hah. Fran, who works for IBM Research (and has for her entire length career) says she often published her work with the intent of having other companies adopt it so that it would then get adopted by the main body of IBM. 06:34:39 :P 06:35:05 I have heard they are like that 06:36:34 Well, she says there are better processes in place now. But it's not terribly surprising. 06:37:00 You should check out the book. It's pretty interesting, and definitely light reading next to CS papers. 06:39:44 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:41:19 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 06:47:12 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #scheme 06:48:46 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:49:38 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 06:50:43 -!- jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:02:25 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:03:00 foof: if I have a #define d_TIME_INFINITE 0xFFFFFFFF, then will this be ok regarding the type and domains? (define-c-const unsigned-int (ctos/d_TIME_INFINITE "d_TIME_INFINITE")) 07:03:20 -!- pushp0p is now known as Alpha_Plus_ 07:04:15 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:08:13 elly: This is the video I watched earlier about miniKanren. http://blip.tv/clojure/dan-friedman-and-william-byrd-minikanren-5936333 07:09:52 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:10:50 Vinnipeg [~zaytsev_k@79.126.72.235] has joined #scheme 07:13:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-111.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:25:38 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:27:55 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #scheme 07:32:25 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-169.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:33:47 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:35:01 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.3.40] has joined #scheme 07:36:56 ineiros 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eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 13:32:37 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:32:37 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 13:33:54 elly: chibi's module system is described in the R7RS draft 13:34:11 attila_lendvai: that looks right 13:39:47 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 13:43:51 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:45:36 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 13:50:38 -!- bytbox_ [~s@129.2.129.226] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:52:15 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.226] has joined #scheme 13:55:10 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:56:33 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 13:58:18 foof: oh! 14:00:52 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 14:04:37 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:06:32 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 14:08:33 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.134.115] has joined #scheme 14:09:11 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 14:10:46 -!- ijp [~user@host109-156-159-191.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:13:01 elly: Next time people like to troll about gender on IRC and you want to send them somewhere, send them to #stackoverflow. We have a handful of people who would cheerfully rip them a new asshole. 14:13:26 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:13:40 "On the internet, nobody knows you're.. wait.. what am I again?" 14:14:53 metasyntax|work [~taylor@fw-its-kt209a-2.dyn.ipfw.edu] has joined #scheme 14:15:29 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 14:15:30 elly: Granted, stupidity is probably the only off-topic thing on #stackoverflow, but the ops there will set them right in short order. ;-) (Disclosure: I'm an op there.) 14:16:47 (Though we tend to use those powers only if we can't pull their heads out of their arses via "gentler" means.) 14:21:26 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:23:24 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 14:26:03 ijp [~user@host109-156-159-191.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 14:27:15 cky: *nod* 14:27:18 langmart` [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 14:28:54 -!- langmart` [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28:58 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:30:04 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 14:35:18 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:36:05 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 14:43:03 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:44:28 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-151-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:45:01 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 14:46:58 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:48:27 snizzo [~quassel@iglu.cc.uniud.it] has joined #scheme 14:49:24 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #scheme 14:51:12 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:52:56 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 14:58:15 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-151-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:02:24 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 15:05:04 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:05:32 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #scheme 15:07:00 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:10:18 bweaver [~bweaver@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 15:10:53 -!- snizzo [~quassel@iglu.cc.uniud.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:24 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:13:04 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:15:58 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:17:07 malkavian [~avli@91.144.171.243] has joined #scheme 15:17:38 Hi, folks 15:18:04 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-72-107-176.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:18:24 hello 15:18:30 Can someone help me with a simple task? I want to understand how to launch .scm files. Is it possible with mit-scheme? 15:19:00 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:19:11 what operating system? 15:19:15 Linux 15:19:45 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 15:19:47 mit-scheme version 9.1.1 15:19:59 i don't know about mit-scheme, but with chicken you could: echo '#!/usr/bin/chicken -s' > foo ; chmod 700 foo ; ./foo 15:20:05 GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@135.51.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 15:20:56 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:21:19 hypnocat: thanks! If there will be no other advices I'll give chicken scheme a chance ;) 15:21:38 if you do, come to #chicken :) 15:21:54 I'm pretty sure the manual for mit-scheme will cover this 15:23:11 ijp: may be... but I've spent some time to find info, but no results. It's strange, for task looks trivial. 15:23:29 hypnocat: ok :) 15:26:01 scheme -load foo.scm ? 15:28:19 that's judging from http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scheme-7.4/doc-html/user_3.html .I don't have an MIT scheme install 15:30:33 oops.. i meant '#!/usr/bin/csi -s' not '#!/usr/bin/chicken -s' 15:31:58 http://wiki.call-cc.org/writing%20portable%20scripts <= more portable 15:32:08 ijp: thank you! 15:32:43 ijp: I've done a mistake. The problem was mostly in my program. 15:33:46 Thanks everyone for help. Looks like the problem is solved :) 15:34:01 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:35:57 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:38:26 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@89-178-158-97.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:39:35 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:40:12 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #scheme 15:41:57 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:43:10 humasect [~humasect@d24-235-167-67.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #scheme 15:43:52 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:46:41 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:47:37 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 15:50:26 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #scheme 15:54:20 foof: you asked last time... one of my concerns with chibi is that if we flash the devices and send them away, then it will be a headache to reflash a new version. so, if I screw up something with the ffi in C land, then I can't fix that with a downloaded update... (unless I miss something) 15:55:54 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:55:59 foof: and a random note: tools/chibi-ffi has a call to sexp_length which is missing the first ctx argument. I'll send a patch later on if you miss this... 15:56:08 jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.240] has joined #scheme 15:57:50 -!- porco [~porco@123.114.100.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:57:53 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:59:07 porco [~porco@123.114.100.97] has joined #scheme 15:59:16 phao [phao@187.117.255.31] has joined #scheme 16:02:13 kuribas [~user@d54C43316.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 16:07:28 jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:09:14 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:10:53 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 16:11:00 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:12:08 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-38-111.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 16:14:15 -!- malkavian [~avli@91.144.171.243] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:15:24 -!- G68196 [~toor@cayce.dropsonde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:06 G68196 [~toor@cayce.dropsonde.net] has joined #scheme 16:18:01 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:21:44 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:22:08 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:23:53 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 16:24:01 -!- humasect [~humasect@d24-235-167-67.home1.cgocable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:57 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 16:35:49 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:35:55 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:38:04 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:39:56 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 16:44:06 -!- hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 16:44:21 espadrine [~thaddee_t@acces2477.res.insa-lyon.fr] has joined #scheme 16:47:24 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:48:53 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 16:52:14 mintsoup [~mintsoup@173-164-33-21-colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 16:53:14 hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has joined #scheme 16:54:33 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:56:54 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:57:53 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-icvbxfvadzelybuu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:49 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:01:09 kuribas` [~user@d54C43316.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 17:01:20 -!- kuribas` [~user@d54C43316.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:35 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C43316.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:01:50 kuribas [~user@d54C43316.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 17:03:05 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 17:07:42 tuubow_ [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:08:17 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:08:18 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:09:45 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:12:05 -!- G68196 [~toor@cayce.dropsonde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:12:12 -!- drwho [~drwho@152-123-174-206.gci.net] has quit [Quit: bbl] 17:13:22 elly: if you haven't read Steele and Sussman's original lambda papers, i highly recommend it 17:13:26 you're in for a treat 17:15:08 G68196 [~toor@cayce.dropsonde.net] has joined #scheme 17:16:23 -!- weinholt [weinholt@2a02:9a0:6:821a:20a:e4ff:fe2d:16e4] has quit [Changing host] 17:16:23 weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 17:17:29 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #scheme 17:18:18 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:18:26 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:18:50 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.65.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:15 *cky* makes a point to read them. 17:19:28 -!- G68196 [~toor@cayce.dropsonde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:19:40 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:19:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:21:12 In general, there are far too many interesting papers/articles/... to read them all, I find 17:23:20 indeed 17:23:32 Yes. 17:23:44 But that simply means I need to spend more time reading and less time on IRC. :-P 17:23:53 -!- bweaver [~bweaver@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: inactive] 17:23:54 but while we're recommending, see "A play on regular expressions" :) 17:24:15 It's actually organised as a play, so it's quite a fun read 17:24:46 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@cmc.beaming.biz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:24:51 I find IRC much more useful... For one, people reply back. For another, things tend to come sorted by relevance a lot better 17:24:52 *ijp* would like to see more of that sort of thing in academia 17:25:29 LeoNerd: You want sorted by relevance? Try stackoverflow.com. :-D 17:25:33 17:25:41 ah 17:25:44 Hah, even 17:25:54 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:25:57 LeoNerd: eli posts answers on SO a lot, and his answers are always top-notch. 17:27:35 eno [~eno@70.137.133.209] has joined #scheme 17:27:37 -!- eno [~eno@70.137.133.209] has quit [Changing host] 17:27:37 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:31:46 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:34:35 joast [~rick@98.145.65.117] has joined #scheme 17:34:44 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:36:30 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:36:49 chromaticwt [~user@71-222-135-103.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 17:36:51 G68196 [~toor@cayce.dropsonde.net] has joined #scheme 17:37:26 LeoNerd: Also, SO is great for helping people (and me in particular) find work: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/36868/13 :-D 17:37:48 ...just in case you needed a bigger plug and all. :-P 17:40:11 -!- porco [~porco@123.114.100.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:24 CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 17:43:38 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:45:23 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:45:23 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:45:23 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:51:11 me in Top 20% for multithreading??? WTF, that has to be a mistake, or everyone is just as clueless/ignorant as I am on SO ;p 17:53:35 Hehehehehe. 17:54:28 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:55:18 -!- phao [phao@187.117.255.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:56:18 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:59:16 *ijp* still hasn't got on the SO bandwagon 17:59:43 Me neither 17:59:53 IRC seems to me far more preferrable 18:01:04 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-149-239.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:44 LeoNerd: But think of all the reputation points and medals you're missing. 18:04:06 If I wanted to win a medal I'd go fight in a war 18:04:25 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:04:56 rudybot: achievement unlocked: wrote y in scheme 18:04:57 ijp: y wont keyboard led toggle everytime i press capsdlock 18:06:13 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:06:13 -!- eno 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[~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:39:41 -!- tuubow_ [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:43:15 eno_ [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:43:15 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 18:47:53 virl [~virl__@85-127-85-80.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #scheme 18:48:09 -!- eno_ [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:49:07 ijp: ;-) 18:50:06 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:50:06 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:50:06 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 18:50:16 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:54:03 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-38-111.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:00:05 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit 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timeout: 272 seconds] 20:35:27 phao [phao@189.98.149.132] has joined #scheme 20:41:24 snizzo [~Claudio@adsl-ull-96-245.51-151.net24.it] has joined #scheme 20:52:08 -!- snizzo [~Claudio@adsl-ull-96-245.51-151.net24.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:53:00 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@dyn1217-56.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 20:53:16 rostayob [~rostayob@dyn1217-56.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 20:53:25 snizzo [~Claudio@host7-8-dynamic.50-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 20:54:14 djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 20:58:20 -!- bigfg [~b_fin_g@r186-48-215-145.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:58:20 bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-48-229-3.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 21:01:49 -!- phao [phao@189.98.149.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:03:05 Is there a standard way to load another scheme file? 21:05:05 load? 21:05:22 r5rs seems to lack a function, and r6rs isn't too clear 21:05:41 (I mean, sure I could read a file and eval it...) 21:05:57 espadrine: again, load. Though in r6rs, you'd usually use a module and import it 21:06:04 rudybot: eval load 21:06:06 ijp: your sandbox is ready 21:06:06 ijp: ; Value: # 21:06:48 rudybot: doc load 21:06:49 ijp: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/eval.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._load)) 21:07:11 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:09:01 ok, thanks. It is indeed in the standard: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_sec_6.6.4 21:09:01 http://tinyurl.com/6uw9o34 21:11:25 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #scheme 21:13:37 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 21:21:47 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:25:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-169.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:26 -!- Sicp [~ongoing@unaffiliated/odaym] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:31:29 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:34:24 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #scheme 21:37:50 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db589e6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:40:25 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-38-111.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:45:52 -!- snizzo [~Claudio@host7-8-dynamic.50-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:47:07 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:48 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #scheme 21:49:06 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@dyn1217-56.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 21:50:51 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:53:49 -!- ysph [~user@mobile-166-147-124-046.mycingular.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:57:01 ale` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-39-245-135.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #scheme 21:58:50 hi, anyone using geiser here? I'm having a problem with the autodoc facility, most argument names are not displayed, I get an _ instead (I'm talking about basic functions like substring for example). 21:58:58 any clue how to solve this issue? 21:59:15 (I'm using racket) 21:59:32 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:01:47 Sicp [~ongoing@unaffiliated/odaym] has joined #scheme 22:04:12 choas [~lars@p4FDC531E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 22:09:08 -!- tuubow_ [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:09:42 -!- choas [~lars@p4FDC531E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:14:20 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:14:52 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:17:09 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #scheme 22:17:50 -!- mmc1 [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:19:08 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:19:47 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 22:21:12 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:22:10 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:24:07 snizzo [~quassel@host7-8-dynamic.50-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 22:24:34 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:25:44 I'm looking for help in SICP, exercise 1.7 22:26:56 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19390574/2012-02-09-002546_1366x768_scrot.png 22:26:57 that 22:27:38 Sicp: in a nutshell, it's a relative test instead of an absolute test. 22:27:43 I thought that the program that had been written until that point did that very task 22:27:54 a relative test 22:27:57 ok 22:28:01 Sicp: they deliberately coded it with a poor design for the threshold 22:28:08 Sicp: so that they could ask for the improvement 22:28:25 Personally, I'd rather keep iterating until the number ceases to change. At that point, you know you've hit the bottom of the floating point number resolution. 22:28:32 (i.e., the change is smaller than an ulp) 22:28:46 see I don't know how to *say* that 22:28:50 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.226] has joined #scheme 22:28:55 Sicp: that's a refinement beyond the exercise. 22:29:03 cky: :~| 22:29:15 qu1j0t3: ? 22:29:26 cky: well of course but the exercise doesn't call for that 22:29:35 first things first 22:29:42 qu1j0t3: An ulp _is_ relative to the number's magnitude! :-P 22:29:59 cky: it brings in a lot of concepts that aren't needed to solve the exercise. such as FP representatin. 22:30:01 +o 22:30:07 :-) 22:30:09 :) 22:30:14 be gnetle with Sicp 22:30:31 ~ 22:31:41 *brendyn* is also trudging through SICP and being confused 22:32:35 oh I see 22:32:41 X is being used in the old test 22:32:44 compared against X 22:32:51 I need to compare against Guess itself 22:35:10 -!- mintsoup [~mintsoup@173-164-33-21-colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:40:15 virl [~virl__@85-127-156-180.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #scheme 22:42:18 -!- bweaver [~bweaver@host-68-169-158-230.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:43:14 -!- ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:38 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:57:20 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:57:53 qu1j0t3, can you finish commenting this for me? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19390574/fullSQRT.scm 22:57:56 it's tiny 22:59:48 i tried adding to mine the ability to check if the sqrt was an integer but i made a mess of it 23:00:08 that's the solution to it, to store old and new value of the guess and keep comparing that 23:00:21 but it's written in another program from the videos and I didn't get it there, mainly the last call 23:00:22 ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 23:00:32 huh? 23:00:39 the one I linked to 23:00:46 that's what you have to implement in 1.7 23:00:52 that's the ..way 23:01:29 nyingen [~jeeves@cpe-98-28-19-62.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:08:10 seems different 23:08:45 tuubow_ [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:09:04 whats f? 23:09:29 that's what I don't know 23:09:41 the way to call it seems obscure because I don't know the math behind it 23:09:48 I don't know what getting a fixed point means 23:10:11 its not too complicated 23:10:22 it can mean a few things, but in this case it means (f x) == x 23:10:40 based on my cursory examination of the scrollback 23:10:49 can you finish commenting the file linked above, turbofail ? 23:10:53 -!- tali713 [~tali713@75.72.193.140] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:11:05 why would i do that? 23:11:08 I don't understand how (iter) was introduced inside and then called later 23:11:15 just so I could get a clearer idea? 23:11:18 and because you're a nice guy 23:12:01 you're supposed to write a sqrt procedure for 1.7. i dont know where you have gotten this fixed point business from 23:12:10 http://www.billthelizard.com/2009/10/sicp-exercises-16-18.html 23:12:17 the method used in that method is what you should use to achieve 1.7 23:12:27 it asks to keep track of guess and how it changes 23:12:43 that's what's done in fixed-point 23:13:02 wait what is there to understand? 23:13:14 what you take for granted, turbofail 23:13:14 ? it just says make a better good-enough? 23:13:16 look for those :P 23:13:22 ok, brendyn , make one 23:13:34 disregard the fixed-point, it's nothing 23:13:39 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 23:13:47 I've already done it, and mine is pretty much the same as in the link i just posted 23:13:52 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:14:05 iter is defined inside... and then called 23:14:14 it's exactly as you stated it 23:14:15 Sicp: You're not understanding the bits with 'WAT'? 23:14:20 yea 23:14:56 iter is a (tail) recursive function, it calls itself 23:14:58 Well, what does (define (...) ... ) do? 23:15:07 (in general) 23:15:14 that's a function which takes parameters 23:15:42 OK, so what does (define (iter ... ) ... ) do? 23:16:44 it's utilizing good-enuf 23:17:01 No, I mean, what would a form like that do in general. 23:17:12 just define a new function 23:17:34 It doesn't *just* define a function. That's what lambda is for. 23:18:55 define is not generally a function creation form, either. What's its primary purpose? 23:19:07 -!- daedric [~daedric@2a01:e0b:1000:21:baac:6fff:fe99:7ada] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:19:36 it gives stuff a name 23:19:37 well that in the program is going to be executed on the spot 23:22:15 there, I was right 23:22:21 Well, more precisely, it makes an "internal definition" that binds a value to a name within the *entire* body that it is written in. 23:22:21 I just had no idea how to SAY that :D 23:22:29 100% 23:22:44 but the tail call is where the shit hits the fan 23:22:51 You're not right unless you can express what you mean to the person who's judging you. :) 23:22:56 definitely 23:23:08 but I was right out spotting a similar pattern in the above program 23:23:35 OK, so you introduce a function bound to the name 'iter' within the scope of the body of the function 'fixed-point'. 23:23:57 true 23:24:05 So, what is the reason for 'WAT' there? 23:24:22 it was clear moments after I linked 23:24:30 Ah, all right. 23:25:04 Is the final WAT clear now as well? 23:25:13 the parameters aren't 23:25:15 who is start 23:25:28 it's any function? 23:25:39 no, f is any function 23:25:48 start is some starting "guess" value 23:26:47 If you trace mentally through the code, it should be clear that start is a number. 23:27:23 see I could've written that, that which is shown in brendyn's link 23:27:28 the entire point of this is, for a given function f, find an argument x for which f applied to x gives you x back 23:27:36 but I still can't wrap my head around how extremely abstracted everything is 23:27:58 I mean I know that I should now be comparing guess against its old version 23:28:10 but I look at the code and think, but I have X and Guess, not Guess and Old_Guess 23:28:26 it doesn't cross my mind that I can just MAKE it that 23:28:30 trapped in code 23:37:10 rostayob [~rostayob@02d99acf.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 23:40:19 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:48:41 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 23:52:27 daedric [~daedric@2a01:e0b:1000:21:baac:6fff:fe99:7ada] has joined #scheme 23:54:28 Sicp: guess becomes old guess 23:54:37 yea 23:58:12 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-100.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:59:43 notzmv [~zmv@186.204.150.191] has joined #scheme