00:00:24 kpal [~kpal@46.252.124.61] has joined #scheme 00:01:40 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-167-140.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:11:41 -!- albert [~albert@adsl-71-156-44-252.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:02 turbofail [~user@99-121-57-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:20:26 lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme 00:21:18 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-71-129-61-74.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 00:22:49 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-107-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:28:41 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51:46 -!- tauntaun [~user@li327-197.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:53:37 tauntaun [~user@li327-197.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 00:56:28 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:03:32 bpalmer [user@unaffiliated/bpalmer] has joined #scheme 01:04:06 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:08:17 pandeiro_ [~pandeiro@bd21c422.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 01:09:20 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:09:24 khisanth_ [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #scheme 01:10:18 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 01:10:35 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@bd21c422.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:17:47 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 01:22:00 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-71-129-61-74.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:22:36 bfg9000 [~BFV@r190-135-9-19.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 01:26:05 -!- bfig [~BFV@r186-52-179-240.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:26:50 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-145-17.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:28:41 -!- PiRSquared17|AFK is now known as PiRSquared17 01:39:06 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 01:40:01 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-107-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:42:41 martixy [martixy@78.90.38.181] has joined #scheme 01:43:57 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-128-176.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 01:44:49 Hey... Up until 10 mins ago I have no idea what LISP was. That said, could someone help me understand this bit here: http://ideone.com/Oqvpu (a rewrite to something C-like would also work). 01:44:58 Got redirected here from #lisp 01:45:31 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@93-40-130-107.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 01:49:12 martixy, dynamic programming plus recursion. which part do you not understand? 01:49:37 (sort of dynamic programming, you only need the memo table) 01:49:47 The um... syntax mostly. 01:49:48 martixy: less than 50 pages to learn scheme: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-2.html#%_toc_start 01:49:49 http://tinyurl.com/yc5qso 01:50:13 martixy, syntax is simple. you can guess what most operators do. the syntax is (operator operand1 operand 2...) 01:53:33 Anyone willing to traslate this to something C, so I can make direct parallels? 01:54:10 For what purpose? 01:54:11 martixy: translation to C is left to scheme compilers. 01:54:21 martixy: read r5rs url above. 01:56:12 For the purpose that it would probably be faster than trying to start with lesson 0. 01:56:29 50 pages 01:56:37 -!- kpal [~kpal@46.252.124.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:56:57 martixy: Do you want to learn Scheme? 01:58:03 Not for the sake of learning it, no... Most I wanted to figure out the algorithm in the above piece of code. 01:59:08 martixy: well, is there any part of that in particular that confuses you? 01:59:34 If you've tackled the problem in C, you would probably see the parallels to the scheme code directly. 02:01:23 I stumbled with this while searching for ideas on how to solve that problem. I haven't actually written it yet in anything. 02:03:08 You could get some Scheme interpreter and type in pieces of the code at a time, and see what it does. 02:03:53 martixy: Is this homework? 02:04:11 martixy, cond is probably the most un-C-like thing there. It's kind of like a chain of if elseif elseif elseif else 02:05:14 rudybot: are there too many cooks here? 02:05:14 ijp: "Kill connection after this many seconds if there is no activity." 02:05:26 No, no homework, just an interesting problem I found. dsmith, thanks for the clarification 02:08:45 martixy, Scheme is easier than C. Go ahead and get that r5rs doc. It's not hard at all. 02:09:05 :) 02:10:29 Depends on what you are used to. 02:11:24 i'm used to C (25 years) and I still think SCheme is simpler. 02:11:50 and much more concise :) 02:13:51 martixy, Yep. I've got about 25 years of C too. What qu1j0t3 said. 02:15:09 So what you are saying is "It's really a nice, worthwile language for reasons as yet unknown to you" :) 02:15:29 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:16:32 martixy: pretty much. :) 02:16:40 martixy: but that can be fixed in a few hours 02:19:25 That part is better than most others. 02:21:04 dude it is not hard, just read the keywords. it is almost like natural language, only you don't have to learn precedences (they all work the same) 02:21:57 Yes, I got it, just making smalltalk 02:22:03 :) 02:26:29 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:35:37 pandeiro__ [~pandeiro@bd21c422.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 02:36:34 hba [~hba@187.171.194.59] has joined #scheme 02:37:16 -!- pandeiro__ is now known as pandeiro 02:38:07 -!- pandeiro_ [~pandeiro@bd21c422.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:39:50 martixy, Actually, cond is more like a chain of ?: 02:41:05 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-128-176.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:43:45 -!- ijp [~user@host86-173-115-109.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: The garbage collector got me] 02:44:11 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:46:53 (if p1? r1 (if p2? r2 (if p3? r3 (if p4? r4 ...)))) 02:48:33 MengZhang [~MengZhang@203.208.61.212] has joined #scheme 02:52:09 albert [~albert@adsl-71-156-44-252.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:02:29 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-107-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:06:43 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:18:21 -!- martixy [martixy@78.90.38.181] has quit [] 03:19:45 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:23:34 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-107-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:24:37 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@bd21c422.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: Out of quarters] 03:34:05 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:38:00 -!- hba [~hba@187.171.194.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:38:12 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Quit: ddp] 03:39:53 hba [~hba@189.130.178.126] has joined #scheme 03:42:03 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:45:18 Except, cond is even cooler than that. 03:46:16 Basically, cond's syntax is: (cond cl1 cl2 ...), where cl1, cl2, etc. are clauses. There are four types of clauses: 03:46:42 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 03:47:07 1. (test result). This is the most commonly-seen form, which is the (p1? r1) form that penryu wrote out. If test is true, returns result, else go to next clause. 03:47:32 2. (expr). If expr is true, returns expr. Otherwise, go to next clause. 03:48:21 3. (expr => func). If expr is true, then call func with expr as its argument. 03:48:37 4. (else expr). Always return expr. 03:49:06 It's the combination of all these types that makes cond so awesome. :-) 03:56:29 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-107-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:56:38 cky, how does (expr => func) work? what is 'true' ? 03:56:49 or is func always called with #t ? 03:56:50 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #scheme 03:57:06 bfg9000: Anything that is not #f is considered true in Scheme. 03:57:17 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-107-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:57:19 Example: 03:57:30 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:57:39 rudybot: (define alist '((foo . 1) (bar . 2) (baz . 3))) 03:57:39 cky: your sandbox is ready 03:57:39 cky: Done. 03:57:56 rudybot: (cond ((assoc 'foo alist) => cdr)) 03:57:57 cky: ; Value: 1 03:58:00 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-2.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:58:05 rudybot: (cond ((assoc 'baz alist) => cdr)) 03:58:05 cky: ; Value: 3 03:58:44 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-2.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:59:03 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 03:59:25 cool 03:59:34 Yes, it's very handy. 04:00:07 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:00:13 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-182.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:00:27 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-182.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:01:30 freakazoid [~seanl@c-67-164-106-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:02:53 jcowan [~John@p-68-237-140-232.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #scheme 04:03:28 hoi 04:04:41 -!- EvanR [~evan@unaffiliated/evanr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:05:17 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:14:56 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 04:17:49 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-107-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:22:02 -!- freakazoid [~seanl@c-67-164-106-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:22:47 I don't think I'm ready for cond's cool factor. 04:22:57 *penryu* slinks back to nested if's 04:23:00 -!- PiRSquared17 [~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:25:52 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-107-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:26:43 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:27:12 penryu: :-O 04:27:19 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 04:27:45 -!- pjb is now known as Guest27130 04:27:58 -!- Guest27130 is now known as pjb` 04:28:08 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 04:29:58 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Quit: ddp] 04:35:35 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:37:24 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-154-202.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:37:24 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-154-202.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:37:24 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 04:39:49 I keed. I keed. 04:42:15 bfg9000, penryu: I have an example where types 2, 3, and 4 are all used: http://stackoverflow.com/a/8089910/13 04:45:29 I was unaware of 2 & 3. 1 & 4 I've used several times. 04:46:25 penryu: Now, you've seen them all. :-) 04:47:21 -!- albert [~albert@adsl-71-156-44-252.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:48:12 albert [~albert@adsl-71-156-44-252.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:50:42 rudybot: eval (case 'i ((a o u) 'determiner-sharing) ((e i y) => (lambda (gap) (values gap 'non-constituent))) (else 'ncc-psc)) 04:50:42 ski: error: #:1:48: =>: arrow not allowed as an expression in: => 04:51:09 at first I wasn't sure how (3) would be that useful. then I remembered (a) the duality of '() and #f, and (b) the behavior of the mem* functions 04:51:51 (a) ? 04:51:56 hrm. maybe not duality. 04:52:06 just that '() is a false value, just like #f. 04:52:24 rudybot: (if '() 'true-value 'false-value) 04:52:24 ski: ; Value: true-value 04:52:48 you might be thinking of some other lisp 04:53:53 hrm. 04:55:26 well shit. I was thinking of another. elisp specifically. my bad. 04:55:59 in Scheme, only `#f' is considered a false value, all others are considered true values 04:57:49 right. elisp doesn't even have an explicit false value. 04:58:23 just '() as an alias for nil 04:58:40 *ski* nods 04:58:42 so, I guess mostly the mem* functions make the 3rd form of cond useful 04:59:14 i suppose `(or (foo) (bar))' as well 04:59:58 ah, yes. 05:03:18 startling [~startling@adsl-99-24-228-124.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:03:55 -!- startling [~startling@adsl-99-24-228-124.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:04:18 SRFI 61 defines a guarded variant of => that makes it even more useful. 05:05:13 It adds a form (generator guard => receiver), where generator can return multiple values, which both guard and receiver will receive. 05:05:28 If the guard returns a true value, then the receiver is called with the same values given to guard. 05:06:07 *ski* still finds `=>' here a bit clunky 05:06:24 It's a matter of taste, for sure. 05:07:05 i suppose if i want to do this kind of thing, the `match' form would be more appropriate 05:09:53 Right. 05:10:08 Is there some kind of SRFI for match? I mean, for example, Chibi's and Racket's versions are somewhat divergent. 05:10:59 No. 05:11:46 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:11:59 Didn't think so. 05:12:08 Chibi's is a superset of Wright's, which is very widely used. The Chibi implementation is actually the default in several Schemes (Chibi, Chicken, Guile, Mosh at least). 05:12:41 foof: I happen to think Chibi's version is awesomesauce (I used it to reimplement SRFI 41's stream-match quite successfully). 05:12:48 The R7RS large language will standardize a match syntax. 05:13:21 Racket's is totally different, and probably a better design in general. 05:13:29 Cool! I use the = and ? features extensively, in my version of stream-match. IIRC, Racket's match lacks one or the other (can't remember which). 05:13:33 (Racket also has an implementation of a Wright-alike.) 05:13:36 I don't think the Wright syntax is necessarily the best, but for standardization we'll probably end up with some variant of it. 05:13:57 (At least, it did a few years ago; I don't know whether it still does.) 05:15:43 Part of me thinks the Racket approach is better, but part of me really likes the conciseness and WYSIWYG nature of the Wright syntax. 05:15:58 startling [~startling@adsl-99-24-228-124.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:28:29 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 05:32:19 foof: Well, that's why democracy was invented. 05:40:58 Yeah... Cleisthenes was worried about getting the pattern matching syntax wrong. 05:41:37 I thought it was invented so the male land-owning Greeks could feel less guilty about how they divvied up their slaves? 05:45:20 How do you tell male land apart from female land? 05:46:13 Male land has obelisks. 05:49:05 And female land has asterisks. 05:49:31 Someone read Asterix a little too much. ;-) 05:49:37 it's full of stars! 05:50:31 Par Toutatis! 06:03:34 Hey everyone, could you try and explain symbols to someone used to python? 06:04:42 startling: Say you read in a form like (string-append "Hello, " "world!"). 06:04:49 How would you represent string-append? 06:05:10 Surely, it can't be a string, otherwise it'd become ("string-append" "Hello, " "world!"). 06:05:28 Ils sont fous, ces schemers! 06:05:37 startling: Symbols are like the strings Python returns from "intern", except that they are a separate type disjoint from strings. 06:05:54 So a sort of meta-string. 06:05:56 jcowan explained it better. :-P 06:06:07 startling: It's not useful to think of them as strings, really. 06:06:35 However, Scheme strings are mutable, unlike Python strings and Scheme symbols. 06:07:01 So really Scheme strings are like vectors holding characters, except that they are a type disjoint from vectors. 06:07:10 Symbols are objects with identity, which also have names by which we can refer to them. 06:07:31 Alright, I think I understand. 06:07:34 Riastradh: So are strings. 06:07:52 Strings don't have names by which we refer to them. 06:08:09 So python avoids using using symbols by having internal dictionaries with a string as a key? 06:08:09 internally, symbols are usually implemented with a symbol table(which maps string to index) 06:08:14 startling: Yes. 06:08:25 Specifically, an interned string. 06:08:29 (Normally). 06:08:37 Yeah. Thanks! 06:08:54 the dictionaries aren't that internal in python. You can take a look at __builtins__ yourself, for example. 06:08:54 See http://docs.python.org/library/functions.html#intern 06:08:55 "symbols are unique values"? 06:09:08 startling: As jcowan said, though, at the language level, symbols and strings are distinct types. 06:09:10 Riastradh: I think the name of a string is the string. 06:09:16 startling: Strings cannot be used as symbols, nor vice versa. 06:09:20 Unlike, say, "Haddock's Eyes" 06:09:32 cky: right. got it. 06:09:56 oh, never mind, interned strings have another dictionary abstraction. Sorry. 06:09:59 startling: Scheme has no notion of subtypes, except for the subtypes of the number type. 06:10:01 jcowan, say you have a string "foo", and I have the sequence of characters `f o o' in mind. Can I get your string without asking you politely, or following you into a dark alley and abstracting it from you by force? 06:10:15 startling: You can use symbol->string to get the string version of a symbol (though changes to the string will not alter the symbol), and string->symbol will intern the string as a symbol. 06:10:35 startling: In the latter case, changing the string subsequently will not affect the symbol, either. 06:10:57 Riastradh: No. I have the name "John Cowan", but you cannot reliably get me by dereferencing this name; see http://ccil.org/~cowan/notme.html 06:11:14 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 06:11:22 cky: Actually, the result of changing a string retunred by symbol->string is not defined. 06:11:42 On the other hand, if you have the symbol FOO, and I have the sequence of characters `f o o' in mind, I can get at the same symbol as you have. 06:11:57 jcowan: Thanks. I stand corrected. 06:12:12 Riastradh: IOW, symbols have unique names. 06:12:41 Similarly, a Python interned string has a unique name; if you have `f o o' you can stringify it and intern it. 06:13:19 The only difference is that Scheme symbols are not strings, whereas Python interned strings are Python (immutable) strings. 06:13:24 *ski* thinks "unique" is a second-order predicate 06:17:07 No, it doesn't have to be. 06:17:29 "There is no god but Allah" can be interpreted as "Every god is identical with Allah", and identity is not second-order. 06:27:01 otakutom_ [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:27:24 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:33:51 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:34:05 -!- otakutom_ [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:35:15 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has 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