00:05:49 kenanb: Not quite - I'm redesigning the snow system. 00:06:21 So it's really Snow2. 00:06:35 foof: really? that is cool, it seemed like such a promising project 00:06:50 was that Marc Feeley's project originally? 00:06:55 yes 00:07:06 is there a git page for it? 00:07:11 or something like that? 00:07:20 i mean for your redesign 00:07:51 Personally I think common-scheme (which pre-dates snow) was a better design, but I'm biased :) 00:08:20 why exactly? were you the man behind common-scheme? 00:08:26 yes 00:08:46 No repo up yet. I was catching up on the 5th R7RS draft and release of Chibi, and now I'm going to start working on snow. 00:09:12 who are you mate? 00:09:19 if it is not rude to ask 00:09:37 pardon me if it is 00:11:19 well, foof is unknown. 00:12:31 kenanb: I'm Alex Shinn. 00:12:59 ah, cool. Chibi seems powerful man, congrats 00:15:04 Thanks. It's currently a niche. I'd recommend a native compiling scheme for general development. 00:15:51 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@64.134.188.7] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:16:29 i am kind of a gambit fan but when i get deeper i find some ad-hoc implementations of things like namespaces, etc. in fact that is the only thing that bothers me with gambit. i like the way you seem to handle the implementation of chibi, you seem to foresee many needs from start 00:17:32 i hope it grows into a high quality implementation in time 00:18:43 but may i ask why you don't choose to keep working on common-scheme instead of a redesign of snow if you like it more 00:20:08 well, some aspects of snow are better, and I like the name 00:20:17 anyway, I have to get to work 00:20:21 good enuf 00:20:28 ok, good luck mate, thanks for the answers 00:20:42 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@93-40-82-9.ip37.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 00:33:39 huh, what. 00:33:50 A-normal form can be viewed as a state machine definition 00:33:53 where IP 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05:36:56 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 05:41:09 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:07:57 githogori [~githogori@c-107-3-152-107.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:30:04 -!- freakazoid [~seanl@c-67-164-106-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:34:02 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:35:02 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 06:36:11 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 06:39:31 confab [~win7@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:56:39 nataraj\ [~user@117.207.192.194] has joined #scheme 06:56:44 Hi 06:57:21 which scheme is best for devoloping web sites, something in the lines of php? 06:59:29 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Quit: ddp] 07:01:58 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 07:05:28 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find from the internet/maillist is outdated 09:52:03 woonie [~woonie@bb219-74-160-94.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme 10:13:00 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:22:12 -!- MengZhang [~MengZhang@203.208.61.212] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:31:12 MengZhang [~MengZhang@203.208.61.212] has joined #scheme 10:37:01 djcb [~user@217.111.203.254] has joined #scheme 10:44:38 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-160-249.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:53:00 masm [~masm@2.80.167.140] has joined #scheme 11:00:09 -!- djcb [~user@217.111.203.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:05:51 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.254.37] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 11:10:59 leo2007 [~leo@123.123.254.37] has joined #scheme 11:18:29 -!- mmc [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:30:31 -!- woonie [~woonie@bb219-74-160-94.singnet.com.sg] 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[~user@host86-173-115-109.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:07:04 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:07:32 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:31 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 17:09:52 poincare101 [~Dhaivat_P@CPE-65-27-96-82.new.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:10:26 Hi everyone. I'm trying to go through SICP, what scheme interpreter should I use? MIT-Scheme is getting on my nerves, I can't get it to compile a single thing! 17:11:20 poincare101: Many people seem to find success with Racket, using the neilv/sicp PLaneT module. 17:12:19 What happens when you try to compile something? 17:14:05 Riastradh, have you tried chicken? 17:14:11 Riastradh: I don't know how to! 17:15:02 Well, what is the problem you are trying to solve, of which you think compiling something is a subproblem? 17:15:16 Why do you want to compile? 17:15:27 Riastradh: trying to run some damn code 17:15:36 Riastradh: without the stupid Edwin editor 17:15:51 Riastradh: and the REPL, which is also dismal 17:16:00 Are you using Windows or Unix? 17:16:06 Riastradh: *nix 17:17:03 Where is the code you want to run? Is it in your head, or in a file, or in an Edwin buffer, or...? 17:19:56 Riastradh: in a file and in my head 17:20:12 I would do (load "file.scm") 17:20:21 pjb: yes, but that doesn't output the results! 17:21:04 Because you didn't write any code to output results. 17:21:09 Add (display result) in your file. 17:21:39 Either give a name to your results (or a name to the procedure to compute them), and refer to that at the REPL; or tell your file to output the results. 17:22:20 Indeed, it's customary to (load "my-program.scm") and then call (my-program), assuming my-program.scm defines a main function my-program. 17:33:54 tuubow [~adityavit@cpe-69-203-116-243.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:35:52 -!- zhangkaizhao [~zhangkaiz@27.47.16.73] has quit [Quit: ] 17:37:40 or csi -s file.scm ??! 17:55:01 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:00:55 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:01:42 bubo 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[~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:43:34 masm [~masm@bl19-167-140.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 21:46:34 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-167-140.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:31 -!- confab [~win7@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:09:54 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@bd21c422.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: Out of quarters] 22:09:56 masm [~masm@bl19-167-140.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 22:10:03 arthurmaciel [~user@186.204.126.4] has joined #scheme 22:10:07 hello! 22:10:19 arthurmaciel: hi 22:12:40 I have just read from a person who works with medical informatics that we should use OOP to be able to reuse components (when designing and implementing electronic health records). It really does not sound to me that OOP is the only way to reusing code. Does it make sense to any of you? (I'm a layman) 22:12:59 OOP is most certainly not the only way to reuse code. 22:13:13 it's a surprisingly emotional subject among hackers. 22:13:19 lol 22:13:38 For instance, I think OOP is about 80% scam. Many people, though, swear by it 22:13:42 *shrug* 22:14:39 This is a (by-now sorta old) essay that strongly influenced my anti-OO prejudice: http://www.paulgraham.com/noop.html 22:15:48 offby1: thank you very much! I'll read it carefully. 22:16:06 Can you define `object-oriented'? 22:16:15 that too ) 22:16:17 :) 22:16:32 Riastradh: that was the second hit for "site:paulgraham.com oop" :-) 22:16:53 Riastradh: yes :) 22:17:06 Riastradh: "object-oriented" means "like in Smalltalk." 22:17:17 Ref. Alan Kay 22:17:20 -!- BFG_ninethousand is now known as bfig 22:17:27 If so, what's the chance that your interlocutor shares your definition? (Answer: Somewhere between zero and epsilon.) If not, what good is it as a term in conversation to convey information? (Answer: Not much.) 22:17:57 "object-oriented" means "I invented the term 'object-oriented', by golly, and I sure didn't envision <>" 22:18:54 arthurmaciel, it is a programming paradigm. do you know what programming is about? 22:19:02 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-36-234-205.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:19:04 (For extra credit: Does your interlocutor, who is strongly attached to a particular definition of `object-oriented', know who Alan Kay is?) 22:19:34 Well... 22:19:48 Working for large corporation has some benefits. 22:19:57 pothos [~pothos@114-36-234-205.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 22:20:00 You learn how stupid programmers can be. 22:22:08 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-36-234-205.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:22:25 pothos [~pothos@114-36-234-205.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 22:23:59 Riastradh: I really want to believe that my interlocutor has read a little bit about OOAD by Booch, but I confess that in terms of implementation she is thinking about PHP, classes, inheritance, public, private, protected and other loose ideas you can find of when you google the terms. 22:24:28 bfig: Hm... I have a vague concept of organising ideas in a way computers can understand and execute what you want them to do ;) 22:25:09 arthurmaciel, ok, that is a accurate enough. so you ask then, what does oop mean in this context? 22:25:24 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-36-234-205.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:43 pothos [~pothos@114-36-234-205.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 22:25:46 think about a program as a 'description of something you want to compute' 22:26:19 now, you have a program that sorts a list, then another program who sums all the elements of a list. how do you put them to work together? 22:27:07 freakazoid [~seanl@c-67-164-106-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:27:13 bfig: probably she would answer that OOP is a way to describe what you want to compute in a more 'realistic' (for god's sake) way, modeling the program closer to what we perceive in real life. 22:27:37 -!- freakazoid [~seanl@c-67-164-106-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:27:53 arthurmaciel, i'm not asking about what your friend thinks: the important is that you understand what it means to use OOP. 22:28:17 bfig: you can call them separately with no problem, or you can join them 'inside' an object called list 22:28:44 arthurmaciel, suppose you want to sort the list, then sum every number 22:28:56 describe what you would do with list L 22:29:10 I like sorting lists. Maybe you could sort it twice, just for good measure. 22:29:26 :) 22:29:28 That'll make doubly sure you get the sum correct. 22:29:49 whatever you do, sort it a prime number of times 22:30:13 bfig: for me (define sum-of-list-elements (sum-every-number (sort L))) would be ok. 22:30:16 arthurmaciel: Booch is shocking revelation to OOP lovers. 22:30:48 arthurmaciel, i thought you were a layman, not a scheme programmer :p 22:31:22 bfig: I consider myself a layman in terms of design. I know how to do stuff, but not properly, if you know what I mean. 22:31:24 if you know how to program you can probably get your answers in what is presented in SICP as 'dispatch tables' 22:31:59 bfig: I brought SICP from my parents house today! I'll check it 22:32:51 an object is an abstract program element, a sort of 'environment'. it is completely encapsulated in itself, has (possibly) state, identity, and it communicates with the external world through it's 'methods' 22:33:17 bfig: yes, it makes sense 22:33:26 identity means that two objects might be identical copies but can be distinguished 22:33:38 ok 22:34:02 bfig: perhaps it is better to take relation between objects and closures into account somehow. 22:34:26 (This is bfig's definition of `object', which is different from, say, the use of the term in the R5RS, or in Common Lisp, or in C, or...) 22:34:45 ASau: I have difficulty to understand closures, probably because there isn't a translation of that word into Portuguese. 22:34:52 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-41.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:34:57 Riastradh: ok 22:35:31 arthurmaciel, have you seen chapter 3 (SICP) under dispatch tables? 22:35:40 bfig: I'll get the book now. 22:35:45 j/m 22:38:17 the idea behind oop is to have a well defined hierarchy of 'computational entities' (objects). Each object forms part of a (possibly join) lattice, where A < B means B implements all methods of A. 22:39:55 actually, what i just said is not regarding to an object but to a class (and objects are entities that live under the rules of a class) 22:40:04 bfig: I see. 22:40:22 the class is uniform in behavior but it doesn't represent an identity, the object does 22:40:30 do you have sicp there? 22:40:45 bfig: but as you say it has much more to do with organising your code than trying to represent better the reality. 22:41:04 bfig: I have it in my hands, but I can't find the term 'dispatch tables' in chapter 3 22:41:17 maybe it's 2 and something, let me google 22:41:51 arthurmaciel, 2.5 - generic operators 22:44:03 (I'm reading a bit) 22:45:24 arthurmaciel, that is not *quite* oop, but it shows the kind of genericity we usually try to find in code. we have the concept of 'number', which has 'sub concepts': Rational, Complex, Real... 22:46:01 a 'number' is a concept related to mathematical operators + - * / 22:46:33 bfig: neither CLOS nor ECMAscript nor Lua have well-defined hierarchy. 22:46:41 (So what is a `number', anyway?) 22:47:43 Riastradh: are you going to pay my health care if I have my brain melt by your questions?? 22:47:47 ASau, well, it doesn't need to be a join semilattice or anything, i just know java/C#/C++ object model but i know better than to assume it. In any case, it is just for illustrative purposes 22:48:17 bfig: neither of those languages is close to grounds of OOP. 22:48:30 bfig: in particular Alan Kay didn't meant them :) 22:49:12 well, i'd be interested in a source to read about the subject 22:49:18 bfig: I understand. When I have used OOP in C++ and PHP I realized I could organise better my code and it was less error prone. But what I question is the same of PG: isn't it too much bloatted? 22:49:31 PG? 22:50:33 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:32 ddp [~ddp@anon-157-26.relakks.com] has joined #scheme 22:56:55 bfig: Paul Graham 22:57:40 bfig: of course and answer 'depends on your implementation' is possible, but need to see more advantages of OOP. 22:57:50 it is bloated like hell (at least what i know to be OOP) 22:58:11 for GUIs it makes sense to me. 22:58:16 (like Qt project) 22:58:21 It makes sense for many things. 22:58:36 Unfortunatly, not everything fits minimalistic schemes. 22:59:01 -!- xpololz [~xpol@50.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:02:35 OOP to me means only messaging, local retention and protection and 23:02:35 hiding of state-process, and extreme late-binding of all things. <- this is Allan Kay's definition of OOP 23:02:38 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-76-105-198-230.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:04:39 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-97-240.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:05:07 bfig, Riastradh, offby1 and Asau, thank you for the help and discussion. 23:05:33 =) 23:10:56 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-107-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:19:38 maybe it is a good time to restate my question from the other day: why is it not possible to make a sort of 'forced context capture' like this: (begin (define (localcontext a) (let ((var a)) (lambda (x) (eval x)))) (define x (localcontext 3)) (x '(+ 1 var))) ? 23:23:46 rudybot: eval (begin (define (localcontext a) (lambda (x) ((eval `(lambda (var) ,x) (scheme-report-environment 5)) a))) (define x (localcontext 3)) (x '(+ 1 var))) 23:23:47 Riastradh: your r5rs sandbox is ready 23:23:47 Riastradh: ; Value: 4 23:27:51 Riastradh, awesome :) 23:28:29 why do you add (scheme-report-environment 5) ? 23:29:10 rudybot: (begin (define (localcontext a) (let ((var a)) (lambda (x) (eval `(let ((var ,var)) ,x))))) (define x (localcontext 3)) (x '(+ 1 var))) 23:29:10 pjb: error: procedure meval: expects 2 arguments, given 1: (mcons 'let (mcons (mcons (mcons 'var (mcons 3))) (mcons (mcons '+ (mcons 1 (mcons 'var)))))) 23:29:40 isn't it an implicit parameter ? why can i execute (eval '(+ 1 1)) ? 23:29:48 { ) } 23:30:05 (i'm using csi 23:30:07 ) 23:30:12 rudybot: (begin (define (localcontext a) (let ((var a)) (lambda (x) (eval `(let ((var ,var)) ,x) (interaction-environment))))) (define x (localcontext 3)) (x '(+ 1 var))) 23:30:13 pjb: ; Value: 4 23:34:55 No, bfig. EVAL takes three arguments. 23:35:05 ...excuse me, two. 23:35:10 pandeiro [~pandeiro@bd21c422.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 23:35:22 bfig, if I didn't say what environment to evaluate it in, what environment would it be evaluated in? 23:35:36 ASau [~user@95-27-174-189.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 23:35:54 pjb, using LET like that doesn't work in general. There are no evaluation rules for objects that are neither symbols nor lists nor self-evaluating. 23:36:11 Further, who knows what you'll find in the interaction environment? 23:37:59 well, this is most likely a consequence of not understanding (myself) how eval works, since it seems to work differently than a scoped operator (precisely because you can set the scope where it is working). but in any case, since it is executed inside a 'let ((var a)) ...', i'd assume it will use the same context 23:40:34 Lexical scope is a static property of programs. You determine the meaning of the name x in (let ((x 5)) (list (f x) (g x))), and all possible references to it, by looking at the text of the program, independent of what values f and g might happen to have at run-time. 23:41:25 You can reliably replace the name x by the name y in this program without changing the semantics. 23:42:51 Riastradh: I'd expect all scheme expression to be eval-uable. Modulo the environment all right. The choice between interaction-environment and rnrs-environment depending on the application. 23:42:52 Consider the program (let* ((x (cons 0 0)) (y (f))) (eq? x y)). This is guaranteed to yield false if it returns anything at all. 23:43:17 pjb, the behaviour of (eval (lambda (x) x) ) is unspecified, for any . 23:43:30 Riastradh: why? 23:43:48 I'd expect it to return a procedure. 23:44:23 Aren't procedure self-evaluating? 23:44:29 (eval '(lambda (x) x) (scheme-report-environment 5)) would certainly yield a procedure. 23:44:37 No, procedures are not necessarily self-evaluating. 23:45:46 bfig, now, suppose I had (define (f) (eval 'x)). What would you expect (let* ((x (cons 0 0)) (y (f))) (eq? x y)) to yield? 23:45:52 what i wanted to do (not because i needed to, but because i found it interesting) was to use set! inside the eval :D 23:46:24 It's better to avoid SET! and pretend it doesn't exist except in corner cases of macros where you need to worry about the possibility of someone using it... 23:46:49 i'm just reading SICP and they use it. i still don't really know how to program scheme :) 23:52:55 -!- jao is now known as waldorf 23:53:08 -!- waldorf is now known as jao 23:58:09 hm... http://socialcam.com/jobs/problems so i've got the second one working with a simple backtracking graph coloring algorithm, but i'm debating whether to go with a fancier method 23:59:07 woonie [~woonie@bb219-74-160-94.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme