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(state self) 'sleeping)] 02:36:20 -!- foof [~user@li126-140.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:37:19 foof [~user@li126-140.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 02:40:42 -!- freakazoid [~seanl@66.220.144.73] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:40:43 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #scheme 02:43:06 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.194.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:51:34 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:51:51 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:55:16 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:55:42 31NAAF8RG [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 02:56:10 drdo [~user@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 02:56:31 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:19:34 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:19:52 ddp [~ddp@93.182.131.6] has joined #scheme 03:27:39 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-150-113.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:30:29 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:33:22 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:34:10 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 03:41:10 *foof* watches the tumbleweeds roll by in #scheme 03:47:59 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:53:06 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-9.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:56:27 Would they still have tumbled by if you hadn't observed them? Schroedinger's tumbleweed... 04:00:52 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 04:07:22 *offby1* wonders if Riastradh existed for the last four months 04:07:59 Nope. I've been in oblivion. 04:08:49 case closed. Next! 04:09:01 (by the way, what was oblivion like? Was it catered?) 04:09:27 Kinda, but the food was mediocre, and pretty repetitive. 04:10:01 There was an Occupy Oblivion, but the cops never worked up the inclination to boot them out. 04:10:44 what is the most stable scheme implementation, guile? 04:11:27 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:11:50 *ski* suspects that T is pretty stable 04:12:06 `Stable' in what sense? Not changing? Yeah, T isn't changing... 04:12:33 precisely 04:12:38 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.229] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:13:38 stable as in reliable, and secure... 04:14:38 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-9.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:15:32 Oh, they're all pretty unreliable for lots of tasks, and nobody much cares about security... 04:17:52 chromaticwt: Chicken and Racket have sandboxing utilities if security is your primary concern, but I'm not sure how secure they really are. Most implementations leak into their internals. 04:18:39 Oh, but guile is not likely your best bet either way. 04:19:08 -!- bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:21:04 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:21:51 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.229] has joined #scheme 04:24:38 chromaticwt: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/sandbox 04:26:45 That should be safe modulo bugs in chicken itself, and you're careful what you make available, and assuming no "interesting" reader extensions have been provided. 04:27:36 `modulo bugs in chicken' 04:27:40 :) 04:29:21 Also consider Gambit and MIT-Scheme, which arguably provide better stability at the expense of features. And I don't think there's any way to sandbox in Gambit (I believe the namespace handling is always exposed). 04:30:08 Gambit is very actively maintained and is used in some commercial products. 04:42:05 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:50:51 freakazoid [~seanl@c-67-164-106-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:56:37 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #scheme 05:14:41 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-233.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:14:45 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:18:47 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h88n2c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:20:05 add^_ [~add^_^@h178n4c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 05:25:00 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:32:27 -!- foof [~user@li126-140.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 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kanru is now known as ruru 08:26:33 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 08:33:55 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:34:12 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 08:37:47 -!- foof [~user@li126-140.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:39:59 foof [~user@li126-140.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 08:42:25 T is definitely more stable than . 08:44:28 Less than  though, on which we always fall, but from which we never fall. 08:44:39 tom_i [~thomasing@cmc.beaming.biz] has joined #scheme 08:48:27 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-199-161.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:52:06 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:11:24 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f77b209.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:11:36 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4d0675bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 09:19:45 cswords [~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:28:49 -!- 31NAAF8RG [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:28 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 09:52:19 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:52:51 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 09:54:20 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 10:02:04 -!- Brendan_T [~Brendan_T@2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fecf:b0fd] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:03:06 Operaist2 [~OperaIst@ppp-124-122-70-115.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #scheme 10:03:08 can somebody explain letrec to me? 10:03:14 my mind is getting blown 10:03:19 can somebody explain letrec to me? 10:03:41 Yeah. 10:03:46 Do you have questions? 10:03:53 Like, anything specific? 10:03:53 how does it work lol 10:03:58 Uh. 10:04:02 Do you know macros? 10:04:12 you're supposed to be able to declare procedures that are mutually recursive 10:04:16 but that's kinda dumb 10:04:26 It's more than that. 10:04:34 You can define procedures that call themselves. 10:04:40 So you can do like 10:05:13 (letrec ([fact (lambda (n) (if (zero? n) 1 (* n (fact (sub1 n)))))]) (fact 5) 10:05:25 ) 10:05:55 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 10:06:37 Mutual recursion isn't terrible. 10:07:12 The classic example is even? and odd? 10:07:23 So you can do something like: 10:08:23 (letrec ([even? (lambda (n) (if (zero? n) #t (odd? (sub1 n))))] [odd (lambda (n) (if (zero? n) #f (even? (sub1 n))))]) (even? 100)) 10:09:10 And letrec works by first defining each variable (using a set! or some other messy hack) and then setting each one in turn so that when they finally get called, everything works out. 10:09:43 how do you know how much space do you need beforehand 10:09:47 to hold the variable? 10:10:03 Scheme doesn't work that way. 10:10:38 Everything is pointers. 10:10:46 Well, that isn't quite the way you want to think about them, but it will do. 10:11:37 yeah but it will have to point to some place 10:11:43 and that place will have to have some size 10:11:59 No it doesn't. 10:12:04 Do you know how pointers work in C? 10:12:27 More specifically, function pointers. 10:13:06 no 10:13:11 A pointer is always just the size of a memory address. 10:13:18 So you just give it somewhere else to point in memory. 10:13:29 It points to a spot in memory. 10:14:05 So you just have it point to somewhere else that was allocated by the compiler for the function you wrote. 10:14:09 It's... complex. 10:14:40 compiler/interpreter 10:14:59 yeah but where it points to is going to have some size 10:15:04 Why? 10:15:11 It points to a closure. 10:15:16 A closure knows its size. 10:15:19 And everything else. 10:15:29 what would happen if the procedure you defined is rather big 10:15:37 as to not fit 10:15:49 That would be an awfully big procedure. 10:15:50 in whatever size you may have 10:15:53 Parts of it would get paged out to disk. 10:16:02 so you have the entire memory? 10:16:07 Why not? 10:16:20 but then how would the other variable in letrec go? 10:16:31 if you already claim the entire memory for procedure 1 10:16:38 Well 10:16:44 Procedures don't have memory like that. 10:16:51 They have virtual memory and pages. 10:16:56 So there's magically more. 10:17:20 At some points things will start dragging. 10:17:25 At a point past that, your system will crash. 10:17:27 Programmer error. 10:18:38 so how does letrec work then? 10:18:51 Pointers and let. 10:19:13 if it wants to claim some memory before evaluating the procedure, it couldn't know the size of the procedure and can't decide how much space to have 10:19:23 It doesn't. 10:19:25 It like 10:19:27 It says 10:19:35 "Give me all of these pointers! I need them!" 10:19:38 Then later it says 10:20:03 "Okay, now for the pointer even?, set that pointer to point to this closure (function / procedure)" 10:20:47 You can read section 2 of http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CFsQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.72.9024%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&ei=ocnpTsChLYSTtwfy0aj3Cg&usg=AFQjCNFzgxMl4S0pU5yovgIJ8RWfDwkLXg&sig2=ndEuQ9auhKa8i-kJXhWJ8g 10:20:49 http://tinyurl.com/6uwh3ow 10:20:58 Thank you, rudybot 10:21:30 Actually, the top of page 2 describes exactly how it works. 10:21:45 Anyway, I must sleep. 10:21:47 Good luck. 10:22:18 ok bi 10:25:27 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:26:21 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #scheme 10:26:21 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 10:26:21 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 10:37:07 -!- surrounder 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by peer] 17:34:00 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:39:44 teurastaja [~netwalker@modemcable072.213-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 17:40:26 i feel stupid: how do you extract all elements from a list without unquote-splicing? 17:42:40 im trying to define vector-apply but im afraid its impossible without conversion to list 17:44:00 like: (define (apply f lst) ((cons f lst))) 17:44:03 is that right? 17:44:42 it's an interesting question 17:44:54 you actually can't define `apply' yourself, i don't think 17:45:25 unless you use eval, i guess 17:46:45 yes i saw one definition (messy though) using eval 17:47:12 but doesnt this definition work? 17:47:50 im confused... 17:48:35 freakazoid [~seanl@66.220.144.73] has joined #scheme 17:48:46 i don't know how to explain it properly 17:49:18 use reader syntax? 17:49:46 rostayob [~rostayob@host86-157-212-233.range86-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:51:35 if you use eval and apply, can you simulate learning? 17:51:57 dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has joined #scheme 17:54:14 i tried something like this: (define (learn proc) (let ([env (get-current-environment)]) (eval (apply proc (map cdr (filter (lambda (key . val) (proc val)) env))) env)) 17:54:27 im sure its wrong :P 17:54:48 but its entertaining 17:55:06 find the error(s) :P 17:55:11 wingo: Apply's usually defined as an operator (sometimes invisible), isn't it? 17:56:02 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 17:56:37 if you cons a list with f as its car and add parens to force evaluation, doesnt it do what i think its supposed to do? 17:59:47 also, can you define apply using map? 18:00:02 because map can be defined with apply 18:06:25 teurastaja: no, you really really can't define apply yourself 18:06:35 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.229] has joined #scheme 18:08:00 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:09:10 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.187.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:09:23 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 18:09:54 -!- exobit [~user@pool-98-116-156-190.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:29 exobit [~user@pool-98-116-156-190.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:12:20 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:13:29 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:41 damnit 18:14:36 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:14:44 how do i manage to write vector-apply? (define (vector-apply1 f vec) (apply f (vector->list vec))) ? 18:15:18 samth: It's called, "write a Scheme;" isn't it? 18:15:35 teurastaja: yes 18:15:38 klutometis: :) 18:16:11 teurastaja: or, slightly more like regular `apply': 18:16:35 (Or is that writing eval?) 18:16:52 (define (vector-apply f . args) (apply f (append (but-last args) (vector->list (last args)))) 18:16:59 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 18:17:04 klutometis: those are the same thing 18:19:47 ijp [~user@host86-182-155-16.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 18:20:30 samth: Good; in that case, next time I'm writing a Scheme, I'll just say: "I'm implementing `apply' in such-and-such an environment." 18:20:50 ddp [~ddp@93.182.131.6] has joined #scheme 18:21:02 klutometis: i did mean that to be about `eval', but it's a good line 18:22:40 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-199-161.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 18:24:58 kk` [~kk@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 18:24:58 -!- kk` [~kk@77.107.164.131] has quit [Changing host] 18:24:58 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 18:25:40 HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82a449.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 18:26:00 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82a449.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:26:23 HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82a449.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 18:28:47 -!- exobit [~user@pool-98-116-156-190.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:33:15 choas [~lars@p5795C640.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:35:25 noam__ [~noam@46.120.51.147] has joined #scheme 18:38:08 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:38:30 -!- noam_ [~noam@46.120.51.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:43:55 (define (vector-apply f . args) (receive (bl l) (split-at-right args 1) (append bl (vector->list l)))) 18:43:59 ;-) 18:44:15 split-at-right to be written by the user, but, it's similar in concept to SRFI 1's split-at. :-) 18:44:18 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:45:10 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-50-131-15-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:09 -!- choas [~lars@p5795C640.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:51:04 cky: your function doesn't use f 18:52:28 joast [~rick@76.178.187.164] has joined #scheme 18:56:34 Oh, oops. 18:56:59 (define (vector-apply f . args) (receive (bl l) (split-at-right args 1) (apply f (append bl (vector->list l))))) 18:57:56 I only come up with these kinds of solutions because I can't stand the thought of traversing the list twice to partition the list at the last pair. ;-) 18:58:58 -!- Neban [~neban@130.Red-83-33-84.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:00:31 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:01 confab [~win7@public-nat1.scc.losrios.edu] has joined #scheme 19:02:42 cswords_ 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