00:01:02 dsmith_ [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:02:19 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:08:35 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:10:27 -!- snizzo [~quassel@host9-48-dynamic.54-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15:40 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-168-236.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:20:37 -!- wingo [~wingo@AMontsouris-551-1-52-116.w90-24.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:22:23 -!- rotty [rotty@de.xx.vu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:14 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:33:01 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 00:40:58 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:45:27 imphasing [~Alex@97-81-115-30.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #scheme 00:45:54 in something like (let () (define-syntax ...)) would the macro be bound to the top-level environment, regardless? 00:46:36 As in, defin-syntax (or my define-rewriter variant) should always bind to the top level 00:48:18 aiui, they are local imphasing 00:49:38 imphasing: not the standard, but: http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/syntax.html#./syntax:h0 00:49:53 IIRC let-syntax is splicing at the top level, but let shouldn't be 00:50:41 qu1j0t3: I'm pretty sure inner define-syntax is specified in r6rs 00:50:57 ijp: i'm sure it is, i just grabbed what was handy 00:52:19 Hm, that would make sense 00:52:23 I was hoping for less work :< 00:53:30 imphasing: are you just aiming for R5RS? If so, it isn't necessary 00:55:53 Yeah, r5rs is all I really want 00:56:19 I've implemented about 75% of ER macros now, but my define-rewriter always runs in the global env, so that makes it a little weird :/ 00:56:20 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #scheme 00:56:37 But to make define-rewriter work locally, I would have to interleave eval and macro expansion.. 00:56:42 http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-8.html#%_sec_5.3 00:56:44 http://tinyurl.com/5mvlcw 00:56:55 "There is no define-syntax analogue of internal definitions" 00:57:17 FWIW, the relevant section of r6rs is http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-14.html#node_idx_358 01:05:37 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:06:05 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 01:10:20 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:11:46 ijp: Thanks, I'll read them :) 01:17:30 ijp: `let-syntax' does not splice. 01:18:56 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:22:41 annihilator [~rff@ip72-207-248-18.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 01:22:41 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-248-18.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:26:54 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:28:03 eli: looking at the standards, yes, you're right. I'm not quite sure where I got that idea from. 01:31:52 unless, maybe "The
s of a let-syntax form are treated, whether in definition or expression context, as if wrapped in an implicit begin; see section 11.4.7. Thus definitions in the result of expanding the s have the same region as any definition appearing in place of the let-syntax form would have." 01:34:01 does that not mean that a (let-syntax () (define-syntax ...)) is equivalent to (define-syntax ...) 01:35:20 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:35:26 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:40:50 eli: (begin (let-syntax ()(define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () [(foo) (display "yep\n")]))) (foo)) works in Racket's #lang r6rs 01:41:30 although not in #lang racket 01:42:10 jrslepak_ [~jrslepak@12.21.1.3] has joined #scheme 01:42:24 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:47:35 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:53:39 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 01:55:21 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:57:02 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 01:57:49 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:05:36 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:10:10 githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:18:30 ijp: I wasn't aware of r6rs doing splicing... So you were right. 02:22:16 hi, what does (define ..) really return ? 02:22:28 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:22:50 ttvd: "Nothing useful". 02:23:03 i am writing an interpreter and i need to return something 02:23:18 hehe 02:23:24 so i am wondering what i should return 02:23:26 nobody has ever been faced witht his problem before 02:23:32 sigh 02:23:35 i'm sure the standard forgot to mention it 02:23:36 any suggestions? 02:23:51 i can't find anything about that in r5rs or r6rs 02:23:54 or anywhere for that matter 02:23:57 really? 02:23:57 ttvd: It is unspecified, you can return some unspecified value if you have one, some void value, or 42. 02:24:07 should i return nil ? 02:24:17 i believe that's what eli said. 02:24:28 Yes, you can return anything you want. 02:24:32 nod 02:24:34 thanks guys 02:24:35 you can return a string containing a PNG file of your cat. 02:24:46 that would require me linking a libpng 02:24:50 :D 02:24:51 not at all 02:24:59 Old implementations would return the defined name as a symbol, but that usually tends to encourage users to rely on that return value. 02:25:11 eli, i actually like that 02:25:12 thank you 02:25:31 i am not aiming for full compatibility 02:25:35 ttvd: Well, relying on such value is a bad habit -- since there is no real value. 02:25:40 nod 02:25:50 Sorry, no real *symbol* value. 02:26:07 If you care about compatibility, then you shouldn't. 02:26:20 (Since by definition you are compatible.) 02:26:48 If you care about encouraging compatibility, then don't return something that could be used like the name or the value. 02:27:11 maybe i should just create a unique value like Nil, but for Success 02:27:13 and return that 02:27:26 ttvd: some implementations have an 'unspecified' value. 02:27:53 is that assigned when you do something like (define foo) ? 02:28:06 Yes, like qu1j0t3 said -- but "success" has no relevance here. 02:28:13 yah true 02:28:16 This is not some stdlib call that might fail... 02:28:42 ttvd: I suggest you return a fresh pair, then. That should be quite unique. 02:29:00 well, i am going to use this interpreter in a game, so when user types (define x 42) in a console, i really should return something meaningful 02:29:21 How about a string "Hey, I set x to 42!" :) 02:29:50 ttvd: the neat thing about 'unspecified; is it achieves what eli suggested, not encouraging reliance on anything specific. 02:30:12 yah, maybe i will use that 02:30:13 thanks 02:30:34 ttvd: you can always have an 'interactive define' that prints something helpful... and still returns unspecified. 02:30:49 ttvd: e.g. a macro loaded in interactive mode. 02:30:56 oh nice, nod 02:31:10 you might have 'interactive' variants of other things too 02:31:23 (error) maybe 02:31:45 yah i still haven't implemented error objects 02:33:15 coderdad [~coderdad@ip68-97-195-24.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 02:33:18 -!- freakazoid [~seanl@66.220.144.73] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:33:35 i am also still kind of wondering about how to implement gc for symbol table.. i do use ref counts 02:33:42 so does a typical implementation kick gc once in a while? 02:34:01 ttvd: Why implement instead of using an existing implementation? 02:34:15 eli, learning experience? :P 02:35:01 Overrated. 02:35:07 as i said, i don't need full compatibility i also need something lightweight that can easily embed 02:35:24 There are existing choices for that. 02:35:29 of course 02:35:33 but i have 0 interest in them 02:35:41 for multiple reasons which go out of scope 02:36:32 *eli* sighs 02:36:56 The huge effort in designing a good language -- even one that already has a spec -- are massively underestimated. 02:37:35 And if for whatever reason your implementation becomes popular, we get to enjoy another headache, tiny-scheme- or siod-style. 02:37:46 i am not publishing my implementation 02:37:51 it's for my own use 02:37:59 in this particular software 02:38:22 i don't see much point in arguing however 02:42:40 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-3.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:47:38 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@ip68-97-195-24.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:47:39 eli: it's a smaller effort if the channel would just pitch in as needed. :D 02:49:24 eli: Okay, question. I want to tweak an existing implementation to make it fully Scheme (no C code). That doesn't mean I have to start with an implementation without C code; it's just the end result I seek. Which implementation do you recommend for that? Is Racket good as a basis, or is it really, really, really wedded to C? 02:50:03 cky: I'd start reading the LiSP book. 02:50:22 "Lisp in Small Pieces" http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html 02:50:34 pjb: Okay. However, eli's point is, use an existing implementation rather than writing your own. So, I have to start _somewhere_. 02:51:05 Otherwise I'd choose an implementation that is already mostly written in Scheme, and remove progressively the parts written in C. 02:51:27 Most implementations _are_ "mostly" written in Scheme. :-) 02:51:34 Yes. 02:51:35 It's a question of which ones have C code that's easy to port. 02:52:09 Like, for a Dalvik Scheme implementation I want to play with, I have half a mind to hack up Common Larceny for thath. 02:52:12 *that 02:52:25 Choose an implementation with a scheme to native compiler. The C part will probably be restricted to a few low level functions, garbage collector, and system interface. 02:52:37 Well, in that case, Racket is indeed a good choice. 02:53:50 Also, have a look at Squeak, how it bootstraps a smalltalk written in smalltalk. 02:53:58 *nods* 02:54:30 Here's a question (since you're a CL person). Has anybody seriously tried to make a 100%-CL version of SBCL? 02:54:37 Obviously, it already have a CL->native code generator. 02:54:40 *has 02:55:04 I don't think so. It's mostly an academic interest... 02:55:32 And the proportion of C glue code is already quite small in sbcl. 02:55:34 Hmm. I thought some kind off Lisp Machine-like thing would be of interest to more than just academia, but hmm. 02:56:11 Rewritting it in lisp would mean that you'd have to write it for each target plateform. It would be more work than worth. 02:56:20 *nods* 02:56:40 cky: I'm not following your question -- the implementation is in C (therefore "wedded" to it), but that shouldn't concern anyone who is not extending the core at that level (which is almost nobody). 02:57:05 qu1j0t3: Weren't you the one talking about patience for dealing with obvious questions the other day? 03:00:21 eli: no :) 03:00:32 eli: i was being tongue in cheek, above :) 03:01:01 As long as both the tongue and the cheek are yours... 03:01:08 definitely! 03:01:27 eli: i used to hang out in #mysql, speaking of repetitive and obvious questions 03:01:46 Heh. 03:01:59 Probably even better than ##javascript 03:02:19 eli: oh, it was a fun channel. probably still is. well moderated, actually. 03:02:26 eli: No, like, here's the deal. I would take an implementation, port the C-side stuff to Scheme, then basically AOT-compile the core to get things bootstrapped. 03:02:37 eli: but at first, the faq's drove me nuts. then i got more used to it. 03:02:58 qu1j0t3: Not surprising, the moderation.... 03:02:59 eli: Similar to how Stalin works, if I understand correctly (not sure if Stalin is 100% Scheme, but for this discussion I'll pretend it is). 03:03:29 cky: "100% Scheme" or any other such language is always a well-disguised lie. 03:03:44 :-O 03:04:11 But if you want to get close to such a thing, you should really go with a minimalish implementation -- not racket, since the kind of functionality that it has in its core is pretty huge. 03:05:07 Right. *nods* 03:05:30 I was hoping I could "borrow" the Racket code generator to get a leg up. Well, maybe I still can, even if I start from a different implementation. 03:09:10 cky: I suspect that you'll like Aziz's paper. 03:10:04 Is it obvious from context which of Aziz's papers you're referring to, or does he have only one paper? :-) 03:10:25 The one about implementing a compiler. 03:10:37 (Don't remember the name and can't look ATM.) 03:10:39 jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-212.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:10:55 *nods* 03:11:00 Awesome, thanks for the pointer. 03:11:36 Speaking of Aziz, what's Ikarus up to these days? 03:11:38 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-171-177.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:11:39 Last I heard its website is down. 03:14:27 Indeed. 03:14:33 Vicare is the fork. 03:14:40 There's a fork? :-O Wow. 03:14:45 I'm using both in my runallschemes script 03:14:51 Nice. 03:16:30 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:19:44 *offby1* saw Abdulaziz give that talk; it was vera vera cool 03:20:32 http://scheme2006.cs.uchicago.edu/11-ghuloum.pdf probably. 03:20:42 samth [~samth@12.21.1.3] has joined #scheme 03:20:56 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:21:47 Cool, thanks. :-) 03:21:58 12.21.1.3? Awesome IP address. :-) 03:30:31 *offby1* stares blankly 03:31:06 :) 03:32:22 1.2.3.4 doesn't seem to be allocated either... 03:32:23 12 is or was Bell Labs 03:32:34 1.x.x.x has never been allocated 03:32:41 see general map at http://xkcd.com/195/ 03:36:32 More up to date: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assigned_/8_IPv4_address_blocks 03:37:35 apparently 1.x.x.x has been freed to APNIC 03:39:29 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:40:41 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #scheme 03:40:57 free at last free at last 03:41:46 -!- samth [~samth@12.21.1.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:45:25 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:45:35 -!- jrslepak_ [~jrslepak@12.21.1.3] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:45:43 preflex_ [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 03:46:27 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex 03:50:30 I'm pretty sure telstra owns a chunk of 1.x 03:51:05 That's because Telstra owns everything. 03:51:20 freakazoid [~seanl@c-67-164-106-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:51:38 that's why the govt sold them off 03:52:04 Hehehehe. 03:52:12 You know, similar story with Telecom in New Zealand. 03:52:19 The government sold it off, then it became big and evil. 03:54:17 -!- jimmyrcom [~fold@adsl-75-53-33-186.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:56:15 aspect: a priori, you cannot own a chunk of 1/8. Either you own the whole of it, or you don't own any of it. 03:58:42 pjb: APNIC owns 1/8, then. But it allocates a fair amount to Telstra, probably. 03:59:23 I suppose then cidr blocks are on-{sold,leased} 03:59:38 http://www.robtex.com/route/1.0.0.0-8.html lists a bunch of allocations 04:00:10 cky: it's true. Telstra was/is basically a cancer. 04:00:29 cky: and such things attract, um, unsavoury types, like Trujillo. But this MIGHT be OT. 04:00:39 Yeah. 04:09:32 Operaist2 [~OperaIst@ppp-124-120-47-39.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #scheme 04:09:43 what would be a good way to represent an array/list in lisp? 04:09:51 or scheme rather 04:10:03 Operaist2: Arrays and lists are very different. 04:10:06 Which are you talking about? 04:11:41 an ordered set of integers 04:11:46 also, terminology can vary wildly from language to language: perhaps describe the characteristics of the data structure you want instead 04:12:10 Operaist2: An ordered set is typically implemented with a tree, not an array, not a list. 04:12:27 By tree, I meant specifically a binary search tree. 04:12:53 fixed size? neccssarily a set? ordered on the sense that the 1st element is always < than the 2nd or ordered based on insertion time? 04:12:58 Though, if you want the compactness of an array and only extract elements in order, rather than do lookups, you can use a heap. 04:13:20 *qu1j0t3* doesn't think 'set' was meant. /me suspects Operaist2 meant a vector. 04:13:30 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 04:14:02 (shortcut: the most common basic containers in scheme are lists which are consed which can be made bigger and smaller, and vectors which are fixed-size and can have members mutated) 04:14:26 Vectors are contiguous in storage. Lists are not. 04:14:42 This is a very significant difference. :-) 04:14:58 The contiguity means vectors are random-access. 04:15:00 okay im thinking about writing a procedure to compute a pascal triangle for a given n 04:15:03 Lists are very much not random-access. 04:15:07 so n = 1 -> 1 04:15:13 n = 3 -> 1 2 1 04:15:39 so how do i get the procedure to evaluate to something like (1 2 1) 04:15:43 instead of just an integer 04:15:53 Operaist2: I'll write you a function. One minute. :-) 04:16:39 wait dont 04:16:44 (equal? (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 1 '()))) (list 1 2 1)) 04:16:44 id rather do it myself 04:17:01 also equal to '(1 2 1) 04:17:03 except i dont know how to return a [list,array,vector] 04:17:14 i tried '(1 2 1) and got an 11 04:17:29 actually it was '(1 2 3) 04:17:40 you got an 11? 04:18:30 here's a simple example: (define (count-down n) (if (< 1 n) '() (cons n (count-down (- n 1)))) 04:20:18 you forgot a ) 04:20:37 and (count-down 4) -> () 04:20:47 so im not sure what you are trying to say 04:22:27 rudybot: (pascal 1) 04:22:28 cky: ; Value: (1 1) 04:22:30 rudybot: (pascal 2) 04:22:31 cky: ; Value: (1 2 1) 04:22:33 rudybot: (pascal 3) 04:22:33 cky: ; Value: (1 3 3 1) 04:22:36 rudybot: (pascal 10) 04:22:36 cky: ; Value: (1 10 45 120 210 252 210 120 45 10 1) 04:22:41 Operaist2: ^^--- 04:22:57 i think he's seen it before :) 04:23:02 qu1j0t3: Eh? 04:24:00 My implementation kind of sucks because it implements the choose function the straightforward way, without any optimisations. :-) 04:26:38 how does that help me? 04:26:46 rudybot: (pascal 4) 04:26:47 Operaist2: your sandbox is ready 04:26:48 Operaist2: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: pascal in module: 'program 04:28:43 :) 04:28:46 Operaist2: It just demonstrates that it's easy to write within 5 minutes. :-) 04:28:54 Operaist2: it doesn't. are you doing the sicp exercise? 04:28:55 Operaist2: If you want to look at my code, I've pasted it here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125756 04:29:04 Operaist2: But only look at it if you have no other options. 04:29:08 Operaist2: if not, the book leads you up to the point where you can solve it. 04:29:27 qu1j0t3: I haven't read the book, at least not to the point of that question. 04:29:35 qu1j0t3: I just solved it off the top of my head. ;-) 04:29:37 cky: sure 04:30:00 You can efficiently implement a binary tree in an array, though, using the convention that the children of the node at element n are at elements 2n and 2n+1 (where n is 1-based) 04:30:00 Oh, gah. 04:30:36 Operaist2: so, for practical support in learning how to solve that, try SICP. From the beginning, if necessary. 04:31:06 qu1j0t3: I've updated my paste to be simpler. ;-) 04:32:19 cky: yours is much more functional than mine. I don't have those habits very developed yet. http://telegraphics.com.au/svn/puzzles/trunk/sicp/1-12.scm 04:32:31 cky: mine doesn't do the whole triangle either, just the exercise requirement 04:32:32 Hehehe. :-) 04:32:56 though at some point i modified to do the triangle, because it's pretty. 04:33:13 So, you're a real Australian, eh, and weren't just talking about Telstra for fun? :-) *makes a mental note* 04:33:36 well, i no longer live under the shadow of Telstra. 04:33:43 I'm a real New Zealander, though currently living in the US. 04:35:57 Ozzies and Kiwis and Yanks, oh my! 04:36:09 Hehehehe. 04:37:20 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:37:45 *jcowan* lives on a small island off the east coast of North America 04:37:49 actually im doing SICP right now 04:38:03 the only problem i have is how to return a list/array/vector 04:38:03 Operaist2: was this part of ex 1.12? 04:38:16 yes 04:38:35 Hmm, for fun I looked at my solution for SICP 1.12 (in version control from 4 years ago). Looked the same, but I had horrible Scheme indentation back then. 04:38:38 Operaist2: well, 'array' has no obvious meaning in scheme, but 'list' and 'vector' are well defined. 04:38:49 Operaist2: do you know the definition of a list? or how to create one? 04:39:01 Operaist2: i don't think you can get to ex 1.12 without some inkling of that. 04:39:04 in scheme? 04:39:08 yes. 04:39:10 dont think so 04:39:17 Operaist2: Have you learnt about cons yet? 04:39:18 well, maybe rewind a little in the book. 04:39:28 there is no state in scheme i have used so far 04:39:40 Operaist2: My answer doesn't use state either, per se. 04:39:52 state is irrelevant here, pretty much. 04:40:04 how do you make a list without state? 04:40:08 Operaist2: you need to understand what a Scheme list is, and how to create one. 04:40:11 Operaist2: Repeated consing. 04:40:16 you would need something to hold the location of the next element 04:40:25 Operaist2: Sure. How about lambda? 04:40:28 whats a cons? 04:40:31 oh. 04:40:35 Operaist2: rewind the book 04:40:42 lambda is a function place holder 04:41:25 Operaist2: Consider this function: 04:42:15 rudybot: (define (sum items n) (if (null? items) n (sum (cdr items) (+ n (car items))))) 04:42:15 cky: Done. 04:42:20 rudybot: (sum '(1 2 3 4 5) 0) 04:42:21 cky: ; Value: 15 04:42:43 Operaist2: Notice how each time, the running num is kept in the parameter "n". 04:42:55 You do not need any state to achieve that. 04:43:12 You just need to make space in the parameter list for the "accumulator". 04:43:43 *running sum 04:43:54 PiRSquared17 [~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17] has joined #scheme 04:44:04 well, a simpler demonstration of creating a list is (define (twolist a b) (cons a (cons b '()))) 04:44:14 Operaist2: ^^ can you grok that? 04:44:27 qu1j0t3: Sure, but, how to build a list piecemeal will be the next question asked by Operaist2. :-) 04:44:32 Operaist2: study (cons) , figure out what a pair is, and how a list is built of pairs. 04:44:48 cky: it's late, that's my last fling :) 04:44:52 qu1j0t3: ;-) 04:44:54 so you use cons to make a pair 04:44:58 Operaist2: yes. 04:45:04 and cons cons to make a 3 "pair" 04:45:09 Operaist2: And in Scheme, lists are just a bunch of pairs chained together. 04:45:11 etc. 04:45:16 and () is empty 04:45:22 Operaist2: well, a cons produces one pair. 04:45:30 Operaist2: a list with two elements is two pairs. 04:45:57 the recursive definition of a list is what made most sense to me 04:46:04 aspect: indeed. 04:46:10 Quite. 04:46:16 Operaist2: a list is the empty list '(), or a pair whose CDR is a list. 04:46:25 Very succinctly put. 04:46:38 Operaist2: the CARs of these pairs are the elements of the list. 04:46:38 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:46:56 Operaist2: you know what i mean by CAR and CDR of a pair? 04:47:22 CAR is head, CDR is tail of a linked list 04:47:29 hm..... 04:47:33 PiRSquared17: Let's not even go there yet. 04:47:35 well it's my bedtime. 04:47:40 *qu1j0t3* o/ 04:47:43 qu1j0t3: Have fun! 04:48:10 Operaist2: When you (cons 'foo 'bar), say, the car is 'foo, and the cdr is 'bar. 04:48:10 car and cdr are just ridiculous names for the 1st and 2nd items of a pair 04:48:19 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:48:21 rudybot: (define thing (cons 'foo 'bar)) 04:48:21 cky: Done. 04:48:24 rudybot: (car thing) 04:48:25 cky: ; Value: foo 04:48:27 rudybot: (cdr thing) 04:48:28 cky: ; Value: bar 04:48:41 http://enwp.org/CAR_and_CDR 04:48:59 kc9cra [~cra@76-250-39-77.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:51:15 samth [~samth@12.21.1.3] has joined #scheme 04:54:00 rudybot: Y 04:54:00 PiRSquared17: For instance, in Chicken (lambda (x y #!key z) ...) would allow me to refer to the value following keyword #:z by the variable 'z' 04:54:32 *offby1* nods gravely 04:54:43 aspect: I'm not sure I see what's less ridiculous about the words 'dog' and 'cat'. 04:55:19 or 'one' and 'two'. no regularity there. 04:55:37 yet we manage to learn them. 04:56:07 rudybot: (define Ycomb (lambda (f) ((lambda (x) (f x x)) (lambda (x) (f x x))))) 04:56:09 PiRSquared17: your sandbox is ready 04:56:09 PiRSquared17: Done. 04:56:20 rudyboy: Ycomb 04:57:02 then by your logic we should use random string for every word in programming languages? 04:57:16 they could have called it head/tail 04:57:20 or top/bot 04:57:25 (define Ycomb (lambda (f) ((lambda (x) (f x x)) (lambda (x) (f x x))))) 04:57:29 ... 04:57:48 Operaist2: by my logic there is no problem. 04:58:02 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.91.1] 04:58:16 rudybot: (define Ycomb (lambda (f) ((lambda (x) (f x x)) (lambda (x) (f x x))))) 04:58:16 PiRSquared17: Done. 04:58:34 since programming languages are based off english, it should use words with corresponding meaning in english to make it easier for users 04:58:50 Operaist2: they're based off English? 04:58:55 this is what people do in modern languages 04:58:56 Operaist2: what's 'lambda'? 04:59:05 rudybot: (Ycomb (lambda (x) x)) 04:59:05 PiRSquared17: error: #: expects 1 argument, given 2: # # 04:59:17 lambda is a greek character 04:59:20 Operaist2: orthography is random. semantics are not. we're intelligent enough to connect them. 04:59:22 I know... 04:59:39 Greek L, lambda calc, etc... 04:59:41 Operaist2: it's a non-problem. what's 'ls', 'scanf', 'xor' ? 04:59:53 ls can be thought of as list 04:59:56 xor is exclusive or 05:00:01 etc. 05:00:05 it is based off english 05:00:12 which makes it easier to learn and to remember 05:00:18 wats cdr? 05:00:20 scanf = scan file (or something like that( 05:00:22 content decrement register 05:00:27 or something 05:00:33 Operaist2: we're grownups, we'll cope. 05:00:42 CDR = Contents of the Decrement part of Register number 05:00:59 Operaist2: there are bigger challenges around 05:01:05 that is basically saying "we are grownups so we should be randomly difficult stuff instead of making it easier" 05:01:12 that is exactly why 05:01:15 Operaist2: don't sweat the small stuff. 05:01:19 we shouldnt make small stuff a challenge too 05:01:34 Operaist2: (define left car) (define right car) ; solved forever 05:01:39 s/car/cdr/ 05:02:08 -!- dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:02:37 (define leftleft caar) ; ? 05:02:40 Operaist2: we aren't stuck with words. that's a big part of the point of Lisp. 05:02:48 PiRSquared17: I'm not endorsing it :) 05:03:13 Operaist2: well written lisp isn't littered with CAR and CDR anyway. 05:03:20 Operaist2: it's written in higher abstractions 05:03:27 Operaist2: that fit your problem 05:03:51 Operaist2: by the end of sicp that will probably be clear 05:04:40 Quadrescence provided us with handy expansions that satisfy the demanding lexicographer: Contents of Anterior Register and Contents of Dorsal Register. I rest my case. 05:05:15 I don't like car/cdr either, but changing them is a lost cause. If that's a dealbreaker, there is Clojure. ;) 05:05:20 +1 05:05:24 Very nice, re anterior/dorsal. 05:05:43 Speaking of which, I'm attending Clojure/conj next week. It'll be interesting. 05:05:47 -!- PiRSquared17 [~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17] has left #scheme 05:06:48 -!- samth [~samth@12.21.1.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:06:53 Operaist2: changing CAR and CDR wouldn't make anything easier. because a moment later you're faced with things that actually are harder than a toddler's first two words. 05:07:37 Operaist2: and as soon as you become facile in the language, the vocabulary shifts gears. 05:08:18 so your argument is "something hard is gonna come sooner or later so might as well make the stuff hard right now"? 05:08:21 An English speaker never trips over the total irregularity of its words. And nor will you trip over CAR, CDR 05:08:28 Operaist2: no, you keep saying that instead of reading 05:08:31 that would be akin to "you ar egonna die sooner or later, might as well die now" 05:08:36 Operaist2: you don't get it. never mind. 05:08:38 good luck! 05:08:48 there's no actual problem here. 05:09:02 there's clojure. it doesn't use them. 05:09:03 im glad you agree to my point 05:09:08 qu1j0t3++ 05:09:19 qu1j0t3: Clojure doesn't use cons cells at all, so. 05:09:23 Operaist2: If it bothers you, Racket provides car/cdr as first/rest in racket/list. 05:09:31 It's kind of tautological that it wouldn't have car/cdr either. 05:09:38 I don't know if other Schemes do this as well (I checked on guile and chicken, which didn't) 05:09:47 they don't for good reason, asumu 05:10:09 first/rest only work for some interpretations of pairs 05:10:22 Racket only allows them for those interpretations (i.e. lists) 05:10:38 and, gawd, there's always (define) for Your_prog.scm 05:10:51 why would lisp coders be arguing about WORDS, ever? 05:11:06 qu1j0t3: Inorite. 05:11:11 #define test if 05:11:22 #define otherwise else 05:11:34 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #scheme 05:12:02 qu1j0t3: Did you see all the crazy defines in the original Bourne shell code? 05:12:17 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-160.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 05:12:23 cky: hm, maybe... there's Arthur Whitney's J source... :) 05:13:02 -!- kc9cra [~cra@76-250-39-77.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:13:11 :-O 05:13:25 cky: I dont recall the bourne sources actually 05:13:35 cky: v6 was very nice overall iirc 05:14:47 qu1j0t3: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourne_shell ; See the bottom paragraph of the Features section. 05:14:51 Also see the reference link. 05:14:54 It's...hardcore. 05:15:42 aha, I knew there would be an IOCCC connection: 'Bourne took advantage of some macros[2] to give the C source code an ALGOL 68 flavor. These macros (along with the finger command distributed in Unix version 4.2BSD) inspired the IOCCC - International Obfuscated C Code Contest.[3]' 05:16:44 cky: one wonders how his co-workers reacted. 05:17:06 Indeed. 05:17:10 cky: I also wonder what Kernighan & Plauger would have made of this 05:17:23 cky: The Elements of Programming Style is a book I respect 05:17:43 cky: but it doesn't deal with macros at all, being rooted in Fortran 05:18:08 cky: the update would be Graham and Norvig, I guess, for properly programmable languages. 05:18:53 WHILE *s2 = *s1++ DO s2++ OD 05:19:05 *qu1j0t3* isn't convinced 05:19:26 rudybot: eval (define-syntax that (syntax-rules (would be very nice should be in) ((that would be very nice should x be y in body ...) (let ((x y)) body ...)))) 05:19:27 Axioplase_: your sandbox is ready 05:19:27 Axioplase_: Done. 05:19:35 rudybot: eval (display (that would be very nice should foo be 42 in (+ foo foo))) 05:19:35 Axioplase_: ; stdout: "84" 05:19:42 \o/ 05:20:16 The days of CAR and CDR are counted, now that we can program in meaningful English! 05:20:34 errrr, yus... 05:21:45 cky: 'My immediate reaction on seeing the page was recoil and puzzlement: it looked nothing like any C code I had ever seen. (â€^VIs it even C?â€^V) 05:21:53 cky: http://keiapl.org/rhui/remember.htm#incunabulum 05:23:10 Hahahahahaha. 05:25:30 cky: I like the copious commentary. 05:25:42 cky: This is the Rain Man of literate programming. 05:26:15 That's the best line I've seen all day. :-) 05:26:44 i understand this to be an artist's sketch, though. I'm sure the production code was more maintainable. 05:27:58 I would hope. 05:35:14 samth [~samth@12.21.1.3] has joined #scheme 05:51:01 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 05:51:39 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:51:45 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:00:46 -!- samth [~samth@12.21.1.3] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:03:49 -!- djcb` [~user@a88-112-255-94.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:06:51 what is a good way to check if an integer is prime? 06:07:17 Operaist2: Well, for small numbers, you can use the Sieve of Eratosthenes. 06:07:31 Operaist2: For big numbers, you can use the AKS primality test. 06:08:20 AKS seems hard to implement.... 06:09:09 How big is your number? 06:20:22 300 digit 06:20:34 Or Miller Rabin, if you're ok with a probably prime test. 06:20:53 You could also maybe just grep the interwebs for it 06:20:55 That. 06:25:42 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:33:40 -!- ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:35:57 ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 06:39:17 ok so im stuck at SICP question 1.12. i checked all the texts before and there is no mention of list,array,vector,pair anywhere 06:39:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-218-233.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:39:21 :( 06:41:06 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #scheme 06:42:08 Operaist2: I think your function should take two arguments: the row, and the column. 06:42:22 It would return a single value, corresponding to the Pascal's triangle value at the given coordinates. 06:42:27 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:43:11 It wants you to do this using recursion, i.e., not by using shortcuts like the "choose" function. 06:43:43 it asks to compute elements of pascal's triangle 06:43:53 wouldnt that imply the whole row? 06:44:08 No. 06:44:36 why doesnt it say compute an element then>? 06:45:02 Well, given the previous templates seen so far, that is kind of obvious. :-) 06:45:46 i guess 06:45:55 that would make the whole thing quite simpler too 06:46:01 i guess ill go with that 06:46:24 :-) 06:50:23 but now i need error checking.... 06:51:57 -!- MasseR [~masse@dyn68-323.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:52:27 whats the difference between cond and if?? 06:53:05 Well, "if" supports two branches only. 06:53:09 "cond" supports many branches. 06:53:16 Other than that, "cond" is just a macro on top of "if". 06:53:34 i.e., a "cond" expression expands to zero or more "if" expressions. 06:53:54 isn't that implementation defined? 06:54:19 tali713: Perhaps, but the R5RS defines "cond" to be a derived form. 06:54:49 -!- ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:54:52 tali713: Also, in the Common Lisp HyperSpec, COND is listed as a macro, whereas IF is a special form (can't remember the term used in the CLHS for this, but you get the idea). 06:55:01 Those are the right terms. 06:55:34 RnRS explains COND in terms of IF, but does not require it to be implemented so. Indeed, it permits IF to be implemented in terms of COND. 06:55:49 The same is true of ANSI CL and of ISLisp. 06:56:02 that's what i thought i remembered. 06:56:40 ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 06:57:14 In any case, I would rather implement COND in terms of IF, instead of the other way around, even though it's an implementation liberty. 06:57:26 AFAIK all implementations do so. 06:57:32 *nods* 06:57:42 It's possible that elisp implements IF in terms of COND, though. 06:57:51 :-) 06:58:10 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-212.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:59:15 -!- freakazoid [~seanl@c-67-164-106-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:59:51 i don't believe it does, i think they are both independently defined. but obviously defining cond in terms of if is the more sane choice. just wanted to clarify that it was not a requirement. 07:00:17 -!- Operaist2 [~OperaIst@ppp-124-120-47-39.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20111008085056]] 07:00:29 https://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/kay/libabc.git;a=blob_plain;f=README 07:00:32 http://tinyurl.com/6goz5fb 07:06:58 -!- ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:09:00 ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 07:10:44 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:11:19 too bad they advocate for autotools 07:15:35 *foof* recommends doing the opposite of almost everything listed 07:16:01 Indeed. Especially the final recommendation. 07:19:07 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-d9bfc1ad.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:19:19 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4dbedd3d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 07:19:34 -!- ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:21:24 ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 07:28:46 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:38:59 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:58:27 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-mjjojgsvjkneowhb] has joined #scheme 08:04:37 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:04:52 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 08:06:57 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-mjjojgsvjkneowhb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:07:01 djcb_ 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12:46:56 -!- soveran [~soveran@190.247.204.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:12 -!- jrslepak_ [~jrslepak@12.21.1.3] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:49:26 leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-114.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:51:42 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-114.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:58:46 leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-114.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:59:45 grrr 13:03:11 snizzo [~quassel@158.110.41.101] has joined #scheme 13:14:46 PiRSquared17 [~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17] has joined #scheme 13:14:51 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 13:15:05 -!- snizzo [~quassel@158.110.41.101] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:15:30 -!- annihilator [~rff@ip72-207-248-18.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:18:55 grrrr 13:23:18 grrrr? 13:23:28 rarr? 13:24:16 mew? 13:26:48 that reminds me, I am still at a breakpoint in the debugger since last night :) 13:30:56 if your program has rested enough, type 'c' 13:31:29 if I do that, the program will explode 13:31:57 -!- dsmith_ [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:32:31 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 13:34:22 soveran [~soveran@190.247.204.206] has joined #scheme 13:38:20 it is literally a break point :) 13:39:22 dsmith_ [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:43:05 -!- soveran [~soveran@190.247.204.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:13 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:46:32 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 13:48:59 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 14:04:24 imphasin1 [~Alex@97-81-115-30.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #scheme 14:06:20 jimmyrcom 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[~jrslepak@12.21.1.3] has joined #scheme 14:49:31 rstandy`` [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 14:53:15 -!- rstandy` [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:56:51 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 15:03:12 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:12:51 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:16:01 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #scheme 15:19:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-154.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:20:14 (define (cur2 f x) 15:20:14 (lambda(y) (f x y))) 15:20:14 15:20:26 i have opened currying in scheme :D 15:27:08 -!- jwd_ [~jwd@cable-118-42.sssnet.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:27:29 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 15:32:55 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed 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ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111102223350]] 16:05:41 samth [~samth@12.21.1.3] has joined #scheme 16:13:42 -!- sajith [~sajith@140-182-135-176.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:13:56 jwd_ [~jwd@cable-118-42.sssnet.com] has joined #scheme 16:16:27 dca`: Opened in the sense of: "Our dichotomy opens the combat?" 16:18:34 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-40-116.gmavt.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:19:21 Sorry, that didn't make sense: I was trying to respond to a surreal statement with a quote from "Backstroke of the West," but someone it never comes out rightly. 16:19:24 Congratulations! You have unlocked CURRYING. 16:20:08 World of Scheme MMORPG 16:20:48 +1 abstraction, +1 consind 16:20:50 *consing 16:21:00 klutometis: surreal'r'us 16:21:08 wingo: ) 16:21:13 wingo: ( 16:21:25 Next feature in 200 conses 16:22:46 Quest: Write a DO loop in less than 60 seconds. 16:24:44 That might be quite a fun idea to do something like that, given the 'need' to unlock 'awards' lately 16:25:51 freakazoid [~seanl@c-67-164-106-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:25:58 (OR "Learn Scheme in 48 hours" ELSE) 16:26:39 (OR "Learn Scheme in 48 hours" ELSE #f) ; ooops 16:27:43 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 16:28:45 kk` [~kk@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 16:28:45 -!- kk` [~kk@77.107.164.131] has quit [Changing host] 16:28:45 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 16:29:58 qu1j0t3: Is that sort of like surrealism lite? Funny thing is, four-year-olds have a native faculty of surrealism; so maybe Surreal"R"Us is a pleonastic store. 16:35:48 -!- jwd_ [~jwd@cable-118-42.sssnet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:37:51 soveran [~soveran@190.247.204.206] has joined #scheme 16:40:02 -!- soveran [~soveran@190.247.204.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40:13 -!- rstandy`` [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:43:14 -!- samth [~samth@12.21.1.3] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:45:49 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-40-116.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 16:48:15 *qu1j0t3* googles pleonasm 16:48:59 klutometis: "four-year-olds have a native faculty of surrealism" this is very true. 16:49:25 klutometis: it's beaten out of them by years of exposure to C++ 16:53:33 -!- freakazoid [~seanl@c-67-164-106-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:12:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-154.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:13:43 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-56.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 17:15:36 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:18:37 jwd_ [~jwd@oh-71-50-197-29.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 17:26:11 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:40:48 3 17:40:51 *cky* would totally be into a Scheme RPG. 17:43:57 oh dear 17:43:58 http://spl.smugmug.com/Humor/Lambdacats/13227630_j2MHcg#960526257_bBDEY 17:44:50 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-40-116.gmavt.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:45:53 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:49:01 There are a lot more of those lambdacats than I remember 17:49:22 drwho [~drwho@208.7.157.62] has joined #scheme 17:49:41 -!- jwd_ [~jwd@oh-71-50-197-29.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:50:28 qu1j0t3: Heh; in the three metamorphoses of Zarathustra: if the camel is Logo, the lion is C++, the child must be Scheme: . 17:53:29 wingo: I still like that "Lambda What?" baboon image of yours :) 17:53:40 soveran [~soveran@190.247.204.206] has joined #scheme 17:56:07 certaint1 [~david@port-27776.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #scheme 17:56:08 -!- certaint1 [~david@port-27776.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:00:29 jwd_ [~jwd@oh-71-50-197-29.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 18:02:08 -!- wingo [~wingo@AMontsouris-551-1-52-116.w90-24.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:06:07 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-56.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:07:53 -!- jwd_ [~jwd@oh-71-50-197-29.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:08:17 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@12.21.1.3] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:10:08 djcb [~user@88.112.255.94] has joined #scheme 18:13:21 githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has joined #scheme 18:17:49 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-76-105-198-230.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:20:30 jwd_ [~jwd@oh-71-50-197-29.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 18:20:37 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 18:30:53 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-40-116.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 18:32:52 -!- soveran [~soveran@190.247.204.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:38 bzzbzz [~franco@70.83.34.240] has joined #scheme 18:40:59 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:44:13 freakazoid [~seanl@66.220.144.73] has joined #scheme 18:44:24 -!- rgrinberg [~rudi@24.52.246.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 18:45:19 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:45:19 -!- tizoc [~user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:45:19 -!- PfhorSlayer [~PfhatWork@sceapdsd43-15.989studios.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:45:19 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:45:20 -!- rudybot [~luser@ec2-204-236-150-238.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:45:20 -!- Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:45:20 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:45:41 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #scheme 18:46:18 tizoc [~user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has joined #scheme 18:46:18 PfhorSlayer [~PfhatWork@sceapdsd43-15.989studios.com] has joined #scheme 18:46:18 rudybot [~luser@ec2-204-236-150-238.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 18:46:18 Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 18:46:18 Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 18:46:36 la la la 18:46:36 *rudybot* bows deeply before his master, inventor of incubot 18:49:01 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 18:50:36 -!- freakazoid [~seanl@66.220.144.73] has left #scheme 18:50:58 -!- Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:51:39 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:54:03 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-252.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:54:15 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-252.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:54:40 rudybot: I'm impressed at your lumbar flexion; in that respect, you rival George: . 18:54:41 http://tinyurl.com/7xcfps9 18:54:41 klutometis: i'm not sure if linum-mode works with advice 18:56:20 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-177-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:56:38 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-177-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:57:17 -!- jwd_ [~jwd@oh-71-50-197-29.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:59:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-154.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:00:18 -!- djcb [~user@88.112.255.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:02:42 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 19:04:34 jrslepak [~jrslepak@12.21.1.3] has joined #scheme 19:07:53 incubot: I'm going to submit you to Kelly Starrett's mobility regimen until you evince a comparable flexibility. 19:07:58 That's likely because you've seen dynamic scope explained as *the* binding regimen, not as a library add-on. 19:11:37 samth [~samth@12.21.1.3] has joined #scheme 19:25:15 snizzo [~quassel@host69-12-dynamic.50-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 19:39:59 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #scheme 19:41:18 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 19:42:43 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:46 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:48:46 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 19:48:58 -!- jrslepak is now known as jrslepak_ 19:49:04 -!- jrslepak_ is now known as jrslepak 19:52:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-154.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:58:04 ijp` [~user@host86-177-156-222.range86-177.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 19:59:42 -!- ijp [~user@host86-180-108-79.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:59:49 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 20:12:00 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:22:35 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-56.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:23:08 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:30:21 jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 20:32:51 sepuku_ [~sepuku@83.212.47.63] has joined #scheme 20:34:40 hello schemers,i need some help with map 20:34:46 can anyone help 20:34:50 ? 20:36:22 ask something 20:36:44 ok 20:37:22 i'm making map as shown in "structure and interpretation of computer programs" 20:37:55 but nil is an "unbound variable" 20:38:03 i'm writting in csi 20:38:22 shall i paste the code of map here? 20:38:25 You should use '(). 20:38:25 (define nil '()) 20:38:31 Jinx! 20:38:35 nil isn't used in modern Scheme. 20:38:39 Indeed. 20:38:51 :-) 20:38:55 hmm 20:39:03 thank you 20:39:07 i'll try that 20:39:09 :-) 20:39:24 instead of nil what is used now? 20:39:29 '() 20:39:32 ;-) 20:39:39 ahh ,i see 20:39:50 thank you both 20:39:51 :D 20:40:10 :-) 20:40:22 In fact, the distinction between false/zero/nil/&c is one of my favourite things about Scheme. 20:40:39 Quite. 20:40:39 I feel physically ill when I see zero used to mean false in other languages. :-P 20:40:53 sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 20:40:53 I must say, though, that distinction initially stung me a lot. 20:40:55 Not in Scheme. 20:41:04 But in Ruby, which also adopts the "0 is true" thingy. 20:41:20 I came from a Perl background, so all my Ruby knowledge came from that. 20:41:24 And in Perl, 0 is false. 20:41:34 *fds* nods. 20:41:56 well i sure i have a lot to learn ^^ 20:42:16 I can imagine it must be a pain to change habits like that, but that's no excuse for terrible language design choices! 20:42:50 Indeed, agree. 20:43:36 does anyone happen to be an openbsd user too? :) 20:43:46 I did, for many years. 20:43:58 Currently I'm back on GNU/Linux, for pragmatic reasons, but I still <3<3<3 OpenBSD. 20:43:58 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 20:44:51 i have only some months with OpenBSD 20:44:59 it's great 20:45:05 Yes, it's awesome. 20:45:19 sepuku_: You should chat to arcfide when he's on the channel too. He uses OpenBSD also, IIRC. 20:46:20 and since you where an OpenBSD user back in more "difficult days" i wonder why returning to GNU/Linux 20:46:53 mmc1 [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 20:46:54 lol it's great seeing more people using this Great OS 20:47:31 sepuku_: I started using virtualisation more and more. 20:47:40 And OpenBSD doesn't really work very well as a virtualisation host. 20:48:13 that's true 20:48:23 i've been having some issues too 20:48:30 but i love the man pages 20:49:07 cky, fds: thank you!i tested it with '() and it worked 20:49:50 Very good. :-) 20:50:04 :) 20:50:37 have you been wrtiting scheme for a long time? 20:50:39 :) 20:50:50 sepuku_: OpenBSD's best feature, for me, are: 1. PF, 2. CARP. 20:50:57 The man pages are also awesome, I agree. 20:51:34 sepuku_: I've been learning Scheme since 2004. 20:51:42 I'm still learning, because Scheme is a really deep language. :-) 20:52:07 cky, i have not started reading pf cause i'm learning more basics 20:52:26 but in the future i sure will 20:52:29 :D 20:52:36 2004?wow,that's cool 20:52:40 :-) 20:53:34 Wow, darn, just realised that I've used Dvorak for longer than I've used Scheme. :-P 20:53:43 *cky* learnt Dvorak in 2003. 20:54:28 *sepuku_* was to young to program in 2003 20:54:30 :P 20:54:36 too* 20:54:42 You must be way younger than me. 20:54:49 2003 1992 - p 20:54:49 11 20:54:55 guess I just started back then 20:55:03 Wow. 20:55:10 You _are_ tons younger than me. ;-) 20:55:14 12 years, in fact. 20:55:51 well the sooner someone starts,the better 20:55:53 :D 20:55:53 oh.. :P 20:56:06 dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #scheme 20:57:10 sepuku_: I started programming at 11. :-) 20:57:17 Initially QuickBasic. 20:57:34 Then at 14 I learnt assembly, because QB is just too limiting. :-P 20:57:40 Around the same time, I started learning C. 20:58:19 well,i started at 19 but i wasn't a regular programmer 20:58:27 well, I started with C++ and batch files 20:58:45 sepuku_: You're in improper programmer? 20:58:49 I had some DOS C++ compiler from borland 20:58:51 *an 20:59:05 and a book that was almost as old as myself 20:59:11 both borrowed from my dad 20:59:12 Hehehehehehe. 20:59:20 I even hacked a small editor in batch 20:59:21 :D 20:59:27 ;-O 20:59:27 I had done some (not) serious lessons of C in my school 20:59:37 soveran [~soveran@190.247.204.206] has joined #scheme 20:59:40 *ijp* checks ente for brain damage 20:59:50 ijp: found. 20:59:53 cky, i don't believe i diserve to be called a programmer at all 20:59:54 :P 21:00:02 ... and the only copy was stored on a floppy, which broke during a demonstration at school :P 21:00:03 sepuku_: Do you love programming? If yes, then you are a programmer. 21:00:21 the way you put it,i am 21:00:23 :) 21:00:28 :-) 21:00:44 cky: loving programming makes you a programmer? I guess I'm not a programmer then 21:00:46 So you're learning Scheme because you love it, or because you're doing SICP for university? :-) 21:00:50 ente: :'( 21:00:58 I hate computers :-) 21:01:05 ente: Programming isn't about computers. 21:01:12 ente: Programming is about computations, which computers do well at. 21:01:17 But it's not about computers per se. 21:01:20 ... if only 21:01:26 no in my university the don't even know what Lisp/Scheme/etc is 21:01:35 i had watched some seminars 21:01:37 we started with SML at university 21:01:46 I got very fed up with CS during my studies 21:01:58 ente: I did too, which is why I switched my major to statistics. 21:01:59 now I'm in the 5th semester and switching to math 21:02:05 I love programming and hate computers. :-) 21:02:10 fds: :-D 21:02:31 actually, I don't like programming with most of the stuff that's around 21:02:33 ente: I did an honours degree in statistics, and my honours project is both statistics- and programming-related. :-P 21:02:49 ente: My honours project was to implement a new serialisation format for R. :-P 21:02:49 things like java can ruin any "zomg I'm programming" feeling 21:02:55 i got one more basic question :P 21:02:58 ente: Don't look at Java, then. 21:03:05 uni made me. 21:03:09 shall i "shoot" ? :P 21:03:12 ente: For maths?! 21:03:13 I'm scarred for life 21:03:17 sepuku_: Just ask questions. :-) 21:03:17 You started with SML and moved on to Java..? 21:03:27 fds: that's how most universities here do it, yes 21:03:31 good :) 21:03:31 ente: No maths course I know of requires people to use Java. 21:03:46 ente: Interesting. Where is here for you? 21:03:51 ente: I switched my major after the first year, though. 21:04:11 fds: saarland/germany 21:04:17 Here in the UK, I think they start with Java and finish with Java, but I've never been a CS student, so I'm not sure. 21:04:44 is there a way to read the code of the basic procedures(for example cons or null?) 21:04:45 they do it that way in at least karlsruhe and tübingen 21:04:53 sepuku_: Usually, no. 21:04:55 ente: Well, I suppose they start with style and end up with `industry' or something. :-( 21:04:57 ... and over here 21:05:02 sepuku_: But if you download the source of your implementation, you can. 21:05:10 sepuku_: But that's advanced-level stuff. 21:05:11 fds: industry is where the jobs are! 21:05:27 ente: Sad, but true. 21:05:29 ente: There are jobs for everything. 21:05:30 fds: you're not supposed to love your job, it's about creating mindless workers who make money 21:05:32 One thing I've learnt. 21:05:41 cky, i see,i 'm really curious how null? is written to be honest 21:05:52 sepuku_: (define (null? x) (eq? x '())) 21:05:59 because if the process of programming is reduced to "apply design patterns", something is funny 21:06:04 I'll probably end up living on a farm once I finish uni.. 21:06:30 Retreat to a mountainside. 21:06:46 sepuku_: That is the most straightforward way to implement null?, and I can't imagine it being implemented any other way. 21:06:57 cky, ahh,it's simple...more thinking,less asking should be better 21:07:01 :P 21:07:02 Hehehehehe. 21:07:49 Similarly: (define (not x) (eq? x #f)) 21:07:51 i have as target to replace matlab with my scheme programs in my school 21:07:57 i hate Matlab 21:08:07 sepuku_: You know, funny you mention Matlab. 21:08:14 sepuku_: When I was doing my stats courses, one of them used Matlab. 21:08:20 why is that? 21:08:23 oooh 21:08:24 I did all my assignments in R instead, and got full credit. 21:08:38 I refuse to let people dictate which languages I used. 21:08:57 :P 21:08:59 There was a CS course I did which used Common Lisp, and I couldn't stand that CL was case-insensitive, so I used Emacs Lisp for my assignments. 21:09:03 Again, full credit. :-) 21:09:28 well since i'm in greece,you should understand why we still use matlab 21:09:30 :P 21:09:41 Why, was Matlab invented in Greece? 21:09:50 no,no.. 21:09:51 :P 21:10:02 just greece makes changes VERY SLOW 21:10:08 in everything 21:10:08 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 21:10:11 :P 21:10:37 Matlab is pretty widely-used everywhere, I think. 21:10:58 most serious universities nowadays use python, i think 21:11:07 Usually where they have money to pay for it... 21:11:07 that was my idea 21:11:09 i had to use matlab as a mechanical engineering major 21:11:42 i'm pretty sure they still use it at my school 21:11:47 I wonder how R compares to S-Plus... If that language still exists.. 21:12:11 dostoyevsky: I'd like to think R's features have developed beyond what S-PLUS did. But, who knows. 21:12:15 Lots of science or engineering types seem to prefer Matlab to more `mainstream' programming languages. 21:12:45 First, understand where Matlab (and R) excel at. 21:12:51 fds, to me Matlab is not a language 21:12:55 python :> 21:12:56 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin_ 21:12:57 For matrix calculations, those languages are hard to beat. 21:13:05 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:13:06 cky: hmmm... I remember that S-Plus could derive symbolic equations, so some examples that I wanted to do didn'T work in R... 21:13:11 -!- copumpkin_ is now known as copumpkin 21:13:21 cky, that's true but you don't know how the work 21:13:22 If only R had s-expressions and macros. 21:13:28 and that's annoying 21:13:34 dostoyevsky: Yes, true. Again, it's been many years since I was in that scene, so I hope R has developed those features by now. 21:13:38 asumu: It does. 21:13:45 sepuku_: It's not a particularly elegant language, in my opinion, but I can't really deny its status as a language for describing computations. :-P 21:13:47 asumu: It just doesn't have parenthesis for read syntax. 21:14:04 cky: Macros too? 21:14:05 asumu: Its parsing is actually quite tweakable, last I looked. 21:14:15 fds, well how about symbolic language? 21:14:17 :P 21:14:18 asumu: Not macros as you know it, but you can do special forms and all kinds of jazz. 21:14:30 sure not programming :P 21:14:32 (where items are not evaluated) 21:15:38 sepuku_: To be quite honest, most matrix operations are better seen as a black box. 21:15:45 You then just delegate everything to BLAS, etc. 21:15:59 cky: Well, an OS alternative to the symbolic power of Mathematica would be nice and would be a good addition to R. :-) 21:16:24 cky, you mean is scheme?or in programming generally? 21:16:26 there are a few open source CASs 21:16:36 some of them may even be good 21:17:03 i haven't really used any of them because emacs calc is usually good enough for me 21:21:35 -!- soveran [~soveran@190.247.204.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:04 sepuku_: In general. 21:23:01 But how does Python compare to R? Isn't doing stats stuff in Python much more primitive than in R/Matlab? 21:23:24 Indeed. 21:23:28 That's why I'd still use R. 21:25:12 cky, well at the moment i'm thinking/creating the matrix multiplication,i think i will set any matrix with just lists,nothing complex 21:25:27 sepuku_: Don't use lists for matrices. 21:25:30 You will regret it. 21:25:49 why 's that? :/ 21:25:55 Did anyone mention Maxima (nee Macsyma)? 21:26:26 sepuku_: Because lists are not random-access. 21:26:34 sepuku_: Whereas for matrices, you normally want random-access. 21:28:49 cky, i'll keep that in mind,but i want to try it 21:29:04 sepuku_: You won't like it. I'm just telling you. :-) 21:29:10 Hint: if you're using "list-ref", you're doing it wrong. 21:29:29 any suggestion is welcome 21:29:42 i'm not using list-ref 21:30:01 Personally, I'd use multi-dimensional arrays. 21:30:18 to be honest,i don't know what it is.Is i a common lisp feature? 21:30:43 cky: purely functional random-access lists totally exist 21:30:58 ijp: What, using cons cells? 21:31:12 sepuku_: I think an implementation of matrices that gives good performance is quite complicated.. R uses sparse matrices if needed and they have all kinds of other bells and whistles when it comes to use them efficiently 21:31:18 I can't recall the details, but I assume it's memoized 21:31:24 ijp: :-O 21:31:40 cky, i try to be minimal,and build my procs so i understand how thing work 21:31:41 rudybot: blame okazaki 21:31:41 ijp: don't blame the libraries!! 21:31:45 ijp: It just sounds totally insane when you could use vectors and arrays for that sort of purpose. 21:32:30 dostoyevsky, i still want to use scheme. :D I want to use scheme a much as possible 21:32:48 gnoirzox [~gnoirzox@85-170-161-74.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #scheme 21:33:02 things* 21:33:06 as much** 21:33:38 sepuku_: R is basically Scheme under the covers. ;-) 21:33:53 sepuku_: Extend scheme to have a basic matrix data type? Use some of the C libraries that R uses and wrap them into a basic scheme type. :-) Shouldn't be that much work imho 21:34:34 cky: http://www.eecs.usma.edu/webs/people/okasaki/pubs.html#fpca95 21:35:02 rotty [rotty@de.xx.vu] has joined #scheme 21:35:37 cky, hmmm i 'll check it the future 21:36:00 dostoyevsky, i don't want to use C libraries...for now at least 21:37:04 sepuku_: You may not be able to avoid it, if you're doing matrix work. 21:37:21 dostoyevsky: IIRC, BLAS, etc. are all written in Fortran, not C. 21:37:32 I like R for the fact that they basically wrap a bunch of high quality C libraries into an easy to use language. :-) 21:37:52 cky: Yeah, I remember something about this. :-) 21:38:15 For a long time, and maybe still today, Fortran kicks C's ass for matrix calculation performance. 21:39:29 cky: I've heard this a number of times but never from someone who knew _why_ this was the case. 21:39:36 cky, as soon as i can i'll try to avoid it 21:39:40 cky: Might be also because BLAS might have been written and revised by an armada of college professors over a lond period of time.. 21:39:49 As such, I'm still unsure of why Fortran can achieve such wonderful performance. 21:39:51 i know that i'll use it one day 21:39:56 s/unsure/unaware/ 21:40:05 i just hope that day will be late 21:40:06 :P 21:40:54 sepuku_: :-) 21:41:18 danking: I think it's more because the code quality of some Fortran libraries is still unmatched today... Comes with age. :-) 21:41:40 Also, random access lists: http://www.eecs.usma.edu/webs/people/okasaki/pubs.html#fpca95 21:42:27 danking: I'll add it to the list of things to read. Thanks. 21:42:41 I posted it already :P 21:42:50 ijp: Thanks doubly. :-) 21:42:59 ijp: Ah I missed your link in the noise. 21:43:39 ijp: Actually I thought you posted it a second time, so I wanted to acknowledge your posting before you decided to post it 5 times or something. 21:44:00 I just nick complete, sometimes I'm not very aware of who said what. 21:44:04 ;-) 21:44:18 Looks like its log n, but so long as your list isn't every atom in the Universe, I think you'll be fine. 21:44:33 O(log n) != random-access. 21:44:41 random-access != constant-time 21:44:55 Hmmmm. 21:45:20 I wonder where one draws the line. 21:45:24 log n is <= 280 though. 21:45:25 log n < 30 for n < ~ a billion 21:45:32 Surely, one can't claim that anything better than O(n) is random-access. 21:45:36 That's a bit of a low bar to set. 21:45:53 If you can pick out any element in the same amount of time, it is random-access 21:46:21 cky: with mapped memory, pointer dereferencing isn't constant time either 21:46:42 Okay. Here's my question for you: given such a list of length N, where N tends to infinity, does access time tend to infinity also? 21:46:50 copumpkin: *nods* 21:47:25 Big-O is a very rough guide, not much more 21:47:27 I suppose this is where the notion of "in practice" becomes relevant? 21:48:01 cky: I guess, but it's infinity for _every_ value 21:48:03 I mean, the Universe is a bit limiting in the sense that you only have so much stuff to make cons pairs out of. 21:48:08 log n might be quite bad if it involves disk access 21:48:34 ijp: Nice. ;-) 21:49:29 Another example is fibonacci, which has a closed form so you'd think it's O(1) but the arithmetic computation won't be O(1) in general for it. 21:49:41 Of course. 21:51:12 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 21:51:26 cky: If it's random access then the average access time would be N/2. If N is infinity then the access time would be too 21:52:00 zuchel [~zuchel@178-37-227-52.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #scheme 21:52:11 dostoyevsky: Hahahaha. 21:52:28 Not sure if I got this right. :-) 21:52:45 I think you were trying to make a point of standard linked lists, right? 21:53:05 Yeah, O(N) list 21:54:00 ;-D 21:54:10 fschwidom [~fschwidom@46.115.24.78] has joined #scheme 21:55:20 -!- zuchel [~zuchel@178-37-227-52.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:23 For an O(log N) list it's more interesting I guess... 21:56:00 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:19 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 21:57:15 *nods* 21:58:22 but log infinity would be still infinity, so with the universe as a dataset you can only use O(1) algorithms. :-) 21:58:44 rudybot: constant time or bust 21:58:45 ijp: That reduces to a constant lookahead to determine symbol vs number. 21:59:12 unless you have infinite time 22:00:20 I suppose we should secure some DARPA money research on creating Zeno machines. 22:00:38 ;-) 22:02:17 How many 500 Core CPU Cards would you need in a cluster to turn a O(N) algorithm into a O(log N)? 22:02:36 s/CPU/GPU/ 22:04:11 -!- gnoirzox [~gnoirzox@85-170-161-74.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: gnoirzox] 22:05:46 Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 22:13:53 -!- fschwidom [~fschwidom@46.115.24.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:14 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@GGZYMKCCCVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:16:33 annihilator [~rff@ip72-207-248-18.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 22:18:43 dostoyevsky: As processors running in parallel approaches infinity, state space search approaches O(1)? 22:21:00 But even today. Let's say you buy a Tesla S2050 GPU, 1792 cores, a modern motherboard that can use 4 of these in parallel. If you were to limit yourself to datasets N < 1billion, you would need about 7 thousands computers in your cluster... If we suppose that the algorithms that you use are actually easy to parallelize, that is.. 22:27:28 I mean it's still not that you actually could use O(N^2) algorithms but you could make a little dent. :-) 22:33:00 danking: are you taking communication cost into account? 22:37:23 gn people 22:37:37 thanx for the help once again 22:37:39 :) 22:37:41 bb 22:37:45 -!- sepuku_ [~sepuku@83.212.47.63] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:38:33 as to the original question, if you have enough processors to assign one to each leaf of the decision tree and a "fast" way to map integers in the range [0, ..., n-1] to (unique) leaves, you could probably change a backtracking search into a single collective operation 22:39:25 (a logarithmic time reduce) 22:41:51 zmv [~zmv@c95339f3.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 22:44:09 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@12.21.1.3] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:45:57 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #scheme 22:46:06 Hello. 22:46:37 I'm reading Principes d'implantation de scheme et lisp and I need a little project to make in Scheme in order to learn it a bit better. Any ideas? 22:47:06 -!- samth [~samth@12.21.1.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:47:10 ... like, implementing a scheme? 22:47:46 ok, let's try something more useful: try to implement a scheme in emacs lisp. 22:48:15 :-O 22:48:21 There's already a scheme implemented in Common Lisp (called "pseudo" scheme), but it's a r4rs. It would be nice to upgrade it to r5rs. 22:48:57 In both cases, you'll have some fun implementing call/cc over CL or the emacs VM. 22:49:02 myrkraverk: conway's game of life 22:51:26 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:55:55 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:57:09 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 23:04:08 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #scheme 23:06:06 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:12:35 Isn't there a common lisp in emacs lisp? 23:13:28 yes 23:13:38 the common lisp in emacs lisp is emacs lisp :P 23:14:07 *trollface* 23:14:22 Lulz. 23:20:56 Shouldn't that rather be named uncommon lisp? 23:21:22 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:21:51 Hehehehe. 23:24:44 special lisp 23:27:16 "special" lisp. 23:27:32 peterhil [~peterhil@GYYMMMCMLVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 23:32:06 There should be a quota so that at least 25% of all lisp code is written in "special" lisp. 23:34:51 AI programming languages are people, too. 23:34:59 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:38:06 lololol 23:43:42 -!- ijp [~user@host86-177-156-222.range86-177.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:49:00 -!- zmv [~zmv@c95339f3.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:52:54 -!- Belaf [~campedel@net-2-32-206-219.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]