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has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:55:04 drwho [~drwhen@c-68-80-157-110.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:01:28 nome [~user@c-76-120-244-110.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:10:54 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:19:53 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:24:35 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-98-117-65-239.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:33:47 coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 05:34:21 Quoth RMS: "The Free Software Movement and the Open Source Movement are like two political parties in our community." 05:34:45 He must be talking about the fucking Judean People's Front? 05:45:48 Fuck off! We're the People's Front of Judea. 05:47:11 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:47:29 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 06:07:46 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-159.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:14:35 mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has joined #scheme 06:19:34 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 06:20:56 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-235.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:22:24 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 06:22:24 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 06:38:39 denisw [~denisw@dslb-188-106-095-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 06:39:55 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:50:22 -!- drwho [~drwhen@c-68-80-157-110.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:54:24 -!- markskilbeck [~Mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:00:07 markskilbeck [~Mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #scheme 07:03:12 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-235.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:13:02 notreally [notreally@lejongleur.plus.com] has joined #scheme 07:15:41 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:21:55 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 07:29:36 -!- dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:30:44 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:33:35 tom_i [~thomasing@cmc.beaming.biz] has joined #scheme 07:36:59 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:46:00 brandelune_ [~suzume@pl316.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:46:36 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-pbsbopzotalbcuvh] has joined #scheme 07:46:36 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-pbsbopzotalbcuvh] has quit [Changing host] 07:46:36 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 07:48:13 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 08:13:23 Hannofcart [~Balajee@122.174.45.111] has joined #scheme 08:16:25 Why does the build process for GNU scheme itself require a previous scheme installation?! http://codepad.org/q7gfy7Fb Are these instructions broken? http://www.gnu.org/s/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-user/Unix-Installation.html 08:16:26 http://tinyurl.com/6684t73 08:22:23 -!- denisw [~denisw@dslb-188-106-095-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:30:17 erus` [~chatzilla@mailgate.ips-international.com] has joined #scheme 08:30:38 is there a "scheme for haskellers"? 08:34:35 racket has extensions to be typed and lazy 08:37:03 (cons a (cons b (quote ()))) why not (cons a (cons b ())) ? 08:37:12 samth [~samth@12.232.236.2] has joined #scheme 08:40:59 erus`: because the arguments to a function are evaluated 08:48:10 they both do the same thing in an interpreter... ? 08:48:39 pon1980 [~pon@h195n2-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #scheme 08:49:48 is that a statement or a question 09:05:01 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:12:47 -!- mithos28 [~eric@99.113.32.54] has quit [Quit: mithos28] 09:14:50 a combination of both 09:43:46 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:09 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 09:52:01 -!- samth [~samth@12.232.236.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:57:36 (eqv? "" "") is unspecified :O 09:58:51 use equal? 09:59:26 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:06:43 genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has joined #scheme 10:08:45 chri2008 [~christian@30.89-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #scheme 10:08:59 chri2008_ [~christian@30.89-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #scheme 10:09:40 -!- chri2008_ [~christian@30.89-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Client Quit] 10:09:40 -!- chri2008 [~christian@30.89-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Client Quit] 10:11:57 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 10:15:21 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:15:38 wingo [~wingo@188.84.169.192] has joined #scheme 10:17:21 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 10:22:02 Axioplase [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 10:26:43 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26:47 -!- PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:33:04 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:34:25 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #scheme 10:35:10 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-qifpdoxpsstsavqp] has joined #scheme 10:36:30 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:36:30 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-qifpdoxpsstsavqp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:41 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-nfsbicgsvcfmopjy] has joined #scheme 10:39:56 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 10:41:10 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-nfsbicgsvcfmopjy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41:26 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-ogpdbfnugixttzom] has joined #scheme 10:50:41 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@GGYZKMMDCCLIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:51:19 masm [~masm@bl15-130-128.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:51:40 peterhil [~peterhil@GGYZKMMDCCLIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 10:56:27 PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has joined #scheme 11:02:35 sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 11:10:19 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 11:10:47 -!- Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:13:44 Arafangion [~Arafangio@220.244.108.23] has joined #scheme 11:14:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-159.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:21:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-253.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 11:32:03 pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 11:32:21 -!- drdo [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:41:51 is there an r7rs draft compiler? 11:44:44 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 11:45:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-253.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47:02 rff [~rff@ip72-207-248-18.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 11:57:12 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 11:59:01 Is R more similar to scheme or common Lisp? 11:59:30 erus`: chibi should be it AFAIK 12:03:55 leo2007 [~leo@114.83.247.108] has joined #scheme 12:04:30 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@184.17.183.11] has quit [Quit: WeeChat [quit]] 12:06:25 Posterdati [~tapioca@host133-226-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 12:06:33 hi 12:08:26 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:10:04 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.83.247.108] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.90.1] 12:11:02 Are there any scheme implementations in C that implement continuations while also relying on the C call stack when doing eval? 12:11:13 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-ogpdbfnugixttzom] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:11:25 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-bolzelxhehfvlzuz] has joined #scheme 12:13:21 leo2007 [~leo@114.83.247.108] has joined #scheme 12:16:33 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 12:18:33 -!- ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:19:22 ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has joined #scheme 12:21:03 dostoyevsky: scm, old guile, i think there are still some others 12:21:07 it's a bad technique tho 12:21:10 mikecsh [~mikecsh@203.145.92.117] has joined #scheme 12:22:27 wingo: Yeah... But maintaining an extra stack data structure makes my code look ugly... And it doesn't make compilation easier... but I guess it's the only way to truly have the freedom that continuations need... 12:23:38 f8l [~f8l@87-205-52-83.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #scheme 12:24:35 snizzo [~quassel@iglu.cc.uniud.it] has joined #scheme 12:25:33 If hardware/the OS allowed for cheap and easy CoW mappings of stacks, that might be a useful way to implement continuations; I dunno... 12:26:09 -!- djanatyn|afk is now known as djanatyn 12:28:08 drwho [~drwhen@c-68-80-157-110.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:29:39 c continuations are difficult to capture correctly, impossible for implementing delimited continuations (which is what you should be doing instead), and are slow (because you end up having to cons up argument lists) 12:30:11 -!- drwho [~drwhen@c-68-80-157-110.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:30:24 using the c stack is sharecropping, basically. it might be interesting when you have no implementation and you don't know how to make one, but the costs exceed the benefits quickly. 12:32:07 With a dedicated statck datastructure, GC also becomes much easier to do... 12:32:34 yep 12:32:44 *wingo* vanishes 12:33:14 replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:35:49 -!- erus` [~chatzilla@mailgate.ips-international.com] has left #scheme 12:36:48 -!- wingo [~wingo@188.84.169.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:40:43 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:5c0:1000:b::9eff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:46:48 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:51:17 dostoyevsky: wow, i didn't realise R was actually a lisp derivative. From a glance at the defn ( http://cran.r-project.org/doc/manuals/R-lang.html#Introduction ) it looks sufficiently different that it doesn't seem meaningfully close to one or the other 12:51:28 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:51:58 qu1j0t3: Syntax is skin-deep. 12:52:05 cky: indeed 12:52:08 qu1j0t3: Internally, R is very, very much Scheme-inspired. 12:52:15 cky: ah. 12:52:22 Say I, who worked on R serialisation some 12 years ago as my honours project. 12:52:23 cky: did you see dostoyevsky's question above? 12:52:46 Hahahahah, about being more similar to Scheme vs CL? 12:52:48 cky: i don't mean that it's not close to 'lisp'.. i mean in the context of dostoyevsky's question 'closer to [C]Lisp or Scheme' 12:52:53 cky: yeah 12:53:36 qu1j0t3: Ross Ihaka, who was my project supervisor and was on of the chief designers of R, expressed its design in terms of Scheme. 12:53:38 cky: i didn't realise it was a lisp family language in some sense.) 12:53:46 cky: ah, good to know :) 12:53:49 qu1j0t3: So I'd say it's closer to Scheme than CL. 12:53:53 cky: makes sense 12:55:28 cky: thanks. what a great answer to dostoyevsky's question :) 12:55:41 :-) 12:56:40 R tried to be compatible with S to the maximum degree possible, so its syntax was also based on S. 12:56:43 cky: Have you worked at ethz? 12:56:54 dostoyevsky: No, I studied at the University of Auckland. 12:57:21 Initial versions of R were developed there; only later did it migrate to other universities. ;-) 12:57:55 I want to couple my compiler with R... Via rCPP... and do all the compilation optimizations in R... 12:58:08 :-O 12:59:58 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:01:02 Rcpp sounds hardcore (just Googled it up). 13:04:04 I've been using R since some years for doing stats stuff but it has never occured to me that it's actually quite similar to scheme... I always thought it was more a half-baked CL... But it also feels quite messy in some ways, I am still not really sure how the parameter dispatch in R actually works... 13:05:05 Okay, so, parameters in R are always named. 13:05:16 That's the first thing to know. :-) 13:05:29 cky: Rcpp is a wrapper to use external data structure in R without confusing R's memory management 13:05:35 *nods* 13:05:56 So, if you have a function like function(foo, bar, baz), that takes three arguments, which you can specify either positionally or via names. 13:06:16 e.g., you can call it using foo(42, 0, 10) or you can say foo(baz=10, foo=42, bar=0) 13:06:39 The interesting part is if your function contains .... 13:06:47 e.g., function(foo, bar, baz, ...). 13:07:22 Anything you call the function with, that contains a parameter name other than "foo", "bar", or "baz", gets slotted into the .... 13:07:42 Your function can't access the ... arguments directly. But it can pass them on to another function. 13:07:55 So you can call qux(...), and that will pass those extra arguments to qux. 13:07:55 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 13:09:31 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-36-200.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:11:24 Yeah... I often use '...' in my code but it hasn't yet occurred to me that I could actually look at it without passing it on. 13:12:58 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13:56 plot/print and the like are very confusing to me... they do a UseMethod() dispatch on their parameters, which AFAIU means that the look at the first parameter's type and then redirect the call to something like: (first_paramter$functions)$plot etc... I always find it difficult to find the function that actually will be executed when calling one of these generc functions... 13:14:54 Hehehehehe. Yeah, R's polymorphism mechanism is beyond me sometimes, too. 13:15:09 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 13:19:28 seems jerry's patch from yesterday was intended to be applied 13:19:33 oops 13:19:36 But I guess you could implement UseMethod in scheme if you wanted... if you had a (typeof x) ... 13:19:55 C-Keen: I copied the patch to my flash and nothing happened 13:19:55 dostoyevsky: If your Scheme implementation has some sort of OO system, yes. 13:20:05 dostoyevsky: e.g., if you used Coops, Goops, Swindle, etc. 13:20:06 leppie: thank you 13:20:30 C-Keen: Saracastic remark, sorry, I had someone tell me that about a linux kernel patch :) 13:20:50 *leppie* simply ignore those people 13:21:04 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21:23 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 13:21:57 leppie: heh 13:22:25 cky: AFAIU the OO features in R are basically plot(p,x) <- plot.<(typeof p)>(x,...) and that one could do in scheme easily, too.. 13:22:44 Right. 13:25:06 cky: Does R use pairs to implement its basic list data type? Or are these vectors? 13:25:21 -!- notreally [notreally@lejongleur.plus.com] has left #scheme 13:25:59 cky: so R also have ML semantics like Scheme does? 13:26:15 IIRC, R does use pairs to implement lists, however, lists are not commonly used in R (or at least the kind of R code I've seen). 13:26:18 or the other way around :) 13:26:47 leppie: What do you mean by ML semantics? 13:27:38 well scheme sematics (lexical scoping and construct rules) like ML have :) 13:28:08 I like that R has matrices as a standard data type, so you can write high-level code like in Excel or APL 13:28:17 iow at the core it is just scheme with a different syntax 13:30:13 :-) 13:30:23 leppie: Pretty much. 13:30:59 They should make some really cool LLVM base package for such language 13:31:05 leppie: The code I see in R does not often use tail-recursion, though... So there might be a difference at the core or it's because no one cares enough to use it 13:31:07 languages 13:31:14 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has joined #scheme 13:31:33 Can implement Scheme all the way to F# running on the same runtime 13:31:34 There's talk of an array library for WG2; standardising that then adding decent matrix/vector arithmetic libs would be good news for the numerical mathsy types 13:31:41 ...in their strange world of inexact reals 13:31:46 procedures are likely to be compatible too 13:31:54 have some kind of shared type system 13:31:58 *leppie* dreams 13:32:00 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:32:05 Also it uses a normal return statment, not call/cc... 13:32:26 dostoyevsky: that could just a be a call/cc in disguise :) 13:34:32 I think the biggest problem with R is that the code you use is always written by statisticians... not by people who have knowledge in programming languages... 13:35:05 That's an issue with any domain-specific language. ;-) 13:38:30 crap, my online evaluator does not limit execution time during syntax expansion! 13:38:57 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 13:39:15 lastwill [~will@89.16.8.208] has joined #scheme 13:43:19 leppie: :-O 13:43:40 Let's see if rubybot does. :-P 13:44:05 rudybot: (define-syntax (test stx) (let loop () (loop))) 13:44:06 cky: Done. 13:44:13 rudybot: (test 1 2 3) 13:44:17 cky: I am not sure. I think in R's case it has more to do with the fact that many stats departments used R to implement their stats code (because it was free to use). And those people seem to have a different approach to programming than cs people. 13:44:22 rudybot: eval (test 1 2 3) 13:44:24 cky: error: with-limit: out of time 13:44:34 cky: error: with-limit: out of time 13:44:38 leppie: ^^--- 13:45:06 dostoyevsky: My point is that a language designed for, say, bioinformatics will have the same issue, probably. 13:45:33 Most non-programming domains will contain large numbers of people who are not professional programmers. 13:45:50 E.g. almost no-one uses unit testing for their packages, it's usually something like: generate and display plot to be checked by a human who is knowledgeable about judging whether the result is valid or not... 13:46:02 Yep. 13:46:12 wingo [~wingo@188.84.169.192] has joined #scheme 13:46:15 Whereas cs folks like to have automated testing... 13:47:02 http://eval.ironscheme.net/?id=14 13:47:07 That's from bitter experience. 13:47:11 As a CS folk, I see the lesson here being that we need to design (and explain?) languages in such a way as to make the easy option be the rigth option 13:47:27 Eg, in C, where it's a pain to check the return value of malloc() etc, the easy option is to not bother 13:47:51 Leave it to sort out later. Just let the app die with a segv when out of RAM rather than a nice message. Etc. 13:48:33 cky, dostoyevsky: check that link 13:48:41 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 13:48:47 fluid-let-syntax, my new toy :) 13:51:17 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 13:51:35 alaricsp: I am not really sure why it is this way.. Maybe one really needs to understand that statistics at its heart is a very messy science... There is not much true or false, rather there's much of different shades of gray... 13:53:37 leppie: I didn't know that fluid-let-syntax lets you break hygiene. 13:53:46 dostoyevsky: I think it applies to all who learn programming as a secondary skill, though 13:53:47 leppie: That's not supposed to work like I think you're trying to do. 13:53:53 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-bolzelxhehfvlzuz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:02 I fondly remember helping physicists with their C++ programming when I was an undergraduate, for instance 13:54:03 cky: what hygiene am I breaking? :) 13:54:09 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-cmzyuotjkffhbxgc] has joined #scheme 13:54:30 They wrote some horrible code, not through stupidity or anythnig (far from it!), but through not having really grasped the horrible detail of C++ :-) 13:54:33 return is clear defined as syntax (a special fluidy one though) 13:54:58 A common one I saw was things like "double d = phi*2" declared outside a loop, and phi being modified inside the loop, and them expecting d to change to suit 13:55:03 cky: read eli's paper from Scheme2011, very good explanations 13:55:13 Which makes PERFECT SENSE if you're thinking in mathematical notation, etc. 13:55:45 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 13:55:51 A related issue was the use of meaningless variable names like "d" and "phi" which, again, comes straight from mathematical notation :-) 13:56:06 alaricsp: I remember that I had a very hard time to grasp JavaScript back in 1995... because everyone who wrote JavaScript was actually some kind of HTML-screen designer... 13:56:20 cky: note that that this fluid-let-syntax is different from the original, it now requires a fluid syntax definition, which makes it (from what I can see anyways) exactly the same as racket's syntax parameters 13:56:20 God, yes, I saw that too ;-) 13:56:37 just different names 13:56:45 Most JS back in those days was horrible copy-and-pasted cargo-cult code ;-) 13:56:54 Then when it didn't work, they'd poke it until it did, without knowing why 13:57:14 cky: load the 'fluid-synatx 2' snippet for some of the code he uses in the paper 13:57:19 alaricsp: So you and cky might actually have a point... 13:57:59 -!- lastwill [~will@89.16.8.208] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 13:58:17 *dostoyevsky* also wonders what might be unhygienic about leppie's return implementation... 13:58:24 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:58:37 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-cmzyuotjkffhbxgc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:44 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-uasimqzmldxfyeqq] has joined #scheme 13:58:54 dostoyevsky: Because it tries to introduce a "return" into the scope of the rlambda. 13:59:09 dostoyevsky: That "return" gets renamed. 13:59:25 The rlambda-scoped code will not see it, at least not under the name "return". 14:00:11 why will return get renamed? return is defined at toplevel and thats the one it will use 14:00:22 Oh!!! I see now. 14:00:26 I missed the top line. 14:00:28 ok, true... but it's a necessity. Otherwise return would be never visible, no? 14:00:56 hehe, take that out or make it a normal define-syntax and everything will blow up 14:01:03 Exactly. :-) 14:03:28 the original fluid-let-syntax allow one to rebind any syntax, scarely 14:03:40 did not understand that till I read eli's paper :) 14:03:40 :-O 14:05:00 hmmm... I just discovered a callCC() in R... call with current continuation.. :) 14:05:12 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 14:05:33 :-O 14:07:24 like I said, we just need a blindingly fast runtime for a bunch of languages, even ol' ruby can join the club 14:07:59 preferably an optimizing common compiler backend 14:08:07 like GCC 14:08:57 LLVM ;-) 14:09:22 and then we need a community supported common/portable standard library for Scheme 14:09:40 I think it's very hard to write a common backend that can work reasonably well for more than one language... 14:10:00 dostoyevsky: you can go far with portablility 14:10:04 And people who worked with llvm say, it's basically a C-compiler backend.. 14:10:18 oops, sorry, wrong answer (mine) 14:10:38 but you dont want something that compiles to 'C' 14:12:41 dostoyevsky: depending on the differences, those languages supported might even consider changing behavioral semantics to be common 14:13:15 almost like .NET 14:13:21 But yeah, we have llvm/GCC for static languages, JVM for OO-languages, but not really a common VM for functional languages 14:13:29 i dont think many VB'ers died because of the chanegs 14:14:29 dostoyevsky: guile-vm! :-P 14:14:35 leppie: parrot? 14:14:56 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 14:14:59 qu1j0t3: you mean the dead parrot? ;P 14:15:05 leppie: it's restin' 14:15:08 lol 14:15:28 qu1j0t3: it is nailed to its stick! 14:15:34 well that would have been good if it was not perl-based :p 14:15:41 C-Keen: 'e's pinin' for the fjords. 14:16:16 i dont even know perl, but I wont go near it. 14:16:33 perl based? 14:16:50 hm, implementations... but mainly perl 6, which is quite a different bird from perl 5 14:17:03 stuff you see, can't be unseen 14:17:08 actually i don't even remember what parrot is implemented in 14:17:16 *qu1j0t3* doesn't hang around the aviary much 14:18:15 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-218.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:18:33 at MS having F#, made .NET a bit better for targetting functional languages 14:18:44 s/at/at least/ 14:19:27 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-218.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:19:34 funny enough, there used to be a bunch of functional language implementation in the beginning of .NET, but you dont see that much anymore :( 14:19:47 inb4 Jon Harrop 14:20:07 .NET made loud noises about being cross-language but it was mainly for show 14:20:14 One who would write a common vm for functional languages must find a good middle way in terms of features offered... e.g. there are many flavors of OO but the JVM seems to have enough common ground for a lot of people. I am not sure how easy it would be to extract a good common list of features for functional languages... If scheme is essentially syntax,eval,call/cc and list... would that be enough for a language like haskell? 14:20:31 The languages all had to change to some degree to use the OO model, etc 14:20:43 alaricsp: they should really try restore that image, nowadays it is much better 14:21:02 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:23:49 MS don't seem so interested in hyping .net any more though 14:24:07 yeah, all about HTML5 and Javascript now 14:24:10 The new windows APIs are heading back to native code compilation, with .NET as just being "an option", AIUI 14:24:19 Plus more webby stuff, yeah 14:24:28 alaricsp: Well, before the JVM, there have been other VMs... E.g. objective-C/Smalltalk always used a VM internally... yet it never got to the point where people wanted to use it to implement anything other than the language it was written for 14:24:34 well everything is COM-based again ;P 14:24:52 they just cant seem to shake that wart 14:25:01 dostoyevsky: Yes, they were always rather internal to their project. The JVM published the JVM spec as an entity in its own right, which I guess made a big difference! 14:25:08 pandeiro [~pandeiro@177.32.219.169] has joined #scheme 14:25:09 leppie: Yeah... somebody somewhere sure loves COM! 14:25:53 And after that, VMs were in fashion! 14:27:34 dostoyevsky: objective-C ? 14:27:43 dostoyevsky: Smalltalk-80 yes. 14:27:44 im sure COM works well, but using it or targetting seems to be the pain 14:28:00 dostoyevsky: also, garbage collection :) ... leading to a great deal of research on vms and gc 14:28:17 dostoyevsky: every vendor had their smalltalk - HP, Apple, others, and famously IBM... 14:28:28 qu1j0t3: Depends probably on what you call VM... But Obj-C can do subclassing or adding methods during runtime... So there's a VM in the background 14:28:59 dostoyevsky: right, it's more obvious in the Smalltalk case since there is bytecode. 14:31:04 wingo: you still here? how does javascript JIT's compare lately to the speed of Flash? 14:32:08 One of the guys who worked on the JVM implemented v8, maybe this could be a common VM for functional langauges someday in the future? 14:32:53 drdo [~drdo@89-180-125-43.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 14:33:19 heya leo2007 14:33:20 er 14:33:23 leppie :) 14:33:27 stupid x-chat 14:34:37 leppie: i do not know. OTOH from some papers i have read, the flash JIT does not look very good, so I would expect that V8 could beat it handily. 14:34:53 *leppie* once had to write a flash interpreter in .NET, talk about being slow... got a new found respect for flashes vector drawing operations there 14:36:09 I gather Adobe know their vector drawing 14:36:22 having a good runtime is unrelated to having a good JIT 14:37:08 leppie: hmmm... wouldn't it be wiser to pass the vector stuff straight to the GPU? That's imho what flash is doing... 14:37:29 not 6 years ago, it was not :) 14:39:36 Isn't dart the new project of the v8 guy? He has a good motivation to write a common VM for functional languages, I think. :) 14:41:43 rixed [~rixed@extranet.securactive.org] has joined #scheme 14:42:54 dart has involvement from a number of v8 folks 14:43:04 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-235.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:45:36 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 14:50:17 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:50:21 -!- Hannofcart [~Balajee@122.174.45.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:56:13 laurus_ [~laurus@wl004.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 14:56:37 Is the book "How to Design Programs" useful for learning Scheme in general, or is it too specific to "Racket"? 14:56:57 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:57:30 mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:57:33 laurus_: It's good for programming in general. 14:57:40 It's not really specifically about Scheme or Racket. 14:58:37 cky, I am looking for a book with some practical examples of Scheme. Most of the materials online are just simple examples, but I am looking for something more like the book "Practical Common Lisp" for Scheme. 14:58:56 such a book is indeed missing 14:59:20 But it seems this book "How to Design Programs" is the closest thing 15:00:12 -!- mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:00:50 How hard is to take code out of that book and use it in, say, Chicken Scheme? 15:00:59 that's a petty rackety book though 15:01:20 DerGuteMoritz, can you recommend any practical Scheme materials? 15:01:34 for example, it heavily uses Racket's contract syntax 15:01:56 so it's not that easy to port it to other Schemes which don't have something like it 15:02:01 Oh ok. 15:02:05 Any recommendations? 15:02:16 laurus_: not quite, reading code is your best bet I'm afraid 15:02:26 if you are looking for practical stuff 15:02:48 laurus_: Get a scheme and use it to re-implement scheme? 15:03:32 I think there are some tutorials on this... and it might get you started with the language quite quickly 15:03:57 dostoyevsky, I'm interested in say, a simple application that interfaces with a database, possibly with a GUI even 15:04:05 skimming htdp I seem to have remembered it wrongly, it doesn't use the contracts syntax as much 15:04:49 laurus_: the Chicken Gazette has some short tutorials like that (called "Omelette Recipes"), maybe that's something to look at 15:05:05 DerGuteMoritz: The contracts are used mostly in comments for self-documentation, I don't think there's any point where they become mechanically enforcable constraints. 15:05:19 danking: yeah I seem to remember some other text 15:05:34 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 15:06:06 DerGuteMoritz, yes this was basically what I was looking for, thank you! 15:06:17 laurus_: did you find it already? ok :-) 15:06:34 unfortunately we haven't managed to keep up the release cycle :-( 15:07:33 DerGuteMoritz, well it is a nice start for me, thank yopu 15:07:34 you 15:08:21 you're welcome 15:08:38 if you have chicken specific questions, feel free to drop by in #chicken, there are many helpful people there 15:09:10 that way we don't spam this channel with chicken specifics 15:09:18 Thank you, yes I probably will in the future. By the way I am learning Scheme from this: http://www.shido.info/lisp/idx_scm_e.html 15:09:37 But I got stuck where they started talking about define-structure from MIT Scheme 15:11:00 drdo` [~drdo@89-180-183-121.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 15:11:24 I see! 15:12:41 -!- drdo [~drdo@89-180-125-43.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:12:49 Thank you for your help 15:12:56 My perosnal take, is that learning the parts of "Scheme" that you'd like to learn is not possible. Scheme definitely has a common subset which people can talk about with regards to more abstract problems, but interaction with databases, GUIs, etc. seem like very implemenation specific things. 15:13:18 That said, choosing some particular implementation and running with it is a good choice, imo. 15:13:24 laurus_: welcome! 15:13:29 danking, thank you :) I will try 15:13:52 yeah, you basically have to choose some implementation and stick to it if you want to build "real" apps 15:14:50 Ok. 15:14:58 Take care and thank you again 15:15:13 or do what everyone else does, write a scheme for your favourite platform ;P 15:15:41 -!- laurus_ [~laurus@wl004.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has quit [Quit: laurus_] 15:16:08 leppie: heh 15:16:19 has anyone written a Scheme in Go, yet? 15:16:46 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 15:21:41 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:22:31 DerGuteMoritz: Not a prominent scheme, no... But a little toy scheme/lisp might be quite probable 15:23:48 there should be a law for that 15:24:06 Rule 35 15:24:18 there's a Scheme for everything 15:28:56 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 15:30:23 :) 15:30:37 DerGuteMoritz: and if u don't like it - invent your own damn Scheme 15:41:27 mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:41:49 -!- pon1980 [~pon@h195n2-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:42:43 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:43:19 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 15:44:26 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:08 elliottc1ble [~me@ell.io] has joined #scheme 15:48:42 -!- elliottc1ble [~me@ell.io] has quit [Client Quit] 15:48:46 -!- brandelune_ [~suzume@pl316.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune_] 15:49:40 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:00:09 -!- snizzo [~quassel@iglu.cc.uniud.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:12 -!- pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:15:17 pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 16:18:13 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-uasimqzmldxfyeqq] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:19:34 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@cmc.beaming.biz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:21:43 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.69.85] has joined #scheme 16:21:43 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.69.85] has quit [Changing host] 16:21:43 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 16:28:27 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:29:36 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:32:43 kernelpanicker [~pfrench@rrcs-24-199-157-59.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:33:14 I'm going through the SICP book exercises and would like a command line scheme to run in ubuntu; any suggestions? 16:34:00 *qu1j0t3* uses Chicken 16:34:27 *qu1j0t3* knows that this won't be appropriate for ALL of SICP though 16:34:29 kernelpanicker: chicken, chibi, drracket 16:35:25 kernelpanicker: guile 16:35:35 imho SICP is using some fictional (ancient?) scheme implementation 16:36:02 i hear neil van dyke has a nice sicp package for racket 16:36:24 so you can do the picture language stuff and all 16:38:24 *muep* wonders why none of the options listed by dostoyevsky exists in fedora 16:39:37 muep: Should be easy to build them from source, though... 16:39:40 dostoyevsky: many people think all scheme implementations are either fictional or ancient. 16:40:33 mario-goulart: There might be some truth to it... Any working scheme implementation stops being scheme at some point, judging from racket's history... 16:40:49 jlongster [~user@pool-98-117-65-239.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:41:40 but there's also a scheme standard and SICP might have used that if it already was around at the time 16:41:59 *wingo* chuckles 16:43:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:21 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 16:49:36 http://www.neilvandyke.org/racket-sicp/ 16:56:30 -!- f8l [~f8l@87-205-52-83.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 16:57:02 thx 16:57:17 the link is helpful 16:57:46 muep: in fedora the package may be called racket 16:57:52 *qu1j0t3* is surprised chicken isn't in fedora tho 16:58:20 samth [~samth@conference/djangocon/x-czungokmhvvhbuzb] has joined #scheme 17:04:49 ijp [~user@host31-53-23-37.range31-53.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:07:41 -!- samth [~samth@conference/djangocon/x-czungokmhvvhbuzb] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:09:44 fschwidom [~fschwidom@46.114.93.141] has joined #scheme 17:09:58 can I run scheme in emacs? 17:10:03 I have emacs 17:10:54 You still need a Scheme implementation. Emacs doesn't have any intrinsic Scheme support. 17:10:57 I found www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/ 17:11:15 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 17:11:25 should I download the packages from that site? 17:11:38 or will it be a different scheme than the SICP book? 17:12:06 your GNU/Linux distribution probably has some scheme implementations you could use 17:12:50 at least guile is in debian and fedora and ubuntu 17:14:35 I'll use guile 17:14:37 -!- drdo` [~drdo@89-180-183-121.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:15:25 -!- chrissbx [~chrissbx@69-196-180-202.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:16:34 drdo` [~drdo@89.180.126.18] has joined #scheme 17:20:44 dostoyevsky: I've been hacking R since I stumbled upon a GSoC a few years ago; the superficial similarites with Scheme (see e.g. ) actually bother me. 17:21:02 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 17:21:06 It's like the uncanny valley: Scheme, but not quite. 17:21:59 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:22:16 klutometis: like IronScheme ;P 17:22:18 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:22:43 We ended up doing some integration with the JVM and, Jesus, some of the corner cases of R's object system (refclasses, in particular) are fucking painful. 17:23:08 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #scheme 17:24:24 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 17:25:29 leppie: Interesting; IronScheme is at least self-consciously Scheme-like, isn't it? I mean, how dare Luke Tierney flirt with me by implementing a half-baked callCC? 17:25:40 I think I have a new tagline: "R: blue-balls for Scheme." 17:25:50 lol 17:25:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-253.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:26:02 does ruby at least have a proper call/cc? 17:27:37 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 17:27:44 leppie: Depends on implementation. 17:27:56 leppie: MRI does, IIRC; JRuby has escaping continuations only. 17:28:07 last time I looked, IronRuby just had a stub there :) 17:28:12 leppie: That's a good question; I understand Ruby took a crack at continuations and meta-programming that weren't too far from the mark. 17:28:13 Hahahaha. 17:28:27 drwho [~drwhen@c-68-80-157-110.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:28:43 leppie: However, MRI's continuations do not unwind properly. 17:28:45 last time was 3+ years ago though 17:29:03 leppie: (JRuby's escape-only continuations do unwind properly, yay.) 17:29:18 try { } finally { } 17:29:33 Yes, but in Ruby-ese. :-) 17:29:38 Thus, begin/ensure. 17:29:57 The ensure's contents don't get run if you escape the block using a continuation, in MRI. 17:30:14 Which is really bogus, in my opinion. 17:30:38 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:03 lol 17:31:16 -!- wingo [~wingo@188.84.169.192] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:37:25 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:42:11 drdo`` [~drdo@89.180.179.249] has joined #scheme 17:42:17 samth [~samth@conference/djangocon/x-jsvznbinhluhfydn] has joined #scheme 17:43:46 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:44:08 -!- drdo` [~drdo@89.180.126.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:45:42 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 17:51:57 Sysop_fb [~bleh@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:02:54 denisw [~denisw@dslb-188-106-095-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 18:07:01 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09:09 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 18:10:25 -!- drwho [~drwhen@c-68-80-157-110.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:11:33 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 18:18:47 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:19:51 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:23:06 -!- samth [~samth@conference/djangocon/x-jsvznbinhluhfydn] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:23:12 choas [~lars@p5792CC65.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:31:13 certainty|work [~david@46.59.205.161] has joined #scheme 18:31:18 -!- certainty|work is now known as certainty 18:35:13 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:35:42 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:48 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 18:44:33 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@203.145.92.117] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 18:50:25 joyfulgirl [~ivy@209-6-79-248.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 18:50:35 -!- joyfulgirl [~ivy@209-6-79-248.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:50:35 joyfulgirl [~ivy@unaffiliated/joyfulgirl] has joined #scheme 18:51:10 klutometis: What's so funny about callCC is: If you search all .r files of R's installation for "callCC", you get no results. :) 18:52:20 -!- yell0 [yello@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:52:48 yell0 [yello@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 18:53:51 Somewhere deep in Ruby's packages, there are at least some cases where Kernel#callcc is used 18:55:06 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 18:56:34 dostoyevsky: Actually, I get a hit in src/library/base/R/callCC.R on line 17. 18:56:38 Pulling from SVN, though. 18:57:12 So, it's used in the file in which it's defined? :-) 18:57:28 Or am I misguessing? 18:57:58 fds: Oh, I see; he's talking about use-cases. 18:58:20 You're right: a little tree-searching algo of mine was the only use case I've seen (even in the wild). 18:58:27 Well, I didn't even see that one... I didn't search correctly 18:58:31 Yeah. The context is a discussion about the Scheminess of R. 18:59:25 -!- saccadewrk [saccadewrk@nat/google/x-zhgxpgjzscocwiby] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:31 Oh, you were participating in the discussion earlier! I just presumed that's what he was talkng about.. 19:01:36 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:02:56 -!- confab [~win7@c-24-10-60-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:02:59 klutometis: Well, the only part where you see callCC is in the example file for callCC... but otherwise it's never called... There's about 400k LoC of R in the standard installation, and no one is using it... 19:02:59 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 19:04:07 -!- fschwidom [~fschwidom@46.114.93.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:00 do people even know its there? 19:05:26 Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has joined #scheme 19:05:30 a decent number of ruby people don't know it has callcc 19:05:44 or what it does 19:06:05 Which either could mean that callCC is unecessary when you have return, or that the R developers are just not interested in using a scheme language properly, or that it's unusable 19:06:59 i feel like callCC probably wouldn't be all that useful for the sorts of programs that are typically written in R 19:07:52 also it's a bit unusable... delimited continuations are really what you want in many cases 19:07:57 dostoyevsky: The relationship between Scheme and R is mostly an archaeological one; the first implementation of R was in Scheme, for instance. 19:08:12 turbofail: Exactly. 19:08:41 Not to be confused with rscheme 19:08:50 Like I was telling cky earlier, though, it is uncanny to see a bunch of SEXP macros when you're writing C extensions in R: it's like a Greenspun's tenth, or something. 19:08:53 turbofail: In R the error handling is usually: return NA (nil)... Every operation on NA gives you NA again... which makes programs quite short actually 19:08:54 mmc1 [~michal@178-85-65-177.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 19:08:59 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.83.247.108] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.90.1] 19:09:53 rudybot: eval (define (NA) NA) 19:09:54 leppie: your sandbox is ready 19:09:54 leppie: Done. 19:09:59 mario-goulart: That's right; I remember that kind of sucked when I was thinking about writing a Scheme in R (or some other R-Scheme integration). 19:10:06 rudybot: (NA) 19:10:06 leppie: ; Value: # 19:11:17 mikecsh [~mikecsh@203.145.92.117] has joined #scheme 19:11:44 klutometis: Does S-Plus (of which R claims to be a free implementation) share this scheme heritage? 19:11:58 dostoyevsky: By no means. 19:14:33 klutometis: Might explain some of R's messiness... Tow different languages, which are a bit similar, merged into one 19:14:46 dostoyevsky: Indeed. 19:16:00 dostoyevsky: Here's the original paper: ; the Scheme part was an Ihaka-Gentleman idiosyncrasy, I think. 19:16:31 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f7691e6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:16:33 DrDuck [~duck@user-24-236-92-111.knology.net] has joined #scheme 19:16:41 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f7691e6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 19:17:24 "In fact, we implemented the language by first writing an interpreter for a Scheme subset and then progressively mutating it to resemble S." 19:17:28 Archeology is also what comes into mind when you consider that R includes source code which must be very old, mostly old fortran libraries which to date are still the best ones available 19:17:44 for certain numerical tasks 19:17:45 klutometis: Nice. :-) 19:17:57 klutometis: reading. :) 19:18:19 Damn, if only those cats had stuck with Scheme; writing a Scheme-like R would be a funny return. 19:18:31 Would it be reasonable to try to learn one new algorithm every week? 19:18:57 dostoyevsky: Yeah; I did an R project for Novartis not too long ago, and had to dip into some hairy Fortran 77. 19:19:04 Isn't there a new version of R.. The inventors of R wanted to write a better, cleaner version of R... I remember seeing this announced some years ago 19:19:04 I have just begun learning scheme -- mostly because I am really tired of this R "messiness". 19:19:19 DrDuck: Yes. 19:19:34 Saeren: That's an interesting pedigree; R -> Scheme? 19:19:38 I like it. 19:19:47 If you dig through the R source you can also find CAR and CDR. 19:19:52 DrDuck: In fact, why not just go through CLRS and learn a couple? 19:20:00 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:20:00 Saeren: I find that uncanny, too. 19:20:05 klutometis: I have CLRS beside me now. 19:20:14 It's a bit math intensive, though. 19:20:27 klutometis: Yeah, well, I not a computer science/programmer by profession. 19:21:08 klutometis: Did I link you this before? http://cloud9.hedgee.com/doc/chris/honours/475.789.pdf 19:21:08 DrDuck: 2nd or 3rd edition? The math isn't too bad if you can just learn a couple rules of thumb for O-analysis. 19:21:17 klutometis: Third. 19:21:26 klutometis: Apparently, you can write simple macros in R too. What annoys me the most about the language is that it has tried to cater to imperative types. 19:21:34 cky: No; thanks! I had tried to Google for it with no luck. 19:21:45 klutometis: Hehehehe. 19:22:42 Saeren: Heh, now I must look at the full source code. :) 19:22:44 Saeren: Given S compatibility, that can't be helped. 19:23:08 dostoyevsky: :) sorry -- it's scary 19:23:28 Saeren: It wasn't _that_ bad when I last worked on it, 12 years ago (see paper I linked klutometis). 19:23:50 cky: probably -- I think it's becoming a hindrance to improving the language. 19:24:00 Saeren: You're talking about things like `substitute' and `bquote'? 19:24:05 cky: I took a look. 19:24:15 *nods* 19:24:44 klutometis: In one of the old R newsletters, there is an example of a simple macro. Yeah, substitute was used a lot. 19:25:08 http://www.stat.auckland.ac.nz/~ihaka/downloads/Compstat-2008-Slides.pdf 19:25:15 By Ross Ihaka 19:26:02 Yeah, I've seen that. 19:27:04 http://r.789695.n4.nabble.com/Ross-Ihaka-s-reflections-on-Common-Lisp-and-R-td920197.html 19:27:06 http://tinyurl.com/3cnsmrc 19:27:46 Referring to the conversation about callCC -- I actually think continuations would be very helpful to the stats community. 19:30:34 what's an example of a stats problem that would benefit from continuations? 19:30:40 i don't know a whole lot about statistics 19:34:59 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@203.145.92.117] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 19:35:23 turbofail: possibly in network analyses, where you want to find the shortest path from node A to node B? 19:35:40 turbofail: if stats include induction and search for more probable models, the applications are obvious 19:35:53 turbofail: Let's say you use a package to generate and process decision trees. The default implementation might just give you either: match/no-match. but you might want to know: Is no-match because you found it in the tree or is it no-match because it is not in the tree... if the code where programmed using continuations you could specify what actually should happen when there is the case of not-in-tree 19:36:42 dostoyevsky: Reminds me of the failure continuations in foof's match module. 19:37:03 turbofail: Couldn't you use a continuation as representing an important branch point in a maximization problem, thus being able to parallelize it? 19:39:14 drwho [~drwho@c-68-80-157-110.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:39:44 -!- DrDuck [~duck@user-24-236-92-111.knology.net] has left #scheme 19:41:50 hm 19:41:50 I think you could use callCC in many places where R normally just calls ``warning("message")'' or ``stop()'' 19:43:50 kuribas [~user@d54C43B27.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 19:45:05 withCallingHandlers({ warning("A"); 1+2 }, warning = function(w) 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