00:01:58 -!- rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:41 halp halp im so lost :( http://pastebin.com/CGttFM3w 00:13:54 dolphnDon: on line 15 it looks like you are missing a ? 00:14:17 you have (null l2) and I think you want (null? l2) 00:14:27 mithos28: Nice spotting. :-) 00:14:29 yeah 00:14:30 wow 00:14:45 thank you 00:14:49 the paste bin has nice highlighting 00:14:53 :-D 00:15:07 I visit the site using w3m, so the nice highlighting doesn't show here. :-P 00:24:58 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 00:26:09 cky: Oh, nice; you're a night of the w3m? 00:26:17 Last time I looked, it appeared to be unmaintaned. 00:26:21 s/night/knight/ 00:27:13 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:28:00 klutometis: Yes, and apparently both Riastradh and elly are w3m users too. :-) 00:28:12 cky: And, just curious: why not ELinks + SpiderMonkey? Are images that big of a deal? 00:28:16 klutometis: So it seems to be a common choice for Schemers. Well, some Schemers, at least. 00:28:48 klutometis: Does Konsole support images? I'm looking for something that doesn't open new (X) windows. 00:29:22 Not sure; I just thought that the distinguishing characteristic of w3m was images in the console. 00:29:43 Huh, I never use it for viewing images, so I wouldn't know. 00:29:45 It seemed like ELinks provided superior control and keyboard navigation; but maybe I'm wrong. 00:29:48 Oh, ok. 00:30:24 -!- [1]confab is now known as confab 00:31:22 -!- blackened [~blackened@ip-89-102-29-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:34:07 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-33.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:34:37 cky: Indeed; this is my canonical internal representation of w3m: . 00:34:56 -!- kellar [~kellar4@31.210.176.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:34:59 I realize I may have been biased by the ELinks developers, though, who mention: "There also is w3m, which has some very interesting features, such as inline images or novel control style." () 00:35:30 They seem to think that inline images are w3m's distinguishing characteristic; but maybe that's not quite true. 00:37:28 klutometis: It may be, or not. For me, w3m has the distinction of being bundled with a default Ubuntu install (unlike lynx, which was what I used previously). 00:38:18 is that a great distinction? 00:38:38 i thought it's pretty easy to install a package... 00:41:31 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:42:55 I found that links and lynx both seemed obnoxious. 00:45:19 Riastradh: Do you mind elaborating? 00:45:32 I don't remember more specifically than that. 00:45:52 Positively speaking, then, is it that w3m is pleasantly unobtrusive? 00:46:18 I used them and w3m (and maybe some others; I don't recall) and quickly came to the conclusion that links and lynx was obnoxious and w3m was not. 00:46:28 Ok. 00:47:33 It's mostly unobtrusive. It has its fair share of glitches which Some Day^TM I might try to fix, although the internals may prove too much of a mess for me to want to touch them much. 00:48:28 I may have to revisit w3m, then; I thought inline images was a gimmick and didn't explore further. ELinks has a numbered-links feature which is indispensable to me; but it looks like emacs-w3m supports them. 00:48:29 Maybe I should try to port it to Chicken. (I mentioned porting irssi to Chicken, for much of the same aim: I'm trying to learn how to use the ncurses egg (which seems to be the only curses bindings for Scheme that I know of), and what better way than try to port programs that use curses?) 00:48:32 I wish emacs-w3m worked, because I'd like to have fully Emacsy key bindings and asynchronous w3m buffers, but after I found it to be the only way I know to consistently make GNU Emacs crash with SIGSEGV I gave up. 00:48:58 -!- tali713 [~user@c-75-72-221-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:49:17 I don't view images in-line with w3m. That doesn't make any sense to me in a terminal, and 99% of the images on web pages are distractions that I really don't want to see. 00:50:31 tali713 [~user@c-75-72-221-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:51:37 anyone know off hand if all LL(1) grammars can be transformed into LL(0)? 00:53:02 rff, there's very little that cannot be accomplished by heaping enough abuse on enough grad students. 00:56:20 I'm interested in techniques for transforming LL(1) grammars into LL(0) to eliminate look ahead but I don't know if there exist cases where that is not possible 01:00:56 mykhal [~mykhal@gateway/tor-sasl/mykhal] has joined #scheme 01:05:31 rff: yes, there exist cases where it's not possible. 01:18:51 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 01:32:38 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.135.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:37:25 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:54:50 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #scheme 02:07:36 -!- mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: mithos28] 02:08:54 mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:15:18 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbec353.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:17:01 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbedd14.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 02:17:38 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Quit: gone] 02:17:39 -!- woonie [~woonie@175.156.210.15] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 02:22:32 -!- mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: mithos28] 02:25:32 mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:26:29 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-135-221.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:33:19 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:33:42 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:40:21 wingo [~wingo@netblock-208-127-242-10.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 02:47:18 -!- wingo [~wingo@netblock-208-127-242-10.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:51:33 samth_ [~samth@c-98-216-239-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:18:27 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 03:24:12 -!- dolphnDon [~king@adsl-108-207-195-211.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 03:27:19 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 03:29:58 -!- tali713 [~user@c-75-72-221-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:53:18 -!- samth_ [~samth@c-98-216-239-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:00:29 -!- mykhal [~mykhal@gateway/tor-sasl/mykhal] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:02:51 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:18:33 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 04:25:48 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:26:15 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:31:40 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:37:01 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:44:27 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:53:24 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:56:21 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:56:25 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.136.178] has joined #scheme 04:57:50 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:05:37 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 05:09:59 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:14:53 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:16:32 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 05:35:00 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:35:05 -!- ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:37:52 ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 05:38:04 ajmi [~ajmi@41.238.16.29] has joined #scheme 05:39:30 Tekk_ [~user@cpe-071-077-209-233.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:41:19 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 05:52:08 kellar [~kellar4@31.210.176.99] has joined #scheme 05:52:35 mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 05:53:01 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:59:51 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 06:04:56 -!- ajmi [~ajmi@41.238.16.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:06:48 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:11:02 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:11:44 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:13:16 wingo [~wingo@netblock-208-127-242-10.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 06:15:51 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:17:39 ajmi [~ajmi@41.238.0.249] has joined #scheme 06:18:14 -!- wingo [~wingo@netblock-208-127-242-10.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:18:36 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@68-188-56-8.static.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:19:59 -!- ajmi [~ajmi@41.238.0.249] has quit [Client Quit] 06:25:11 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 06:41:19 masm [~masm@2.80.137.208] has joined #scheme 06:53:03 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-ovmemcjvffikafeq] has joined #scheme 06:55:12 githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:58:42 -!- mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: mithos28] 07:19:25 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 07:22:52 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #scheme 07:22:52 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Changing host] 07:22:52 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 07:23:45 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-170-3.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:36:20 -!- dRbiG [p@static-78-8-120-130.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:39:30 kpal [eart0186@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 07:43:41 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-186-199-196.range86-186.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:50:46 Brendan_T [~brendan@static.112.22.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 07:53:45 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 07:54:11 -!- pjb is now known as Guest96407 07:54:34 -!- Guest96407 is now known as pjb 07:55:02 weirdo [sthalik@kronstadt.lain.pl] has joined #scheme 08:02:56 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.136.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:12:31 someone answered me a few days ago that clisp is different enough from scheme to be worth learning. are there actually any language features which are unique to clisp over scheme (or generally) which I should be looking out for? 08:12:54 kellar: s/clisp/CL/g 08:13:11 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.133.232] has joined #scheme 08:13:23 kellar: clisp is an implementation, scheme is a language. You can't get any more different than that. 08:13:32 pjb: :-) 08:13:49 kellar: pjb is right; CLISP is an implementation of Common Lisp (CL), just like mIRC is a client for IRC. 08:14:35 kellar: In any case, CL is worlds apart from Scheme, and shouldn't really even be compared with Scheme. 08:14:44 kellar: Have a look at http://antoszka.pl/features-of-common-lisp and http://antoszka.pl/lisp-answers (mirrored from temporarily defunct abhishek.geez.nz). 08:15:06 kellar: pjb has a demonstration program of the (extremely small) common subset between CL and Scheme. 08:15:10 s/geez/geek/, geez 08:15:23 kellar: It's about the same size as the common subset of, say, Perl and JS. 08:16:09 kellar: It's interesting working in a language that doesn't guarentee TCO; and where globals are frequently written with *stars*. 08:16:26 It's also a learning exercise navigating the deprecated vs. modern library syntax, etc. 08:16:53 It's good to experience the pain-in-the-ass of decorating your functions when you invoke them as variables. 08:16:57 hmm 08:17:59 If Scheme were your wife, CL would be some warty mistress whose virtue is that she will send you home with a new appreciation for clean and unblemished skin. 08:18:14 Lol. 08:18:33 Spoken like a true Schemer. (I'm sure pjb will have something different to say, coming from the CL side of the fence.) 08:18:42 Heh. 08:18:48 CL. vs Scheme. FIGHT! 08:18:51 not really 08:19:27 well, getting to know schem through SICP . it's wondeful how concise the exposition of fundamental CS ideas is 08:19:48 kellar: Any functional language can express those ideas very concisely, in my experience. 08:19:50 Yeah; save CL for PAIP. Get through SICP first. 08:20:00 what I'm asking is, are there any such Ideas missing from scheme, I could get too know if I took the time to learn CL? 08:20:00 Hehehehehe. 08:20:13 to even 08:20:27 kellar: So, I'll get lynched for saying this in #scheme, right, but you might consider looking at Haskell for things that "aren't in Scheme". 08:20:32 klutometis: +1 for ewarty mistresses 08:20:49 cky: That's an interesting suggestion. 08:21:10 cky: ah, you shouldn't have said that. but that's already planned anyway. I'm specifically asking about CL. 08:21:18 kellar: One thing you might experince in CL are type annotations for efficiency. 08:21:50 And, depending on the implementation, there might be superior support for SLIME; profiling tools, etc. 08:21:55 klutometis: you mean helping the type inference pick up the slack? 08:23:48 kellar: Something like that; if you know a variable is an int, I'm sure there are some assembly optimizations you can do, etc. 08:24:12 ok, if that's all, not much going for it. 08:25:03 I'd hate to miss something mind-blowing like streams, lazy-evaluation and infinite data-structures, if there were something of that caliber in CL but not in scheme. 08:25:19 else, it's on to Haskell. 08:28:11 Don't forget currying. (Re Haskell.) 08:28:44 OTOH, Haskell doesn't have macros or continuations. 08:29:01 (I'm sure someone is going to correct me on that last statement. Oh well. :-P) 08:29:15 kellar: foremost, it's standardization of some practical features that CL has over scheme. Eg. CL has dynamic binding, while in scheme, it's in a SRFI. Or CL has condition, while in scheme, you don't know what (error "x") does. 08:29:44 anything special with regards to concurrency support in in CL? 08:29:58 No, it's not standardized. 08:30:09 A lot of things are missing still. 08:30:54 cky: hmm isn't (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (stuff))), for f(x,y) all that currying is? all lisps can do that no? 08:31:07 No. :-P 08:31:15 which part no? 08:31:52 Okay. In Haskell, all functions are effectively unary. If a function needs to take 5 arguments, then it's actually a unary function that returns a unary function that returns a unary function that .... 08:31:55 kellar: the difference, is that for nice currying, all the functions should take only a single argument. (multiple arguments being simulated with tuples). In lisp functions take multiple arguments, so currying is not nice. 08:32:40 clojure is said to have unique concurrency mechanisms? can someone elaborate? 08:32:57 kellar: Clojure has STM (software transactional memory), which isn't commonly seen in other languages. 08:33:33 In the STM model, as I understand it (I've never used it), you enclose all state-changing operations inside, effectively, a transaction. 08:33:51 That way, you never have to mess with locks manually. 08:33:55 cky: ok, suppose all-unary function are enforced by the language. what's nice about that? 08:34:04 ahh 08:34:23 It allows for smooth currying. 08:34:41 simon peyton jones wrote about STM in "beautiful code", been meaning to read that. 08:35:23 that's circular. what's currying nice for then? 08:35:41 kellar: Currying is very useful in functional programming because it allows you to specialise functions with ease. 08:35:47 Partial evaluation for example. 08:36:01 ahh, Just read about that yesterday. 08:36:21 (map (lambda (x) (+ x 2)) list) --> (map (curry + 2) list) 08:37:58 f(x,list) -> f(list)? 08:39:10 g(y)=f(x,y) f(x,list) --> g(list) 08:39:56 true 08:40:59 Here's an example where currying was extensively used in the Haskell version, and where the lack of currying in Scheme (and all other Lisp dialects) is painfully obvious: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7467367/how-to-implement-the-haskell-function/7467525#7467525 08:41:00 http://tinyurl.com/3g9fzhd 08:41:00 is this something the compiler/interpreter can use to optimize (like jit the curry as an inner loop) or does the programmer have more power using this? 08:41:18 (BTW, pjb, if you want to post a CL implementation of that, that'd be nice for the OP, I'm certain.) 08:41:41 kellar: It's purely an expressiveness aid. 08:42:24 We have several currying functions and macros in libraries... 08:43:06 pjb: Right, but it's not automatic the way it is for Haskell, was what I meant. 08:44:20 yes. 08:45:16 haskell has beautiful syntax. 08:45:48 it's like it came down to earth to atone for the sins of perl. 08:46:50 Lol. 08:46:56 IIRC, Haskell predated Perl. 08:49:11 time is meaningless where it came from. 08:49:29 :-P 08:50:40 cky: did we talk about local function in emacs a couple days ago? it was late... 08:51:49 No, I'm not in #emacs. 08:52:27 I don't use Emacs very much, except when I'm doing Scheme programming. (Nothing beats Paredit for editing Scheme code.) 08:53:43 I should keep logs. someone said it's Impossible, and now I can't enlighten him with what I've learned myself. 08:53:52 yeah, paredit is nice. 08:54:13 it was actually in this channel. hang on - public logs! 08:54:55 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:55:20 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 08:57:46 bingo 08:58:15 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:58:35 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@67-23-4-190.static.slicehost.net] has left #scheme 08:58:35 Tekk_: buffer-local functions are possible in emacs. pjb pasted a pretty example using macros and buffer-local variables 08:58:36 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:58:42 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@67-23-4-190.static.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 08:58:43 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@67-23-4-190.static.slicehost.net] has left #scheme 08:58:59 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 08:59:00 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@67-23-4-190.static.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 08:59:20 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124684 09:00:50 when a stackoverflow.com answer points you at TWO different SRFI, does that count as O(2^n) ? 09:01:44 kellar: Lol. 09:01:51 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-ovmemcjvffikafeq] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:02:03 kellar: My answers tend to use as many SRFIs as I think are useful. 09:02:17 kellar: (I'm presuming you're commenting on my answer.) 09:03:05 yes. 09:03:10 :-) 09:03:47 nice witness-protectionized photo there, friend. 09:04:07 you look like a horse. 09:06:05 multiple-valued expressions? 09:06:31 Lol. 09:07:11 http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/37328/my-godits-full-of-unicorns 09:07:45 Last year, for April Fool's, they replaced everybody's avatar with unicorns. 09:07:58 Some of us keep those unicorn avatars as a memento of the occasion. 09:08:37 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 09:08:54 kellar: Yes, Scheme has expressions that return multiple values. 09:08:59 kubrick and unicorns, couldn't be more geek-chicque if you tried. 09:09:09 why? isn't that just syntactice sugar for returning a list? 09:09:14 No. 09:09:18 Lists and MV are separate concepts. 09:10:23 Of course, it's easy to turn a MV return into a list. 09:10:54 rudybot: (define-syntax-rule (multiple-value-list expr) (call-with-values (lambda () expr) list)) 09:10:55 cky: your sandbox is ready 09:10:55 cky: Done. 09:11:13 rudybot: (require srfi/1) 09:11:13 cky: Done. 09:11:45 rudybot: (multiple-value-list (split-at (iota 10) 5)) 09:11:45 cky: ; Value: ((0 1 2 3 4) (5 6 7 8 9)) 09:13:11 (The name "multiple-value-list" comes from CL.) 09:13:42 SRFI 8's receive macro is basically equivalent to CL's multiple-value-bind. 09:15:50 so it gives you binding of MV returned to named variables in an environment? 09:17:38 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-bpngvrqxgeeyeuni] has joined #scheme 09:17:38 I don't like to use the word "environment" in that context, but basically yes, it names those values for the duration of the block. 09:18:17 rudybot: (define-syntax-rule (multiple-value-bind lambda-list expr body ...) (call-with-values (lambda () expr) (lambda lambda-list body ...))) 09:18:17 cky: Done. 09:19:11 rudybot: (multiple-value-bind (a d) (car+cdr '(1 2 3 4)) (printf "car = ~a, cdr = ~a" a d)) 09:19:11 cky: sort of like "my engine lets me get to the mall"... "no, it's your car that lets you get to the mall" 09:19:15 rudybot: eval (multiple-value-bind (a d) (car+cdr '(1 2 3 4)) (printf "car = ~a, cdr = ~a" a d)) 09:19:15 cky: ; stdout: "car = 1, cdr = (2 3 4)" 09:20:19 rudybot: ((lambda (x) x) (lambda (x) x)) 09:20:19 kellar: your sandbox is ready 09:20:19 kellar: ; Value: # 09:20:25 Oh, yes. CL's format pattern language is _much_ more capable than the ones provided by many Scheme implementations. 09:21:15 And of course, CL's LOOP macro is like a mini-DSL itself. :-P 09:22:41 what's a format pattern language ? 09:22:46 Stop with this useless trolling, please. 09:23:05 What do you need in format that is not in Racket 09:23:27 CL vs. Racket. FIGHT! 09:23:33 not really. 09:24:34 oh "%02d". I feel silly. 09:25:34 ohwow: Dude, I'm not actually on CL's side. kellar was asking for a comparison earlier, so I was pointing out things that are different. 09:25:47 cky: still, nice-to-have features but probably won't change your entire view of programming. 09:25:57 Right 09:26:09 yes I was. thanks for the info. 09:26:43 :-) 09:28:44 is there a way to manipulate the global environment from regular code (rather then through a debugger that is) 09:28:46 ? 09:29:13 What are you trying to do? 09:34:55 I'm wondering if it's possible, as some sort of introspection mechanism. is the scheme debugger written in scheme? 09:35:13 Yes, but it necessarily accesses internals that are not portable. 09:35:35 Well, that's too strong of a statement. I'm sure in some implementations it's actually not written in Scheme. 09:35:54 is there any API for getting that sort of data? 09:36:00 No portable ones. 09:36:18 you mean check the implementation's docs? 09:36:20 jrapdx0 [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:36:33 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #scheme 09:36:46 I mean that some implementations aren't even going to expose any of that stuff. 09:37:02 But even in implementations that do, there is no common uniform interface. 09:37:04 what about racket ;-) 09:37:13 kellar: I dunno, ask eli. :-P 09:37:56 if any implementation has it, racket either does or will, they have a reputation to uphold. 09:38:39 actually, since racket has a teaching orientation to it, it would make sense that it should have something like that. 09:39:18 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:43:50 _danb_ [~user@124-149-186-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 09:44:51 What was the question? 09:46:55 skld [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has joined #scheme 09:47:05 eli: kellar wanted to know whether Racket's debugger is written in Racket. 09:47:21 eli: And in particular, that special introspective features Racket provides to implement such a debugger. 09:47:22 Yes, it is. 09:47:30 s/that/what/ 09:47:35 -!- skld [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has left #scheme 09:47:48 Continuation-marks are most of it. 09:48:27 eli: can I dump the symbol table for my own program from within my program? 09:48:43 Burlingk [~burlingk@softbank221067045171.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 09:48:46 kellar: That depends on what you mean by "symbol tablee." 09:48:51 s/ee/e 09:49:19 suppose I (defun flimsybottlebot) 09:49:47 Then you get a syntax error. 09:49:55 can I somehow see the data structure for it in racket's innards? 09:50:08 ah yeah, elisp 09:50:15 you know what I mean. 09:50:29 But more seriously, there is a difference between the toplevel namespace (which is what you work with at the REPL) and the names that are bound in a module. 09:51:17 See `namespace-mapped-symbols' for example. 09:51:40 Also, there's a difference in how you deal with plain bindings and syntax level bindings. 09:52:39 can I for example change the name assocuiated with a procedure by manipulating some inner data structure of racker? 09:52:42 racket even 09:54:02 Yes. 09:54:36 I'm getting to know emacs and it's architecture, and it's crazy-nice that you can redefine the code for the system you're running on while you're running on it. 09:54:41 You can do that with `namespace-set-variable-value!', but `eval' is popular too. 09:55:07 Also, you should disable inlining when the module is loaded, since otherwise it won't allow such redefinitions. 09:55:18 I'm just wondering how deep that concept exists in scheme in general , (and since it seems to be a matter of implementation, not standard) in racket specifically 09:55:35 The Emacs thing that you're referring to can be nice, but has some inherent problems. 09:56:02 It's much less popular in all schemes than it is in other lisps. 09:56:12 what problems? 09:56:50 I'll do this briefly, since I really need to sleep a little. 09:56:55 You can easily break the system by redefining the wrong function. 09:57:20 rudybot: (define (cplus x) (lambda (y) (* x y))) 09:57:20 eli: your sandbox is ready 09:57:20 eli: Done. 09:57:32 rudybot: (define add7 (cplus 7)) 09:57:32 eli: Done. 09:57:39 rudybot: (add7 10) 09:57:39 eli: ; Value: 70 09:57:45 kellar: See the bug? 09:58:59 that seems to do what it should 09:59:16 what's the problem? 09:59:19 Um, no, it didn't add 7. 09:59:55 Anyway, I'll fix the bug: 10:00:02 rudybot: (define (cplus x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) 10:00:02 eli: Done. 10:00:06 rudybot: (add7 10) 10:00:07 eli: ; Value: 70 10:00:23 That's the quick-quick version of why it's problematic. 10:01:46 Right, because add7 uses the old binding of cplus, not the new one. 10:02:25 *cky* goes to sleep too. 10:02:32 all I'm seeing is that it did what it was told to do. 10:03:11 are you just saying supporting that you could easily bring down the system? that's ok. 10:03:15 with great power... 10:04:00 Don't want to keep you anyway. thanks, good night. 10:05:29 kellar: in "systems", uou have functions that run continuously, in loops. Redefining those functions won't make them exit the loop and recall the function either. So it's hard to maintain the consistency, when modifying several related functions. 10:08:35 pjb: I know it' can't be turtles all the way down, but if emacs is 30/70 c/elisp i'm wondering if it's possible to do better, and i'm sort of assuming someone somewhere did 10:08:53 kellar: it could easily be 100% lisp. 10:09:10 This ratio is historical, and reflect old optimizations. 10:09:12 performance? 10:09:28 what's the emacs++, in terms of that kind of philosophy for a system? 10:09:28 Yes. 10:09:40 I don't know what emacs++ is. 10:09:55 There are emacsen entirely written in scheme or in CL. 10:10:16 great. what's the scheme one? 10:10:26 edwin 10:12:14 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-bpngvrqxgeeyeuni] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:12:28 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.137.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:13:04 hmm. http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EdwinScheme makes it sound like it much LESS open then emacs, even though it's 100% scheme. 10:13:50 emacs's eval for instance is based in C, I couldn't add a special form at runtime if I wanted to. 10:17:11 a year ago I think I watched a lecture by this guy. I think I'm starting to understand what he's trying to do. 10:17:12 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2483 10:27:13 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-yvqjpymmgjsntzld] has joined #scheme 10:30:10 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbedd14.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:31:59 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfdd45.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 10:50:53 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 10:55:14 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-yvqjpymmgjsntzld] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:59:57 hkBst [~quassel@79.170.210.172] has joined #scheme 10:59:59 -!- hkBst [~quassel@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 10:59:59 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 11:04:56 chturne [~chturne@2.26.72.157] has joined #scheme 11:15:26 masm [~masm@2.80.137.208] has joined #scheme 11:17:32 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-ihtbesuzccfnfqdc] has joined #scheme 11:34:36 -!- Intensity [XHwCtvVA9c@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:41:47 -!- Burlingk [~burlingk@softbank221067045171.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:42:13 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.133.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:53:43 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:53:58 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 12:01:35 SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:10:21 f8l [~f8l@81.219.207.135] has joined #scheme 12:15:57 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #scheme 12:24:28 SteveG1 [~steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:25:15 -!- mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has left #scheme 12:29:28 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 12:30:29 xissburg [~xissburg@187.50.13.57] has joined #scheme 12:32:28 -!- SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:33:09 SteveG [~SteveG@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:33:41 -!- SteveG1 [~steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #scheme 12:33:51 rff [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 12:34:12 -!- SteveG [~SteveG@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #scheme 12:36:44 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-110-130.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 12:37:02 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37:08 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-135-221.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:37:08 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 12:38:14 pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:41:06 thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.23.32] has joined #scheme 12:41:54 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:42:18 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 12:47:32 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 12:54:08 SteveG [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:55:53 -!- kellar [~kellar4@31.210.176.99] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:56:52 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-186-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:03:30 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 13:06:43 wingo [~wingo@netblock-208-127-242-10.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 13:08:58 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:09:40 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:10:48 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:12:47 kellar [~kellar4@31.210.186.34] has joined #scheme 13:12:49 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 13:13:13 -!- wingo [~wingo@netblock-208-127-242-10.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:13:25 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:13:30 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:14:10 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 13:15:01 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:26:12 -!- incubot [incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:26:45 incubot [incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 13:28:57 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@static.112.22.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:30:57 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-6.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:31:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-6.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:45:54 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:50:40 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-33.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 13:52:37 pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has joined #scheme 13:53:51 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:59:57 -!- f8l is now known as fn_pirate 14:08:11 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:10:25 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 14:15:33 rbuck_ [rbuck@nat/redhat/x-zbwyvtmnvrvzdhtw] has joined #scheme 14:16:16 -!- rbuck_ [rbuck@nat/redhat/x-zbwyvtmnvrvzdhtw] has quit [Client Quit] 14:17:16 rbuck [rbuck@nat/redhat/x-yzcifcsfjyinhcrs] has joined #scheme 14:18:40 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-160-219.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 14:30:10 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 14:31:05 soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #scheme 14:32:33 sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:38:26 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-110-130.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 14:40:01 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.23.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:44:44 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:45:04 -!- rbuck [rbuck@nat/redhat/x-yzcifcsfjyinhcrs] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:11 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #scheme 14:45:57 thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.23.32] has joined #scheme 14:47:47 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:47 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 14:49:20 ijp [~user@host86-173-115-76.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 14:58:25 rbuck [rbuck@nat/redhat/x-qsppxungxxsutncq] has joined #scheme 15:00:06 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 15:05:28 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 15:08:07 mykhal [~mykhal@gateway/tor-sasl/mykhal] has joined #scheme 15:08:34 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has left #scheme 15:09:59 -!- rbuck [rbuck@nat/redhat/x-qsppxungxxsutncq] has quit [Quit: rbuck gone away...] 15:11:55 rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 15:17:17 samth_ [~samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:17:43 -!- samth_ [~samth@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 15:18:38 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-59-169.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:22:43 sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:23:13 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-3-241.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 15:24:25 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 15:24:32 sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:27:11 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-178-227.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 15:27:14 y3llow_ [~y3llow@111-240-178-227.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 15:27:56 -!- y3llow_ is now known as y3llow 15:32:24 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-160-219.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:34:41 peterhil` [~peterhil@GGMD.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 15:37:42 -!- soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:20 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 15:45:14 fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-239-43.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 15:50:47 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:51:40 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:03 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 15:54:31 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:58:12 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.128.139] has joined #scheme 16:01:11 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 16:03:35 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 16:05:10 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:06:27 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 16:07:18 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:56 gffa [~gffa@5249FBAA.cm-4-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #scheme 16:10:13 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-6.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:10:26 -!- gffa [~gffa@5249FBAA.cm-4-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Changing host] 16:10:26 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 16:10:56 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-207.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:11:37 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-207.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:11:42 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-231-219.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 16:12:44 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-6.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:16:57 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 16:18:16 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:31 -!- fn_pirate [~f8l@81.219.207.135] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 16:20:41 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-ihtbesuzccfnfqdc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:22 replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:24:50 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:27:53 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:29:14 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-231-219.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:32:48 Intensity [5slrovgLJf@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #scheme 16:42:08 -!- ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:43:41 jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:49:11 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:58 markskilbeck [~user@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #scheme 16:51:41 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-239-43.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:50 ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 16:55:37 ahinki [~chatzilla@AAmiens-551-1-30-209.w92-131.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 16:56:02 xwl [~user@194.100.69.130] has joined #scheme 16:59:01 markskil` [~user@host81-132-125-61.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:00:37 -!- markskilbeck [~user@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:00:41 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:03 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:03:04 sstrickl_ [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:04:24 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 17:14:25 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 17:17:53 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-199-177.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 17:18:50 tab1ta [~TAB1TA@host136-10-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 17:23:22 saccadewrk [saccadewrk@nat/google/x-fxjukszelbrmvtfe] has joined #scheme 17:23:34 saccadewrk_ [saccadewrk@nat/google/x-xmqjqvjuhbknfodm] has joined #scheme 17:23:43 -!- saccadewrk_ [saccadewrk@nat/google/x-xmqjqvjuhbknfodm] has quit [Client Quit] 17:24:28 -!- markskil` [~user@host81-132-125-61.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:24:54 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 17:26:14 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:26:48 metasyntax|work [~taylor@fw-its-kt209a-2.dyn.ipfw.edu] has joined #scheme 17:27:34 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 17:29:24 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:29:43 -!- xwl [~user@194.100.69.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:11 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:38:28 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 17:42:20 soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #scheme 17:46:03 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:47:59 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:50:05 HG` [~HG@p5DC05C2A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:55:33 -!- jrapdx0 [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:56:00 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:57:41 -!- ijp [~user@host86-173-115-76.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:01:06 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-2-131-32.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 18:08:16 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 18:10:51 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 18:23:41 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:23:48 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:30:15 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:30:16 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-207.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:30:41 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-207.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:31:26 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:33:19 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:39:12 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 18:41:25 -!- tab1ta [~TAB1TA@host136-10-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:43:15 -!- sstrickl_ is now known as sstrickl 18:45:07 blackened [~blackened@ip-89-102-29-120.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #scheme 18:50:10 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:50:25 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:51:02 -!- asumu [~at@2001:470:b:b7:1e6f:65ff:fe23:c3d4] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:52:41 tab1ta [~TAB1TA@host136-10-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 18:52:45 -!- tab1ta [~TAB1TA@host136-10-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 18:53:26 djcb` [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 18:54:35 -!- djcb` [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55:38 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:56:14 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 18:57:01 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.128.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:57:13 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:58:59 asumu [~at@2001:470:b:b7:1e6f:65ff:fe23:c3d4] has joined #scheme 19:05:32 -!- sjamaan [~sjamaan@netbsd/developer/sjamaan] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:10:38 sjamaan [~sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 19:10:38 -!- sjamaan [~sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has quit [Changing host] 19:10:38 sjamaan [~sjamaan@netbsd/developer/sjamaan] has joined #scheme 19:23:17 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 19:31:17 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfdd45.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: "reboot tut gut"] 19:31:42 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfdd45.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 19:31:57 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 19:32:56 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:35:40 -!- ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:41:04 ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 19:41:08 phax [~phax@5ade597a.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 19:41:08 -!- phax [~phax@5ade597a.bb.sky.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:41:08 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 19:42:07 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-199-177.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 19:43:20 arcfide [1000@dhcp-cs-244-96.cs.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 19:44:16 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@AAmiens-551-1-30-209.w92-131.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:07 ineiros_ [~itniemin@cs27065016.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 19:54:16 rbuck [~rbuck@mobile-198-228-198-178.mycingular.net] has joined #scheme 20:01:00 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-2-131-32.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #scheme 20:03:00 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:03:01 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:03:47 -!- rbuck [~rbuck@mobile-198-228-198-178.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: rbuck gone away...] 20:07:31 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 20:24:10 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 20:24:30 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05C2A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 20:24:35 hoi 20:29:19 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@GGMD.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:32:49 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 20:33:34 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:38:42 peterhil` [~peterhil@GGYCMXLVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 20:43:26 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 20:46:21 -!- soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:39 githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has joined #scheme 20:49:04 rff [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 20:50:48 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:58:50 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:58:58 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 21:12:17 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:20:31 -!- xissburg [~xissburg@187.50.13.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:28 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 21:23:18 Hi jcowan, how's life? 21:24:16 *fds* hasn't been following the R7RS saga for the last few weeks. 21:26:33 weirdo_ [sthalik@kronstadt.lain.pl] has joined #scheme 21:27:28 -!- weirdo [sthalik@kronstadt.lain.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:28:25 -!- weirdo_ is now known as weirdo 21:29:19 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:29:21 Well, the fourth ballot is closed and reported, and I've updated the draft with some but not all of the issues. Unfortunately, the other two editors are otherwise occupied, so we won't see a draft for several weeks at least. 21:29:34 jcowan: Did they ever release a video or recording of your talk? 21:29:41 Give them time. 21:30:08 It was done on professional equipment, so I'm sure it'll be a good one when it does come out, but it's not just a matter of uploading cell-phone video to YouTube. 21:30:13 A jcowan talk, I'd like to see that. 21:30:35 Me too :-) 21:30:35 Slides at http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/scheme-2011-09.{pdf,ppt} 21:30:57 I am amazed at all the places I stumble across jcowan on the internet. 21:32:45 Although they might not *all* be the same jcowan. 21:33:46 levi: jcowan reminds me of this: ; I think he also has a section on his website dedicated to "Not That John Cowan." 21:35:01 -!- Tekk_ [~user@cpe-071-077-209-233.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:35:16 Yeah, I just came across that. 21:38:17 I'll have to watch that video when not at work 21:42:19 ahahah that's hilarious 21:42:22 20-odd people showed up, and four wrote commentary (all raves), so that's pretty good. 21:45:06 Eric S. Redmond is hilarious. 21:45:20 Lol. 21:47:25 And cobol-horrors is classic. 21:48:33 Thanks. 21:48:40 jcowan: slides are good summary, if typo in slide 10--I think it should be "case insensitive"? 21:50:50 jcowan doesn't misspell things, he's just writing in a slightly different language. :P 21:53:41 Fixed and uploaded, thanks. 21:53:54 I also uploaded an .odp version 21:53:59 \o/ 21:56:34 I see that the real ESR has removed his point 7 (about Bin Ladin, as mine is about RMS) but scurvily failed to update the date. 21:56:56 jcowan: a question, in slide 19, is there a similar set for bytevector. Seems like it would be logical. 21:57:42 I think The Elements of Style needs more illustrations and songs. 21:57:53 No, there isn't. They will be part of the WG2 bytevector package 21:58:11 WG1 only has minimal bytevector support; the issue was raised explicitly and voted down. 21:58:44 There are really two views of these things: that they are vectors of small integers, and that they are agglomerations of bits that are treated 8 at a time for convenience. 21:59:00 known as the "bytevector view" and the "blob view". 21:59:13 The name "bytevector" passed, but the features are more like the blob view. 22:01:19 probably I'd be a "blobist" accordingly. If not really a 'vector', the name is slightly misleading. More like a byte-buffer or something like that. 22:10:38 Well, it's like a vector in that you can move u8s in and out 22:11:52 in the full-monty version, you can do the same with lots of other low-level datatypes too: 22:12:22 {u,s}{8,16,32,64,128} 22:12:52 also f(n){32,64}, c(n){64,128}, most of them {be,le,native} 22:21:58 So that leads to the question: what's the best way to write fold and unfold functions for blobs? 22:23:47 Or is it better to use map and for-each, and if so, how? 22:24:00 (that is, bytevector versions of them, and what should they look like?) 22:25:07 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 22:25:22 -!- githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:49 what you are describing sounds like a pumped-up srfi-4, and that's good. my original thought was around the use of bytevector as in//out buffer and inter-conversion with strings, as in web applications. 22:26:44 Interconversion with strings is in WG1, but only UTF-8. 22:27:11 After much debate, buffering control was removed from WG1 but will probably return in WG2. 22:28:32 I would love to see a high-level language with really good binary data interaction. Or a low-level language, even. 22:29:24 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:29:29 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:30:30 I program network protocols at work. C is so close to providing a nice way to deal with binary data that the reality that it doesn't is just that much more disappointing. 22:30:41 don't see a real problem re: bytevectors, as similar to u8vectors, but there's a need to find char data in binary stream, e.g., mime parsing. 22:32:31 in r5, strings were used as buffers for all data, making it fairly straightforward to find string data. A little trickier with bytevectors to do that. 22:34:34 R6RS has a strategy, but it's a sucky one: character ports are built on binary ports, but because of buffering issues, the binary port then becomes unusable. 22:35:00 So WG1 binary ports are effectively disjoint from textual ones, though the implementation may make them the same thing. 22:36:08 -!- yell0 [yello@178.162.154.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:38:37 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:40:12 ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 22:41:49 text/binary/buffering is a headache. in a lot of situations, one can't really keep text/binary data cleanly separated. that may be the source of trouble 22:42:21 -!- arcfide [1000@dhcp-cs-244-96.cs.indiana.edu] has left #scheme 22:45:59 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-39-5-4.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:47:33 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-220-49.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:49:06 tunes [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 22:50:12 -!- tunes is now known as Fare 22:51:47 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 22:57:42 Indeed. I think the answer is to do binary I/O, and then put the conversion into bytevector routines rather than into ports, leaving textual ports as a backwards compat and convenience feature. 22:58:07 That way you don't have to worry about state. There will need to be an efficient way to search bytevectors, as you point out. 23:03:20 -!- tauntaun [~user@li327-197.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:21 appreciate what you're saying and pretty well describes what I've wound up doing. I've been thinking it should be possible to use a kmp partial search method (as in srfi-13) but with u8-data. 23:09:10 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 23:15:49 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:16:16 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-110-130.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:17:48 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-5-4.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:49 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.137.208] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:20:38 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-5-4.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:26:44 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:36:19 Is this the logical conclusion of Greenspun's tenth rule? http://dyncall.org/ 23:36:42 (I.e., "any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp.") 23:36:49 Or is it some other form of genius? 23:37:14 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 23:37:24 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:39:15 githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:40:13 klutometis: seems to be what greenspun was on about :D 23:41:11 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 23:45:07 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.128.139] has joined #scheme 23:46:43 -!- rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:36 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]