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If I make them mutable, it just makes everything a little messier... 15:37:19 -!- denisw [~denisw@dslb-094-222-018-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:37:35 (from a language-design perspective...) 15:38:04 hi 15:38:36 dostoyevsky, immutable strings are non-standards-compliant 15:38:40 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:38:48 weirdo: Hey, how's your scheeme->js doing? 15:38:57 Not every operation has to copy them, dostoyevsky. 15:39:01 dostoyevsky, on hold temporarily. too much work :( 15:39:13 also, other project. check out http://epicsol.org/~sthalik/utf-8.txt 15:39:14 For example, taking a substring need not copy an immutable string. 15:39:41 Appending two immutable strings may be a matter of consing a node in a tree, without copying the two substrings. 15:40:31 Riastradh: Yeah, I wonder whether organizing strings as conses would be helpful... It might offer the best of both worlds.. 15:41:58 modern javascript implementations typically have three or so string representations, fwiw 15:43:38 weirdo: utf-8 support can be a lot of work.. 15:43:47 dostoyevsky, not really. just use wchar_t :-) 15:43:53 -!- soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:23 the program i'm writing the library for has some strange quirks like ircII-style HOLD_MODE and i dunno whether to support it 15:45:10 weirdo: Ruby became a lot slower once they started to support unicode.. it could really slow down string operations a lot... I am not sure why... 15:45:34 dostoyevsky, ruby is slow for many reasons, including dynamic lexical scope 15:46:07 imagine that every lexical variable access is O(log n) at best, and probably O(n) 15:46:20 just like a naive scheme interpreter from LiSP 15:48:16 weirdo: Variable access might be easy to optimize, however... Just try to predict which scope a variable might be in and have some overhead for when scopes might change... 15:49:40 Usually the overhead of tracking scopes of variables is lower than finding their scope every time... 15:49:52 dostoyevsky, but you still have to walk the list of the binding scope 15:55:11 I think ruby strings support different encodings... instead of just unicode for everything... this probably is why it can become quite slow, when mixing encodings... 15:55:31 phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has joined #scheme 15:55:46 Just use unicode for everything. :) 15:56:08 weirdo: Maybe I do not yet fully comprehend lexical v dynamic scopes. :) 15:56:28 oh 16:00:18 E.g. working with webpages usually requires you to have support for working with encodings.. 16:02:31 Ok, my scheme seems to implement dynamic scoping... cute... :) 16:05:59 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:06:19 jeapostrophe_ [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:06:20 -!- jeapostrophe_ is now known as jeapostrophe 16:06:49 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:08:12 soveran [~soveran@AMontsouris-752-1-140-209.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 16:08:57 good luck with that :P 16:09:33 Without TCO it just becomes slower quite naturally. :) 16:09:51 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-oiqcdywhnqfaoins] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:27 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #scheme 16:13:28 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 16:14:03 -!- rins [~rins@c-76-24-27-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:17:09 -!- wingo [~wingo@netblock-208-127-242-10.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:19:49 -!- zedstar [~john@fsf/member/zedstar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20:08 -!- f8l [~f8l@81.219.200.79] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 16:20:23 weirdo: What is EPIC exactly? 16:20:32 dostoyevsky, an IRC client 16:20:48 mostly written and maintained by a friend of mine, Jeremy Nelson 16:21:11 zedstar [~john@cpc1-haye16-2-0-cust48.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 16:21:11 -!- zedstar [~john@cpc1-haye16-2-0-cust48.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:21:11 zedstar [~john@fsf/member/zedstar] has joined #scheme 16:21:36 Is that this old one? irc with colors? 16:22:12 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 16:22:42 uh, it's pretty old, yes 16:23:22 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 16:30:39 If variables are dynamically scoped, it's not Scheme at all. Chances are you're not getting very useful `TCO' either and you won't guarantee proper tail recursion. 16:33:53 Well, the TCO just removes the scopes, so if you have TCO and dynamic scopes.... I am not sure if that could work at all... 16:36:29 BW^- [~Miranda@92.83.174.63] has joined #scheme 16:36:34 Also, I think I interpreted my code wrong. I may create a new environment each time I call a function but its parent is always the environmnent in which the lambda was first parsed... So it's lexical 16:36:44 any math optimizer libraries in scheme? large-scale mixed-integer linear optimization in the style of Gurobi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurobi 16:36:44 ? 16:38:05 This is not merely a cosmetic issue, dostoyevsky. This is crucial to the notion of Scheme. If you're shaky on whether it's lexically scoped or not, you're shaky on whether it's Scheme or not. 16:40:24 Riastradh: Is that the main difference between scheme and lisp? 16:41:05 dostoyevsky: scheme is a lisp. say clisp or cl. 16:41:07 dostoyevsky: depends on what you mean by lisp. 16:42:28 dostoyevsky: scheme was made to be a perfect lisp. cl was made to be a practical lisp. i use scheme in an excelling way for practical things. 16:42:48 dostoyevsky: scheme is purer as a language than cl 16:42:57 HG` [~HG@p5DC0491C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:43:09 (if by scheme you mean r5rs or the mini variant of r7rs and maybe r6rs) 16:43:16 \base\ 16:44:39 dostoyevsky: what you need depends a bit on what your purpose is obviously. 16:44:51 dostoyevsky, it was one of the defining characteristics of Scheme from the beginning. Archaic Lisps were dynamically scoped; modern Lisps are all lexically scoped. 16:45:03 -!- BW^- [~Miranda@92.83.174.63] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 16:45:07 BW^-: People on #lisp seem to use ``lisp'' synonymously with CL... 16:45:08 -!- saccadewrk [~saccadewr@nat/google/x-khpsxslxygsfbzre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:45:12 emacs lisp is archaic, but starting from 24, becomes more modern... 16:45:26 Anything called `Scheme' that is dynamically scoped by default is either confused or dishonest. 16:47:37 Forget `purity' or standards; lexical scope is one of the essential defining characteristics of the term `Scheme' and has been from day one, back in 1975. 16:48:03 saccadewrk [saccadewrk@nat/google/x-icspehqtpzfogdiz] has joined #scheme 16:49:02 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC0491C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:52:43 -!- phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:53:52 dostoyevsky: You should refer to Common Lisp as CL, not Lisp, and definitely not as "clisp" (as BW^- suggested). 16:54:33 dostoyevsky: (CLISP is an implementation of Common Lisp, so calling CL "clisp" is like calling IRC "mIRC".) 16:58:59 HG` [~HG@p5DC051A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:59:04 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:03:15 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:03:28 Riastradh: From my perspective as a language designer, the difference between dynamic v lexical scoping is two lines of code... I cannot see many uses for dynamic scoping, however... 17:05:40 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 17:06:03 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 17:06:46 danking [~danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:08:30 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 17:09:11 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:10:01 jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:10:41 Riastradh: I doubt also, that there actually any language today that is dynamically scoped by default... even in Perl it's just optional.. 17:11:13 dostoyevsky: emacs lisp 17:15:13 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:25:21 xwl [~user@194.100.69.130] has joined #scheme 17:25:47 -!- xwl [~user@194.100.69.130] has quit [Client Quit] 17:26:02 xwl [~user@194.100.69.130] has joined #scheme 17:27:46 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 17:28:19 denisw [~denisw@dslb-094-222-018-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 17:32:24 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 17:35:04 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 17:36:03 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:40:31 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:51:07 wingo [~wingo@netblock-208-127-242-10.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 17:53:04 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 17:55:32 fantazo [~fantazo@91-115-168-15.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 18:11:47 -!- soveran [~soveran@AMontsouris-752-1-140-209.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:38 -!- davidh` is now known as davidh 18:20:58 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-22.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:21:18 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-22.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:26:28 Anyone played with Factor, by the way? This guy had something interesting to say (): 18:26:28 http://tinyurl.com/3ev6gkh 18:26:37 "If Perl 6 could be next gen CL, Factor feels headed towards CL on a stack." 18:28:40 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 18:30:19 -!- ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:30:27 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:33:28 -!- denisw [~denisw@dslb-094-222-018-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:34:51 ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has joined #scheme 18:37:24 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 18:38:22 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:38:48 ahinki [~chatzilla@AAmiens-551-1-63-133.w86-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 18:39:11 ijp [~user@host86-182-157-221.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 18:46:22 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:48:13 stack-languages dup work not brain with swap flow-analysis to-read require swap because 18:55:04 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:24 mmm ... CL on a stick ... pork-chop on a stick (http://www.columbusalive.com/content/stories/2010/08/04/deep-fried-fair-dinner.html) 18:56:25 http://tinyurl.com/3ou74rc 18:59:05 soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #scheme 18:59:20 -!- ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:01:49 -!- xwl [~user@194.100.69.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:02:25 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 19:02:49 preflex_ [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 19:03:13 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:03:29 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex 19:04:35 githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has joined #scheme 19:05:54 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Client Quit] 19:16:28 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #scheme 19:24:23 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:24:23 -!- 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quit [*.net *.split] 19:34:34 -!- xale [~xale@2001:4b98:dc0:51:216:3eff:fef2:58dd] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:34:44 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:34:48 saccadewrk [saccadewrk@nat/google/x-zruwxdtvuufqktec] has joined #scheme 19:34:48 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #scheme 19:36:07 xale [~xale@2001:4b98:dc0:51:216:3eff:fef2:58dd] has joined #scheme 19:40:56 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 19:42:46 f8l [~f8l@81.219.200.79] has joined #scheme 19:43:25 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 19:43:56 Riastradh: nice one 19:44:08 -!- ijp [~user@host86-182-157-221.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:46:52 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 19:55:24 Intensity [XHwCtvVA9c@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #scheme 19:58:50 -!- user17 [~user@unaffiliated/user17] has quit [Read 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21:55:22 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-22.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:01:20 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@GGYYMKDCCCLXXXI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:03:20 danly|work [~user@216.81.48.202.epikip.net] has joined #scheme 22:03:43 -!- denisw [~denisw@dslb-094-222-018-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:14 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:15:13 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 22:19:56 How do compiler APIs in scheme usually look like? Mine will look like `(disassemble (compile (lambda () (* 1 2))))' 22:43:19 -!- davidh [~user@f053008254.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:07 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-255-183.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:49:18 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:50:30 The standard is (eval '(lambda () (* 1 2)) (scheme-report-environment 5)). and nothing more is specified. 22:54:07 -!- f8l [~f8l@81.219.200.79] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 22:54:08 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:59:18 -!- soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:32 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-255-183.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 23:01:41 rins [~rins@c-76-24-27-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:03:36 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:07:04 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 23:20:09 githogori_ [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has joined #scheme 23:21:02 -!- githogori_ [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:23:30 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:35:45 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-140-66.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:37:51 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 23:50:46 Has anyone come across this claim from Manfred von Thun: "Instead of lambda abstraction Joy uses program quotation, and higher order functions can be simulated by first order functions which dequote quoted programs?" (Mathematical Foundations of Joy) 23:51:01 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 23:51:38 It's lead others, apparently, to claim that "updating the stack in-place has the same semantics as the purely functional world view." () 23:54:18 That seems like a bizarre claim; but, given that recursion is reducible to explicit stack manipulation, maybe it's not so far-fetched. 23:57:13 Quotation is not lambda. Anyone who thinks so has never tried to reason about programs. 23:58:21 -!- fizzie [fis@iris.zem.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:58:25 -!- rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]