00:00:31 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:01 klutometis: On a von Neumann machine, everything uses mutation under the hood. 00:04:39 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:06:23 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 00:07:10 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:13:05 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:13:48 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 00:15:22 thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.23.32] has joined #scheme 00:16:07 in D, you can label functions as pure as long as you don't use IO or global vars. It can still be pure and use mutation. It's mostly referring to the guarantee of having a consistent output to your input 00:17:37 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:18:15 erlang goes even further. That an alpha particle from space can flip a bit and crash your system every 10 years is still part of systemic risk that must be evaluated. There's all kinds of constructs to help ensure fault tolerance and robustness. 00:22:26 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 00:22:31 borkaman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 00:24:05 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:24:38 rbuck_ [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #scheme 00:26:52 wisey [~Steven@host86-147-41-72.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 00:27:23 replor___ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 00:27:58 -!- borkaman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:29:08 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:31:07 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 00:31:44 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:32:10 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfdde7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:33:41 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:35:13 -!- rbuck_ [~rbuck@66-189-68-77.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Quit: rbuck gone away...] 00:38:17 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-147-41-72.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:46:29 -!- cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:50:25 cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:50:36 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 00:54:25 doomrobo [~michael@cpe-68-174-188-146.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:54:54 ok, I'm sure you've all heard this before but: Racket vs. MIT Scheme 01:01:01 rgrinberg [~rudi@24-246-26-34.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 01:02:44 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:07:17 foof: Too bad it's not turtles all the way down; speaking of which, are Lisp machines necessarily von Neumann? 01:07:52 jimmyrcom: D is fascinating; not sure why it hasn't gotten as much traction as e.g. Go, since it seems to be more interesting. 01:08:16 I seem to remember them open-sourcing the compiler at some point, too; maybe I will play around with it one of these days. 01:09:17 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:11:01 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:11:03 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:14:36 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:16:11 rff [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 01:19:51 -!- cdated [~fieldsb@ip70-160-25-156.hr.hr.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:23:18 leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.82] has joined #scheme 01:24:28 REPLeffect 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01:45:33 !last wingo 01:45:47 *gnomon* prods the empty space where sarahbot once sat 01:46:01 *gnomon* sighs despondently and returns to braiding spaghetti noodles 01:48:11 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:49:34 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: 1913] 01:52:37 leo2007 [~leo@114.247.10.82] has joined #scheme 01:56:11 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@static.112.22.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:56:11 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:56:11 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:56:11 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:56:11 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-167-197.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:56:11 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-82.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:56:12 -!- rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 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has joined #scheme 02:19:57 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-150-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:26:34 gnomon: watch this 02:26:36 rudybot: seen wingo 02:26:37 *offby1: wingo was seen in/on #scheme ten hours ago, saying "thanks re comments, it has taken a bit of patience ;)", and then wingo was seen quitting in/on 90.164.198.39 four hours ago, saying "Ping timeout: 240 seconds" 02:28:34 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-147-41-72.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:30:59 offby1, oho! Thank you, sir! 02:31:16 I haven't seen him in months, and he was here not ten hours ago? 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I should be more careful about aiming those. 03:48:51 :P 03:48:58 :P Do I get a lollypop? 03:48:58 *gnomon* investigates the availability of non-damaging NERF-brand gang signs 03:49:06 HAHAAH 03:49:08 :) 03:49:35 *gnomon* hands elderK a salmon chutney flavoured lollipop 03:52:11 -!- ampersandbox [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-53-55.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:55:38 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-77-146.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:58:08 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 03:58:15 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:08:10 :P bastard 04:08:58 elderK, what was the finite automaton question you wanted to ask? 04:09:08 (and yes. Yes I am.) 04:11:06 -!- G_ [~G@41.51.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:11:19 well, computing the epsilon closure for an NFA to DFA, in a nice way. 04:11:31 I'm thinking of memoizing the E-closures I compute for various states, 04:11:38 and not taking "backlinks" in the tree 04:12:08 and instead of storing the states reachable, I'll keep a list of pointers to other lists, which have reachable states 04:12:44 that way, I can say "this state reaches the states, reachable by this state" before computing that state's reachable states :P 04:13:33 Sounds like a great way to exercise your allocator and garbage collector to their respective breaking points! 04:13:39 aye, agreed. 04:13:48 which is why I'm looking for a better method. 04:13:56 I've studied a few different algorithms, I do not like them mcuh 04:14:03 I do not want to have to recompute a bunch foc arp, you know? 04:14:23 and there's the situation where one state has an epsilon transition to another state, which only has epsilons. 04:14:34 Foc arp definitely shouldn't be recomputed, indeed. 04:14:53 Not individual foc arp, and certainly not bunch foc arp. 04:14:57 continue this for a time and come to a state that has eps back to states we've already past - some of which will have been waiting for this set of states to have their reachable nodes calculated! 04:14:57 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:14:58 foc-arp? 04:15:31 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 04:16:06 elderK, I think you made a typo earlier - "foc arp", where you obviously meant "fo carp". Those are notoriously annoying fish to recompute. 04:16:29 oh, right 04:16:31 I meant of crap 04:16:31 :P 04:17:08 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 04:17:18 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfd13a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 04:24:05 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:30:17 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-192-111.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 04:32:10 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:32:14 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:33:34 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 04:34:44 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:35:09 -!- jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:35:09 -!- tunes [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:35:34 jimrees_ 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[~denisw@dslb-188-103-180-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:44:32 denisw [~denisw@dslb-188-103-180-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 09:46:43 -!- bokr [~ed@109.110.33.207] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:56:04 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-145-11.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 10:04:45 ijp [~user@host86-174-97-241.range86-174.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 10:07:07 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 10:08:43 is someone still working on SISC scheme (or a derivative thereof)? 10:11:13 denisw: I'm randomly hacking it every few weeks but i wouldn't call it 'work' 10:11:35 I'd like to bring it up to date some day 10:12:03 but that probably won't happen... I'm sticking to maintenance stuff for the moment 10:12:38 amoe, that would be great :) the thing is that I am looking for a java-based scheme with full continuations, and sisc is the only one that fits the bill 10:12:39 however I have no access/link to the official project 10:13:03 i guess the original maintainers don't work on it at all 10:13:39 denisw: nope, the project is dead upstream afaik, though ML posts might get a response 10:14:17 amoe: i would use kawa, but due to compiling to bytecode it is victim to the jvm's limitations (no continuations other than what can be done with exceptions) 10:14:18 -!- elliottcable [~me@ell.io] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:14:29 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:15:38 there is no way to bring continuations to kawa other than moving the whole kawa stack to the heap or doing complete cps transformation 10:16:26 wonder if that's planned for the JVM 10:16:58 there is a prototype as part of the Da Vinci project 10:17:25 amoe: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mlvm/subprojects.html#StackContinuations 10:17:45 i guess it will take forever to get into mainline, though (if ever) 10:18:04 the original patch is from 2008 10:18:16 funky... yeah, I was gonna say 2021 :) 10:18:41 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:18:47 probably about right :) 10:19:57 anyone know what scott and matthias from sisc are doing now? 10:20:12 scott seems to have vanished from the net altogether 10:20:30 amoe, as a scripting language with continuations is quite important for my personal project (a script-based platformer game that is), i might lend you a hand with any hypothetical updating work 10:20:52 a sisc revival project would probably be fun 10:21:53 if you want, my branch is at http://github.com/amoe/sisc ... but so far, I've just made the build process more sane and removed some deprecated stuff 10:22:28 I know there are some nastier bugs left in sisc 10:22:38 most of which are probably beyond me 10:22:47 well, it's a start 10:23:13 amoe, i will make sure look at that branch today 10:23:33 -!- djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-urfefqinfavvvtxo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:46 djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-ppphayzjulmipdhl] has joined #scheme 10:25:28 amoe, what does java interop with sisc look like? 10:25:56 http://sisc-scheme.org/manual/html/ch08.html#SchemeToJava 10:25:59 does it support clojure-style (.method object args..)? 10:26:06 fairly verbose 10:26:20 nah, it's pretty low level 10:27:05 well, with some macro magic it could certainly be made better 10:27:07 yeh 10:27:17 but i guess sisc only has syntax-rules? 10:27:36 syntax-case 10:27:51 oh great 10:28:24 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 10:28:39 that simplifies things a great deal 10:29:34 what about integration with the java script api? 10:30:07 *amoe* blinks 10:30:18 dunno what that is... guess im behind the times :) 10:31:56 hehe, it probably is 10:31:58 amoe: http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/technotes/guides/scripting/index.html 10:31:59 http://tinyurl.com/3qxjsvw 10:32:58 -!- djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-ppphayzjulmipdhl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:33:03 i'm guessing there's no explicit support for that 10:33:06 djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-ivtaiycuajudrskk] has joined #scheme 10:34:05 grep confirms it, fwiw 10:34:39 thiught so 10:35:45 hm, bringing sisc up to speed is probably a major task, i'll see if I am (or maybe "we are" :) up to it 10:35:55 *denisw* always wanted to work on a Scheme 10:36:04 what kind of features would be useful for you? 10:37:38 first of all, bug freeness :) 10:38:34 no usage of deprecated features would be nice, and working on android 10:38:55 the latter should be rather trivial as sisc does not generate bytecode 10:39:22 yeah... someone (Daemmerung?) got sisc working on android already 10:39:29 cool 10:39:37 ML archive should have it 10:39:45 other than that, not much is needed for my project 10:40:24 but other things like future r7rs compatibility etc would be nice to have 10:40:38 yeah definitely 10:41:04 simply having sisc maintained by someone - even if that someone is myself - would be valuable 10:41:10 yeh 10:41:21 I can give you commit access on that branch if you want... 10:41:32 assuming I can get github to cooperate 10:41:40 i only started using it like a month ago lol 10:41:44 that would be great 10:42:01 that requires me to get a github account though :) can do 10:42:48 as long as it's not sf i'm ok with any platform ;) 10:43:10 heheh 10:45:45 let me create an aacount quickly 10:52:31 amoe: username is denisw 10:54:38 thanks :) 10:54:50 cool, i added you as "collaborator" 10:55:10 hopefully that means you can push 10:55:31 the mail I got from github says so 10:55:55 *denisw* will clone the repo and look around after he has finally finished washing dishes 11:10:43 the android ndk allows also writing native apps, so one can also use embeddable schemes and scheme->c compilers on android 11:12:10 unfortunately java interop is much harder that way 11:13:45 yes it is :/ 11:16:42 thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.23.32] has joined #scheme 11:17:50 i even thought about using common lisp via abcl, but naturally cl doesn't have continuations 11:17:57 and cl-cont is a fragile hack 11:21:15 amoe, oh support for generic functions a'la CL defgeneric/defmethod would be awesome for my project 11:21:35 though i'm still hoping for r7rs WG2 for providing that 11:22:49 with records and generic functions, one could finally write portable efficient polymorphic code in Scheme (yay!) 11:23:08 or yet another object system ;) 11:23:58 'finally'? There as an R6RS tinyclos port, no? 11:24:41 note the "effecient" 11:25:11 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.23.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:27:39 SISC already has a CLOSish object system with generics 11:27:44 though it's not efficient 11:31:13 -!- woonie [~woonie@137.132.45.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:31:34 oh 11:31:55 i would have expected that sisc was pretty much straight-on extensionless r5rs 11:33:17 nope, it's medium size... has quite a few extensions 11:37:20 jimmyrcom [~fold@adsl-75-53-40-95.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 11:38:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:45:30 rff [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 11:51:03 -!- denisw [~denisw@dslb-188-103-180-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:51:07 denisw [~denisw@dslb-188-103-180-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 11:51:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 11:53:24 replore_ [~replore@PPPnf3988.kanagawa-ip.dti.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 11:58:54 -!- replore_ [~replore@PPPnf3988.kanagawa-ip.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:00:04 replore_ [~replore@PPPnf3988.kanagawa-ip.dti.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:01:13 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@2001:420:4:eb7c:226:2dff:fef4:42f1] has joined #scheme 12:01:17 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@2001:420:4:eb7c:226:2dff:fef4:42f1] has quit [Changing host] 12:01:17 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 12:02:03 -!- soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:03:15 djcb_ [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-klgornklhqrnohch] has joined #scheme 12:03:15 -!- djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-ivtaiycuajudrskk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:04:51 -!- replore_ [~replore@PPPnf3988.kanagawa-ip.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:05:47 Burlingk [~burlingk@softbank221067045171.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 12:06:00 amoe, sisc depends on ASM? this lessens my android hopes extremely 12:06:39 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 12:07:04 replore [~replore@g1-223-25-153-99.bmobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:07:23 at least the "dynclass" module does 12:12:23 -!- djcb_ [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-klgornklhqrnohch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:12:28 djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-bkrvfenwzzwgbifr] has joined #scheme 12:13:46 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-134-115.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 12:18:40 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-134-115.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Client Quit] 12:19:02 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-199-177.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 12:19:38 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:23:25 zoldar [~zoldar@ip-114-252.ima.pl] has joined #scheme 12:27:20 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:27:45 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:34:37 amoe: how do you run the tests? 12:34:51 denisw: "ant check" 12:35:16 output goes into some weird text file in the current directory, at least on my system 12:35:43 *amoe* wants to change that 12:35:49 yeah, for me too 12:36:00 amoe: this should just go to stdout 12:36:06 agreed 12:36:22 but I don't know much about ant to be honest 12:36:39 dfjklaaf [~paulh@245-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 12:37:29 I think the task names are pretty nonstandard 12:37:37 no "ant build" for instance 12:37:40 what would the standard one be? 12:37:46 I think it does have ant build... 12:37:55 oops no 12:38:03 that's "ant compile" 12:38:07 what would the standard ones be? 12:38:16 I rarely use ant 12:39:40 neither do I, but from the times I do I remember "ant build" to work 12:39:56 I'll google for best practices 12:44:18 amoe: http://wiki.apache.org/ant/TheElementsOfAntStyle 12:44:37 but neither "build" nor "compile" is listed, so the latter should be fine 12:46:32 maybe we should add a task to download the dependencies automatically if they are not in lib/, but this is low-priority 12:48:45 ah, nice find 13:00:37 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-2-133-215.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 13:07:13 amoe: weird, (let* ((x y) (y 1)) y) prints 1, but (let* ((x (begin y)) (y 1)) y) complains about "y" being undefined 13:07:55 In both cases, it's undefined. It just happens that your implementation optimizes out the x. 13:08:23 (let ((y 0)) (let* ((x y) (y 1)) y)) or (let ((y 0)) (let* ((x (begin y)) (y 1)) y)) would be defined. 13:08:28 pjb, I know it is, just wondering why sisc doesn't disallow both 13:09:09 optimizations... It sees that x is not used, so it removes it in the first case. But the begin forces the evaluation of y. 13:09:36 hm, makes sense 13:09:44 not pretty, but makes sense 13:13:22 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-153-35.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 13:13:28 There was an article about Optimizations (from the point of view of C compiler writers) written by an LLVM programmer which was quote illuminating a few months ago. 13:14:07 Here: http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know_21.html 13:14:43 s/quote/quite/ 13:18:27 interesting, thanks for the pointer 13:20:02 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-2-133-215.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:24:25 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:28:15 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 13:30:44 soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #scheme 13:35:20 -!- denisw [~denisw@dslb-188-103-180-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #scheme 13:36:46 denisw [~denisw@dslb-188-103-180-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 13:38:21 amoe, there is an existing #sisc channel ;) 13:38:32 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfd13a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:39:38 ah cool 13:39:47 *amoe* adds to config 13:45:11 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:49:26 -!- zoldar [~zoldar@ip-114-252.ima.pl] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:50:39 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #scheme 13:51:08 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 13:51:40 -!- djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-bkrvfenwzzwgbifr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:48 djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-jyhxtnungmwendjz] has joined #scheme 13:54:06 ada2358 [~ada2358@login.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 13:56:19 -!- djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-jyhxtnungmwendjz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:28 djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-mpbjhghwgdromyck] has joined #scheme 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#scheme 17:54:28 If quantum computing were to take over within the coming years, what would it mean for traditional programmers? 17:56:06 we won't be able to tell where our bugs are, but we'll have a pretty good idea of how fast they're moving 17:58:22 Would everything we've learned thus far, from traditional state machines, be useless? 17:59:21 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:00:49 http://eval.ironscheme.net/ <-- try IronScheme online :) 18:01:06 note: not in browser 18:03:10 you mean not in js :p 18:03:18 sandboxed? ;) 18:03:44 yes jonrafkind :) I realized I did not have a decent description :) 18:04:02 amoe: not my host, not my problem :) 18:04:15 fair enough! :) 18:04:17 looks like i broke it 18:04:23 (let loop () (loop)) 18:04:38 well I am paying for it, but if their security suck, it's their problem 18:04:58 still working for me jonrafkind :) 18:05:03 is there an evaluator per session? 18:05:09 i cant submit any more expressions 18:05:15 yes, 20 minute session 18:05:30 because you were bad, pleasnat side-effect :) 18:05:44 rudybot: (let loop () (loop)) 18:05:44 this is fun 18:05:44 jonrafkind: your sandbox is ready 18:05:54 jonrafkind: error: with-limit: out of time 18:06:16 yeah I need that still 18:06:39 but like I said, not my host, they will probably recycle the process if it runs wild 18:06:54 anyways, should be reset no, jonrafkind 18:07:01 s/no/now/ 18:07:31 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 18:07:56 my threading support is very limit, so this at least give me a reason to enhance it a bit :) 18:08:23 I get a friendly "oops" from open-output-file :) 18:08:57 well I would hope so! I did not enable any write permission 18:09:02 pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.249.78] has joined #scheme 18:09:19 sure... I like the error :) 18:09:21 amoe: you should be able to digg around the system though 18:10:09 ah, presumably it's not unix? 18:10:15 hmmm, I guess I should give that a proper message then, I think that is a catch all 18:10:25 nope, windows server or something 18:10:49 I could run it on Mono, but I am to lazy to figure out its webstack 18:11:36 *amoe* can't remember the paths to any nice windows files :) 18:11:40 amoe: you should not see a single CLR style exception, like you get in Clojure, all proper scheme errors :) 18:12:06 c:\windows\system32\drivers\etc\hosts maybe? 18:12:50 ooh cool 18:13:13 you could try adding some ../../../../file 18:13:26 jonrafkind: If you're going to make an infinite loop, at least do it the way cool kids do it: 18:13:28 i have no idea how secure the server is 18:13:35 rudybot: ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc)) 18:13:35 cky: your sandbox is ready 18:13:46 cky: error: with-limit: out of time 18:13:56 rudybot: ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) 18:14:01 cky: but I can cover that case at least :) 18:14:07 jonrafkind: error: with-limit: out of time 18:14:13 leppie: Oh, yes? 18:14:29 try it, the call/cc one 18:14:35 Okay. :-) 18:15:01 Lolz. 18:15:21 leppie, does ironscheme have a filesystem API? 18:15:27 amoe 18:15:30 yes 18:15:42 http://ironscheme.net/doc/library?(ironscheme+files) 18:15:59 so nice to have a website finally, should have done this long ago :) 18:16:15 503d :/ 18:16:39 amoe: ? 18:16:54 ignore, i'm dumb 18:18:02 that whole doc website is generated via reflection of libraries, havent bothered adding any more info :) 18:18:49 screw this, I am just going to write 'with-limit' in C# 18:18:53 it's cool 18:19:32 however you can't import stuff into the REPL afaics... since you can't define stuff, also 18:19:44 yes you can 18:19:44 that should be fun to add :) 18:19:46 try it 18:19:49 hmmm 18:20:03 you have a 20 minute session state 18:20:20 so you environment disappears after 20 minutes idle 18:20:20 across submitted queries? 18:20:24 yeah! 18:20:30 ah maybe i need to enable cookies 18:20:45 ahh, that might help, paranoid one :) 18:21:00 *amoe* enjoys his intentionally crippled browser :) 18:21:04 or wait, let me test something, I will tell you when to try 18:22:04 ok try now 18:22:48 HG` [~HG@p5DC055C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:23:05 amoe: does it work without cookies now? 18:23:06 yep working w/o cookies now :) 18:23:14 cool 18:23:54 in the 9 years I have done .NET I have never tried the cookieless sessionstate :) 18:24:36 guys, I know this is a noob question but how on earth do I run my scheme program? I've read up to ten "articles" online and none of that material works. Implementation: MIT-Scheme, Shell: bash 18:27:19 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:30:55 nevermind...a noob does noob mistakes :D I wrote "load: whatever.scm" instead of "--load whatever.scm"...now I feel stupid 18:35:09 amoe: the entire implementation of eval.ironscheme.net, http://paste.lisp.org/display/124534 18:40:09 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 18:41:27 nice work! 18:41:37 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has joined #scheme 18:41:59 is the persistent repl-like environment possible in raw R6RS? 18:42:17 is NEW-INTERACTION-ENVIRONMENT some magic? 18:42:41 + SESSION-SET! 18:43:18 that just calls the constructor is interaction-environment, rest of the unfamiliar calls are just straight into .NET 18:43:31 s/is/of/ 18:44:29 most of the ironscheme libraries are just thin wrappers around usefull .NET stuff, I just add as required 18:58:11 leppie: does psyntax provide interaction-environment? 18:58:36 yes, it basically a mutable environment 18:58:57 with some initial imports, in my case (import (ironscheme)) 18:59:26 cool... for some reason mosh doesn't expose interaction-environment 18:59:35 where do you export it in ironscheme? 18:59:58 I export it from the ironscheme library 19:00:03 ah cool 19:00:07 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:00:09 -!- ijp [~user@host86-174-97-241.range86-174.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:00:33 what is the default mosh library? 19:01:16 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD61AEB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:02:11 apparently (mosh interaction) is imported into the REPL by default. TIL 19:02:55 i guess that exports interaction-environment? 19:03:00 nope 19:03:10 I can probably get it by importing one of the freaky private psyntax libraries 19:03:20 that's true 19:03:45 yay 19:03:50 (psyntax system $all) for the win 19:04:27 *amoe* will bug to export it somewhere 19:04:37 weird, he does not export it at all, looking at the source 19:05:08 there's a few other psyntax things that are also not exposed anywhere 19:05:13 trace-define and such 19:05:34 you need extra support for that AFAIK 19:06:02 ah 19:06:26 IIRC, just something called 'trace-lambda' 19:07:27 -!- denisw is now known as denisw|away 19:07:42 lol, nice to see my source code in mosh :) 19:07:54 yep lol 19:08:02 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 19:08:42 everyone has to bootstrap somehow :) iirc, I used gambit's .pp file 19:08:55 it pretty much worked first time, and I was happy 19:09:21 took forever to run though, like 2-3 minutes, now it is like 10 seconds in total 19:10:04 jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 19:12:18 psyntax is freaky 19:12:34 i should read that beautiful code chapter one day 19:12:50 yes, after more than 4 years of using it, I still struggle to hack it 19:13:16 actually is there another paper that's just about the psyntax design? 19:13:51 nm, found... 19:14:19 not sure about the design, guess there is 19:17:03 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-199-177.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 19:22:30 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 19:29:45 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 19:36:01 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:40:45 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:41:03 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:41:18 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #scheme 19:42:23 _rvn [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 19:43:29 -!- rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:48:02 jonrafkind, cky: added with-limit now :) 19:50:17 ijp [~user@host86-180-111-131.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 19:57:20 -!- ijp [~user@host86-180-111-131.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:59:53 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-191-238-92.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02:05 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-145-11.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:13:06 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-142-4.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:14:07 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:15:12 masm [~masm@2.80.142.4] has joined #scheme 20:16:49 -!- denisw|away [~denisw@dslb-188-103-180-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:31:29 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 20:33:55 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC055C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 20:42:19 G_ [~G@41.51.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 20:42:31 ijp [~user@host86-180-111-131.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:44:43 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:47:40 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 20:48:46 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has joined #scheme 20:49:44 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.249.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:51:51 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-145-11.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:59:57 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 21:00:34 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:00:42 rff [~rff@ip72-207-241-136.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 21:01:18 kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-1-161-69.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 21:02:09 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-62-35.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:02:28 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 21:07:08 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has joined #scheme 21:08:32 -!- DrDuck [~duck@user-24-236-92-111.knology.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:09:52 taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD93C34.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:16:15 -!- Intensity [ssRaGK7CLB@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:16:53 i don't get the difference between applicative-order and call-by-value, as well as normal-order and call-by-name. 21:18:23 pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.249.78] has joined #scheme 21:19:06 taylanub: Imagine this function: (define (double x) (+ x x)) 21:19:20 taylanub: Then you call (double (some-big-fat-gian-function)). 21:19:24 *giant 21:19:49 taylanub: Under applicative-order, some-big-fat-giant-function is guaranteed to be called once only. 21:20:02 taylanub: Under normal-order, it will be called twice if your implementation doesn't optimise out the extra call. 21:20:10 sorry that's not what i meant 21:20:24 "the difference between applicative-order and call-by-value, as well as normal-order and call-by-name" as in the first pair and the latter pair 21:20:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy as seen here, both pairs are claimed to be slightly different 21:24:19 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:25:56 The terms "applicative-order" and "normal-order" should not be used. 21:26:10 "call-by-name" and "call-by-value" have well-defined meanings. 21:26:14 The former two do not. 21:27:47 stamourv: still, any idea what Wikipedia tries to say ? 21:28:11 The part about applicative order is mostly nonsensical. 21:28:20 "Unlike call-by-value, applicative order evaluation reduces terms within a function body as much as possible before the function is applied." 21:28:21 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-12.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:28:30 This is ridiculous. 21:28:55 Under no sensible evaluation strategy should `(lambda () omega)' not terminate. 21:31:05 that sentence implies that ? 21:31:24 -!- realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-153-35.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:32:04 Yes. 21:32:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:21 "as much as possible". How do you know when to stop? 21:33:09 when everything is a primitive ? 21:33:35 Omega reduces infinitely. 21:33:47 http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/gdp/publications/cbn_cbv_lambda.pdf 21:34:06 This has a better explanation of cbv and cbn than wikipedia. 21:34:51 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-145-11.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:35:09 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-32.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:36:50 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-12.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:36:54 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 21:37:34 why does omega reduce infinitely ? 21:38:27 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #scheme 21:39:32 Omega is `((lambda (f) (f f)) (lambda (f) (f f)))'. 21:39:40 Reduce it one step. 21:39:42 oh 21:40:13 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-150-132.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:41:24 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-32.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:41:24 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 21:43:12 Intensity [JL6vtkmbs7@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #scheme 21:44:19 in the example you gave, won't the symbol omega reduce to a lambda primitive ? 21:44:19 DrDuck [~duck@146.229.119.178] has joined #scheme 21:45:08 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@ZKMMDCCXXXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:45:17 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.192.112] has joined #scheme 21:46:06 taylanuc [~taylanub@p4FD95DBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:46:18 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD93C34.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:46:20 -!- taylanuc is now known as taylanub 21:46:24 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-150-132.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:46:24 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 21:46:36 What do you mean? 21:46:43 Omega reduces to Omega. 21:47:41 You take the body of the operand (the first `(f f)'), and you substitute the argument (the second `(lambda (f) (f f))') wherever there 21:47:45 's an `f'. 21:47:54 And you get Omega again. 21:48:54 But per scheme syntax/semantics, the symbol at that location will not be applied even if it evaluates to a procedure, or where am i wrong ? 21:50:20 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.229.246] has joined #scheme 21:50:41 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-12.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:50:44 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-12.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:50:50 There are not symbols anywhere. 21:51:09 I use ` and ' to delimit code. It's not quasiquote and quote. 21:51:15 s/not/no/ 21:51:44 My terminology is wrong. 21:53:28 Omega is an application of a value to a value, so it will proceed. 21:53:38 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.192.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:53:43 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 21:55:12 When you write `(lambda () omega)', are you using `omega' as a meta-syntactic variable, or variable? 21:56:10 It's meta-syntactic. 21:56:28 The term should be: `(lambda () ((lambda (f) (f f)) (lambda (f) (f f))))' 21:56:39 So you have Omega under lambda. 21:56:50 Omega on its own reduces infinitely. 21:57:07 But here, unless you call the function, Omega just sits there. 21:57:14 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:57:35 markskil` [~user@host86-136-236-16.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 21:57:49 But lambda is a special form, so isn't it an exception to evaluation rules anyway? 21:58:27 -!- soveran [~soveran@dan75-2-87-91-33-52.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:45 It's not so much an exception as much as evaluation under lambda is not in the rules. 21:59:19 -!- markskilbeck [~user@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:59:50 For nice explanations of all that, I recommend the excellent book "Semantics Engineering with PLT Redex". 22:00:21 It's a great resource for semantics in general. 22:05:47 I still don't understand how the Wikipedian sentence implies that `(lambda () omega)' should not terminate. 22:06:25 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:06:36 "Unlike call-by-value, applicative order evaluation reduces terms within a function body as much as possible before the function is applied." 22:07:18 It says that reduction happens in the body before application. 22:07:31 So without even applying the outer lambda, we can get infinite reduction. 22:10:21 I would rather think that with "before the function is applied" it refers to the evaluation of a function-call expression. 22:11:14 It just means before the beta rule is used, you reduce the expression under the lambda. 22:11:24 Which is what stamourv is referring to. 22:12:15 Right. 22:12:32 Anyway, I have to run. Try the book I mentioned, it's great. 22:12:37 I'll be back tomorrow. 22:12:40 Ok, thanks. 22:24:26 -!- DrDuck [~duck@146.229.119.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:25:41 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.249.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:26:41 DrDuck [~duck@146.229.119.178] has joined #scheme 22:35:02 -!- srid [u3297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ksxjxvdesakvcqsw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:38:30 metasyntax [~taylor@184.18.7.169] has joined #scheme 22:42:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.229.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:44:10 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 22:45:18 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.197.233] has joined #scheme 22:47:44 ampersandbox [~chatzilla@adsl-99-55-172-89.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:48:13 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:52:21 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-145-11.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 22:58:27 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:58:53 -!- DrDuck [~duck@146.229.119.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:00:33 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:01:48 DrDuck [~duck@146.229.119.178] has joined #scheme 23:03:12 snorble [~snorble@s83-191-238-92.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 23:08:23 -!- ampersandbox [~chatzilla@adsl-99-55-172-89.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.1/20110830092941]] 23:10:20 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD61AEB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:38 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 23:14:51 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 23:25:21 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.215.73] has joined #scheme 23:25:34 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.197.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:25:34 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 23:27:54 pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.249.78] has joined #scheme 23:28:41 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 23:34:14 srid [u3297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tscccbmheokcccli] has joined #scheme 23:34:14 -!- srid [u3297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tscccbmheokcccli] has quit [Changing host] 23:34:14 srid [u3297@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #scheme 23:34:14 -!- srid [u3297@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Changing host] 23:34:14 srid [u3297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tscccbmheokcccli] has joined #scheme 23:41:25 phao [phao@177.30.120.106] has joined #scheme 23:44:28 -!- phao [phao@177.30.120.106] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:45:33 phao [phao@177.30.120.106] has joined #scheme 23:45:36 -!- phao [phao@177.30.120.106] has quit [Client Quit] 23:49:12 I think one of the hardest concepts for Scheme newbies to grasp is that empty lists are always immutable. 23:49:42 Like, when dealing with Common Lisp, you at least have the option of teaching newbies that lists end with nil, and they can think of that as "special". 23:49:50 Whereas in Scheme, it's () and people think it's just like any other list. 23:50:30 (define nil '()) ; don't you need this for sicp anyway? 23:50:39 Probably. 23:50:46 Anyway, context: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7341612/mappend-cant-append-element-to-the-list-if-the-list-is-empty/7341648#7341648 23:50:46 http://tinyurl.com/3kc7q34 23:50:53 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:51:06 I was trying to explain to the poster why, even if (mlist? '()) => #t, all that means is that there are no conses that are immutable. 23:51:09 phao [phao@177.30.120.106] has joined #scheme 23:51:14 -!- phao [phao@177.30.120.106] has left #scheme 23:51:22 But since an empty list has no conses, there is nothing to modify. 23:52:10 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.215.73] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 23:52:27 -!- DrDuck [~duck@146.229.119.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:52:36 Hmm, that is an interesting case 23:53:57 I think that it's not pretty to distinguish types as mutable and immutable the way lisps do 23:55:15 Regardless of whether this distinction exists or not, I don't think Lisp has a concept of a mutable empty list, since empty list == nil. 23:57:15 In lisp, the empty list is usually unique 23:57:20 Hence "the" empty list 23:57:38 So it becomes an identity, just like #t is #t 23:57:46 I suppose that confuses people 23:59:46 Quite.