00:04:02 dostoyevsky: Just heard the news from you; what are the odds, you think, of Pixar-dom? 00:06:50 -!- ijp [~user@host86-162-111-128.range86-162.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: the GC got me] 00:15:47 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.240] has joined #scheme 00:16:14 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:57 soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:22:02 prototrout [~steve@ip-64-255-129-222.ideaone.net] has joined #scheme 00:29:05 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 00:32:38 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-150-109-116.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:33:04 wisey [~Steven@host86-150-109-116.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 00:38:25 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:38:37 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:53:57 woonie [~woonie@s120180.pc.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 01:05:52 dostoyevsky: What Scheme is that? 01:08:56 scottmaccal [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-93-142.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #scheme 01:11:33 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:11:50 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 01:14:04 kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-0-255-228.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 01:16:45 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-160-12.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:23:41 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:27:14 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:28:53 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:32:18 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-150-109-116.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:32:46 wisey [~Steven@host86-150-109-116.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 01:37:08 I've written a program like this: (define (a) (a)) (a) 01:37:27 interestingly, once a while GC is started 01:37:29 I wonder why 01:37:45 I don't see where any objects are created here 01:39:55 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: 2011] 01:43:27 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:49:56 whitequark: In many (most) systems, the GC will run at some non-deterministic time. You can't really know whether you should run the GC until you run the GC --- I think. 01:53:44 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-150-109-116.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:56:14 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #scheme 01:59:02 arcfide: well, GC is run for a reason -- in this particular implementation, it is simply run when there's no heap space 01:59:19 so something has occupied the space, but I don't quite understand what exactly 02:01:11 Slower implementations like Chibi never run their GC - they always walk them. 02:03:37 whitequark: What implementation is this? 02:04:44 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-150-65.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 02:08:57 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.249.46] has quit [Quit: Thanks, fellas] 02:14:44 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:15:37 -!- jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:16:17 arcfide: picobit 02:16:56 ah, I probably have an idea -- that may be stale environments left from function calls 02:23:39 woonie2 [~woonie@s120180.pc.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 02:24:29 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:32 -!- woonie [~woonie@s120180.pc.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:25:37 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:27:07 soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:27:40 -!- dRbiG [p@bofh.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:35:14 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #scheme 02:36:11 -!- scottmaccal [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-93-142.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.20/20110805211839]] 02:37:09 -!- confab [~confab@c-24-10-60-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:38:02 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:39:27 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:39:36 hoi 02:39:49 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:42:47 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:48 confab [~confab@c-24-10-60-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:43:15 -!- rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:48:40 dhaivat [~Dhaivat_P@14.97.193.38] has joined #scheme 02:51:57 incubot: Slime said to me, "Peter, this could be the start of a beautiful program." 02:52:01 peter_12: characters are missing intentionally. You most likely don't want them for a terminal application. 02:52:29 jcowan: Can you comment on the pronunciation of "trie"; viz. whether it's "tree" or "try"? I'm doing an informal survey. 02:52:54 Knuth says it's tree, IIRC, but I say try myself. 02:54:31 incubot: would you like to say anything to rudybot ? 02:54:34 eval (current-directory "/home/offby1") 02:54:42 *offby1* ponders 02:54:49 Thanks; now that you and Riastradh appear to disagree, both answers appear authoritative. 02:54:52 klutometis: I think rudybot has the same bug. 02:55:00 offby1: That hilarious, actually; which bug? 02:55:16 klutometis: apparently it chose the word "offby1" 02:55:23 which it really shouldn't have, since I didn't say that word 02:55:40 offby1: Right, exactly; though I did build a list of usernames and attempt to filter those out. Not sure why it didn't work. 02:56:04 I think (in the current version) I only log the text of the utterance, not the speaker etc 02:56:07 Let's ponder another chatter-algorithm, by the way; this one has the stale feel of mid-late aughts. 02:56:13 aw 02:56:36 when I was unemployed I was busy rigging things up so that the bot's logs would wind up in Amazon's SImpleDB. I got pretty far but never flipped the switch 02:56:45 Alas, I got a real job 02:57:22 klutometis: anyway you (or incubot) are my hero; I've gotten a _lot_ of yucks from watching people interact with rudybot 02:58:09 offby1: Are you post-________ now? (________ stands for some kind of Washington-based TODO-list website that I can't remember now.) 02:58:10 Hi everyone. I'm just starting scheme, and I quite like it, and this is a function a wrote: http://pastie.org/2425844, now, when this is given large difference between a and b, MIT/GNU scheme tells me "Maximum recursion depth reached", now, this really shouldn't happen with tail call recursion, right? 02:58:16 (did I get cut off?) 02:58:28 klutometis: yes -- I understood you perfectly :-) 02:58:28 dhaivat: No. 02:58:37 ________ == "Cozi" 02:58:46 klutometis: what do you mean? It shouldn't? Well, how can I fix it then? 02:58:47 Oh, yeah; that's right! Where did the winds blow you? 02:59:01 let us examine dhaivat's question. 02:59:02 dhaivat: Oh, sorry; you didn't get cut off. Let me take a look now. 02:59:09 klutometis: oh okay. 02:59:25 dhaivat: without even reading the paste: you're right: you shouldn't see that error if your code is tail-recursive 02:59:33 *offby1* too 02:59:37 parallel processing! 02:59:46 *shrug* 02:59:48 pretty clear 03:00:01 dhaivat: you have not yet grokked the tail-call nature yet, grasshopper 03:00:08 offby1: Oh, I see. 03:00:13 also, am I the only one who hates paste sites? 03:00:15 offby1: so, that isn't a proper tail call? 03:00:18 nope 03:00:37 what happens to the value that is returned from the inner call to sigme? 03:00:41 sigma 03:00:59 offby1: it gets pushed onto the addition that it still has to do 03:01:12 yep. 03:01:16 offby1: oh okay, so, that keeps getting pushed on the stack 03:01:19 yep. 03:01:33 if it were tail call, it'd be the return value of the _enclosing_ call to sigma. 03:01:39 offby1: is there any way I can transform this code into proper tail call code? I want it to be recursive, not iterative. 03:02:00 er, it _is_ recursive 03:02:25 but: sure, you can make this recursive-but-will-never-blow-out-the-stack. 03:02:35 There's a sort of trick to it, which I'm sure your instructor has already covered. 03:03:55 dhaivat: I must chastise you for not including any unit tests. 03:04:04 offby1: for this size of code?! 03:04:09 yup. 03:04:19 offby1: I was running on the REPL... 03:04:25 they should be pretty easy, then, shouldn't they? :-) 03:04:34 offby1: yeah, I just didn't paste them. 03:04:59 offby1: I'm using SICP if that tells you anything 03:05:51 it tells me that your instructor has indeed mentioned the trick. 03:06:04 query klutometis 03:06:37 klutometis: I think that Steve will have tried very hard to make Apple another Pixar, which could be run without him... he also had many years of time for planning for his absence... But I am not sure whether all this will be enough... and, yet, Pixar is fascinating as it ever was 03:07:06 I like Pixar so much that I am willing to set aside my hatred for Disney to watch their movies. 03:08:43 offby1: I'm still on the second section. Can you tell me how to do it, or set me in the right direction? 03:09:11 I can paste some code which is probably correct, but explaining it might be beyond me 03:09:12 foof: The floating-point example is from the scheme I am working on... FP is yet non-R5RS... 03:09:19 I know I'm not supposed to just give the answers, but ... 03:10:54 offby1: can you just paste the code? I'll do my best to understand it. 03:11:02 http://pastie.org/2425889 03:11:38 offby1: Ah, I see. So, its sort of like an iterator. 03:11:49 I'm not certain that meets the example's requirements, but I' 85% sure it does 03:12:46 offby1: do you have any idea how to copy and paste into MIT/GNU scheme? 03:12:51 none 03:13:03 well, I assume it uses the X clipboard like any other 20-year-old app 03:13:12 try middle-click 03:13:16 dhaivat: What OS are you running on? 03:13:17 or shift-insert 03:13:49 what's the deal with the parens offby1? 03:14:22 er? 03:14:40 what parens? Where? Who _says_ there are parens? I want their names. 03:14:49 haha 03:14:52 the indented ones 03:15:05 I'm just preserving 'em as I was given 'em 03:15:08 jcowan: windoze 03:15:35 hmm, okay 03:15:52 dhaivat: if you're using Edwin, I'd expect C-y to work 03:19:08 offby1: okay, let me check. 03:19:21 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-150-65.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:20:07 offby1: The code works perfectly, and thanks for the education. 03:20:19 wish I could have been more pedagogical :) 03:26:11 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbed512.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:29:16 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 03:35:26 EM03 [~dfsdfdsf@unaffiliated/em03] has joined #scheme 03:35:37 what is the most common way people build web apps in scheme? 03:35:39 the racket stuff? 03:36:07 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-162-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:36:15 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-162-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:37:02 I guess much doesn't change that quick hehe 03:38:35 well, given that only six people on Planet Earth build web apps in scheme ... :-( 03:38:59 srsly, I get the impression that Racket is up to the task. But I've never done more than just play with it 03:39:07 same 03:39:12 i use PHP and Ruby mostly 03:39:40 would be interesting to see something large done in racket 03:39:44 I suspect that Ruby has lots more library stuff available. 03:39:49 same for PHP, in fact. 03:40:03 yea 03:40:09 alas, Racket is still very much a weirdo minority thing. 03:40:11 right now all my work is pretty much just Drupal stuff 03:40:25 Drupal pays right now hehe 03:43:07 yep 03:43:23 offby1: There are more than 6 web application frameworks for Scheme, let alone people. 03:43:47 there is awful for chicken scheme 03:43:52 probably the best your gonna get right now 03:44:07 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 03:44:36 EM03: There are several "large web things" implemented with Racket. 03:44:52 -!- woonie2 [~woonie@s120180.pc.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:45:13 maybe i just didn't see them hehe 03:45:48 EM03: See the list. See also news.ycombinator.org . 03:46:44 There's HOP for Bigloo, Kahua (continuation-based) for Gauche, I think separate things for Kawa and SISC, my personal site runs on my own webserver, ... 03:47:20 foof: I was using a beloved rhetorical device called "exaggerating". 03:47:39 I suspect Hop is moribund. 03:48:25 http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#implementations is frighteningly long. 03:48:57 HOP is awesome. 03:49:50 Armpit Scheme, what a horrible name. 03:51:02 I just heard this for the first time today: "There's a Paul Graham quote somewhere about Lisp being two languages, one for writing code fast, and one for writing fast code." http://www.fatvat.co.uk/2009/08/clojure-transients.html 03:51:20 Dead/unsupported implementations should be moved to a separate list. 03:51:54 Is that the case? I'd like to concur, but I'm somewhat naive when it comes to optimizing Scheme (I've never yet had to, frankly; or punted when I did). 03:52:00 Maybe. But Gambit was dead for a looooong time. 03:53:31 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:53:33 Yes, and if any other implementations are revived they can move to the main list. 03:54:23 *offby1* thinks about Miracle Max 03:54:27 "Mostly Dead" 03:54:59 foof: not really usable though 03:54:59 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-169-82-70.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:59:45 offby1: in your code that you just gave me, you could not have not mentioned a and b again, since they are defined in the outer sigma function... 04:01:34 I was just thinking that 04:01:55 well, a changes; but f and b don't. 04:02:13 offby1: yeah, that's true. 04:03:34 http://pastie.org/2425889 is now a bit simpler 04:08:31 woonie [~woonie@s120180.pc.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 04:10:01 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:20:36 EM03: HOP is not usable? 04:26:48 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has 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[~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:58 -!- phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:42:06 phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has joined #scheme 14:42:37 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@bd21c0a0.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:43:14 rudybot: eval ...+ 14:43:14 leppie: error: make-evaluator: bad language spec: '|#module| 14:43:40 is that valid in Racket code, or just used for the docs? 14:43:46 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:44:18 -!- pandeiro_ [~pandeiro@189.33.192.160] has quit [Client Quit] 14:44:58 pandeiro [~pandeiro@bd21c0a0.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 14:45:14 -!- phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has quit [Client Quit] 14:45:23 phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has joined #scheme 14:45:45 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 14:45:55 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed 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the connection] 15:15:36 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #scheme 15:15:58 -!- Burlingk [~burlingk@softbank221067045171.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:16:37 -!- scottmaccal [~scottmacc@firewall.portland.lib.me.us] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.20/20110805211839]] 15:18:11 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 15:18:20 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-116.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:20:57 leppie: that's a valid identifier, but it's not usually bound, and it's used as punctution in the docs, not as a name 15:21:08 rudybot: eval (define ...+ 3) 15:21:10 samth: your typed/racket sandbox is ready 15:21:11 samth: Done. 15:21:22 rudybot: eval ...+ 15:21:22 samth: ; Value: 3 15:21:38 mmm, I kinda expected it to be like ... but one or more :) 15:23:23 whitequark: You got the port working? That's great! 15:26:57 leppie: that is what it means in the docs 15:27:29 samth: it could be a nice extension to syntax-case/syntax-rules though 15:27:59 leppie: your wish was ryanc's command in the past: http://docs.racket-lang.org/syntax/stxparse-patterns.html?q=...+#%28form._%28%28lib._syntax/parse..rkt%29._......+%29%29 15:27:59 http://tinyurl.com/3eby5xy 15:28:47 cool :) 15:38:31 stamourv: yeah 15:38:48 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-188-149.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has left #scheme 15:39:36 stamourv: have you read my letter? I've written some details there 15:39:59 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-188-149.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 15:40:08 oh yes, there's also one thing I've found out this morning 15:40:45 whitequark: The one you sent on tuesday? I replied yesterday. 15:41:22 stamourv: looks like my webmail ate the last one 15:42:46 Oh, I'll resend it, then. 15:42:47 aha, it saved a draft, so I'll just send it now 15:42:55 stamourv: not yours, but mine 15:43:08 the reply to the one you've wrote yesterday 15:43:16 okay, sent it 15:43:30 the thing I've found recently is the endianness 15:43:44 Oops, too late, I just resent mine. 15:43:55 What do you mean the endianness? 15:44:26 objects in picobit are divided into four fields 15:44:53 you are interpreting them as distinct bytes, but they often (i.e. in a cons) are paired to addresses 15:45:38 if you'd store them in a reverse (compared to the current) order, they would be easily extractable with 32-bit instructions 15:45:49 like (o & 0x1fff0000) >> 16 15:46:00 as ARMs are little-endian 15:46:35 the above C code is two or three C instructions, and it may even be inlined without increasing code size 15:47:32 currently, through, some shuffling is required (((o & 1f000000) >> 24) | (o & 0xff0000) >> 8)), and this is much less efficient 15:48:06 *assembler instructions, of course 15:48:43 it's not a problem to fix the RAM objects, but ROM ones are generated by compiler 15:51:31 stamourv: by the way, what is your timezone? Mine is GMT+4, and it looks like you are on the other side of planet 15:53:31 scottmaccal [~scottmacc@firewall.portland.lib.me.us] has joined #scheme 15:54:41 whitequark: I thought ARMs could be any endianness you wanted. 15:55:27 As for shuffling the byte order, you'd probably just have to redefine the accessors for ARM. 15:55:55 As for my timezone, I'm in Boston, so that's GMT-4. 15:56:37 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 15:56:48 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:11 -!- phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:11:06 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:24:20 pearle [~pearle@142.162.153.224] has joined #scheme 16:39:35 -!- pearle [~pearle@142.162.153.224] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:41:02 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 17:01:32 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:09:59 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:37 stamourv: that's not true for low-end Cortex-M3's 17:11:26 the core can actually switch its endianness, but in every M3 CPU I've seen it was hardwired to little-endian 17:11:52 i.e. an IP core has such an input, but it is connected statically by the chip manufacturer. 17:12:53 -!- mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:13:26 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:17:08 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:18:42 finnrobi [~robb@xvm-20-190.ghst.net] has joined #scheme 17:34:55 stamourv: what's a constant folder? 17:34:55 -!- preflex_ [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:35:11 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 17:40:26 soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:41:24 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-116.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:41:59 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:17 foof: i do not believe so 17:46:29 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #scheme 17:46:51 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:48:57 HG` [~HG@p579F7107.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:50:08 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 17:52:44 wisey [~Steven@host86-150-109-116.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:53:54 whitequark: Re endianness: I see. 17:54:06 -!- dhaivat [~Dhaivat_P@14.97.193.38] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:54:34 whitequark: Re constant folders: Constant folding is a compiler optimization that replaces expressions that have constant values with the value, computed at compile time. 17:55:00 So, for example, instead of compiling the expression `(+ 2 2)', the constant `4' would be compiled. 17:56:28 The constant folder is the meta-language (in this case Racket) function that's associated with the given primitive (here Picobit's `+') to do constant folding (here Racket's `+'). 18:01:13 masm [~masm@bl15-132-107.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 18:04:01 stamourv: I've replied 18:07:30 DrTeggy [~drteggy@HSI-KBW-078-042-118-121.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #scheme 18:07:37 whitequark: Reading. 18:21:35 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 18:31:34 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:12 -!- DrTeggy [~drteggy@HSI-KBW-078-042-118-121.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Going, going, gone...] 18:40:55 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-116.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:45:37 whitequark: Cloning your repo and running `make' fails. 18:45:45 Kconfig complains about a missing .config file. 18:46:38 Running `make oldconfig' works, though. 18:47:03 I would make workstation and arbitrary bignums the defaults, though. 18:57:06 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-155-195-89.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:58:02 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 18:58:17 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-150-109-116.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:58:55 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-169-82-70.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:00:34 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:00:56 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:01:06 stamourv: yeah, that's the intended behavior -- it does not know what configuration do you want 19:01:19 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:01:23 I'll add some defaults 19:04:17 It is also expected that the user will want to run `make nconfig' or `make config' (if there are no ncurses). I should write that in README or in the error message 19:07:59 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 19:08:49 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@d135-185.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:01 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:24 ASau [~user@93-80-104-193.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 19:28:22 -!- copumpkin is now known as TraderJoe 19:33:13 -!- scottmaccal [~scottmacc@firewall.portland.lib.me.us] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.20/20110805211839]] 19:35:07 -!- TraderJoe is now known as copumpkin 19:38:47 weirdo [~sthalik@d135-185.icpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 19:38:53 soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:45:05 jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 19:45:37 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #scheme 19:52:24 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 20:00:23 -!- srid [u3297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-smipqirosijhjrwx] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:29 hmm, I don't quite understand how (define list (lambda lst lst)) works 20:00:58 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:00:59 SICP only mentions special form `lambda' with a list as second parameter 20:01:19 If the second parameter is an identifier, that identifier is bound to a list of all the actual parameters. 20:01:23 cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:01:38 jcowan: thanks 20:02:39 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-116.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:02:51 is that equivalent to (define (list . lst) lst) ? 20:03:25 whitequark, yes 20:04:19 whitequark: In general, lambda formals can be an ordinary or dotted list of identifiers; a single identifier is a degenerate case of a dotted list. 20:06:16 srid [~srid@remote.activestate.com] has joined #scheme 20:06:16 -!- srid [~srid@remote.activestate.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:06:16 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #scheme 20:06:31 whitequark: Explaining that in the error message would be nice. But I still think that a default config would be a good idea. 20:07:18 jcowan: My name is misspelled on the Scheme implementors page. It's spelled `St-Amour'. 20:07:32 stamourv: I've added a default config 20:07:57 Good. 20:10:39 stamourv: sorry about that; fixed. 20:10:44 pothos_ [~pothos@111-240-171-221.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 20:11:14 jcowan: No problem, that's an easy mistake to make. 20:11:39 At some point, I may just give up, shame my ancestors, and switch to the english spelling... 20:12:15 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-176-240.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:13:07 -!- pothos_ is now known as pothos 20:13:39 The proper spelling of my surname is Mac Éothain, but .... 20:13:50 er, Mac Éoghain 20:14:39 How do you get from that to Cowan? 20:16:51 The latter part is pronounced Owen, more or less, and the Ma part of the Mac fell off, leaving Coen, as my grandfather spelled it. In my father's generation, however, the spelling was changed again to Cowan and the pronouncation (as in cow, not as in co.) followed. 20:16:51 Lose the `Ma'. 20:18:00 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:18:12 I see. 20:18:54 jcowan: so Cowan is pronounced like cow-en? 20:19:33 jcowan: hmm, is the dotted list as a lambda formal parameter specification a part of the special form? it does not seem to evaluate to anything by itself 20:20:04 mario-goulart: Yes 20:20:07 whitequark: Just so 20:21:05 jcowan: interesting. I thought it was co-wen. 20:21:24 Most people do when they first run into it. 20:21:42 Especially here in New York where Cowan is often a respelling of Cohen. 20:23:21 Similar things happen to the name Mac an Airchinnigh, which is McInerny normally, but also shows up as Kinner and Nerney. 20:24:26 jcowan: I've tried these supposedly equivalent statements: ((lambda (x y) (* x y)) 2 3 4) ((lambda (x . y) (* x (car y))) 2 3 4) ((lambda (. z) (* (car z) (cadr z))) 2 3 4) ((lambda z (* (car z) (cadr z))) 2 3 4). The first two and the last work, but third one does not 20:25:00 stamourv: by the way, I've replied to the letter 20:25:22 "(. z)" is not well formed list structure 20:25:41 whitequark: I'm replying. 20:26:29 ((lambda (x y) (* x y)) 2 3 4) is undefined Scheme, because the lambda expects exactly two arguments but receives three. Some Schemes will report an error rather than silently discarding the third argument. 20:26:41 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7107.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 20:27:17 jcowan: yeah, I see: '(. z) fails too, whether '(a . b) works. Can you explain a rationale behind this behavior? 20:28:07 (. z) would mean a pair whose cdr is z and whose car is missing. That's not a valid S-expression. 20:28:45 jcowan: (number of arguments) Ruby has two methods for creating lambdas: `lambda' and `proc'. The former checks argument count, the latter ignores extraneous arguments 20:29:15 jcowan: So (a . b) is a pair definition? Then, why can't I use it directly? 20:30:51 What do you mean by "use it directly"? 20:31:17 whitequark: Dotted notation can be compared better to Ruby's "splat" operator 20:32:26 sjamaan: Yeah, when it appears as a part of a formal parameter, that's called a `rest parameter' too, as in Scheme 20:32:45 right 20:32:46 jcowan: why (define a (cons 1 2)) isn't synonymous to (define a (1 . 2)) ? 20:34:20 Because lists in Scheme are not self-quoting: you need to say (define a '(1 . 2)) 20:35:00 The only times a dotted list can appear unquoted in Scheme code are as lambda formals or in a definition (which are really two variants of the same thing). 20:36:12 jcowan: but, for example, a function call (f 1) can be written this way: (f . (1 . '())). I think it should lead to the same cons structure, but it fails to parse. Is that an artifical limitation? 20:38:20 sjamaan: It's quite funny to realize that almost no one notice how Ruby is similar to Lisp/Scheme in a whole lot of aspects -- I've seen somewhere a graph which had Pascal and Python, but not Lisp... Even more funnier given that a week ago I had no idea, too. 20:38:45 I think it's explicitly taken a few things from/was inspired by Scheme 20:38:48 Lists can always be expanded into dotted notation, that's true. But "dotted list" (or "improper list") refers to a list whose last cdr is not (), and those are only used in Scheme in the given contexts. Like proper lists, they are not self-evaluating. 20:39:20 Probably the Scheme elements in Ruby come indirectly through Smalltalk. 20:40:20 jcowan: It has call/cc 20:40:26 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-188-149.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:41:25 Matz said that Ruby has some Lisp heritage... But Smalltalk also has Lisp heritage... But not call/cc IIRC 20:41:41 True. 20:41:43 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 20:42:05 whitequark: (f 1) is not equivalent to (f . (1 . '())), but to (f . (1 . ())) 20:42:43 jcowan: so that's why it did not worked 20:42:52 *did not work 20:43:53 Right. 20:44:12 'x = (quote x) 20:44:47 (f . (1 . '()) is the same as (f 1 quote ()), which is nonsense. 20:45:45 I've probably mistaken empty list to a nil list (which, according to SICP, is the '()) 20:47:39 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:49 stamourv: I'll fix printing soon; the ifdefs were not replaced to proper ones in arch/host/primitives.c 20:52:17 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:53:22 stamourv: done 20:53:55 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #scheme 20:56:56 -!- aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 20:58:05 The expression '(), which means (quote ()), evaluates to (). 20:58:20 Just as the expression '(foo bar) evaluates to (foo bar). 21:02:02 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-132-107.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:03:14 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:03:59 jcowan: that's not necessarily nonsense 21:04:26 rudybot: eval (let ([f values] [quote 7]) (f . (1 . '()))) 21:04:27 samth: error: eval:1:39: #%app: missing procedure expression; probably originally (), which is an illegal empty application in: (#%app) 21:04:55 rudybot: eval (let ([f values] [quote 7] [#%app list]) (f . (1 . '()))) 21:04:55 samth: error: eval:1:41: compile: bad syntax; function application is not allowed, because no #%app syntax transformer is bound in: (f 1 quote ()) 21:05:05 rudybot: eval (let ((f values) (quote 7) (x 3)) (f . (1 . 'x))) 21:05:06 Riastradh: your sandbox is ready 21:05:06 Riastradh: ; Value: 1 21:05:07 Riastradh: ; Value#2: 7 21:05:08 Riastradh: ; Value#3: 3 21:05:46 rudybot: eval (let ([f values] [quote 7]) (define-syntax-rule (#%app . args) (list . args)) (f . (1 . '()))) 21:05:54 -!- rudybot [~luser@ec2-204-236-167-175.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:06 lol. 21:06:08 sorry, rudybot/offby1 21:06:29 they've killed rudybot, bastards! 21:07:38 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #scheme 21:08:04 jcowan: ah yes, I see now. (eval '(foo bar)) is the same as (foo bar). "Code is data" approach may be confusing sometimes... 21:10:03 whitequark: Thanks. All the tests pass now. 21:10:51 stamourv: great, it means I didn't break anything! 21:11:35 whitequark: I'm looking at your commits. I'm not sure I like the reformatting in 10c1f26177bd. It looks like some lines exceed 80 characters, and overall, a lot less code fits on a screen. 21:11:49 whitequark: Well, nothing that was covered by the tests, at least. 21:12:50 whitequark: Yes\ 21:13:26 I'm not religious about brace styles, but I like to see large portions of the code at once. I sometimes edit code on my OLPC XO, which has a 7" screen, so screen real estate is precious. 21:14:44 samth: I don't think you can twist the empty combination into being valid Scheme, given that f is not a syntax keyword. 21:15:30 well, if i hadn't broken rudybot, i would have had something that worked 21:16:55 stamourv: I often work on a 11" netbook, too (I also have myopia of ~-3.5D, so the fonts are not very small either). I think that once all the refactoring will be done, I'll make a final pass manually and fix all style glitches 21:17:23 The code is now IMO much more readable than it was before 21:18:24 maybe the brace insertion was a bit exaggerated, yes 21:18:39 Brace insertion is fine, it avoids mistakes down the road. 21:19:08 Speak not of readability when Riastradh is in the room, for his "readable C" is everyone else's "unreadable C". 21:19:17 But having opening braces on their own line makes for a lot of useless lines. 21:19:32 And 8 character tabs make it hard to stay within 80 characters. 21:20:43 stamourv: the places exceeding 80 characters due to indentation should really be refactored 21:20:55 in most places it is possible 21:21:25 Perhaps. Anyway, that's a minor issue, and way off topic for this channel anyway ;). 21:22:08 Well, we're talking about Scheme anyway, through in quite a weird way... 21:22:45 srid_ [u3297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jwdocnhlcqdftvsu] has joined #scheme 21:22:45 -!- srid_ [u3297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jwdocnhlcqdftvsu] has quit [Changing host] 21:22:45 srid_ [u3297@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #scheme 21:22:45 -!- srid_ [u3297@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Changing host] 21:22:45 srid_ [u3297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jwdocnhlcqdftvsu] has joined #scheme 21:24:17 Not true, jcowan. For example, the BSD style, which is very different from what I think you had in mind as `readable' to me, can be perfectly readable; it's just a pain to edit because C-M-d &c. don't work to navigate the structure. 21:26:18 You once told me that C arithmetic expressions had to be fully parenthesized to be readable. 21:26:28 A sentiment, as I believe, unique to yourself. 21:27:22 jcowan: "a lisp syndrome" ? 21:28:21 Nontrivial arithmetic relying on much operator precedence is hard to read. 21:28:45 frhodes_ [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 21:28:52 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:29:18 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:30:24 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:35:17 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:11 -!- xissburg [~xissburg@187.50.13.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:23 soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:40:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-176.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:44 Is there are generally accepted, shorter notation for ``(lambda (foo) (code))''? Or is it rather that other commands, such as define have shortcuts in combination with lambda... E.g. in Smalltalk one can define a Block like this: ``[:foo| code]'', so their lambda equivalent is quite cheap to type.. 21:47:49 Some implementations, like Racket, accept the unicode character lambda instead of `lambda'. 21:48:05 dostoyevsky: No, there isn't, except for the extended form of define that has an implicit lambda. 21:48:17 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:54:04 stamourv: I read that one could press Symbol-l on Symbolics keyboards for the lambda key... :) 21:54:47 dostoyevsky: DrRacket provides something similar, but I forget the combination. 21:55:05 dostoyevsky: in DrRacket it's Ctrl-\ 21:55:18 Also, eli's got a really nifty emacs input method for characters like this. 21:55:30 eli: When are you releasing it? 21:55:31 or something else if you like shiny rounded corners on your consumer appliances 21:56:04 Perhaps when WG2 standardizes SRFI 1 we'll introduce  as a synonym for iota. 21:57:39 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:59:12 jcowan: While you're at it, ensure that you allow  as a synonym for ->,  for =>, and 21:59:23 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@bd21c0a0.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: Thanks, fellas] 21:59:35 jcowan: and  for ... 21:59:36 :-D 21:59:47 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:00 Perhaps a tad premature for standardization. Lobby to get them included in implementations. 22:00:09 ;-) 22:00:29 The biggest problem with Unicode is the lack of truly usable input methods for symbols. 22:00:45 s/Unicode/the use of non-ASCII characters in programming languages 22:00:56 jcowan: That doesn't seem to be a problem for keyboards with compose keys. :-P 22:01:03 Even Fortress has to have an ASCII-only mode to make it typeable. 22:01:08 :-O 22:02:22 Compose keys have their limits too, though they help. What sequence would you use for (U+2230, VOLUME INTEGRAL)? 22:02:47 Uh.... 22:08:55 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-139-113.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:09:13 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-139-113.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:10:41 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-127.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:10:55 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-127.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:30:53 soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:31:35 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:35 -!- frhodes_ [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:35:28 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:36:43 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:40:23 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #scheme 22:42:30 frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 22:42:30 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:42:50 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:51 frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-84-172.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 22:43:40 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-155-195-89.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:51:47 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 22:54:23 wisey [~Steven@host86-150-109-116.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 23:00:23 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #scheme 23:10:52 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 23:11:16 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 23:11:25 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 23:14:37 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: quitting] 23:14:51 -!- srid_ is now known as srid 23:15:20 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 23:24:14 scottmaccal [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-64-159.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #scheme 23:29:22 -!- scottmaccal [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-64-159.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.20/20110805211839]] 23:31:48 scottmaccal [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-64-159.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #scheme 23:33:35 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:36:01 hmmmm... I've switched my eval in C from symbol_compare to a switch statement with constants... But my eval is still as slow as before... 23:37:06 scottmaccal_ [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-86-89.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #scheme 23:37:45 Profile your code. Where you think it's slow is almost never where it actually is slow. 23:37:52 (gprof is your friend) 23:38:14 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:38:53 You're right.. I haven'T really used gprof in years... 23:39:01 -!- scottmaccal [~scottmacc@pool-71-173-64-159.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:39:16 -!- scottmaccal_ is now known as scottmaccal 23:41:10 Wasn't there something cooler than gprof recently? 23:41:31 I am on OS-X anyway... Maybe I should use something from xcode... 23:41:59 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@c-71-192-163-167.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 23:42:45 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 23:43:09 dostoyevsky: valgrind? 23:44:06 stamourv: https://github.com/elibarzilay/eliemacs/blob/master/extras/special-chars.el 23:44:51 dostoyevsky: I didn't follow the discussion, but if you're on Emacs and want a convenient way to insert `' and a bunch of other unicode characters, then see that hack. 23:45:42 eli: Ah... ok, will have a look. thanks 23:48:11 Shark.app is nice on OS-X... 23:48:21 (from XCode)