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quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:00:46 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 09:11:33 I had my first encounter with a Rails snob tonight at a Startup Weekend; "I only feel comfortable working with someone who is serious about Rails," was said in non-jest. 09:11:49 hehe 09:11:52 suckers 09:12:04 The startup world is a weird one, isn't it? 09:12:38 I love Scheme just as much as the other guy, but one-trick ponies are kind of irritating; he won't even tolerate me responding to his AJAX requests over Spiffy. 09:16:38 see if he'll tolerate your fist in his face 09:18:07 kilimanjaro: Yeah, he looks like a pasty fellow; commented on my knuckle calluses, too. 09:29:39 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-32.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:30:11 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:34:47 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-32.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 09:46:19 -!- Pepe_ 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[~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 18:44:40 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 18:55:39 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-32.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:57:39 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-32.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:01:39 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:07:15 Is it just, me or is this propaganda hilarious? "If you persist in bringing old habits from other languages to your Rails development, and trying to use patterns you learned elsewhere, you may have a less happy experience." 19:07:59 I can't even imagine what the Scheme-analog would be: "Feel free to bring in old habits from other languages: Scheme is the Borg, and can assimilate all." 19:09:43 klutometis: maybe the ad was about C programmers coming to the "ruby world". and by old habits he may be refering to ill coded C 19:09:46 afaict, that's mostly to address the tendency of newcomers to use for/while loops to iterate over enumerable structures, rather than the iterators. 19:09:57 and similar "habits" 19:11:27 iow, to prevent them "writing $old_lang in Ruby" 19:11:55 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-150-65.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:12:41 all the flies are moving to ruby now, as they were on .net or java before. 19:14:37 an analog might be someone from CL coding up a (LOOP ...) syntax, or simply begrudging its absence in Scheme 19:16:46 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-109-44.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 19:16:59 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-1.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:17:13 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-1.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:17:46 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-1.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:02 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-1.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:07 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-32.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:19:35 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-32.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:21:11 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-1.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:21:12 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-1.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:21:34 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:27:04 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:57 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has joined #scheme 19:28:42 ime, most languages have something like that; something from another language/paradigm that irks them no end. 19:29:26 iteration, mutability, pointers, memory management 19:30:38 klutometis: That's the kind of propaganda that is often mumbled wrt any kind of functional programming. Being on the side of getting more "mass-production template programmers", it might still be a big deal in the ruby.* world. 19:31:01 That, combined with a natural arrogant aura. 19:32:07 *penryu* preferred Ruby _off_ Rails 19:34:51 considering the rails community is populated primarily with those who were previously or would otherwise be part of the PHP/JSP/ASP/etc crowds, they inherit all related arrogance 19:36:26 toast` [~toast`@c-76-104-189-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:37:16 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:37:46 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-1.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-1.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:41:44 eli: That makes sense; the target audience was a little mysterious to me. 19:46:31 klutometis: why are you even hanging around them? 19:47:05 penryu: The respective arrogance reminds me of that classic Onion T-shirt: "The Sports Team From My Area Is Superior To The Sports Team From Your Area." 19:47:36 It puts me in an existential frame of mind that people violently care about such trivia; maybe that describes most religious wars, though. 19:48:23 in that they're proposing an empirical superiority without any intention of arguing empirical data? 19:48:24 penryu: I'm doing some kind of startup weekend, where we have 52 hours to come up with a MVP based on pitches; I'm doing the AJAX-server in Scheme, despite the howling protestations from the Rails guru. 19:49:14 penryu: Exactly; but "a priori superiority" is probably more appropriate, since they defend their respective pet despite empirical data to the contrary. 19:49:27 ah. 19:50:21 fwiw, that big about "a less happy experience" sounds more like a paraphrased version of dozens of usenet posts I've read in half a dozen comp.lang.* groups. 19:50:28 that *bit 19:51:07 frequently they don't understand the empirical data you provide to the contrary, so retreat to their bastion of language-ism 19:51:37 ... being former PHP programmers. 19:53:13 klutometis: I'd use "The sports team from your area is superior to the sports team from my area, and I still don't care." 19:53:43 klutometis: is everyone else there using ruby? 19:54:12 -!- rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:56:11 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-76-104-189-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 19:57:52 or is he one of those "Ruby _is_ functional! A schemer above all should realize that Ruby's combination of functional features and uber-notorious web frontend makes it the OBVIOUS choice for an ajax server!" types? 19:58:06 s/frontend/framework/ 19:58:23 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 19:58:41 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:58:48 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:59:04 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:00:31 cuz the confusion between being a descendant and being heir apparent is usually entertaining to watch. 20:00:34 -!- amoe_ [~amoe@cpc3-brig16-2-0-cust858.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:02:44 amoe [~amoe@cpc3-brig16-2-0-cust858.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 20:06:39 rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 20:14:27 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 20:15:49 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:16:45 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:16 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159933.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 20:19:21 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.180.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:28:01 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-1.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:28:13 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-1.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:30:47 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 20:31:32 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has joined #scheme 20:45:31 -!- rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:55:53 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 20:56:07 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:52 rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 21:01:07 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:07:42 -!- leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:11:11 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 21:11:41 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #scheme 21:16:41 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-150-65.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:23:01 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:26:28 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-150-65.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:27:15 srid [u3297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-smipqirosijhjrwx] has joined #scheme 21:30:05 penryu: It's an "I'm useless if we do this project in anything other than Ruby; I don't know any other languages, and I don't want to: it would taint my spirit." 21:30:43 I did hack with some cats at Caltech the other day that were of the latter type, though: "Ruby is pseudo-Scheme with awesome libs." 21:31:27 lawl 21:35:18 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:36:49 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 21:39:16 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:49:40 tupi [~david@189.60.180.75] has joined #scheme 22:00:02 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:36 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-150-65.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 22:01:21 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:01:37 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 22:07:27 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:08:03 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:14:29 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:20:58 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-178.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:21 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:06 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #scheme 22:34:55 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfd21f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:35:24 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfd21f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 22:36:37 -!- doc_who [~doc_who@pool-108-28-6-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:38:51 drdo` [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 22:39:02 I hope the Rails folks will eventually become ruby developers... and less focussed on just one framework... :) 22:40:27 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:40:54 many are. the vocal majority aren't. 22:41:26 -!- yourstruly [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:43:18 relevant: http://bit.ly/oN218o 22:46:57 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 22:50:22 toast` [~toast`@c-76-104-189-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:50:49 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-76-104-189-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:52:00 At least it's not PHP anymore... And maybe some of the more adventurous will realize that many of the cool Ruby features they like also come from Scheme/Lisp... It's similar with JavaScript.. Just wait some years 22:52:12 toast` [~toast`@c-76-104-189-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:55:24 to their credit, there's a significant clojure culture growing inside the ruby community 22:57:10 yep, and anyone who was learning ruby in 2007 will be more likely to learn JavaScript today, just look at all the cool things that can be done in a browser.. and they will get accustomed to a functional view of doing things... and then see that everything is much clearer in scheme... :) 22:59:36 True. For example, Scheme has macros so you can write LET. JS has no LET, so you have to do yucky hacks like (function (foo, bar) {...})(10, 42) instead of doing let (foo = 10; bar = 42) {...}. 23:00:06 (Of course that's how LET works, so internally it's not a hack, but visually it looks like one.) 23:01:05 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-76-104-189-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 23:01:29 and so the js crowd invent coffeescript... 23:03:28 -!- drdo` [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:03:51 drdo` [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 23:05:42 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:07:56 dostoyevsky: Ruby as a gateway drug? maybe. 23:08:27 penryu: Is that you're anecdotal experience? So far, it seems like the respective "communities" are pretty orthogonal to me. 23:09:29 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfd21f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:11:35 klutometis: It's hard to predict things... But when I look on what I learned it was Ruby in 2002, JavaScript in 2006, and now I am learning Scheme.. so in some years, there maybe some cool scheme-thing that everyone has to use. :) 23:11:41 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f7683a9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 23:12:18 Or some other functional language... 23:17:11 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@76.15.192.54] has joined #scheme 23:20:54 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159933.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:29:46 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:30:37 ASau` [~user@95-26-244-67.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 23:31:02 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 23:31:40 klutometis: perhaps not significant relative to the clojure community as a whole; I have seen presentations about clojure at ruby conferences, and at least one of my ruby friends has used it. 23:32:09 that may simply be the Pragmatic Bookshelf effect, though. 23:34:11 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-244-67.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:07 we could perhaps accelerate the effect with appropriate screencasts :) 23:51:09 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 23:53:33 cky: Javascript 1.7 has LET 23:57:19 yourstruly [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 23:57:21 -!- yourstruly [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:58:06 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 23:58:38 yourstruly [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 23:58:40 -!- yourstruly [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:59:22 yourstruly [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 23:59:24 -!- yourstruly [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]