00:00:35 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 00:06:01 pjb: There's an implicit comparison with Scheme, though. 00:06:28 foof: I was about to complain that `#+' and `#-' were ungooglable, but google code search allows regexen: . 00:06:29 http://tinyurl.com/3jfaajh 00:07:12 #+ #- don't handle disjointness or else clauses easily though 00:07:26 There are still no results, though; do they involve some sort of conditioning on available features? 00:08:59 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 00:09:57 Interesting, too, I think that Clojure prefers portmanteaus like `fnext' instead of `cadr'; is the former really more legible? 00:10:03 foof: Thanks. 00:10:28 we really do say "regexn", "emacsen" etc. 00:10:29 we are nerds. 00:11:04 offby1: I got `regexen' from an earlier conversation we had, actually, about `regex' vs. `regexp': `regexen' was supposed to be an advantage of the former. 00:11:06 What is the meaning of `-n', `-en'? 00:11:28 ohwow_: It's a vaguely Teutonic plural; like `Gestalten' from `Gestalt'. 00:11:43 ah 00:11:57 It might even be a joke going as far back as `blickenlights'. 00:12:07 I'm sure the Jargon File talks about it 00:12:16 s/blicken/blinken/ 00:15:10 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfdc1b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:15:18 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f77b96e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 00:17:28 #- and #+ are a pretty bad idea... 00:17:30 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:17:45 `regicesp' 00:19:40 pjb, cut it out. 00:19:45 klutometis: implicit or explicit comparison non withstanding. 00:20:10 What pjb means is `If you make a pest of yourself for years here, you might get kicked out after numerous warnings.' 00:20:56 klutometis: well, just read the logs and judge for yourself. I warned you, that's all I had to say. 00:21:36 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:07 Whining about it won't win you favour. Cut it out. 00:22:21 Who's whining about anything here? 00:22:31 You are. Cut it out. Last warning. 00:22:53 I didn't say anything about CL today, and I'm not whining. 00:22:58 (Hint: The correct response is `OK'.) 00:23:01 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Riastradh 00:23:08 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:23:12 -!- pjb [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has been kicked from #scheme by Riastradh (pjb) 00:23:14 -!- Riastradh has set mode -o Riastradh 00:23:49 why do you consider #+ worse than cond-expand? 00:24:11 weirdo, you have to hack up your own reader if you want to statically analyze it. 00:24:21 ah, ok 00:24:25 It'ss not really a part of the source code any more than a comment is. 00:24:52 oh, yeah, it reduces to the halting problem 00:24:58 since there's #. 00:25:20 Well, that's a problem too, but not quite the same. 00:25:49 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:26:11 lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-214-91.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 00:27:28 it's still a very useful hack (like most of cl), as it allows non-keywords in there 00:27:56 Hmm? 00:28:00 klutometis: I think 'second' is nicer than either 'fnext' or 'cadr' (on lists anyway) 00:28:44 Riastradh, packages can push their own features in there to ease migration 00:28:56 Although I see that 'second' is in clojure too anyway. 00:29:51 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 00:30:32 Well, sure, #+ and #- sometimes serve a useful purpose in practice, but they're a rotten design for the purpose. 00:30:57 silly question but... does define-sytnax do its transformation before everything else is run? 00:33:45 asumu: I was going to mention that certain Schemes provide the `first', `second', etc. selectors; but I just realized they're in SRFI-1! 00:33:57 Amazing that they've been invisible for going on four years now. 00:34:10 -!- oldpier [~oldpier@nusnet-188-149.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:41:37 doc_who [~doc_who@pool-108-28-6-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:48:22 *offby1* clouds men's minds 00:51:39 I see what you're doing there, Mr. Cranston. 00:56:25 soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:03:43 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 01:04:32 oldpier [~oldpier@spnp133220.spnp.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 01:08:34 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:08:53 how could you?! 01:08:55 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 01:09:21 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 01:10:40 I've gotten used to functioning with a clouded mind these days. 01:18:59 permagreen [~alex@97-120-248-127.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:20:08 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-150-65.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:23:56 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:25:53 pandeiro_ [~pandeiro@187.38.242.184] has joined #scheme 01:28:08 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.38.242.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:28:50 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:29:21 prototrout [~steve@ip-64-255-129-222.ideaone.net] has joined #scheme 01:32:27 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #scheme 01:33:44 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:40 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #scheme 01:38:49 srid [~srid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 01:38:49 -!- srid [~srid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:38:49 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #scheme 01:41:27 tupi [~david@189.60.160.15] has joined #scheme 01:42:59 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:45:25 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #scheme 01:47:12 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-150-109-116.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:50:57 DrDuck [~duck@146.229.118.32] has joined #scheme 01:57:11 jkraemer [~jkraemer@nat/google/x-jvwggeprgbqkfdpc] has joined #scheme 01:58:06 -!- jkraemer [~jkraemer@nat/google/x-jvwggeprgbqkfdpc] has quit [Client Quit] 02:00:25 -!- pandeiro_ [~pandeiro@187.38.242.184] has quit [Quit: Thanks, fellas] 02:00:54 pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.38.242.184] has joined #scheme 02:04:03 jcowan: By "clouded," do you mean a deficiency in short-term memory or long-term-memory--mutation; and, if so, do you notice a corresponding superiority in your faculties of abstraction? 02:05:28 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-156.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:05:53 Long term retrieval is unimpaired; long-term storage (or memory-mutation as you call it) is slightly impaired; short-term retrieval is not much better or worse, but it's less likely that if I've forgotten something I'll be able to remember it later than it used to be. 02:06:06 But I can live with that. 02:06:23 What's bad is my reduced ability to understand complex things clearly. 02:07:50 -!- Nisstyre is now known as yourstruly 02:08:03 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-140.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:25:16 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:32:54 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #scheme 02:33:32 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:36:41 jkraemer [~jkraemer@74-95-7-186-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 02:41:51 foof: How would `cond-expand' work better than a `comment', when your goal is to omit stuff? 02:42:30 weirdo: #+ etc are a bad idea because they lump together read-time and runtime in ways that lead to load-order and other hells. 02:42:55 (Not that that's any news in CL, which by "design" does the same kind of lumping for practically everything.) 02:43:13 -!- zanes [~zane@mail.barackobama.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:45:47 The -n plural was pretty much a relic even a thousand years ago in English, and most of the words that had it then have changed to the regular plural, like *shoes*. 02:46:37 ox/oxen and child/children (which is a double plural with the even more archaic -r plural) are the only survivors. 02:46:51 To this we have added Vaxen, boxen, emacsen, regexen, and Macintoshen. 02:51:32 WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-220-121-27.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:51:34 eli: Not sure what you mean - I wasn't comparing cond-expand to comments. 02:53:03 foof: I thought you did, due to "[a `comment' macro] won't work for 90% of the contexts I've seen #; used in." 03:05:35 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:08:04 -!- rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:08:44 rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 03:15:15 -!- permagreen [~alex@97-120-248-127.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Welcome to the real world] 03:15:40 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-156.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:17:36 -!- prototrout [~steve@ip-64-255-129-222.ideaone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:19:21 Brendan_T [~brendan@static.112.22.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 03:21:02 leo2007 [~leo@58.22.114.122] has joined #scheme 03:21:21 eli, usually the set places you want to put a COND-EXPAND is much more limited than the set of places you want to put a comment. 03:23:52 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.160.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:31:07 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-220-121-27.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:31:54 Riastradh: In that case it's ... degenerately better? 03:32:05 *eli* doesn't `cond-expand' much 03:33:09 Well, yeah. I'm just pointing out that one criticism of COMMENT doesn't apply to COND-EXPAND. That's not to say that COND-EXPAND is a good idea... 03:33:26 (`doesn't fully apply') 03:36:31 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:38:20 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 03:38:32 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:40:27 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:44:45 -!- oldpier [~oldpier@spnp133220.spnp.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:48:49 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:52:29 -!- doc_who [~doc_who@pool-108-28-6-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:57:37 oldpier [~oldpier@spnp133220.spnp.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 04:04:44 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 04:05:12 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 04:06:47 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #scheme 04:08:18 jcowan: By "complex things," do you mean "novel complex things?" And do you attribute that cognitive degeneration to a corresponding memory degeneration; or do you think it's orthogonal? 04:10:09 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 04:10:47 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:12:15 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:12:28 -!- oldpier [~oldpier@spnp133220.spnp.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:12:51 -!- leo2007 [~leo@58.22.114.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:13:03 eli: It was a rough analogy: cond-expand : #+/#- :: comment-macro : #; 04:14:33 -!- rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:23:23 leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.160] has joined #scheme 04:23:34 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:28:02 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:42:31 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:54:13 kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-1-145-43.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 04:56:56 -!- DrDuck [~duck@146.229.118.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:07:56 -!- leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:08:01 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05178.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 05:15:20 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 05:18:02 nataraj [~user@124.124.203.9] has joined #scheme 05:18:05 Hi 05:18:45 any free webservers on the net which has any of the scheme support? 05:23:50 oldpier [~oldpier@nusnet-228-5.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 05:32:12 gauche scheme perhaps? 05:33:11 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 05:51:52 poindontcare [~user@122.161.84.18] has joined #scheme 05:52:32 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:54:11 try webserv.bmedctr.com 05:55:17 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:55:56 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:57:46 -!- oldpier is now known as woonie 06:02:21 soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:05:00 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 06:08:13 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.38.242.184] has quit [Quit: Thanks, fellas] 06:09:37 -!- ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:09:42 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:10:35 zanes [~zane@108-90-245-81.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:12:58 klutometis: Novel complex things, yes. I don't know if the cause is separate or not. 06:13:53 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:14:10 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:14:18 ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 06:26:01 nataraj: That's part of the reason I was working on a Scheme in PHP: wide support; I'd like to finish it some day. 06:30:31 -!- woonie [~oldpier@nusnet-228-5.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:30:45 -!- rimmjob [~king@adsl-108-195-221-70.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:50 rimmjob [~king@adsl-108-195-221-70.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:31:11 woonie [~oldpier@nusnet-228-5.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 06:31:26 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:32:02 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 06:43:11 klutometis, how is it going? 06:44:41 -!- amoe [~amoe@cpc3-brig16-2-0-cust858.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:50:39 nataraj: It was going for a while; but I became disgusted by PHP's half-ass implementation of closures. I need to stop being such a language snob; hold my nose; and dive in. 06:51:28 amoe [~amoe@cpc3-brig16-2-0-cust858.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 06:51:48 -!- amoe [~amoe@cpc3-brig16-2-0-cust858.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:55:18 amoe [~amoe@cpc3-brig16-2-0-cust858.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 07:00:13 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:14:39 poindont` [~user@122.176.246.27] has joined #scheme 07:16:21 -!- poindontcare [~user@122.161.84.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:17:27 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 07:18:05 php doesn't have a garbage collector 07:18:14 it might make circular data structures hard to accomplish 07:19:56 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 07:20:15 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:24:29 php is built completely around the CGI model: it doesn't matter if you leak memory like a sieve if you just handle a request and kill/clean up the whole process 07:26:08 weirdo: I love how it always hints that recursion is something evil and bad and something to avoid; for instance, it prints *RECURSION* when you try to print out a circular data structure and has an error "too much recursion" when you run out of stack (if it doesn't crash or segfault, that is) 07:26:12 -!- rimmjob is now known as fronz 07:26:46 well unbounded recursion *is* something to avoid :) 07:26:59 but i hate the language the same as you do 07:27:14 It doesn't have to be unbounded for it to print that 07:27:23 I think the default maximum recursion level is 500 07:28:13 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-1-145-43.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:28:46 Not strictly true, because PHP 5.3 added some sort of specialized cycle-collecting GC to complement the reference counting, along with their closure... thing. 07:29:03 some what? 07:32:07 ugh 07:36:25 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-145-43.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 07:38:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 07:44:58 masm [~masm@bl16-199-233.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 07:47:11 -!- zanes [~zane@108-90-245-81.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:58:22 -!- jkraemer [~jkraemer@74-95-7-186-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:09:17 This guy makes me rage: . 08:09:17 http://tinyurl.com/4xvuyqy 08:09:42 "Thus Scheme should be looked upon as a programming language toolkit, not a complete language in itself." 08:10:14 It's true. 08:10:19 I guess he is right 08:10:20 Scheme is a languag. 08:10:24 I wonder where he derives the authority of "should"? 08:10:38 by his self confidence 08:11:14 He maintains his own Scheme 08:11:18 What Scheme is that? 08:12:20 I posted on reddit programming for about a week, but have now given up becuase of the massive rage if you even hint that common lisp or python aren't the be all end all of everything 08:14:14 lewis1711: proggit used to be SICP-friendly; that's even where I heard about SICP first. 08:14:34 No, wait; I'm thinking of Hacker News. 08:15:23 klutometis: I was actually defending ruby at the time. which is heresy 08:15:45 lewis1711: Interesting; was this back in '05? 08:15:50 I think I'll just stick to occasional lambda the ultimate lurking (no way am I smart enough to post there) 08:16:06 klutometis: no, the other week :D 08:16:40 lewis1711: Heh; just kidding. Went to a Ruby hackers group last week; really good peeps, actually. They were mystified by having a Scheme-hacker in their midst, though. 08:16:45 They kept asking: "why?" 08:17:00 lol. why scheme? 08:17:03 Yeah. 08:17:12 heh, silly people 08:17:24 I think Rubyists and Schemers have something in common, though: metaprogramming and continuations. 08:17:57 I thought they took those out in 1.9 08:18:23 god I still don't know what continuations are. I've only started writing my first macros... then again I haven't touched scheme in months before yesterday 08:18:23 They spent a little too much time musing over syntax for my taste, though; like: why does this collection-constructor have a star, etc. 08:18:44 Rubyists _like_ syntax 08:18:44 sjamaan: Oh, really? Hmm. 08:19:08 klutometis: Because they were too hard or something. And they don't completely work in 1.8 either 08:19:26 the reason I like ruby is because of the whole everything's an object thing. (and by that I mean an actual full-blown object that can recieve messages) 08:19:27 (there's some bug in the GC that causes some things to stick around while they shouldn't) 08:19:44 lewis1711: Except for fixnums :) 08:19:46 sjamaan: Damn, you're right: . 08:19:46 http://tinyurl.com/3mpvtey 08:22:23 sjamaan: huh? 1.class => Fixnum 08:22:40 lewis1711: http://avdi.org/devblog/2011/08/17/you-cant-subclass-integers-in-ruby 08:23:20 It's a nice facade but it doesn't work 100% I guess 08:23:31 sjamaan: That struct me as kind of funny, too; some kind of optimization or something? 08:23:35 Anyway, supporting this would make it even slower 08:24:04 klutometis: Keeping *everything* open like Ruby does makes things slow as you can't make a lot of optimizations 08:24:05 sjamaan: I don't think it's right to call them "not an object" because of that. 08:25:01 -!- fronz is now known as rimmjob 08:25:18 lewis1711: Yeah, you can still send messages to them and such 08:25:43 I imagine making them unsubclassable is to get rid of dynamic dispatch 08:27:29 speaking of objects - I want to implement a system in scheme somehow. should be educational. 08:27:48 sjamaan: Wow, that guy whose blog you linked to looks just like this: Whoops: http://www.zap2it.com/news/zap-sesame-street-anniversary-pics,0,3894717.photogallery?index=3 08:28:15 http://tinyurl.com/3m6l2fo 08:29:02 hahaha 08:29:02 Compare: http://avdi.org/devblog/about/ 08:29:19 lewis1711: Something like prototype-based objects; or reinventing CLOS? 08:29:21 *sjamaan* sees the resemblance 08:29:57 lewis1711: You could also study one of the many OO systems that already exist 08:29:59 klutometis: never used CLOS. I was thinking something like ruby 08:30:40 sjamaan: Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Avdi Grimm and Count von Count special-cased integers. ;) 08:33:23 hehe 08:33:40 1 scheme implementation 08:33:50 2 scheme implementations *mhuahaha* 08:33:57 *thunder* 08:34:39 :D 08:35:10 question: what sort of macro is '()? seeing as it exists outside of an s-expression 08:35:28 ? 08:35:34 is there any Make(file)-system replacement written in Scheme? 08:35:36 C-Keen: "That's n, n + 1 Scheme implementations! Ah-ah-ah-ah!" 08:35:44 klutometis: agreed 08:36:05 mmc: depends, for chicken there is a system extension that provides similar features 08:36:10 the quote thing. also the vector thing #(3 2). I figured they were macros.. 08:36:28 # is reader syntax 08:36:59 how quote is implemented is specific to the implementation 08:38:32 lewis1711: 'x is expanded by the reader into (quote x) 08:38:37 jkraemer [~jkraemer@74-95-7-186-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 08:38:45 Try ''x, you'll see 08:39:05 yeah, I was wondering how it was done. isn't the reader expanding something what a macro is? 08:39:33 Those are called reader macros 08:39:34 I meant the actual syntax of sticking a symbol infront of an s-expression 08:39:35 no the reader transforms input tokens into scheme objects 08:39:38 That's a different class of macros 08:40:02 yep 08:40:03 In some schemes you can add your own reader syntax extensions 08:40:46 -!- jkraemer [~jkraemer@74-95-7-186-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:40:48 ah, thanks 08:44:11 -!- ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:48:53 ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 09:44:22 -!- poindont` [~user@122.176.246.27] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:44:30 poindont` [~user@122.176.246.27] has joined #scheme 09:50:31 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:52:21 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 10:06:27 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:19:16 tupi [~david@189.60.160.15] has joined #scheme 10:23:38 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-221-224.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: off] 10:27:36 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:36:34 jimmyrcom1 [~fold@75.53.32.104] has joined #scheme 10:36:46 -!- jimmyrcom [~fold@adsl-75-53-44-225.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:38:04 -!- jimmyrcom1 [~fold@75.53.32.104] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:39:53 jimmyrcom [~fold@adsl-75-53-32-104.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 10:44:06 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-150-65.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 11:04:11 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-83-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:11:50 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-83-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:30:18 -!- sepisultrum [j1e8kw4onb@hcl-club.lu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:30:29 sepisultrum [il9wcty4y2@hcl-club.lu] has joined #scheme 11:39:43 DrDuck [~duck@146.229.119.19] has joined #scheme 11:41:31 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-150-65.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:47:03 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:50:03 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 11:53:07 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:55:41 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:00:42 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #scheme 12:05:41 sjamaan: you can't subclass Fixnums in Ruby because of a (lisp-borrowed, obviously) optimization: the type of fixnum is indicated by low bits of VALUE 12:06:00 if you'd create an instance of a subclass, it won't get recognized by any of the standard routines 12:06:11 same with true, false, nil and Symbol 12:06:21 not a big limitation, I'd say 12:07:22 I'm pretty sure you can subclass numbers in Lisp 12:08:11 sjamaan: I'm not saying you cannot subclass them in Lisp. I just say that some Lisp implementations had that optimization earlier than Ruby 12:08:30 well, they're even called fixnums, what else can you expect?.. 12:08:34 The representation of fixnums themselves doesn't need to influence subclasses of them 12:09:00 A fixnum can be stored tagged, an object of a subclass of it can be stored as a full object 12:09:14 yes, that's an implementation quirk: there are tag checks all over the code 12:09:34 So it's actually more of a bug than an optimization feature, probably 12:10:08 it is not a bug as it is not an unexpected behavior -- I think it's even mentioned in the standard 12:10:24 Ruby has a standard now? 12:10:28 yep 12:10:32 heh 12:10:35 1.8 branch has a standard 12:11:12 it is not widely known, but it is a perfectly valid document (I don't count RubySpec, which is a standard in some sense, too) 12:11:36 oh, there's even a site: http://ruby-standard.org/ 12:12:09 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 12:15:04 mmc: Racket (I guess) and Chicken have a `make' macro. I don't know if that's exactly what you are looking for. http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/make 12:16:05 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 12:20:50 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f77b96e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:20:58 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f77ba39.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 12:21:49 mario-goulart: indeed,that seems to be very relevant. 12:22:27 mmc, jao was working on a make-like years ago named conjure, but it has fizzled out. 12:22:55 I hope it can use the file timestamps to simulate what real Make does. 12:23:38 sjamaan: numbers are objects in lisp? huh 12:24:09 lewis1711: Everything is an object in Lisp 12:24:32 but not in the smalltalk sense, I am guessing 12:24:35 In Common Lisp with CLOS all objects also have one or more classes 12:25:09 Not in the smalltalk sense; CLOS uses generics / multimethods for dispatching, not message passing 12:26:02 dsmith: perfect! 12:26:28 then how are they objects? maybe that term is just too overloaded 12:26:35 In Scheme, OO systems like TinyCLOS add in classes for all pre-existing object types 12:27:02 lewis1711: Yes, the terms with OO are way too overloaded 12:27:50 Look at your favorite Scheme's documentation; there's a big chance it refers to values as objects 12:28:08 yeah, I remember that. I also remember stuff in C being referred to as objects.. 12:28:30 using the term "pure OOP" also annoys people off no end but I don't have a better term. 12:28:32 Object doesn't necessarily mean "thing which accepts messages and dispatches on them" 12:29:22 isn't that what Alan Kay meant? maybe I'll call them Kay-structures :D 12:29:24 Object doesn't necessarily mean anything. 12:29:37 lewis1711: It's because "pure OOP" is undefined. Which is purer, for example: class-based systems like Java or prototype-based systems like Javascript? 12:30:00 not familiar with javascript - but since java has primitives... 12:30:09 And I'd say generics are pretty "pure" too 12:30:40 ...ignoring the primitives for now 12:30:47 I don't know what the proper term is for "language in which everything is either an object (in the Alan Kay sense) or messages" 12:30:51 (that's a separate issue, unless that's what you mean by pure) 12:30:54 I've seen that referred to as pure OOP a few places 12:31:00 I see 12:31:36 I'd say that's a useful definition. By that definition, I think Common Lisp can be called pure, and most Scheme OO systems too 12:31:41 maybe since functional ideas are becoming popular, soon that will be horribly overloaded too and C# will be a functional programming language :) 12:32:58 I don't get it. I have a common lisp here... how do I send messages to a number? ;) except they're generic methods, like you said, but then.. 12:34:57 You don't send messages in a system like that 12:35:02 It's a different approach to OO 12:35:11 Equally valid, but very different 12:35:53 Generics make it easier to add new methods to existing classes, as well as making existing methods accept new argument types 12:36:28 And there's not this stupid question of what number adds the other to itself; methods don't "belong" to objects 12:37:29 reading about it now 12:37:50 just sounds like collection of generic functions. 12:40:28 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@d135-185.icpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6-dev] 12:44:58 weirdo [~sthalik@d135-185.icpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 12:46:36 -!- DrDuck [~duck@146.229.119.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:48:56 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-214-91.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 12:49:09 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@d135-185.icpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 13:01:49 rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 13:03:56 weirdo [~sthalik@d135-185.icpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 13:08:43 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:09:39 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 13:11:14 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-171-0.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 13:37:48 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-150-65.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 13:48:04 Does anyone know if ulimit -m is supposed to work on OS X? 13:48:10 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 13:49:06 I see, it seems most systems don't honor the -m limit. 13:49:17 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@d135-185.icpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6-dev] 13:54:37 The OS X setrlimit page says of RLIMIT_RSS (underlying ulimit -m) that if the system runs out of physical memory, it will prefer to take pages from processes that are over their declared limit, but it doesn't seem to be any sort of hard limit. 13:59:36 replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:06:35 xissburg [~xissburg@187.50.13.57] has joined #scheme 14:08:10 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:35 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 14:15:02 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@static.112.22.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21:51 Nah, my first idea is better - I need my own malloc to test OOM errors. 14:24:40 chylli [~lchangyin@112.235.239.11] has joined #scheme 14:27:04 foof, you probably want to use RLIMIT_DATA (ulimit -d) instead. 14:27:44 RLIMIT_RSS won't cause malloc to fail; at most, it will just change swapping and oom-killer decisions. 14:27:56 Riastradh: I tried, that didn't help at all. 14:28:15 I tried -d, -l, -m, -v. 14:28:30 -v doesn't seem to work either 14:32:08 Then maybe Mac OS X is broken. 14:33:46 Of course it is. Just more so than I thought. 14:36:51 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #scheme 14:40:17 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:42:03 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-127.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:42:28 moo 14:43:19 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:43:51 I suppose I could run qemu or some such to simulate a limited-memory environment, but then I have to deal with starting up an OS. And qemu is often buggy on OS X. 14:46:22 zanes [~zane@108-90-245-81.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:49:48 aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:57:57 you are writing oom test cases? 14:58:48 soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:01:29 Yes. 15:04:17 RLIMIT_DATA will limit the data segment as per sbrk; if the local malloc() uses something mmap-style, that might not do anything. The OS X man page does not mention RLIMIT_AS (the "-v" limit) at all, and RLIMIT_MEMLOCK ("-l") isn't usually very important. 15:07:56 RLIMIT_MEMLOCK is relevant only to mlock or MAP_WIRED. 15:14:13 Sometimes you can do that thing where you swibble in your own fake-malloc in place of the libc one (with LD_PRELOAD on Linux) but that's quite unportable and I wouldn't know how to do something like that on OS X. And Valgrind, which has an OS X port and could easily support it, doesn't seem to have a memory limit option. 15:15:07 Well, you'd probably need a fake mmap, really. 15:15:32 ...but that might not be enough either. 15:20:00 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 15:24:54 phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has joined #scheme 15:25:29 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:29:11 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-171-85.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 15:29:12 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.160.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:32:14 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-171-0.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:21 slom [~sloma@port-87-234-239-162.static.qsc.de] has joined #scheme 15:44:34 -!- nataraj [~user@124.124.203.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:46:18 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 15:50:52 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:59:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:40 srid [~srid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 15:59:48 -!- srid [~srid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:59:48 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #scheme 16:01:17 -!- phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:06:49 -!- chylli [~lchangyin@112.235.239.11] has left #scheme 16:07:06 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 16:09:57 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:11:08 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 16:16:17 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 16:16:21 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:16:25 weirdo [~sthalik@d135-185.icpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 16:19:37 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 16:19:37 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:21:11 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:22:09 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:22:50 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #scheme 16:23:06 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 16:25:38 I have now linenumbers in my scheme, for better error messages. :) 16:26:17 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:28:00 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:30:52 DrDuck [~duck@146.229.119.19] has joined #scheme 16:32:42 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@d135-185.icpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6-dev] 16:34:57 weirdo [~sthalik@d135-185.icpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 16:37:03 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:42 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 16:37:55 OK, just a simple conditional wrapper around malloc works fine for testing. All I need to do is be able to return NULL under some vaguely consistent circumstances. 16:42:22 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-213-184.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:50:13 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-34.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:50:55 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:51:23 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 16:52:16 rudybot: later tell lewis1711 the problem is that `ffi' provides a different binding for `->' 16:52:16 minion: memo for lewis1711: samth told me to tell you: the problem is that `ffi' provides a different binding for `->' 16:52:34 dammit, why don't we have any good bots in this channel 16:52:35 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:35 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-157-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:52:40 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #scheme 16:52:40 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 16:52:40 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #scheme 16:54:49 soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:56:07 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #scheme 16:57:00 *rudybot* clears throat 16:57:19 sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:57:21 samth: patches welcome :-) 17:02:47 leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.186] has joined #scheme 17:09:25 thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0156.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 17:17:25 HG` [~HG@p579F7D1E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:18:58 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:23:18 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:25:10 -!- slom [~sloma@port-87-234-239-162.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:32 -!- thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0156.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:29:24 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 17:29:58 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:32:37 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:34:05 jkraemer [~jkraemer@nat/google/x-wfosfpagfndiwwhi] has joined #scheme 17:35:11 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 17:40:19 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:43:14 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 17:45:22 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:50:23 pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.38.242.184] has joined #scheme 17:53:14 f8l [~f8l@77-254-82-137.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #scheme 17:54:18 penryu [~tanuki@unaffiliated/penryu] has joined #scheme 18:02:03 What's a good test-case for string-copy? 18:06:53 rudybot / offby1: the only bug here is the absence of minion 18:10:46 -!- zanes [~zane@108-90-245-81.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:12:26 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-127.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:13:09 All we have to fear is .. BOTS! RUN FORYOURLIVES 18:13:58 All we need now is a bot that asks random questions to rudybot, so we do not need to 18:17:08 whitequark: Re Picobit compiling on ARM: Cool! The 8k size is quite impressive too. I'd guess that it's mostly due to the ARM instruction set being richer than PIC18's. 18:17:33 The PIC18 instruction set is quite clean, but quite impoverished. 18:18:48 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:37 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #scheme 18:30:57 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-165-188.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:36:46 -!- xissburg [~xissburg@187.50.13.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:38:54 xissburg [~xissburg@187.50.13.57] has joined #scheme 18:38:58 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:39:53 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-165-188.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:40:50 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 18:41:34 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:46:19 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 18:47:01 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin_ 18:47:16 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:47:20 -!- copumpkin_ is now known as copumpkin 18:47:27 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 18:48:05 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Client Quit] 18:49:24 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 19:03:58 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 19:07:14 -!- aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 19:13:13 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 19:13:33 -!- r11t [~r11t@ec2-50-18-44-29.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:13:55 -!- leo2007 [~leo@58.22.113.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:14:58 Intensity [8kOhTKhv3s@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #scheme 19:19:18 phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has joined #scheme 19:28:33 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-34.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:58:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-213-184.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:01 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 20:06:20 jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 20:21:13 minion: chant 20:21:19 noooooo 20:26:25 ASau [~user@95-24-221-224.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 20:28:25 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:30 rudybot: chant 20:35:30 minion: chant 20:35:38 bwahahah 20:35:53 offby1, can you add a real 'chant' to rudybot? 20:38:10 rudybot: patches welcome? 20:38:10 amoe: because ubuntu likes to apply patches. 20:38:21 they sure do. 20:45:10 -!- phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:48:07 zanes [~zane@mail.barackobama.com] has joined #scheme 20:51:40 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-171-85.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:18 Is there something like (find proc list) in r5rs? It's like for-each but it would terminate if proc returns #f... 21:04:51 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:05:07 No. It's in SRFI 1. 21:07:46 What would one use to implement it? (length) and then (list-ref l n) for proc? 21:08:31 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 21:10:13 dostoyevsky: just recursion over the list 21:11:07 stamourv: I find the PIC8 (16xxx series) instruction set the worse in the world, and a fellow programmer who had coded for PIC32's has said quite the same 21:11:19 s,worse,worst, 21:11:35 I don't know anything about pic18 series, through 21:11:46 soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:12:23 whitequark: I haven't worked with other PICs, so I don't know. 21:13:20 And PIC18 assembly would probably be painful to use to build anything serious, but it's easy to keep in your head, and is a nice target language for a compiler. 21:13:34 stamourv: regarding the code size, I think that quite a big improvement may be caused by 32-bit arithmetics 21:13:56 Ah yes, that probably helps. 21:13:59 as I understand it, pic18 is a 8-bit controller, and it has quite limited support for 16-bit number manipulation (if any) 21:14:05 and it's used in a lot of places 21:14:40 8x8 multiplication has 16-bit results, but that's it. Anything else is all 8-bit. 21:14:59 (Except addressing, which is 12, but has its own set of quirks.) 21:16:35 again, I don't know about pic18, but pic8 had a 12-bit-wide code flash and four data banks, over which registers and some (not a lot) cells of free RAM were scattered 21:16:41 it was a really big pain. 21:17:19 since then, I've switched to AVR -- compared to it, PIC is like eating nails covered in acid. 21:17:27 I mean PIC8, of course. 21:17:30 -!- f8l [~f8l@77-254-82-137.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 21:18:03 not to say it had some weird C compiler (sdcc; there's no gcc port) which has generated suboptimal and sometimes just incorrect code. 21:18:26 That's pretty bad. 21:18:28 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:19:03 I'm curious, what the performance is? 21:19:21 in your article, you've described some interesting facts about compilers 21:19:34 does SIXPIC use stack at all, or have you managed to fit everything into registers? 21:19:56 does Hi-Tech C, which gives smaller code than SIXPIC, use stack a lot and hence is it slower? 21:21:33 PIC18 has a 16-deep stack for return addresses. If you want a stack for arguments, you have to roll your own. 21:21:51 SIXPIC just passes everything in registers, and forbids recursion. 21:22:33 Combine that with whole-program register allocation, and a lot of argument passing is completely free. 21:23:08 Our reasoning is that SIXPIC is optimized for VMs, and you don't really need recursion for that. 21:23:32 yeah, I understand that -- it is a really nice optimization 21:23:57 maybe sometimes I'll want to write a similar ARM-targeted compiler -- but definitely not now 21:24:12 As for Hi-Tech C, it's proprietary, so who knows what they do. But it's a >1000$ compiler, with a large team working full-time on it, so it's probably just doing a lot of things, and end up beating us. 21:24:28 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:24:41 so you didn't checked the assembly 21:24:50 *disassembly, of course 21:25:01 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:25:05 A bit, but I don't recall anything really striking. 21:25:34 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7D1E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:26:13 But hey, a simple compiler that took ~1 man-year to write (SIXPIC) coming within ~10% of a commercial, highly mature compiler. That's enough to make me happy :). 21:27:17 -!- rimmjob [~king@adsl-108-195-221-70.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:31:47 stamourv: the arduino port you've mentioned has some really bad code smell issues (a lot of copy&paste), so I think I'll just fork yours 21:32:19 whitequark: That may be, I haven't looked closely at the code. 21:32:33 recently I've had much fun with Linux architecture-dependent subsystems, so that experience may be handy 21:32:54 And as I mentioned, he probably forked it from an older version, so forking from mine may be a good idea anyway. 21:33:16 Great! 21:41:59 sstrickl [~sstrickl@c-71-192-163-167.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:43:27 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:49:33 stamourv: also, the phrase about "C's metaprogramming abilites" makes me chuckle by some reason... 21:50:55 Well, it has a preprocessor... 21:51:11 I'd call that "a metaprogramming disability" 21:51:16 *stamourv* shifts around uncomfortably 21:51:29 That may be more accurate. 21:52:01 I guess that SIXPIC was written in Scheme, right? 21:52:09 Yep, Gambit. 21:52:31 And it's about as unportable as it gets, since it depends on some of Gambit's internals. 21:53:56 I was thinking a bit about Picobit's heap 21:54:41 from one side, it's an extremely simple and efficient design where each object occupies the same amount of memory 21:55:11 from the other, I'm not comfortable with the idea that strings eat four times more space than they have characters... or, more accurately, octets 21:55:30 and the bit vector space looks a bit quirky 21:55:40 but I don't have a solution, through. 21:55:48 *byte vector 21:55:51 whitequark: Strings could be improved, and byte-vectors could be used for that. 21:56:07 But how much string processing are you going to do on an embedded system anyway? 21:56:22 that depends on a kind of embedded system 21:56:32 I have one project which uses AT commands excessively 21:56:45 As for the byte vector space, it's a bit quirky, but it makes it possible to have contiguously allocated byte vectors while still having all 4-byte objects. 21:57:35 Picobit was deisgned for very small embedded systems, where you're less likely to do so, AFAIK. 21:57:53 Anyway, I gotta run. I'll be back next week. In the meantime, I'll be on email. 21:57:59 okay 21:58:01 bye, then 22:14:16 -!- xissburg [~xissburg@187.50.13.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:24 hypercube32 [~hypercube@231.125.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:27:14 cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:27:51 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:30:55 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 22:32:29 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #scheme 22:53:11 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 22:53:28 Does anyone know what happened to the visual expression editor that was demo'd by the PLT group in the Scheme workshop a few years ago? 22:53:43 Is there a working public demo of the thing still around, has it matured? 23:04:09 arcfide: do you mean the SW in boston? 23:04:27 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:42 soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:10:01 Mmm, I think it was the 2009 workshop. 23:10:54 It was an expression editor that dynamically resized the text to show nesting levels in the code, I think it was written in JavaScript or something like that. 23:11:44 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:37 was it the 3-d live editing thing? 23:12:59 fluxus? 23:13:06 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 23:13:12 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #scheme 23:13:21 I don't think that it was 3-d. 23:13:43 But if that has something similar, that would be interesting to see. 23:15:16 http://www.pawfal.org/fluxus/ 23:17:03 arcfide: you're probably thinking of wescheme 23:17:19 http://www.wescheme.org/openEditor 23:17:41 but i don't think the public version has the structure editor 23:17:56 danny yoo would know more 23:40:16 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:54 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 23:43:11 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:45:24 -!- soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:11 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 23:55:42 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #scheme