00:01:08 <hoonkim1> no it is not, just work
00:01:17 <hoonkim1> (define (p) (p)) is work
00:01:55 <hoonkim1> but the problem is when we call (p) and then fall in loop
00:02:21 <hoonkim1> until when we cancle the command
00:02:24 <chemuduguntar> hmm i learn something new
00:03:23 <chemuduguntar> i think you you've written there is (define p (lambda () (p)))
00:03:39 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-79-172.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
00:04:10 <chemuduguntar> remember doing (define (proc param1 param2 ...) is just special syntax for long form lambda
00:04:44 <chemuduguntar> what are you trying to say / do with p?
00:05:24 <pyro-> exactly what it says i imagine
00:05:50 <pyro-> there's an exercise in SICP that uses an unbounded loop to test for evaluation order of the machine
00:05:51 <lisppaste> HOON annotated #123519 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123519#1
00:06:51 <hoonkim1> This code from quiz and I expect that it will be 0
00:07:24 <hoonkim1> but it is fall in loop not from first line. Just from last line.
00:07:35 <pjb> hoonkim1: it's an infinite loop too.
00:08:11 <pyro-> the point of the exercise in SICP is that it's only an infinite loop if the machine uses applicative order evaluation
00:08:26 <hoonkim1> Yes infinite loop. because (p) call (p) again and again
00:08:33 <pjb> That's because scheme (like most other programming languages) implement applicative order.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy
00:09:08 <pjb> Some other language use lazy evaluation, where the arguments are evaluated only when they're used by the called procedure.
00:09:36 <pjb> You can simulate it in scheme, with thunks.
00:10:25 <lisppaste> pjb annotated #123519 "using a thunk" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123519#2
00:10:38 <hoonkim1> OIC hmm it is deep side of scheme. interesting!
00:11:06 <pjb> This can be syntactically abstracted with macros. See delay and force.
00:11:54 <hoonkim1> This one is work even small differece.
00:12:47 <pjb> It just mean that the arguments are evaluated before the procedure is called, and all the procedure sees in its parameters, are the values resulting from the evaluation of the arguments.
00:13:05 <pjb> Notice however, that scheme evaluates the arguments (and the procedure itself) in any order.
00:14:04 <pjb> (define f (lambda (a) (display a)))  (f (begin (set! f (lambda (a) (display (list a a)))) 42)) may display 42 or (42 42), depending on your oscheme implementation.
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00:25:23 <hoonkim1> Thanks, I want to check am I right. so.. it is depending on when it is evaluating.
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00:26:03 <hoonkim1> like a applicative order Vesus lazy evaluate which is evaluate after result
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00:39:33 <chemuduguntar> I believe the other form is called normal order
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03:28:17 <jcowan> hoi
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03:29:07 <cky> Oink!
03:29:21 <cky> Or should I say, hoink. :-)
03:29:38 <jcowan> Whichever you like.
03:31:53 <cky> :-D
03:34:29 <jcowan> So, who's gonna look at Draft 3 and find all the egregious errors we have missed?
03:35:50 <jcowan> http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/attachment/wiki/WikiStart/r7rs-draft-3.pdf
03:36:40 <teurastaja> (apply write (list arguments))
03:37:29 <teurastaja> does that work?
03:38:33 <offby1> rudybot: (define arguments (list "you suck" "so's your old man" "that's like, so 1998"))
03:38:33 <rudybot> *offby1: so's your old man
03:38:40 <offby1> rudybot: eval (define arguments (list "you suck" "so's your old man" "that's like, so 1998"))
03:38:41 <rudybot> *offby1: your sandbox is ready
03:38:41 <rudybot> *offby1: Done.
03:38:53 <offby1> rudybot: eval (apply write (list arguments))
03:38:53 <rudybot> *offby1: ; stdout: "(\"you suck\" \"so's your old man\" \"that's like, so 1998\")"
03:39:00 <offby1> teurastaja: I guess so.
03:39:17 <offby1> rudybot: eval (apply write arguments)
03:39:17 <rudybot> *offby1: error: write: expects 1 to 2 arguments, given 3: "you suck" "so's your old man" "that's like, so 1998"
03:39:28 <offby1> rudybot: eval (apply* write arguments)
03:39:29 <rudybot> *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: apply* in module: 'program
03:39:31 <offby1> pfft
03:39:48 <teurastaja> B-P
03:39:59 <jcowan> So it works for some values of "work".
03:40:01 <cky> teurastaja: Perhaps you meant for-each.
03:40:38 <cky> teurastaja: (for-each write '("you suck\n" "so's your old man\n" "that's like, so 1998"))
03:40:45 <cky> rudybot: (for-each write '("you suck\n" "so's your old man\n" "that's like, so 1998"))
03:40:45 <rudybot> cky: that's the way to read it?
03:40:54 <cky> rudybot: eval (for-each write '("you suck\n" "so's your old man\n" "that's like, so 1998"))
03:40:54 <rudybot> cky: ; stdout: "\"you suck\\n\"\"so's your old man\\n\"\"that's like, so 1998\""
03:41:09 <cky> rudybot: eval (for-each display '("you suck\n" "so's your old man\n" "that's like, so 1998"))
03:41:10 <rudybot> cky: ; stdout: "you suck\nso's your old man\nthat's like, so 1998"
03:41:21 <cky> Third time's the charm.
03:41:45 <jcowan> I'm wondering if \ is magic.
03:42:03 <offby1> if you gots to wonder, you'll never know
03:42:29 <cky> jcowan: R6RS supports C-style character escapes, if that's what you mean (but you knew that already). So I'm not sure what your question is about. :-)
03:42:47 <Riastradh> Abracadabra, hocus-pocus...\!
03:42:52 <jcowan> I don't know what Scheme rudybot uses, though.
03:42:57 <cky> jcowan: Racket.
03:43:01 <jcowan> Ah.
03:43:27 <offby1> rudybot: eval (banner)
03:43:28 <rudybot> *offby1: ; Value: "Welcome to Racket v5.1.1.\n"
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03:43:54 <jcowan> rudybot: eval (display "foo")
03:43:54 <rudybot> jcowan: your sandbox is ready
03:43:55 <rudybot> jcowan: ; stdout: "foo"
03:44:16 <cky> rudybot: (define (banner) (display "GNU Guile 2.0.2.25-f4b7") (newline))
03:44:16 <rudybot> cky: Done.
03:44:19 <jcowan> So it's rudybot, not eval, that's reinserting the \n escapes.
03:44:21 <cky> rudybot: eval (banner)
03:44:22 <rudybot> cky: ; stdout: "GNU Guile 2.0.2.25-f4b7\n"
03:44:49 <cky> Actually, that'd have been funnier if I did the define in a private message to rudybot first. ;-)
03:45:02 <jcowan> rudybot: eval (write "You are bogus, nyah nyah\n" (current-error-output))
03:45:02 <rudybot> jcowan: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: current-error-output in module: 'program
03:45:03 <cky> s/first/instead/
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03:45:31 <cky> rudybot: eval (write "You are bogus, nyah nyah\n" (current-error-port))
03:45:31 <rudybot> cky: ; stderr: "\"You are bogus, nyah nyah\\n\""
03:45:40 <jcowan> Thanks.
03:46:18 <cky> :-)
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03:47:26 <pjb> That's obviously wrong.
03:47:43 <pjb> It should be (display '#1=(nyah . #1#))
03:48:53 <jcowan> Okay.
03:49:03 <jcowan> rudybot: eval (display '#1=(nyah . #1#))
03:49:03 <rudybot> jcowan: error: eval:1:10: read: #..= expressions not allowed in read-syntax mode
03:49:34 <pjb> How weak scheme is :-(
03:49:45 <jcowan> eval (begin (define x '(nyah)) (set-cdr! x x) (display x))
03:49:54 <jcowan> rudybot: eval (begin (define x '(nyah)) (set-cdr! x x) (display x))
03:49:54 <rudybot> jcowan: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: set-cdr! in module: 'program
03:52:27 <offby1> no mutable conses in racket by default
03:57:55 <jcowan> Quite.
04:01:35 <chemuduguntar> i just saw rainbows
04:01:37 <chemuduguntar> don't know why
04:04:17 <offby1> synasthaesia?
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04:05:15 <teurastaja> rudybot: eval (define arguments (string-append "what" "ever"))
04:05:19 <rudybot> teurastaja: your sandbox is ready
04:05:19 <rudybot> teurastaja: Done.
04:05:25 <teurastaja> rudybot: eval (apply display (list arguments))
04:05:25 <rudybot> teurastaja: ; stdout: "whatever"
04:07:05 <teurastaja> i know the list is useless but i wanted to leave opportunities for arguments to be changed
04:07:41 <jcowan> That's no different from (display arguments)
04:08:44 <teurastaja> yes but i wanted to emulate a common pool of arguments to display here (sort of), but i suck
04:10:06 <Daemmerung> when rudybot answers "error: text-from-word: Bad code, I have a bug -- got: ()" what is he telling me?
04:12:11 <teurastaja> i know but does (display arguments) take a multiple arguments?
04:12:40 <teurastaja> s/a //
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04:13:22 <Daemmerung> teurastaja: `display' takes two arguments, a port and an object.  The oprt is optional.
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04:13:39 <jcowan> teurastaja: No, it doesn't, and no amount of messing with apply will make it do so.
04:13:44 <Daemmerung> s/oprt/port, s/object/value
04:17:49 <Daemmerung> jcowan: to where should one address feedback on Draft 3?
04:18:14 <jcowan> scheme-reports@scheme-reports.org is best.
04:18:22 <Daemmerung> (assuming that the feedback is substantive.  if I'm just going to fling carnations, I can fling them herein)
04:18:41 <Daemmerung> jcowan: Roger.
04:18:46 <jcowan> Substantive, editorial, or fulsome praise, send it all our way.  :-)
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04:52:59 <cky> jcowan: You can't set-cdr! in Racket by default but you can use SRFI 1's circular-list.
04:53:08 <cky> jcowan: Racket's implementation of that doesn't use set-cdr!.
04:53:30 <cky> rudybot: (require srfi/1)
04:53:31 <rudybot> cky: your sandbox is ready
04:53:31 <rudybot> cky: Done.
04:53:35 <jcowan> Surely it must do so under the covers.
04:53:37 <cky> rudybot: (display (circular-list 'nyah))
04:53:37 <rudybot> cky: ; stdout: "#0=(nyah . #0#)"
04:54:01 <cky> jcowan: No, it uses non-standard features to allow it to happen without set-cdr!.
04:54:09 <jcowan> Well, okay.
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05:24:27 <ski> rudybot: eval (shared ((a `(nyah . ,a))) a)
05:24:27 <rudybot> ski: ; Value: #0=(nyah . #0#)
05:27:30 <ski> rudybot: eval (shared ((a (append '(0 1) a))) a)
05:27:31 <rudybot> ski: ; Value: #0=(0 1 . #0#)
05:27:39 <ski> rudybot: eval (shared ((a (append a '(0 1) a))) a)
05:27:40 <rudybot> ski: error: append: expected argument of type <proper list>; given #<undefined>
05:27:54 <ski> rudybot: eval (let ((foo (lambda (t) (cons 0 (cons t t))))) (shared ((t (foo t))) t))
05:27:54 <rudybot> ski: ; Value: (0 #<undefined> . #<undefined>)
05:29:04 <ski> rudybot: eval (shared ((t (cons 0 (cons t t)))) t)
05:29:04 <rudybot> ski: ; Value: #0=(0 #0# . #0#)
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05:29:19 <ski> that's interesting
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06:58:17 <weirdo> rudybot, eval shared
06:58:17 <rudybot> weirdo: your sandbox is ready
06:58:18 <rudybot> weirdo: error: eval:1:0: shared: bad syntax in: shared
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09:57:22 <penryu> what's interesting is that, given a recursive implementation of a factorial function in both ruby and racket, ruby yields "stack level too deep" at n ~= 2900; whereas racket can compute at least as high as n == 100000 and the only limitation so far is time.
09:58:13 <wingo> yes i don't know what racket does, but it seems to support effectively unlimited stacks
09:58:22 <wingo> quite nice
09:58:40 <wingo> allows their map implementation to be written in the straightforward recursive way
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10:01:26 <penryu> hrm. seems mri ruby tops out at about 2900 levels. jruby can get up to ~7900.
10:02:49 <penryu> both rubies seem to have a variable depth stack. running fact(n) might fail once, but complete if executed again immediately after.
10:03:20 <penryu> don't know if that's just the ruby vm being "dynamic", or if there's some optimization happening. and honestly, I don't really care.
10:06:43 <antoszka> doesn't racket just tail-optimize the algorithm?
10:07:12 <antoszka> turning it into iteration effectively?
10:08:13 <penryu> well, I deliberately coded it in a non-tail-recursive method
10:08:34 <antoszka> i see
10:08:44 <penryu> but I'm sure it could be easily optimized by a good interpreter/compiler
10:08:55 <antoszka> maybe that's the case
10:09:37 <penryu> I was trying to test the relative stack depths, specifically. damn optimizing compilers.
10:12:02 <penryu> also, (trace factorial) shows an increasing stack depth
10:12:16 <penryu> so maybe it is just some magic stack management.
10:12:45 <penryu> anyway. bedtime.
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10:57:46 <ecraven> Riastradh: Does MIT Scheme include any profiling support?
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12:46:57 <Riastradh> ecraven, yes, there's a rudimentary statistical profiler: (with-stack-sampling <milliseconds-per-sample> (lambda () ...)).  I think I even documented it, but maybe I'm misremembering.
12:49:38 <ecraven> Thanks!
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16:09:41 <wingo> chirp
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16:14:27 <Daemmerung> *crickets*
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16:27:54 <ecraven> interesting, just implemented vsop87 calculation of orbital elements in mit-scheme, wasn't that hard.. ;) seems Scheme is good for number-crunching (even if not too fast)
16:29:28 <wingo> cool :)
16:29:36 <Daemmerung> ecraven: how mit-scheme specific was your code?
16:29:48 <wingo> still, i doubt I'll see an h.264 decoder in scheme any time soon :P
16:34:17 <pjb> Compiled with Stalin, you might get a faster decoder than those written in C...
16:36:09 <wingo> stalin is worthless for any practical programming.
16:36:14 <wingo> there, i said it!
16:37:15 <pjb> But it's very fast.  C is also worthless for any practical programming, but it's fast.
16:37:52 <wingo> you need to link a video decoder up to other software to actually show a video.  you can create re-usable objects in c and assembly.  you cannot in stalin.
16:38:18 <wingo> and it is r4rs!
16:38:27 <wingo> why do people even mention something that old? :)
16:39:28 <Daemmerung> seems to work for Siskind's video group.  me, I'd use Gambit.
16:39:38 <sjamaan> There's a Stalin egg for Chicken
16:39:42 <Daemmerung> or more likely, C
16:39:44 <sjamaan> I've always wondered about how that works
16:39:55 <wingo> siskind has a video group?
16:40:02 <wingo> maybe i'm just making stuff up
16:40:05 <sjamaan> I guess you can selectively compile code with Stalin and link it to other code compiled with Chicken
16:40:11 <Daemmerung> wingo: that's most of what Siskind does iirc
16:40:31 <Daemmerung> stalin egg consists of a single call to sleep(1e32)
16:40:44 <wingo> hehehe
16:42:22 <pjb> wingo: to motivate someone to upgrade it.
16:42:30 <wingo> bah
16:42:50 <pjb> And of course, once you have the decoder written  in scheme, you write the rest of the multimedia application in scheme.
16:44:01 <Daemmerung> wingo: oh, I misspoke.  shoudl have said /vision/ group.  not video.  my bad
16:44:22 <Daemmerung> not the same thing at all.  brain flatulence
16:46:01 <pjb> Daemmerung: I'm not sure it's not the same thing.   Once you know how vision work, you can design your video algorithms in consequence.
16:46:45 <pjb> Given a vision algorithm, you should be able to deduce automatically video compression algorithms.
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16:47:58 <wingo> bah
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16:49:17 <Daemmerung> that's cog-sci.  comp vision is robo navigation, pattern recognition, picking terrorists out of punk rock stage photographs etc.  different beast as i understand it.
16:49:58 <wingo> codec people use matlab for testing, then rewrite in c++.
16:50:05 <wingo> it is a terrible world.
16:50:11 <sjamaan> heh
16:50:17 <sjamaan> It's probably true, too
16:51:24 <wingo> vision people do that too, though i know some naive people using ocaml
16:51:51 <wingo> one fellow i know had to write a custom terrible ocaml bytecode -> c++ compiler just to get his work done :P
16:52:14 <sjamaan> heh
16:52:25 <Daemmerung> it's a wonderful world.
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18:35:15 <ecraven> Daemmerung: not very, mainly it's parsing the vsop87 data files and then some rather primitive math. i used hashtables for the data structures, these would be mit scheme specific (but easy to change)
18:35:30 <ecraven> and the 500 test cases, but those could probably be ported too
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18:42:25 <ecraven> I wish I understood MIT Scheme's "module system"
18:52:20 <Daemmerung> was more curious about the mathematical operations necessary; whether it used fixnum or machine-word specific ops, etc.
18:52:42 <Daemmerung> or if "generic" Scheme complex-number ops sufficed
19:06:33 <ecraven> floating point numbers it is
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19:41:10 <wingo> la la la
19:42:41 <ecraven> i don't understand fortran at all ;)
19:42:53 <ecraven> looks like column-aligned line noise
19:43:19 <wingo> the column alignment hasn't been obligatory since fortran 90, no?
19:43:54 <jcowan_> Correct.
19:43:55 <mario-goulart> I heard that the line noise is still obligatory.
19:44:03 <pjb> Who use Fortran 90?  99% of the code is written in Fortran IV.
19:44:03 <wingo> i have been fortran-free for 10 years now.  whee!!!
19:44:22 <pjb> I wrote an editor in Fortran as a student project on a Vax.
19:44:25 <wingo> http://wingolog.org/archives/2005/04/09/101 <- fortran programming style
19:44:25 <jcowan_> Okay, then it's time for the famous .... FORTRAN TRIVIA TEST!  Only one question!
19:44:27 <ecraven> the code i'm looking at definitely still has that.. it uses data formatted like this:   0  0 -1  5-12-70  3 12 ...
19:44:36 <ecraven> i don't think any other language makes it so easy to parse this ;)
19:45:05 <pjb> scanf
19:46:06 <wingo> jcowan_: i'm waiting :)
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19:46:46 <jcowan> As all Fortraneers remember, DO 10 I = 1, 10 iterates I from 1 to 10 (but executes its body at least once), and DO 10 I=1, 10, 2 iterates 1, 3, 5, 7, 9.
19:46:54 <jcowan> Now.  What does DO 10 I = 1 do?
19:47:05 <wingo> goto 10 ?
19:47:12 *wingo* doesn't know :)
19:47:15 <pjb> It assings 1 to DO10I.
19:47:17 <jcowan> Bzzzt, wrong!
19:47:28 <jcowan> pjb IS DA WINNAH
19:47:40 <wingo> wow that's great :-)
19:47:43 <pjb> Actually, it assigns 1.0
19:47:45 <mario-goulart> Awesome
19:47:48 <pjb> and notably DO 10 I = 1. 10  assigns 1.10 to DO10I.
19:47:50 <cky> That looks too much like ID10T. :-P
19:47:50 <jcowan> By default, yes.
19:47:59 <wingo> cky: hahaha :)
19:48:12 <pjb> That's what costs you rockets.
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19:49:17 <levi> I love Fortran Story Time!  Tell us another one! :)
19:50:26 <pjb> levi: have a look at http://informatimago.com/articles/flpl/index.html
19:50:38 <mario-goulart> Fortran dies in the end of the story.
19:50:44 <wingo> no, no, we want stories, about fortran paper
19:50:48 <wingo> i loved fortran paper
19:51:59 <jcowan> I found a paper called "Fortran trivia questions" but they are about "who said this?" rather than "what does this do?"
19:52:25 <levi> "Thoughout the remainder of this paper, it will be assumed that the reader is faimiliar with the FORTRAN compiling system for the IBM 704 Data Processing Machine"  I don't think this paper is for me.
19:52:41 <jcowan> I actually translated (or rather re-created) FLPL in C once.
19:53:50 <pjb> flpl is the first application of the Greenspun's Tenth Law.
19:53:59 <jcowan> Indeed.
19:55:50 <levi> Weird, it says the document was from 1959, but one of the references is dated 1960.
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19:56:28 <jcowan> Here's an example from Wikipedia
19:57:03 <jcowan> PROGRAMMING
19:57:03 <jcowan> REALITY
19:57:14 <jcowan> COMP LEX SPECIALIS
19:57:23 <jcowan>    I TY = 2
19:57:33 <jcowan> DOING=1,INT(I T Y)
19:57:44 <jcowan>   WR ITE(*,*) ING
19:57:50 <jcowan> E N D D O
19:57:51 <jcowan> END
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20:01:27 <jcowan> Weird Fortran statement types like the arithmetic IF and the assigned GO TO make for great examples of the power of Scheme syntax abstraction.
20:02:36 <pjb> levi: Well, there might be several releases of the papers.  Also, papers tend to be written AFTER the software.  But we know the software was done before March 1959, because that's when the AIM-8 paper is dated.
20:02:49 <pjb> http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html
20:03:38 <pjb> Obviously, it's often hard to find old papers, if you stay at home and only use the Internet.
20:04:32 <levi> Yeah.  I'm not prepared for the background research necessary to fully understand a paper from the late 50s right now.
20:05:15 <pjb> Well, there was nothing before.
20:05:16 <pjb> :-)
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20:07:59 <jcowan> I would say it's quite the opposite; those papers are easier to understand without context.
20:08:11 <jcowan> s/assigned GO TO/computed GO TO
20:08:39 <jcowan> I have not seen a syntax-rules for C's do-while statement (which like Fortran do, iterates at least once)
20:09:14 <pjb> that must be something like: do-while ::= 'do' <statement> 'while' '(' <expression> ')'
20:09:51 <jcowan> Just so.
20:10:08 <jcowan> I don't believe I've ever used this statement, or even seen it in code.
20:10:57 <pjb> It's often used in macros that have to be used like a statement.
20:11:02 <jcowan> Mmm, yes.
20:11:15 <jcowan> do { ...} while (0);
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20:23:45 <klutometis> ecraven: That's cool; I did something similar with the Standish approximations: <http://git.astroharmony.org/astroharmony/tree/kepler.scm>.
20:23:57 <klutometis> (Details here: <http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/txt/aprx_pos_planets.pdf>.)
20:24:18 <klutometis> Looks like VSOP87 is much more accurate.
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20:40:21 <penryu> Fortran-du
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22:09:01 <ecraven> klutometis: my main problem now is i need to convert these to geocentric coordinates (right ascension and declination), which isn't trivial
22:09:38 <ecraven> i'll try some more tomorrow. good night #scheme!
22:12:25 <klutometis> ecraven: What's the application, by the way?
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22:40:10 <klutometis> http://bostinnovation.com/2011/07/26/6-programming-languages-invented-in-the-hub/
22:40:10 <rudybot> http://tinyurl.com/3vg9xdt
22:40:17 <klutometis> Are there any other languages that you really need?
22:42:10 <jcowan> I would say that putting APL, C, or Scala on that list was an extreme stretch.
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22:42:40 <Daemmerung> No kidding.  Hypetastic.
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23:21:37 <klutometis> jcowan: Good point, actually; C was New Jersey, I take it; APL, New York; Scala, Lausanne.
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23:23:31 <jcowan> Fortran belongs on the New York list too, IIRC.
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23:45:45 <klutometis> Sorry; I know this belongs in #wtf, but: <http://static.springsource.org/spring/docs/2.5.x/api/org/springframework/aop/framework/AbstractSingletonProxyFactoryBean.html>.
23:45:45 <rudybot> http://tinyurl.com/3oa8qf3
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