00:02:30 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 00:06:32 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f768fdf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:06:41 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f7685a6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 00:09:37 zmv [~Telefonic@187.57.23.54] has joined #scheme 00:09:37 -!- DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-65-184.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:20:45 DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-65-184.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 00:21:50 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.57.23.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:22:57 dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 00:25:51 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-139-64.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:27:30 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-179-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:33:28 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:49:35 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:53:34 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-139-64.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:55:19 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-139-64.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:06:37 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:13:44 d2biG [p@bofh.edu.pl] has joined #scheme 01:13:47 -!- dRbiG [p@bofh.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:15:42 DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-105-105.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 01:16:11 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-151-140.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:16:17 Penten [~user@114.255.149.182] has joined #scheme 01:21:41 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:21:51 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:23:06 I'm attempting to install Racket 5.1.1 on a fresh Linux box from the .sh, and it SIGSEGVs. Anyone know what to do here? 01:34:40 Trying again with Racket 5.1 01:44:54 -!- eholk [~eholk@2620:101:8003:200:e2f8:47ff:fe3e:26e0] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:11:56 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 02:12:58 jcowan: Are you using Debian? I'd just as soon use the Debian packages. 02:15:21 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable020.240-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:20:01 I'm stuck on Karmic 02:25:52 jcowan: I noticed that ppa:plt/racket only goes to lucid, not karmic. However, you might be able to use that to build a karmic version. Maybe. 02:26:18 The shell script claims to be jaunty, so I'd expect it to work fine on karmic. 02:27:37 I assume that building from source is a fairly desperation move? 02:27:43 eholk [~eholk@2620:101:8003:200:e2f8:47ff:fe3e:26e0] has joined #scheme 02:34:41 -!- eholk [~eholk@2620:101:8003:200:e2f8:47ff:fe3e:26e0] has quit [Quit: eholk] 02:34:50 -!- tzhuang [~tzhuang@72.53.83.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:37:45 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:59:43 eholk [~eholk@63-235-13-3.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 03:06:09 jcowan: ulimit -d unlimited, and something else. 03:06:17 Ah, thanks. 03:06:45 It is weird. 03:17:26 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 03:17:31 Any schemers from christchurch here? 03:18:01 ain't cky one? 03:19:29 Aye but he's in the US now, sadly. 03:19:30 :( 03:19:47 He has been assimilated. Join usssssss. 03:19:56 Would if I could! 03:20:08 *jcowan* shakes his head. 03:20:21 Being in the U.S. is fine. Coming to the U.S. is a whole different story. 03:20:26 It might be more tempting, Daemmerung, if travelling to and from the US weren't so incredibly demeaning. 03:20:44 You should arrange a lend=lease kind of swap. I know a heck of a lot of Merkins who'd hump a stump to move to Kiwiville. 03:20:58 Lack of jorbs notwithstanding. 03:21:23 Job here is getting old... 03:21:25 :/ 03:21:31 still, it lets me live, so yay. 03:21:31 :) 03:21:35 What's up, guys, anywho? 03:21:37 What's the news? 03:21:37 :) 03:21:51 And the sheep appreciate you staying by their side. So it's all good. 03:21:52 R7RS draft 2 will be out soon, I hope. 03:21:55 *offby1* fidgets uncomfortably 03:22:12 Looks like we're set for some more rain, ayup. 03:22:18 *Daemmerung* spits 03:22:22 ayup 03:22:22 jcowan: I'll get to it this weekend. 03:22:37 I got stuck on writing SRFI 45 up. 03:22:42 I'm going away to a hot spring, but it's a 3-day weekend in Japan so I'll have all monday to work. 03:23:02 jcowan: Note, the item was just for `lazy', not all of SRFI-45. 03:23:46 But I can write that up. 03:23:51 Without SRFI 45 force, lazy means nothing. 03:24:40 Oh, yeah, I just meant we don't need `eager'. 03:26:20 If you don't have access to the mechanism of lazy/force, you can't write eager efficiently, as SRFI 45 notes. 03:26:41 I'll also review all of your changes. 03:26:46 Of course. 03:26:59 I think you should reconsider eager; it wasn't mentioned, but it wasn't excluded either. 03:27:13 And it would be nice if we could get a full review from a non-group member. 03:27:26 It certainly would. 03:27:36 *foof* eyes Riastradh 03:27:59 *Riastradh* foofs eye 03:28:03 Well, Clinger reviewed the first draft, but there are a lot of changes in the second draft. 03:28:11 jcowan: I think `eager' is trivial and not very useful. 03:28:12 "Semantically, writing (eager expression) is equivalent to writing 03:28:12 (let ((value expression)) (delay value)). 03:28:12 However, the former is more efficient since it does not require unnecessary creation and evaluation of thunks." 03:28:33 And we can always add eager later. 03:28:42 I don't like the name EAGER; it is more symmetric with LAZY than it is with DELAY. 03:29:08 Riastradh: You would prefer UNDELAYED? 03:29:10 I don't know whether it's useful, although I think its inclusion (though not its name) in SRFI 45 was my fault, so maybe I had an application for it at the time. 03:29:13 If you look at the definition of FORCE, you'll see that EAGER and LAZY are symmetric. 03:29:36 EAGER and LAZY are most certainly not symmetric. 03:29:46 EAGER maps a value to a promise. LAZY maps a promise to a promise. 03:30:18 foof, no, I don't have a better suggestion. 03:30:19 In short, both produce a promise of different kinds. True that EAGER is a procedure and LAZY syntax. 03:30:32 RIGHT-NOW-GOSH-DARNIT 03:31:05 EAGER and DELAY are interchangeable, barring non-termination. LAZY is not interchangeable with either. 03:35:18 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:38:02 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 03:40:50 mithridates [~mithridat@142.167.241.93] has joined #scheme 03:52:01 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 03:55:10 http://blog.regehr.org/archives/558 03:57:01 Yeeks. 03:57:05 Bug city. 03:57:34 0 is correct. 03:58:54 I actually didn't know globals were initialized to 0. 03:59:30 All objects with static storage are initialized by default as if by the expression 0. 03:59:33 Oh wait... that doesn't even matter. 03:59:58 (which is not necessarily the same as what you get by memsetting them to all bits zero) 04:00:05 It does matter. If it were uninitialized, the program would invoke undefined behaviour. 04:00:12 But s.f1 can only be 0 or 1. 04:00:23 Yeah. The portable assumption with 1-bit bitfields is that they are either zero or they aren't, but not to rely on the numerical value of the non-zero. 04:00:57 So if you moved the `struct S0 s' into main (without adding an explicit static storage specifier), then any output would be valid, including `Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!\n'. 04:02:06 You can see why the Go designers decided to give up on mixed-mode arithmetic, except that literals are semi-typeless. 04:03:29 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-139-64.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:04:02 jcowan: That surprises me - that's a special case for 1-bit bitfields? Is that noticeably easier to optimize? 04:04:53 I can't think offhand of any x86 instructions that would make it faster. 04:04:58 No, it's just a region where compilers are notably buggy. No, it's not a special case for 1-bit, the problem is just most visible there. 04:05:36 The trouble is that the UACs may give you a signed or an unsigned value, no matter what the bitfield claims to be. So the non-zero value of such a bitfield might get sign extended or might not. 04:06:24 So declare your bitfield neither signed nor unsigned, and explicitly cast it to unsigned. 04:06:39 ...or, don't use bit fields. 04:06:42 jcowan: did any of those compilers that got it wrong, give a warning perhaps? I did not notice them mentioning it in that article. 04:06:45 The compiler will make the bitfield signed or unsigned according to its prejudices. 04:06:49 That doesn't make sense. If I have a 3-bit field, are you saying that accessing it is not guaranteed to give me a result in the range [0, 7]? 04:07:11 Bit fields are basically a total botch in C. 04:07:13 Well, if you declare it as an unsigned bitfield and then apply the UACs, you will. 04:07:35 You can cast it to unsigned or add zero or something. 04:08:02 But I agree with Riastradh: bit fields are not really useful. If you need to match an external requirement, use masking. 04:11:18 Permitting mixed signed/unsigned arithmetic, or mixed fixed-width (int16_t, &c.) arithmetic, is also basically a total botch in C. 04:12:24 Hence, as I say, it's forbidden in Go. You have to insert explicit casts. 04:13:53 I would like to be able to express arithmetic in Z/nZ for arbitrary n, with the compiler detecting when I haven't minded my n's and m's. And it should be done with an elegant linguistic construct, not ad-hoc overloading and/or promotion rules like C or SML. But maybe I'd settle for a pony. 04:15:02 *jcowan* ships Riastradh a pony, complete with bag at each end. 04:15:02 (Nor formalized ad-hoc overloading like C++. What a botch that is too.) 04:16:05 Everything is a total botch! I give up. I'm going to bed. 04:17:33 *po<> 04:20:00 Well, lots of new botches are coming along, at least. 04:20:04 That makes for variety. 04:25:15 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:26:47 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 04:34:18 Riastradh: Come to Tokyo, I'll treat you to some pony sashimi! 04:42:21 Does any Scheme actually do implicit forcing that we know of? 04:42:50 (Excluding Lazy Scheme, which is not even close to conformant.) 04:46:55 jcowan: Chibi has a compile-time option for it. 04:47:04 Okay, I'll leave that in. 04:47:18 I'm removing the old force-delay implementation, which is no longer appropriate. 04:47:28 Right. 04:49:24 -!- DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-105-105.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:56:12 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:56:30 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 04:57:13 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:58:36 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-242.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 04:59:12 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 04:59:34 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:59:41 -!- fds [~frankie@fsf/member/fds] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:00:32 fds [~frankie@ajax.webvictim.net] has joined #scheme 05:03:10 ray_ [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 05:03:28 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:05 -!- ray_ [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:07:11 elderK1 [~k@202.68.91.198] has joined #scheme 05:07:41 elderK2 [~k@202.68.91.198] has joined #scheme 05:08:52 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 05:09:07 foof: I think the passage about "there may be no way in which a promise can be distinguished from its forced value" needs to go away too. SRFI 45 "force" has to be able to tell the difference. 05:10:19 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:10:26 ray_ [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 05:11:14 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:11:27 -!- elderK1 [~k@202.68.91.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:12:22 foof: lazy committed and pushed. 05:12:46 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:12:48 -!- elderK2 [~k@202.68.91.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:13:24 -!- ray_ [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:15:20 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 05:18:15 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:18:20 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 05:18:23 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 05:22:46 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:24:37 -!- mmc1 [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:24:46 -!- asumu [~at@c-24-63-27-157.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:25:12 asumu [~at@c-24-63-27-157.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:25:14 mmc1 [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 05:25:25 -!- Intensity [Y5DiSllsqR@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:25:45 dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #scheme 05:25:59 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:30:15 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 05:32:55 Intensity [3NQQAHCu6f@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #scheme 05:33:10 -!- dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen_] 05:35:44 -!- mithridates [~mithridat@142.167.241.93] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:36:46 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:39:12 mario-go` [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 05:39:25 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 05:39:26 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:41:19 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:45:07 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 05:47:30 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:50:20 -!- asumu [~at@c-24-63-27-157.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:54:37 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 05:55:39 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:56:07 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 05:59:28 ray_ [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 06:01:51 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:01:55 -!- ray_ [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:06:40 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 06:08:51 -!- eholk [~eholk@63-235-13-3.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: eholk] 06:17:51 -!- djcb [~djcb@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:44 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-242.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:36:35 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:38:57 -!- monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hello] 06:51:33 -!- mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:56:50 exeter [54fda812@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.253.168.18] has joined #scheme 06:57:01 infanticide [~tim@c-98-192-174-9.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:58:51 is scheme known to have problems with numeric stuff? 06:59:43 i'm getting inaccurate answers from Euler's Method for approximating D.E. solutions 06:59:59 1.000.000$ question: I've learned Haskell and heard about this LISP frenzy, so decided to learn scheme. What's a solid tutorial given this background? 07:00:49 exeter how comfortable are you with monads? (the state monad in particular) 07:01:15 im wondering if there was a relevant state monad tutorial that stood out to you 07:01:25 that i might find helpful? 07:04:33 infanticide: I think for most tasks the state monad is not extrememly useful. Error handling monads (maybe / either) are sooo much more common and useful. Still, if you want to learn it I suggest to: 07:05:42 1- read the state monad part in "learn you a haskell for greater good" 2- read the state monad part in "real world haskell" (in this book parts are more correlated, so you will prolly have to read some more chapters) 07:06:01 3- (most importantly), read the hackage description of the interface! 07:06:34 4- Mess with it to do some simple task and 5- post the code in #haskell they will for sure point out what's sensible and what's not 07:07:06 -!- infanticide [~tim@c-98-192-174-9.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:07:47 :S 07:15:37 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-80-192-44.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:21:35 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:21:52 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 07:40:45 ohwow- [mao@uh.wow.prettyru.de] has joined #scheme 07:58:02 wingo 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has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:38:08 Is there a good reason why I should use let/letrec instead of nested defines? 09:41:11 -!- zanea [~zanea@125-237-51-83.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:47:52 nested defines could be used only in the beginning of the definition 09:48:17 eg, you can't do: (define (test) (set! x 5) (define y 6) y) 09:49:20 zanea [~zanea@125-237-51-83.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 09:59:01 ohwow-: Ahh, ok, thats a restriction. 09:59:06 thanks 10:07:18 plus nested defines can do damage to top-level state, if i am not mistaking 10:07:52 What kind of damage? 10:08:12 I didn't think that internal defines affected the top-level. 10:08:30 Well, then I am mistaking 10:09:23 Well, I might be mistaken myself, which is why I wanted to check what you meant. :-) 10:12:08 -!- Penten [~user@114.255.149.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:12:24 -!- yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:12:40 yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 10:14:06 -!- moll [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:17:02 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 10:17:31 DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-105-105.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 10:21:52 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has left #scheme 10:36:52 mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 10:37:34 -!- mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:43:39 mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 10:47:54 moll [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 10:53:09 -!- mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:01:42 -!- mario-go` is now known as mario-goulart 11:08:56 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-167.cust.tele2.se] has left #scheme 11:10:19 mmc 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the net 11:34:28 ok, thanks! 11:38:23 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 11:43:51 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.240] has joined #scheme 11:46:27 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:46:40 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 11:47:24 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 11:51:06 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-167.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:55:29 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:58:19 -!- aoh [~aki@85.23.168.115] has quit [Quit: stitching servers] 11:59:23 aoh [~aki@85.23.168.123] has joined #scheme 12:04:44 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:07:57 -!- exeter [54fda812@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.253.168.18] has left #scheme 12:31:14 tab1ta [~tab1ta@host91-0-dynamic.245-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 12:32:22 -!- DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-105-105.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:35:51 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:51:09 -!- moll [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:52:11 -!- tab1ta [~tab1ta@host91-0-dynamic.245-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 12:58:23 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 13:08:33 moll [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 13:18:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 13:23:05 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-80-192-44.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:30:35 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-167.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 13:33:54 samth_away: small language is usually embeddable. 13:34:06 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-35-133.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:34:26 samth_away: e.g. I embedded Forth in various, to simplify, telephony software. 13:34:32 grettke [~grettke@cpe-65-30-30-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:34:55 samth_away: if it requires 512 MB, I can't embed it. 13:36:27 512MB in memory terms is not really that big, well on PC/servers anyways, nowadays 13:36:35 my cellphone has 768MB RAM 13:36:56 leppie: Are you on a Windows 7 Smartphone? 13:37:14 hey grettke, nope, Android, HTC Desire HD 13:37:55 leppie: there're applications where there exists a need to save memory. 13:38:18 DGASAU: I agree 13:38:25 Also, even in android terms, 13:38:31 convinience vs constraints 13:38:39 512 MB _increase_ is significant. 13:39:25 The impact of overflowing address space is too harsh not to consider. 13:39:52 But 512MB is not big for an image buffer, well on a cell phone it is 13:40:13 You forget that it isn't overall memory requirement, 13:40:21 it is _increase_ in requirement. 13:40:37 i know 13:40:42 :) 13:41:17 512MB for runtime overhead would be bad 13:41:19 If application requires 1,5GB for its data, 13:41:40 zmv [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 13:41:44 then 512MB increase can break it. 13:42:08 2GB may overflow address space available to the said application. 13:45:26 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 13:49:53 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-40-153.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 13:52:07 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:53:08 choas [~lars@p5792C0CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 14:01:48 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-208-68.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:01:55 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:08:14 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:12:26 -!- Leonidas [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:12:31 Leonidas [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 14:12:38 genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has joined #scheme 14:18:46 -!- mads- [~mar@pdpc/supporter/active/mads-] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:20:19 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 14:21:11 -!- Leonidas [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:21:48 Leonidas [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 14:28:23 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 14:28:51 teurastaja [~samuel@modemcable072.213-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 14:31:43 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.66] has joined #scheme 14:31:43 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.66] has quit [Changing host] 14:31:43 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 14:32:13 -!- grettke [~grettke@cpe-65-30-30-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:37:23 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-83-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:40:34 DGASAU: small implementations are embeddable, small reports less so 14:40:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:45 leppie 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[~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 15:54:46 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:54:56 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 15:56:14 -!- nteon [~nteon@204.28.122.186] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:58 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:07:16 -!- fds [~frankie@ajax.webvictim.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:07:16 fds [~frankie@fsf/member/fds] has joined #scheme 16:13:16 zmv_ [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 16:13:39 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:13:58 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 16:21:01 asumu [~at@c-24-63-27-157.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:28:21 -!- weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:28:39 weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 16:28:52 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-242.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:35:07 zmv_ [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 16:38:11 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:41:36 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:43:31 -!- weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:48:49 This is classic, by the way: "Control stack exhausted. This is probably due to . . . a tail call that SBCL cannot or has not optimized away." 16:48:52 weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 16:49:18 Oooh: there are tail calls that SBCL "does not" optimize away, even if it could. Is this some sort of gentlemanly valour? 16:50:21 -!- mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:50:24 moll [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 16:51:29 klutometis: Many CL implementations only do tail call optimisation if explicitly requested, e.g., by upping an optimisation level sufficiently high. 16:51:42 cky: Ah, interesting. 16:52:13 -!- mmc1 [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:52:50 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 16:53:26 -!- weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:54:50 zmv_ [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 16:55:18 foof: ping! 16:55:38 -!- slembcke [~slembcke@98.240.188.43] has left #scheme 16:55:43 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-170-126.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:56:14 klutometis: tail call elimination is stupid. 16:56:37 klutometis: it makes debugging problematic. 16:56:58 klutometis: and, if you mean to loop, write loop. 16:58:02 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-208-68.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:58:21 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:59:05 weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 17:02:35 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 17:03:02 foof: in fmt-0.6, (fmt #f (c= 'a `(,(c-cast 'ffkn_t 'f) 1))) 17:03:22 yields a = (ffkn_t)f(1); 17:03:52 e.g. missing parameters 17:04:16 foof: i've noticed that, enough so that it seems like the draft could be phrased as restrictions to R6RS rather than ignoring it as it currently does 17:04:45 sorry missing parenthesis! 17:07:44 DGASAU: That's a very ignorant way of looking at things if you come from a Scheme background. 17:08:18 DGASAU: Scheme doesn't have any primitive constructs that specifically perform looping. All standard looping is done using tail recursion. 17:08:46 cky: you won't believe it, but CL doesn't have any primitive constructs that perform looping either. 17:08:55 DGASAU: CL has GO. Scheme doesn't. 17:09:09 Scheme has continuations, which is worse. 17:09:21 DGASAU: Nobody uses continuations for standard looping. 17:09:24 That's _way_ overkill. 17:09:56 Just like CL has mini-DSL for looping, Scheme could do as well. 17:10:03 The standard way to perform looping in Scheme is with tail recursion, which is why Scheme implementations are _required_ to implement proper tail calls. 17:10:09 Or are Scheme macros so weak? 17:10:21 DGASAU: Are you trolling? 17:10:26 :p 17:10:50 DGASAU: There is in fact a looping "mini-DSL" (as you call it); it's called foof-loop. 17:10:55 Can you stop trolling DGASAU? 17:11:07 DGASAU: But guess what! Behind the scenes, it still uses tail recursion. 17:11:26 Chicken alone has foof-loop, loopy-loop, loop, fast-loop and loops 17:11:29 Oooh: there are tail calls that SBCL "does not" optimize away, even if it could. Is this some sort of gentlemanly valour? 17:11:42 Idiomatic way to do loops in CL is LOOP. 17:12:04 DGASAU: Yes, a CLer knows that. However, this is not #lisp. Not everybody here is expected to know CL. 17:12:36 sjamaan: Wow. Quite a collection. 17:12:36 Idiomatic way to debug is get backtrace rather than few recent function calls (like in Chicken). 17:12:52 cky: And I forgot the comprehensions libraries 17:12:57 :-O 17:13:10 list-of and srfi-42 17:13:43 -!- d2biG is now known as dRbiG 17:13:53 miscmacros has a few looping constructs too 17:14:19 And Scheme itself has "do" 17:15:17 zmv [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 17:16:26 -!- stamourv [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:16:43 stamourv [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:16:52 Of course what DGASAU refuses to understand is that Schemers generally don't *like* those crusty complicated looping macros (except as an exercise for learning macros, that is... :P) 17:17:14 Named let is more than enough 17:17:37 I have a feeling that most schemers don't even use `do' 17:18:21 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-170-126.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:18:22 yeah, it has annoying syntax 17:18:31 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:18:47 That's why "loop" exists. 17:19:05 yeah, it has annoying syntax 17:19:09 :) 17:19:19 fortunately, there are lots of better loop macros in various schemes 17:19:21 I like: for-each, map, fold, unfold. 17:19:34 Those are better than any macro 17:19:44 :-) 17:19:53 -!- AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable020.240-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:24:50 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-170-126.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:26:29 Hmm, how do I get a trace of the iterations of a LOOP in Common Lisp? 17:26:48 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-40-153.gmavt.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:26:55 I can do that in a Scheme loop just by wrapping (values ...) around the recursive call... 17:30:41 r2q2 [~user@c-67-173-107-90.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:31:03 elly: Do you mind if I use my lecture that I gave a few days ago in a blog post? I wouldn't use your name of course. 17:32:23 Riastradh: https://twitter.com/#!/littlecalculist/status/91485404318007296 17:34:54 zmv_ [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 17:38:21 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:42:21 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-52-179.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 17:43:39 r2q2: I fail to see what elly has to do with it. It's Your lecture, You gave it, it's Your blog. Why should you use elly's name? Why should you ask him not to use his name? 17:43:44 *pjb* very puzzled. 17:44:31 pjb: Uh, I gave the lecture here and she asked a bunch of questions 17:44:48 pjb: I don't know I am unsure about doing this and I just don't want to offend her. 17:45:11 pjb: It was done in the socratic method 17:45:21 Maybe I will just rewrite her answers. 17:45:40 pjb: elly is a she 17:45:41 Oh, so you want to blog about the post-lecture questions. Ok. 17:50:28 mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 17:55:32 zmv [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 17:58:41 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:59:15 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-151-140.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 17:59:39 eholk [~eholk@2620:101:8003:200:e2f8:47ff:fe3e:26e0] has joined #scheme 17:59:43 djcb [~djcb@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 18:00:14 -!- djcb [~djcb@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 18:00:53 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 18:01:03 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:01:55 zmv [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 18:04:07 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-96-250-3-60.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:44 kniu [~kniu@pool-96-250-3-60.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:16:09 zmv_ [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 18:16:35 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F75C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:19:12 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:24:04 pera [~arpe@186.136.124.175] has joined #scheme 18:37:36 zmv [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 18:40:43 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:46:53 "crusty" nails it. 18:50:48 r2q2: go for it if you want 18:50:54 pjb: yeah, I'm a she :) 18:54:04 phao [phao@187.1.235.217] has joined #scheme 18:55:06 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-83-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:56:24 -!- moll [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:57:02 zmv_ [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 18:59:41 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:01:33 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@189-47-123-104.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:03:30 mithridates [~mithridat@142.167.241.93] has joined #scheme 19:10:22 -!- phao [phao@187.1.235.217] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:12:38 tupi_ [~david@139.82.60.86] has joined #scheme 19:15:08 -!- eholk [~eholk@2620:101:8003:200:e2f8:47ff:fe3e:26e0] has quit [Quit: eholk] 19:17:14 -!- tupi_ [~david@139.82.60.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:42:56 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:51:49 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:57:43 ffs [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has joined #scheme 20:00:30 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:56 copumpkin [~pumpkin@gw1.mcgraw-hill.com] has joined #scheme 20:00:56 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@gw1.mcgraw-hill.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:00:56 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 20:01:18 -!- r2q2 [~user@c-67-173-107-90.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:50 pumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.66] has joined #scheme 20:02:50 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.66] has quit [Changing host] 20:02:50 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 20:05:33 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:10:43 -!- pera [~arpe@186.136.124.175] has left #scheme 20:12:17 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:53 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.66] has joined #scheme 20:12:54 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.66] has quit [Changing host] 20:12:54 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 20:19:39 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-16-6.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:35 Riastradh: do you mean "collect"? 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So to base it on R6RS we'd have to describe it as exceptions to restrictions, or say that "although R6RS requires an error to be signalled here, we simply leave the behavior undefined." 23:59:15 Obfuscate` [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 23:59:28 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:59:42 It would just be too awkward.