00:00:03 dylukes: yes, but define binds a value to a symbol, the symbol is square the value is a lambda. 00:00:38 dylukes: it doesn't matter what you imagine if the mechanics are known. 00:00:49 mmk, so scheme automatically makes defines that aren't bound to values or procedurals lambdas? 00:00:58 or does it just *always* wrap them in lambdas? 00:01:28 rudybot, (syntax->datum (expand-once #'(define x 10))) 00:01:29 dylukes: your sandbox is ready 00:01:29 dylukes: ; Value: (define x 10) 00:01:34 (define (name . args) body ...) always expands to (define name (lambda args body ...)). 00:01:50 (define name value) binds name to value. 00:01:58 Ah I see. 00:02:24 So define expands until its of the form (define name "something") 00:02:38 okay, thanks. I'm a bit new to scheme , thanks for the information. 00:02:45 right: 00:02:51 rudybot, (define ((f x) y) (+ x y)) 00:02:51 DT``: Done. 00:02:56 rudybot, ((f 2) 3) 00:02:56 DT``: ; Value: 5 00:03:13 which is just (define f (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y] 00:03:15 oh that's cool. 00:03:16 Yeah, I found a nice define-syntax that curries lambdas. 00:03:58 dylukes pasted "Currying" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123212 00:04:04 i've been avoiding using the syntactic sugar for define so long i didn't remember you could do that. 00:04:28 This is a pretty slick syntax definition I think. 00:04:33 Much nicer than any of the others I've found. 00:04:38 (plus this one actually makes sense) 00:05:34 Ooh. That's some nice highlighting! 00:06:06 Any way I can get that (or something similar) into my emacs mode? I'm just using Quack. 00:09:27 -!- dylukes [~revenantp@pool-108-17-125-138.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dylukes] 00:11:12 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:24:25 -!- infanticide [~tim@c-98-192-174-9.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:28:36 kernelpanicker [~user@unaffiliated/kernelpanicker] has joined #scheme 00:28:57 -!- kernelpanicker [~user@unaffiliated/kernelpanicker] has quit [Client Quit] 00:29:40 kernelpanicker [~bob@unaffiliated/kernelpanicker] has joined #scheme 00:34:52 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-207-34.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:58:00 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 00:58:11 -!- kernelpanicker [~bob@unaffiliated/kernelpanicker] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:10:43 DrDuck [~duck@207.157.71.30] has joined #scheme 01:12:54 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:14:19 Penten [~user@114.255.149.182] has joined #scheme 01:17:51 dnolen_ [~davidnole@pool-68-161-137-73.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:18:41 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:18:46 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #scheme 01:22:18 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Client Quit] 01:27:56 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #scheme 01:37:52 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:42:33 -!- eholk [~eholk@nat/mozilla/x-xmebygpyzqwhbspr] has quit [Quit: eholk] 01:46:34 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:46:40 ping 01:47:54 -!- dnolen_ [~davidnole@pool-68-161-137-73.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen_] 01:49:05 pong 01:49:51 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 02:00:46 -!- DrDuck [~duck@207.157.71.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:03:07 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:24:09 yo kilimanjaro whats up 02:25:57 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:28:50 ffs [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has joined #scheme 02:37:06 I'm trying to submit something to the Google AI Challenge with Scheme: . 02:38:00 I find myself in a difficult position again; if I want Scheme-masquerading-as-C, my choices seem to be: compile e.g. Chicken on the server from scratch; upload e.g. binary Chicken libraries to compile against; or use Chibi. 02:38:43 Anyone have a different idea? There's Scheme-masquerading-as-Java (SISC); good ol' SBCL; Scheme-masquerading-as-JavaScript; etc. 02:41:05 I love Chibi; but ran into segfaults and performance issues last time I tried to use it with the Facebook puzzles (six to eight months ago). 02:41:17 They frown on uploading binaries, of course. 02:49:50 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #scheme 02:55:43 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-177-247-249.range86-177.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:02:16 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #scheme 03:12:42 -!- rgrinberg__ [~rgrinberg@66.49.149.80] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:14:15 DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-58-65.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 03:16:16 Chicken would be my call, just because you're tight with it from previous experience. Perhaps I don't understand the problem. 03:19:01 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:27:03 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:29:49 klutometis: segfaults will be significantly more rare in 0.4 03:31:02 performance is the same :) 03:33:17 Daemmerung: The problem is that compiling Chicken at the start of the competition might be prohibitively long (i.e. I might get disqualified for a long compilation time). 03:33:23 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 03:33:49 foof: Oh, nice; it's in the running, then. I figure I can drop down into C for performance-sensitive loops. 03:34:07 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 03:41:37 eholk [~eholk@63-235-13-3.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 03:42:17 r11t [~r11t@ec2-50-18-44-29.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 03:48:09 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:51:16 If you do find a segfault, please file a bug report. 04:04:18 rgee [~rgrinberg@66.49.149.80] has joined #scheme 04:11:14 -!- r2q2 [~user@c-67-173-107-90.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:12:57 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: "The Enrichment Center would like to remind you that android hell is a real place, and you will be sent there at the first sign of defiance."] 04:38:46 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 04:45:12 -!- yell0 [yello@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:45:44 siloxid [~user@unaffiliated/siloxid] has joined #scheme 04:50:10 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:03:15 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 05:04:25 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 05:08:43 Scheme-masquerading-as-C? Either I don't understand, either you can use gambit and compile to C, can't you? 05:14:15 klutometis: i assume you are just trying to target one of he languages mentioned in the AI challenge. 05:15:09 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 05:15:33 tali713: Exactly. 05:15:50 Axioplase_: The problem is, there's no Gambit (or Chicken for that matter) on the game server. 05:16:04 Due to time constraints, you can't compile them from scratch. 05:16:58 And if you submit C as the result from compiling either Chicken and Gambit; you need to link against the {Chicken,Gambit}-libraries, don't you? 05:17:18 s/compiling/compiling it with/ 05:17:44 klutometis: both allow compiling static binaries, but it's a little hairy and the resulting executable is HUGE 05:18:23 foof: Right; and then I have to target the server's architecture. I'm not sure there are guarantees with regard to the server's architecture. 05:19:17 klutometis: i hate to suggest this, but you might want to consider just using common lisp. it isn't scheme, of course. 05:19:51 tali713: Indeed; SBCL, SISC, Clojure or Chibi look like the only viable solutions. 05:20:18 But it's amazing how often these game competitions come up, and how often they lack Scheme as a supported language; I would love to find a general solution to this problem. 05:33:31 klutometis: yes, you'd have to link to gambit. I thought it provided a full .c/h set that you can pass around to fake "100% portable C code" restrictions when you can't have your .so or .a with you. 05:34:14 Why would they support Scheme? It's a toy for freshmen! 05:34:16 *Axioplase_* grins 05:37:50 -!- DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-58-65.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:45:48 Axioplase_: Yeah, no shit; in that sense, though, these competitions are toys, too. I'll applaud them for including Lisp, though; last year's winner did it in Lisp. 05:47:01 Well, getting first place of such a toy competition may be nice on your resumé 05:50:29 dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 05:51:13 -!- mithridates [~mithridat@142.167.229.211] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:56:36 foof: Neither irregex nor srfi 13 work out-of-the-box in chibi, do they? 06:05:28 copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 06:05:28 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 06:05:28 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 06:07:07 irregex works out of the box in everything 06:08:10 I haven't tried to load srfi-13... I've got a 1/2 written string-lib replacement for chibi that handles utf8 strings efficiently. 06:10:12 -!- dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen_] 06:12:45 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:19:06 -!- ffs [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has quit [Quit: Bring me -- What is it that I desire? I forget. Ah! ah! I remember.] 06:19:59 -!- mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:21:59 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|fkn_away_nick 06:27:36 (note if you're using hg current irregex head is broken, you need to back up to rev 59) 06:35:47 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-145.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:37:27 -!- monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hello] 06:38:58 foof: Oh, ok; I had just reverted to 0.8.1. 06:44:55 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:47:32 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:03:03 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-145.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:08:35 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 07:12:32 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:40:13 siloxid` [~user@184-76-24-220.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #scheme 07:40:38 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 07:42:01 -!- siloxid [~user@unaffiliated/siloxid] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:44:31 siloxid`` [~user@184-76-24-220.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #scheme 07:46:14 -!- siloxid` [~user@184-76-24-220.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:47:46 mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 07:50:16 -!- mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:50:16 rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 07:50:29 mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 07:50:57 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 07:51:10 -!- siloxid`` [~user@184-76-24-220.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:56:41 I ask this every once and a while, but never get a satisfactory answer: what do people use for multi-dimensional arrays in Scheme: vectors of vectors, srfi-25? 07:56:54 s/once and a while/once in a while/ 07:58:14 guile has multidimensional arrays, so i would use that; but few people use them 07:58:26 fwiw, for one impl 07:58:44 i believe that code comes from scm 08:01:14 wingo: I need something for Chibi; I wonder what the performance characteristics are for the reference implementation of srfi-25. 08:01:22 Only one way to find out, I guess. 08:03:04 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:08:14 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 08:11:05 -!- eholk [~eholk@63-235-13-3.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: eholk] 08:16:33 klutometis: Slow! All Scheme array implementations are slow. 08:17:23 Use a flat vector and code the 2D translations yourself, if possible using macros and hard-coded dimensions. 15:26:56 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 15:26:56 15:26:56 -!- names: ccl-logbot tupi smtlaissezfaire_ sajith tab1ta mmc leppie copumpkin Riastradh d2biG genieliu tauntaun bgs100 lusory_ dsmith preflex pygospa mads- masm z0d gravicappa araujo misterncw kennyd alaricsp_ ada2358_ jeff___ sjamaan rstandy wingo eli rgee r11t Oddity Nisstyre pchrist_ incubot pothos peterhil REPLeffect chturne Pepe_ blueadept nteon phax thoolihan arbscht Axioplase_ poucet clog Adrinael gnomon kniu ToxicFrog dfeuer yosafbridge docgnome` 15:26:56 -!- names: ec|fkn_away_nick tessier_ ASau` ray cataska nowhereman PreciousMetals takamoron Daemmerung Hal9k EarlGray X-Scale un|certainty acarrico aehrisch eno wilx ve penryu amoe XTL DT`` alfa_y_omega vk0 specbot minion lisppaste sloyd Nshag quiccker stepnem evhan dnolen mmc1 levi samth dsp_ em Obfuscate Khisanth zanea_ bzzbzz cmatei ski pjb Euthydemus fbs danking moll_ aoh ineiros Leonidas rotty ivartj_ shardz DerGuteMoritz finnrobi elly rudybot DGASAU snorble 15:26:56 -!- names: askhader twem2 cky daedric mornfall duncanm futilius mario-goulart _p4bl0 joast C-Keen elflng snarkyboojum jimrees_ Quetzalcoatl_ tali713 augiedoggie Intensity gabot rapacity ecraven kanru xale cbrannon stchang micro xian weinholt zbigniew felipe sir_lewk klutometis kandinski fds tonyg Zol aking foof stamourv cipher ozzloy offby1 erg kba tizoc inimino 15:46:57 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:54:11 -!- smtlaissezfaire_ is now known as smtlaissezfaire 16:02:48 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 16:03:11 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:05:31 parolang [~parolang@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 16:06:26 -!- docgnome` is now known as docgnome 16:06:57 smtlaissezfaire_ [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 16:09:53 tom_i [~thomasing@cmc.beaming.biz] has joined #scheme 16:10:00 stis [~AndChat@host-90-232-16-23.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 16:11:10 Where can I find the TextMate bundle for Scheme? 16:11:30 http://svn.textmate.org/trunk/Bundles/Scheme.tmbundle 16:11:50 Doesn't appear to be working 16:18:07 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 16:19:07 -!- mads- [~mar@pdpc/supporter/active/mads-] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:21:00 Found it on GitHub :-) 16:25:00 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:25:27 realitygrill [~realitygr@38.104.194.118] has joined #scheme 16:26:35 -!- smtlaissezfaire_ [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire_] 16:27:52 eli: ffi-lib: couldn't open "libcairo.so.2" (Cannot dlopen non-loadable /usr/lib/libpthread.so.1) 16:28:18 eli: if you want to use pthreads, you should link against it. 16:28:55 eli: that includes indirect usage, i.e. if you dlopen 16:28:56 library that uses pthreads, you should have linked against 16:28:56 pthreads already. 16:31:06 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@cmc.beaming.biz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:37:19 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:37:27 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-133-116.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:39:11 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-220-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:48:40 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:31 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 16:55:36 Quite a few racket builds are already linked against pthreads. That's a pretty piss-poor bug report. 16:57:05 When I'm reading the code, I don't see that it is linked at all. 16:58:18 read the makefiles. 16:58:51 (and sorry to be so cranky this morning) 16:59:52 yell0 [yello@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 17:01:56 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has joined #scheme 17:02:47 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 17:02:56 wisey [~Steven@host86-177-247-249.range86-177.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:04:06 drdo [~drdo@93.108.205.91] has joined #scheme 17:08:16 tali713 [~user@c-66-41-158-119.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:10:06 -!- sajith [~sajith@c-98-223-198-123.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:10:24 masm [~masm@bl15-133-116.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 17:14:05 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:15:22 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has joined #scheme 17:15:30 -!- drdo [~drdo@93.108.205.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:21:08 cd__mob [~carld@76.177.215.56] has joined #scheme 17:28:41 choas [~lars@p5792CCAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:28:55 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 17:31:01 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has joined #scheme 17:34:04 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:15 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:39:03 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 17:42:35 HG` [~HG@p579F7C8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:42:47 tali713` [~tali713@c-75-72-220-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:45:57 -!- tali713 [~user@c-66-41-158-119.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:58 -!- tali713` is now known as tali713 17:47:40 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-220-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:47:48 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-220-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:47:51 -!- un|certainty is now known as certainty 17:48:13 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-220-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:48:18 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-220-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:48:33 eholk [~eholk@2620:101:8003:200:e2f8:47ff:fe3e:26e0] has joined #scheme 17:50:51 *tauntaun* think, Wouldn't it be nice to have a mail transfer agent implemented in Scheme? 17:51:26 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has joined #scheme 17:51:31 tauntaun: http://code.google.com/p/hato/ 17:52:34 You ask, we serve 17:52:45 *tauntaun* is impressed. 17:53:45 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:55:53 carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:56:03 Does it do virtual servers? A search for 'virtual' in the docs seems to suggest only aliases. 17:56:14 do you mean "nice to have a non-C implementation" or "nice to have an implemention with an extensible language" 17:57:15 *tauntaun* meant virtual hosts. 17:57:38 jonrafkind: I mean Scheme, nothing more, nothing less. 17:57:52 well ok, but why do you care? 17:58:09 ?! 17:58:56 mithridates [~mithridat@142.167.229.211] has joined #scheme 17:59:47 It'd be nice to have a pure-Scheme implementation but...let's just say that you'd have to use a Scheme implementation that notifies you when you run out of memory, and lets you handle it gracefully. 18:00:07 Then you can run your MTA under ulimits, as anyone should. 18:04:52 Anyone have experience with MeTA1, sendmail successor? (Please ignore if this is too off-topic.) 18:06:39 monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:12:22 -!- d2biG is now known as dRbiG 18:14:24 -!- quiccker [~quiccker@212.174.109.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:27 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:15:05 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:55 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has joined #scheme 18:16:09 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #scheme 18:16:27 I've been using postfix for the past 10 years or so 18:17:19 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 18:19:57 kytibe [~kytibe@212.174.109.55] has joined #scheme 18:26:15 -!- choas [~lars@p5792CCAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:34:46 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:36:00 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has joined #scheme 18:40:23 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:41:00 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfc5fa.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:41:15 monqy_ [~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:42:01 -!- monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:42:04 -!- monqy_ is now known as monqy 18:42:22 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f769390.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 18:42:31 wisey7 [~Steven@host86-147-31-167.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 18:44:43 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-177-247-249.range86-177.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:49:54 choas [~lars@p5792CCAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:50:11 -!- augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Bye] 18:51:01 zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has joined #scheme 18:51:57 -!- tab1ta [~tab1ta@80.180.183.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:53:34 augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 18:54:36 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:10:42 -!- mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:10:46 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has joined #scheme 19:10:49 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f769390.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:10:58 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfc357.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 19:11:33 -!- zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:14:11 -!- zmv_ [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:17:08 sajith [~sajith@140-182-144-61.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 19:20:13 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:15 -!- ec|fkn_away_nick is now known as elliottcable 19:20:48 -!- eholk [~eholk@2620:101:8003:200:e2f8:47ff:fe3e:26e0] has quit [Quit: eholk] 19:25:47 -!- cd__mob [~carld@76.177.215.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:26:11 mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 19:35:13 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:35:38 shachaf [~shachaf@204.109.63.130] has joined #scheme 19:41:34 cd__mob [~carld@76.177.215.56] has joined #scheme 19:46:22 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable020.240-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 19:49:24 -!- mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:52:30 If I needed to maintain or modify a MTA, it would be nice if the MTA were in Scheme. Not that I ever want to touch mail again. 19:54:40 mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 20:02:46 Y'know, I wish I know where to get CHEEEAP tickets to Boston, so I could attend the Racket conference. 20:03:14 The cheapest tickets I've seen are >$200, and I'm hoping for something closer to $100. 20:03:14 cky: Apparently it'll be videorecorded, if that's any consolation. 20:03:20 :-) 20:08:25 Does anybody else find it very natural to write Scheme using pencil and a 20:08:32 paper* 20:08:55 *sjamaan* used to find it so while working through The Little Schemer 20:09:26 That's where I started 20:09:54 *mario-goulart* prefers a keyboard 20:10:08 I thought you preferred the (bass)guitar? 20:10:26 :-D 20:14:02 tom_i: yes. 20:15:31 I wouldn't dream of doing it in C-like languages 20:15:46 :-) 20:17:36 Night all 20:20:40 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:20:52 Actually, my only experience of pencil and paper programming was javascript, but I'm definitely not inclined to do it again. 20:21:44 Typing "return x;" all the time is annoying 20:21:50 Writing it down would be hell 20:22:30 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:22:42 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-145-74.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:22:43 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-145-74.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:22:43 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 20:25:30 asumu [~at@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 20:26:03 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:29:53 sjamaan: m4!! 20:30:07 S-exprs on pencil and paper is nice: especially when you leave out the parentheses; it becomes a pre-order pseudocode that way. 20:36:39 eholk [~eholk@nat/mozilla/x-seblovryjktcagtk] has joined #scheme 20:42:27 -!- choas [~lars@p5792CCAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:43:12 The good part is that the paper won't parse your code. 20:44:31 DGASAU: Something else is wrong; if it was an issue of the code not being linked against pthreads then there would have been hoards of failures. 20:44:45 cky: I thought you were in NZ, no? 20:45:23 eli, the problem is loading libpthread.so at run-time. 20:46:44 On NetBSD (and probably some other systems too -- but NetBSD detects this and fails noisily), if you want libpthread.so in your address space, you must be linked against it from the start; you cannot decide to load it in the middle of execution, even if only to satisfy a dependency of the shared object you're directly trying to load. 20:46:47 Riastradh: IIUC, DGASAU claims that we're loading it at runtime which doesn't work (or maybe that we don't link against it at all) -- but that would mean universal failures for everyone. 20:47:36 So it seems that something else is wrong -- obviously related to pthreads, but specific to DGASAU's seup. 20:48:27 Here's what is happening: racket is not linked against libpthread.so. libcairo.so is linked against libpthread.so. racket dlopens libcairo.so which requires loading libpthread.so which is not allowed. 20:48:35 eli: no, it isn't specific to my setup. 20:49:17 eli: We fixed a similar bug recently with Chicken 20:49:57 It doesn't crop up early because not *that* much turns out to be linked against libpthread 20:49:58 -!- mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:50:14 (at least not that many libs that are interesting to call from Scheme) 20:50:33 ASau`: The number of people who use Racket's gui per day is >1. 20:51:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:51:06 mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 20:51:08 What is the number of people usinng Racket on NetBSD, if it isn't shipped with packages? 20:51:38 And, ThereYouGo. 20:51:46 Is Racket loading the GUI library dynamically using dlopen(), or is it linked against the lib? 20:52:03 I doubt it is linked against it. 20:52:13 BTW, on another system I get this: 20:52:15 JIT buffer overflow: 0x7f7ffdff59e6 [0x7f7ffdff2020,0x7f7ffdff59e0] (1)!! 20:52:15 20:52:26 Core dumped and the rest. 20:52:34 sjamaan: Dynamically, and it is linked. 20:52:56 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:53:01 Hm. 20:53:07 I wonder if I can work it around just to check. 20:53:21 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 20:53:21 ASau`: In the build log of a few setups I see: "gcc ... -g -O2 -Wall -pthread ..." 20:53:28 If it's linked directly it won't cause an error 20:53:40 If it's linked against libpthread.so, then `ldd /path/to/racket' should list libpthread.so; does it? (I don't have Racket handy to test.) 20:53:51 -!- parolang [~parolang@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:54:08 /usr/pkg/bin/racket: 20:54:08 -lm.0 => /usr/lib/libm.so.0 20:54:09 -lc.12 => /usr/lib/libc.so.12 20:54:18 (I don't see any mention of pthread in lang/racket in pkgsrc, so I suspect it doesn't for ASau`.) 20:54:32 It isn't linked, obviously. 20:54:36 In my binary: libpthread.so.0 => /lib64/libpthread.so.0 (0x0000003d13e00000) 20:54:53 So, like I said, it's something specific, which probably went wrong in the build. 20:54:55 Alright, lets' rebuild and enforce pthreads. 20:55:21 Hm. 20:55:28 ASau`: (Re that JIT problem that manages to be an even less useful report.) 20:55:59 eli: it is on remote machine, I can bring it in a bit. 20:56:14 ASau`, it should suffice to add `PTHREAD_AUTO_VARS= yes' and `.include "../../mk/pthread.buildlink3.mk"' to lang/racket/Makefile, then. 20:57:04 I can't rebuild it on this machine now, anyway. 20:57:22 It either has to wait until tomorrow, or I need to do that on remote machine. 20:58:41 ASau`: The helpful thing will be identifying where it fails to include pthreads. If you want to see build logs in several architectures check out the logs on http://pre.racket-lang.org/ 20:59:27 (In case you folks are wondering about this apparently random behaviour surrounding libpthread.so on NetBSD: The reason for it is to avoid the overhead of any thread safety mechanisms in libc for programs that don't need it because they're single-threaded. However, once you're in the middle of the process and there's a bunch of stuff already being used from libc, you can't retroactively apply thread safety to it.) 20:59:32 eli: does it do pthreaded build by defalt or am I to enforce it? 20:59:55 ASau`, I don't think buildlink3 will let you use libpthread if you haven't told it to do so in lang/racket/Makefile. 21:00:11 I'm aware of that. 21:00:30 (Not that it always works as intended though...) 21:01:08 Yeah, it's a horrible pile of disgusting kludgerosity, but for the most part it does work to enforce declaring dependencies. 21:01:39 /home/asau/pkg/bin/bmake xsrc/precomp.h 21:01:39 env XFORM_PRECOMP=yes ../racketcgc -cqu ./xform.rkt --setup . --cpp "cc -E -I./.. -I./../include -I/home/asau/pkg/include -I/usr/include -I/home/asau/pkg/include/freetype2 -DNO_MBTOWC_FUNCTIONS" --keep-lines -o xsrc/precomp.h ./precomp.c 21:01:39 JIT buffer overflow: 0x7f7ffdff59e6 [0x7f7ffdff2020,0x7f7ffdff59e0] (1)!! 21:01:39 [1] Abort trap (core dumped) env XFORM_PRECOM... 21:01:42 *** Error code 134 21:01:51 This is complete message for JIT problem. 21:03:05 Oh, nice. 21:03:10 There's backtrace. 21:04:25 ASau`: It *should* add pthread by default, the fact that it doesn't for you is the problem. Possibly some configure problem. 21:04:31 *eli* goes out 21:07:09 http://pastebin.com/R5DBFu4F 21:11:12 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 21:13:54 *ASau`* wonders if previous release can be improved on that machine... 21:14:55 ASau`, what kind of machine is it? 21:15:05 that is, what does uname -a say 21:15:19 $ uname -mrs 21:15:19 NetBSD 5.1_STABLE amd64 21:16:22 ah yes, for netbsd parallelism is not enabled by default 21:16:42 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:16:47 I'll check it. 21:17:07 But it isn't particularly fast, and racket builds rather slowly. 21:17:24 you could add --enable-places --enable-futures to configure 21:17:42 thats basically the only thing automatic parallelism adds anyway 21:18:14 We'll see in a while. 21:18:18 It is background task for me. 21:18:34 So don't expect fast updates. 21:30:47 labrintok [cfa1525c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.161.82.92] has joined #scheme 21:32:39 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7C8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:42:05 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 21:42:56 what ho 21:47:58 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:45 -!- cd__mob [~carld@76.177.215.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:02:36 -!- asumu [~at@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:28:59 eli: I lived in New Zealand for 20 years, but for the last two years I've been living in North Carolina. :-) 22:29:34 How much would a train to Boston cost, cky? 22:30:03 -!- sajith [~sajith@140-182-144-61.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:30:53 Riastradh: That's a good question. I'll find out. 22:32:34 One thing it doesn't cost is being treated like a criminal. Amtrak won't let you travel anonymously, but at least they won't grope, irradiate, and generally harass you. 22:33:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@38.104.194.118] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:34:17 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@38.104.194.118] has joined #scheme 22:34:31 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:36:37 Riastradh: That is very, very true. 22:37:49 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #scheme 22:39:53 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #scheme 22:43:32 cky: Ah, I thought that if you have some way to get ~$200 tickets from NZ, then I should run there for a vacation... 22:44:00 cky: FWIW, there are busses from NYC that are very cheap and very convenient. 22:45:56 eli: If it were only $200 to visit NZ, I'd do it in a heartbeat too...my folks have often been asking when I'd visit. :-) 22:46:19 eli: Buses are definitely another option to explore, yes. 22:46:38 Charlotte to Boston by train is still $200 (or more). About the same as Seattle to Santa Barbara. 22:47:14 I always forgot how long the E coast is.... 22:47:29 IIRC, those busses are very frequent, and they even have wireless on them. 22:47:33 Some chinese name. 22:47:58 It's not a matter of how long the east coast is, Daemmerung. Pricing of train tickets is pretty random. 22:48:34 It matters when I was imagining it was Seattle to Portland 22:48:38 *Daemmerung* is provincial 22:48:42 For example, Boston<->San Francisco costs only about twice what Boston<->NYC costs. That is not exactly the ratio of distances... 22:49:03 [FWIW, my wife went yesterday to NJ, and was so pissed that she changed her travel back to a plane. Said that the train ride to 10 hours.] 22:49:24 (I have no bloody clue why it costs nearly $150 to ride a train between Boston and NYC when it costs $15 to ride any of the buses.) 22:49:52 That is weird. Seattle to Portland on a train is pretty damned cheap. 22:50:01 By the way, the Fung Wah bus allows anonymous travel. Most of the others between Boston and New York don't (Bolt, Peter Pan, Megabus, &c.). 22:50:50 Aha -- Fung Wah. 22:50:54 cky: ^ 22:51:02 It allows anonymous travel so that they don't have to tell anyone you're dead after their so-called bus crashes and burns, as it does from time to time. 22:51:13 eli: Fung Wah is the name of the bus company? 22:51:45 Oh, it is (as Riastradh said). 22:51:48 Trains see themselves as competing with planes, which is actually plausible after you add the time to and from the airports, the 2-hour mandated early arrival time, etc. 22:52:23 cky: Yes. They're very known, and very useful for the few destinations they serve. 22:52:51 Then there are legitimate bus companies, and then there are "Chinatown bus companies", which are fly-by-night operations suitable for those whose lives are worth nothing. 22:52:55 IIRC, it's chinatown to chinatown, which on the Boston side means that you're in South Station, which makes it very easy to go from there. 22:55:34 keywords "bus plunge" 22:56:10 Another bus-plunge fan! 22:56:19 (Hmm, I think we discussed this some time ago.) 22:56:55 ftp://ftp.cs.cmu.edu/user/jcr/histcont.pdf <-- nice historical article on the discoveries of continuations, 7 independent times. 22:57:01 I am reading a very amusing Slate article on the phenom right now. 22:57:46 URL? 22:58:40 nm, found it 22:58:56 (on different compy, sorry) 22:59:43 "Does the vehicle have at least one windshield wiper? That's an excellent sign" 23:00:23 "It was better when buses plunged in countries with short names," he says. "A bus plunge in Peru was infinitely easier to deal with than a bus plunge in Argentina or Paraguay." 23:01:13 Woh, two followups. 23:01:25 And a "hand-built RSS feed". Even Riastradh's RSS feed isn't hand-built. 23:01:53 My RSS feed isn't built. Maybe you built one, but I didn't! 23:02:41 Hence, it is not hand-built. Alas for old world craftsmanship. 23:03:21 It may be that it isn't hand-built, but it's also the case that it is hand-built. 23:04:02 It's your RSS feed no matter who built it. 23:04:03 Can the unbuilt feed be hand-built? 23:04:08 No. 23:04:36 Well, sure, Daemmerung. False implies true; if it was built, it was hand-built. 23:04:45 ["bus plunged" site:ap.org] pulls up lots of bus-plunge stories, though you can't actually read them except in the Google cache. 23:04:45 False implies anything, I mean. 23:04:49 kuribas [~user@94-227-94-171.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 23:04:52 ASau`: That paste bin thing is *obnoxious* without a spam blocker. 23:05:10 eli: makes one appreciate lisppaste all the more 23:05:16 +1 23:05:27 Riastradh: I used to think as you do until I met a real logician who explained the difference between restricted and unrestricted universally quantified variables. 23:05:34 at least, whenever lisppaste honors us with its rare presence 23:05:51 ASau`: It doesn't show where things fail, but it's probably at the configure step that it doesn't add the -pthread flag for whatever reason. 23:06:41 ASau`: Also, I don't know how you got the version up to "5.99", so my guess is that you cooked a bunch of additional stuff in, which will make it harder to debug. 23:07:14 eli, `5.99' means the development version of NetBSD that will become 6. 23:07:48 Ah. 23:08:13 Is NetBSD the weird one? 23:08:23 Riastradh: It's true that (Ax) f(x) => g(x) is vacuously true if nothing satisfies f(x), (Ax: x is-a f) g(x) is vacuously false if f is empty. 23:08:37 I vaguely remember one of them being more restrictive and less common than the other two. 23:08:40 The weird one? 23:08:47 s/is-a f/is-a F 23:09:54 jcowan, you're talking about much hairier logic than I am. All I'm talking about is basic simple boolean logic, where => has the truth table (t t | t) (t f | f) (f t | t) (f f | t). 23:10:16 By invoking the hairy logic, you're spoiling the joke! 23:10:49 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:10:54 Monks weep for their ruined koans. 23:12:22 Lakewalkers weep for their ruined plunkins. 23:12:55 Also, it's still your fault that the RSS feed you mentioned isn't hand-built. You could remedy it. 23:13:25 Riastradh: No doubt. But the issue is what formalism to translate real-world sentences like "the unbuilt feed is hand-built" into. 23:13:47 As for hand-building your RSS feed, I decline the honor. Just providing it is enough fo rme. 23:13:57 Your feed, not mine! 23:14:23 (In Lojban the distinction between the two kinds of "your" is clearly expressible.) 23:18:19 zmv [~Telefonic@187.34.55.220] has joined #scheme 23:24:13 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:25:31 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:29:47 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:35:41 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 23:38:23 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-ff04dd00-56.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:39:53 peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-ff04dd00-56.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 23:41:05 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-ff04dd00-56.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:26 peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-ff04dd00-56.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 23:42:44 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-ff04dd00-56.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:52 peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-ff04dd00-56.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 23:45:34 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-49-6-99.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 23:46:25 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-ff04dd00-56.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 23:46:35 peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-ff04dd00-56.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 23:49:04 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-ff04dd00-56.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:11 peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-ff04dd00-56.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 23:50:08 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-ff04dd00-56.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:13 peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-ff04dd00-56.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 23:50:48 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #scheme 23:54:36 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-133-116.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]