00:01:16 sure. I read that about SS, but wasn't aware of CS3. only 10 and 61[ABC] 00:02:20 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:04:06 tildeleb [~tildeleb@c-24-7-85-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:09:20 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-80-192-44.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:14:28 eholk [~eholk@64.134.231.28] has joined #scheme 00:16:49 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 00:30:38 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-133-116.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #scheme 00:33:26 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-174-62-239-154.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:34:32 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:34:49 Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 00:49:07 -!- eholk [~eholk@64.134.231.28] has quit [Quit: eholk] 01:10:53 Penten [~user@114.255.149.182] has joined #scheme 01:11:25 hakkum [~hakkum@c-67-181-176-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:14:53 smtlaissezfaire_ [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 01:14:53 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:14:53 -!- smtlaissezfaire_ is now known as smtlaissezfaire 01:16:41 -!- Penten [~user@114.255.149.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:59 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.205] has joined #scheme 01:35:43 Penten [~user@114.255.149.182] has joined #scheme 01:41:02 r2q2 [43ad6b5a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.173.107.90] has joined #scheme 01:51:55 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:00:49 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-80-192-44.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:01:09 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:09:15 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:15:29 -!- yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:15:40 yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 02:25:54 Did i tell you guys that i wrote a package in scheme 02:26:00 and it got 1700 downloads? 02:26:37 r2q2: Yay! What does your package do? 02:28:22 Generates uuids 02:28:29 universally unique identifiers 02:28:36 i ported it to racket v5 02:28:46 i lost the docs though i couldn't figure it out how to do it 02:28:52 I have the docs in scrible format 02:29:03 i wrote the docs explicttly and it seems to compile 02:29:07 i just can get the package to work 02:29:29 i mean 02:29:31 when i package the app 02:29:34 i mean the package 02:29:35 ugh 02:29:39 when i package the library 02:29:48 it doesn't recognise the documentation 02:30:09 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #scheme 02:32:08 fbass [~zac@71-222-128-153.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 02:32:30 -!- DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-58-65.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:33:35 cky uuids are unique identifers for distributed applications 02:33:51 cky: at least that is one useage. I ported it form gambit. 02:33:53 cky uuids? 02:33:55 oh 02:34:03 mmm, uuids 02:35:00 if anyone can help me with documentation and racket please do 02:35:14 i just cant get the package manager to recognise the docs 02:35:49 r2q2: I've done enough Windows programming to have played with GUIDs lots, so yes, I can imagine the utility of your package. :-) 02:35:51 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 02:36:02 cky do you have racket 02:36:07 r2q2: Yes, of course. 02:36:15 cky ok here is my problem 02:36:19 i have the docs in that package 02:36:51 i even wrote the package manifest to reconise the docs 02:36:57 but for some reason when i use racket 02:37:07 the package manifest doesn't find the doc file 02:37:59 I haven't written a package myself, so unfortunately I can't help. :-( 02:38:22 r2q2: But, this channel has lots of Racketeers, so some of them should be able to help you better. 02:38:44 ok 02:44:09 r2q2_ [43ad6b5a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.173.107.90] has joined #scheme 02:44:17 stupid cr48 02:44:22 -!- r2q2 [43ad6b5a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.173.107.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:44:48 oh haha at first i thought cr48 was aol-speak for 'crap' 02:46:09 heh, no :P 02:46:15 oh its pretty crappy 02:46:30 what do you not like about it? 02:48:30 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48:49 elly: Maybe r2q2_ was expecting it to be more like a conventional netbook. :-) 02:48:58 oh no 02:49:04 i was expecting it not to suck as much 02:49:08 but then i remembered 02:49:13 google needs iterations to be good 02:49:21 if they don't complete like 2-3 iterations 02:49:27 fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 02:49:42 by iterations i mean major software revisions 02:49:55 Welcome to the 21st century, the age of the perpetual beta. 02:50:29 yea my software is still in beta so i shouldn't complain 02:50:30 LOL 02:50:37 :-P 02:52:38 eholk [~eholk@63-235-13-3.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 02:52:54 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|fkn_away_nick 02:53:34 r2q2_: I mean, are there specific things you don't like about it? 02:53:54 yea 02:54:06 app availability is the biggest problem 02:55:16 as in web-store apps? 03:00:41 yea 03:00:47 until cloud9 came along 03:00:47 *elly* nods 03:00:52 it would be annoying to develop 03:00:54 is there anything else you don't like about it? 03:00:59 slowness 03:01:05 but that was addressed in the new chromebooks 03:01:12 yeah, I know :) 03:01:24 *elly* is one of the system software engineers 03:01:59 Gogo elly! 03:02:20 ORLY 03:02:28 why did you give it away to developers 03:02:29 yarly 03:02:47 most of my developer friends 03:02:48 -!- eholk [~eholk@63-235-13-3.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: eholk] 03:02:48 I mostly did kernel, driver, and low-level userspace for the connectivity team 03:02:55 r2q2_: That's like asking why Google gave away Google+ accounts to various people. 03:03:02 I do not know why we did that :) Marketing moves in mysterious ways 03:03:06 oh ok 03:03:21 marketing should have given it to shopping malls 03:03:24 or OPRAH 03:03:32 heh 03:03:39 that would have been WAY ore effective 03:03:42 and give the developers 03:03:44 a golden laptop 03:03:48 that is already unlocked 03:04:01 r2q2_: Unlocked? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a Cr48? 03:04:03 and had a NACL extension library 03:04:13 cky it is defeating the purpose 03:04:19 cky: hrm? there's a switch under the battery that makes it boot arbitrary code from a USB stick 03:04:25 crk thats the point 03:04:29 (and let you install arbitrary code to the SSD) 03:04:38 anyway thats my humble opinion 03:04:40 elly: Huh. I see. :-) 03:04:47 if i were on the cr48 team 03:04:52 I would try to write a NACL ap 03:05:04 NACL extension that allows you to write native apps for the device. 03:05:16 r2q2_: Ugh. 03:05:34 or even 03:05:47 err this is geting off topic for #scheme 03:05:52 yes 03:06:06 elly do you still work at google? 03:06:08 r2q2_: (Say I, whose holy grail is a Scheme-based OS where "native" code is written in Scheme. Direct object code (i.e., anything not generated by the JIT compiler) is sandboxed, no exceptions.) 03:06:09 yes 03:06:20 I have moved to the security team instead of the connectivity team, but yes :) 03:06:26 elly: Gogo security! 03:06:31 yes 03:06:41 right now I am working on enhancements to the verified boot stack 03:07:23 r2q2_: And yes, the sandboxing means that any calls to unmanaged code would have to go through marshalling/unmarshalling, thus making the use of unmanaged code "for performance" less fruitful. 03:07:36 actually 03:07:40 not necesarly nacl 03:07:45 but you guys have research in managed python 03:07:54 so i would try to just have a managed python runtime 03:08:01 idk i'm just thinking out loud 03:08:14 elly: I have a friend who works at Matasano. Probably a different kind of security as that which you work on, but interesting too. :-) 03:08:17 elly can we take this to chromium c 03:08:29 that is a different kind of security, yes 03:08:36 elly: Too bad neither of you can really talk in detail to the other about any work stuff, otherwise you could have some nice conversations. :-) 03:08:47 r2q2_: I'm not in the project channel when I'm not at work, for my own sanity :P 03:08:57 cky: hm? the stuff I work on is all open-source :) I can talk about it all I want 03:08:59 elly I do social network analysis at my job. 03:09:06 rapleaf-style? 03:09:15 elly: Huh, I thought Google is super-secretive, but I guess it's not Apple. ;-) 03:09:18 elly well at least coding statistics in java. 03:09:32 ok 03:09:37 for everyone that wants to have this conversation 03:09:42 cky: http://code.google.com/p/chromium-os/issues/list?can=2&q=owner%3Aellyjones%40chromium.org 03:09:43 http://tinyurl.com/5vkv78b 03:09:46 my bug list :) 03:10:18 elly: Oooh. :-) 03:10:38 elly: So I would like to formally introduce myself. Also sort of a reintroduction to the channel so that everyone knows what I am doing right now 03:10:46 go for it 03:11:02 elly: I am joshua Herman. I am a research programmer at the university of illinois at chicago. We do dynamic network research. 03:11:04 -!- takamoron [~takamorm@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:11:10 neat 03:11:22 elly: I also study knot theory at the university. I am trying to do quantum computation with knots 03:11:23 I am elly, I am a programmer at google working on chrome os 03:11:27 woah, cool 03:11:41 takamoron [~takamorm@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has joined #scheme 03:11:59 elly: Its knot a joke you can do computation with knots. They just represent the particle movement in space. 03:12:08 that was terrible :P 03:12:08 elly: but that line was 03:12:09 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:12:20 how does doing computation with knots work? 03:12:24 ok 03:12:38 imagine for instance 03:12:42 you tie your shoes 03:12:48 but get rid of the shoe 03:12:53 sure 03:12:55 r2q2_: UIC, huh? Do you work with djb? 03:13:06 and you take a curling iron 03:13:11 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 03:13:15 and that curling iron magically 03:13:43 well what do you think that curling iron would do 03:13:55 if you applied a curling iron to a tied knot? 03:14:06 no 03:14:14 well to the ends 03:14:16 what would hapen 03:14:35 the knot would get tighter? my intuition here is not good 03:14:41 thats okay 03:14:54 could you unknot the knot if you melted the ends together? 03:15:16 I think that is a function of how you tie your shoes 03:15:22 true 03:15:27 so 03:15:31 if you do the double-bow thing, yes 03:15:32 I think 03:15:34 ok 03:15:40 so given a double-bow 03:15:46 if you melt the ends together 03:15:49 you probably can't untie it 03:15:54 hm, really? 03:15:58 maybe I will try it :) 03:16:01 have you tried doing that 03:16:04 no 03:16:08 yea 03:16:11 but I have a soldering iron ;) 03:16:13 thats the big difference between knot theory 03:16:18 and knots in real life 03:16:23 knots are closed curves in s^3 03:16:33 braids are open curves in s^3 03:16:46 the last two lines you said made more sense than the previous metaphor :) 03:16:52 ok 03:16:58 i try to explain in metaphors 03:17:04 although that is an interesting intuitive way to explain it 03:17:07 now lets go to the quantum computing model 03:17:10 sure 03:17:15 (I don't know much about QC) 03:17:19 ok 03:17:32 lets say you have a bunch of marbles 03:17:49 and you take those marbles 03:18:02 and put them in a device 03:18:04 which has holes in it 03:18:14 this device has a entry point in the center 03:18:39 now lets take for instance that it is a deterministic system 03:18:45 sure 03:18:48 even though that would go against our intuition 03:19:02 so that taking the marble 03:19:07 would just go to a hole 03:19:10 deterministically 03:19:17 for instance 03:19:25 given a set of holes 03:19:27 and a set of marbles 03:19:29 so the device has one input hole and many output holes? 03:19:36 yes for one time step 03:19:43 for every time step 03:19:55 now this can be described by a transition matrix 03:20:01 yes 03:20:02 output my anus! 03:20:03 if we put in integers but not fractions 03:20:07 and the transition amtrix changes at each time step? 03:20:10 yes 03:20:17 alright, makes sense so far 03:20:20 now lets make it harder 03:20:31 make your transitions probabilistic 03:20:37 take a marble 03:20:41 and there are probabilitys 03:20:45 but what would that look like 03:20:46 right 03:20:47 well 03:20:56 lets say there is a marble in the center of a triangle of points 03:21:03 each point is equidistant to each marble 03:21:06 i mean 03:21:07 elly, can you please make the Google captcha go away for Tor users? Thanks. 03:21:08 and the resulting transition matrix then chosen probabilistically too? 03:21:15 yes 03:21:21 now here is a question for your understanding elly 03:21:21 Riastradh: I can't do that, sorry :( if I could I'd have done so already 03:21:32 if i have 3 holes 03:21:39 and i put the marble in the center 03:21:41 and i apply a random force 03:21:45 what is the probability 03:21:50 that it will go to any hole 03:21:57 the holes form a equilateral triangle 03:22:07 hrm 03:22:19 are we in only two dimensions here? 03:22:25 yes 03:22:47 we may not end up in any hole, but the more force we add, the higher the probability of ending up in some hole 03:22:57 what that probability is I'm not quite sure how to model though 03:23:08 ok 03:23:19 lets simplify it 03:23:29 and say that there are 1/3 chance of entering in each hole 03:23:38 OR 03:23:46 if you know it's going to enter one of them, then yes, it's 1/3 03:23:51 oh of course 03:23:56 it must enter in a hole 03:24:00 then sure, it's 1/3 03:24:05 go on :) 03:24:07 now we are thinking probabailistically 03:24:12 final step 03:24:25 what if we take out those matricies 03:24:39 and replace them with complex numbers 03:24:49 the final question is what would that do to your transitions 03:24:51 and also 03:24:59 how do I model the state of the system? 03:25:04 wait, how does that work? (replacing your matrices with complex numbers) 03:25:13 do you mean making the elements of the matrices complex, or? 03:26:01 all elements become complex numbers 03:26:05 so for instance 03:26:10 the double slit experiment 03:26:25 to generalize to our previous experiment 03:26:29 a double slit with 3 holes 03:26:39 is that really a double slit 03:26:51 I don't know what it even means to have a complex probability 03:26:57 ok 03:27:00 well 03:27:08 it changes the measure of the space 03:27:11 the norm if you will 03:27:21 when we previously discussed classical computation 03:27:33 we computed norms in eucledian space 03:27:41 sure 03:27:47 when we discuss quantum computation we perform operations in hilbert space 03:28:00 but for quantum computation you only need to consider finite dimensional hilbert spaces 03:28:16 which are generalizations of eucledian space in the complex plane 03:28:26 to do this 03:28:32 we might want to consider the whole state space 03:28:33 ah, hrm 03:28:46 well how about the easier question. how do i model the state of the particles. 03:28:58 and what do i do to get the next time step 03:29:45 this would apply to all models 03:29:56 so the complex probabilities really model a pair of probabilities that are in different dimensions? 03:30:24 yes 03:30:30 okay, cool 03:30:34 one is a real number 03:30:39 one is an imaginary number 03:30:51 ok a few misconceptions about quantum computers before we go on 03:31:00 do they consider EVERY state? 03:31:24 I do not know :) I had presumed they probabilistically considered states, so states with probability zero are unconsidered 03:31:48 ok 03:31:50 they DON"T 03:31:54 dont go that path 03:32:01 alright 03:32:04 what do they do? 03:32:04 if they considered every computational path 03:32:09 that would be very powerful 03:32:13 ok i need to use a graph for this 03:32:22 please bear with me 03:32:30 sure :) 03:33:09 Precious1etals [~Heart@pool-173-79-248-198.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:33:30 elly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BQP_complexity_class_diagram.svg 03:33:36 i hope you use google chrome ;-) 03:33:49 I use firefox, actually :) but it looks okay 03:33:51 because i know that chrome supports that 03:34:04 ok firefox is compliant with standards 03:34:07 now 03:34:16 the dashed line is the current guess 03:34:23 of what theorists can make quantum computers do 03:34:33 i assume your familiar with np and P 03:34:38 and np complete correct 03:34:45 (sanity check: on the chart, P is the deterministic model, NP is the probabilistic model with real probabilities) 03:34:52 but yes, I know what P and NP are 03:34:58 what is pspace? 03:35:08 problems that can be solved in polynomial space 03:35:11 ok 03:35:23 and that is a good segwey to go back to knots 03:35:31 huh, okay :P 03:35:40 because a concrete problem was solved in pspace 03:35:49 segue 03:35:58 a segway is a silly scooter 03:36:08 and idk what segwey is 03:36:09 a knot theory problem 03:36:15 mhm? 03:36:45 but to get there we have to understand knots more 03:36:54 lets go back to knots 03:37:03 knots are curves in s^3 03:37:10 but what can you do with them? 03:37:16 try to untangle them? 03:37:24 I'm not sure how you even measure 'knottedness' though 03:37:34 good 03:37:36 no one CAN 03:37:46 there are ways 03:37:48 well 03:37:53 i mean recognising the unknot 03:38:01 if you are given a trivial prime knot 03:38:04 what I mean 03:38:14 is I am given a knot in s^3 03:38:20 the knot is prime 03:38:24 AND it is also tangled 03:38:29 what is a 'prime knot'? 03:38:30 by tangled i mean you randomly move it in space 03:38:34 just call it a knot in R^3 03:38:43 prime knots are the fundamental knots 03:38:54 ah, okay, by analogy with integers 03:38:55 they can't be untangled no matter how hard you try 03:39:13 a fundanmental unsolved problem is the unknotting problem 03:39:30 a problem that was solved by topological quantum computers is a knot invariant 03:39:45 so now that we know what prime knots are 03:39:50 i suppose we can discuss knot invariants 03:40:06 oh and by the way 03:40:15 i am an undergraduate at the university of illinois at chicago 03:40:18 not a graduate student 03:40:52 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:40:55 what are you getting at, with this lecture? 03:40:57 yeah, I guessed from you saying 'research programmer' :) 03:41:04 (instead of 'grad student') 03:41:06 wow, #scheme is jumpin' 03:41:21 i am getting at algorithms in knot theory 03:41:22 i'm almost there 03:41:25 foof: r2q2_ is explaining how to do computation with knots 03:41:25 well 03:41:29 r2q2_: go on :) 03:41:37 what is the use of knot theory? 03:41:38 so a knot invariant 03:41:50 jonrafkind, they won't tell undergraduates 03:41:53 jonrafakind DNA is knotted 03:42:00 at least reading my professor 03:42:03 ah, that is a good purpose indeed 03:42:04 because the use of knot theory to undergraduates is puzzles and summer research projects 03:42:05 professors papers 03:42:38 so the final result is computing knot invariants 03:42:46 jonrafkind, but it turns out knot theory is pretty seriously interlinked (haha) with a lot of mathematical physics 03:43:07 computing knot invariants is pretty hard 03:43:15 even recognising the UNKNOT is hard. 03:43:32 actually there is less known about recognising the UNKNOT than recognising knot invariants 03:44:14 even though we suspect that recognition of the Unknot is less hard than computing knot invariants. 03:44:26 by hardness mean computational complexity 03:44:33 *elly* nods 03:45:15 so this a paper that i know i only roughly understand 03:45:18 and I will admit that 03:45:30 the things I know is the fact that I believe it approximates pspace problems 03:46:15 hrm 03:46:20 I do not understand how, really :P 03:46:26 A book by Zhenghan wang is a good refrence 03:46:58 they have an elegant way to compute it 03:47:11 by using knots to compute the knot polynominal. sort of meta 03:47:21 and thats one big advantage 03:47:26 the other advantages 03:47:30 are error correction 03:47:54 but lets go back to how knots compute 03:48:00 and go back to the state space 03:48:10 imagine for instance there are magical particles 03:48:18 these magical particles move in 2 dimensional space 03:48:27 and their paths move in 2d space 03:48:34 how would i knot them? 03:48:48 i can't melt two together 03:48:49 *can* you knot things in 2d? 03:48:57 no but you can do something close 03:49:02 what do we do when we tie our shoes? 03:49:09 haha 03:49:12 what do you do when you tie your hair 03:49:35 I pull my hair through a loop of elastic, but that doesn't work in 2d 03:49:40 ok 03:49:56 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-182.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:49:58 hrm actually 03:50:18 pulling through loops in elastic works with topological quantum computers 03:50:26 i have been reading a paper by abramsky 03:51:04 let me dig it up 03:51:08 *r2q2_* uses arxiv front end 03:51:47 we're getting to my bedtime :P 03:52:04 ok 03:52:09 sorry it took so long 03:52:15 if you have more questions about knot theory 03:52:18 please contact me at 03:52:20 it's ok :) 03:52:23 zitterbewegung@gmail.com 03:52:26 i have google plus 03:52:27 hi all 03:52:39