00:03:33 gienah [~mwright@ppp121-44-162-75.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 00:07:45 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-137-73.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:13:06 Daemmerung: Good points; I will say, though, that learning CL after Scheme has been a bizarre experience. 00:14:31 Whereas I was blithely CL-naive in scheme-dom, it seems like CL-literature is rife with anti-Scheme-snark; there seems to be an asymmetry there. 00:15:45 I don't want to be unfair, though; but would it be fair to say that CLers care more about Schemers than vice versa? 00:16:31 That's certainly a hubristic hypothesis; I certainly wouldn't push it in social contexts (e.g. the local Lisp meetup). 00:28:22 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:28:39 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:29:02 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:39:43 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 00:40:07 DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-125-232.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 00:41:18 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@38.104.194.118] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 00:43:17 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:55:52 -!- ijp [~user@host86-150-75-6.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:01:50 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:13:33 zmv [~daniel@c95315ce.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 01:14:33 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:24:53 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.23.145] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:46:52 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:41 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:49:41 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 01:55:19 napum [~napum@c-174-56-110-120.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:55:30 -!- napum [~napum@c-174-56-110-120.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has left #scheme 01:59:41 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-236-243.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:04:56 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 02:06:36 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:07:51 klutometis: well, if you want anti-cl rants, you can still ask Riast 02:08:48 -!- zmv [~daniel@c95315ce.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:12:33 Penten [~user@114.255.149.182] has joined #scheme 02:12:52 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:15:16 parolang [~parolang@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 02:17:21 kniu [~kniu@pool-96-250-3-60.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:20:23 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #scheme 02:23:02 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-137-73.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 02:24:07 sublimepua [~sublimepu@cpe-72-224-203-207.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:34:48 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:35:45 -!- jcowan is now known as secretpens 02:35:50 -!- secretpens is now known as jcowan 02:43:22 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:44:11 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:46:55 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:50:41 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:54:10 Axioplase_: For the most part, though, #scheme seems to be aristocratically indifferent to CL. 02:57:11 The Lisp wars have mostly died down. 02:57:24 CL is what it is, and indeed Scheme is what it is. 02:57:31 thanks to the death of the participants ;) 02:58:11 -!- DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-125-232.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:59:02 Really, samth? 03:03:44 probably 03:03:58 samth: Indeed, my fear is that N is insufficient to sustain the dialog. 03:07:58 klutometis: Well, I use both, and like both for what they are. 03:08:16 I think "aristocratic indifference" fucking nails it. 03:09:58 djcb` [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 03:10:00 *Daemmerung* will speak no evil of the dead 03:10:53 klutometis: But I must say that I like Scheme for I like my implementation of choice rather than just the pure RnRS kernel (which I consider a necessary basis for any good implementation) 03:11:21 CL has, for me, more to offer even before thinking of choosing an implementation. 03:12:03 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:12:34 -!- sublimepua [~sublimepu@cpe-72-224-203-207.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:14:01 DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-125-232.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 03:15:42 I certainly wouldn't complain if I had to learn CL for a job. Indeed, I would dance a little jig of despair. 03:19:25 *jcowan* chuckles. 03:19:37 One of the sources of CL-snark is the tendency to conflate Scheme with R5RS. 03:20:08 good thing the scheme community has moved past that, eh? 03:20:21 *Daemmerung* makes the sad-trombone sound 03:20:25 R5RS is only a small fraction of the functionality provided by every full Scheme I know of except Scheme 9. 03:21:24 Axioplase_: Well, it certainly has _more_ to offer by mere reason of being larger. Whether more = better in this context is a question. 03:21:49 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 03:22:04 I suppose R5RS is a large fraction of Chibi's function, but Chibi is both very new and intentionally small. 03:23:02 Chibi has quite a lot of modules and advanced features. 03:23:16 And Scheme9 is huge compared to tinyscheme. 03:23:17 djcb`` [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 03:23:28 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:23:32 jcowan: Well, "not reinventing the wheel is better" 03:23:46 R2RS reinvented the wheel to some profit, though. 03:23:58 ye ancyiente Lispe wheele 03:24:22 And indeed CL took a few things from R2. And then stopped. 03:24:30 But it's true that most reinvented wheels are hexagons 03:24:34 jcowan: I meant that I don't want to reinvent it. CL offers *by default* many useful procedures and macros. 03:24:34 Daemmerung: that noise was about what i was going for 03:24:36 Actually, Stalin is probably the tiniest Scheme with a user-base larger than 1. 03:24:40 -!- djcb` [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:24:44 foof: true 03:25:02 pocket scheme is R{4or5}RS, with not much more, iirc 03:25:36 Axioplase_: he said, (> user-base 1) 03:25:43 Fair enough; it's not on my lists (except the who-does-which-SRFI list) because I don't have a suitable device. 03:26:10 Daemmerung: I use it. I hope its creator too. That would be >1 03:26:14 jcowan: you shouldn't have a suitable device. It is dead. An ex-Scheme. Singing w/ the Scheme choir eternal. etc. 03:26:36 Axioplase_: bless you. Its creator, namely me, no longer uses it. May it continue to serve. 03:26:38 If only TinyScheme fell into that category. 03:27:11 Daemmerung: ah? is it you? Well, glad you made it :) 03:28:09 Ah, the spear in my heart! 03:28:28 I just googled for [rabbit scheme] and found this gem: 03:28:48 "Rabbit Scheme is an old implementation of a Scheme compiler in [wait for it, wait for it] 03:28:53 InterLisp." 03:29:28 That is choice. 03:29:36 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 03:29:44 And THAT is a dead Lisp war, colder than the ashes of CL vs Scheme by far. 03:30:09 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:10 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 03:30:14 Oh yes. 03:31:18 I worked for a while on the first Interlisp-D to have full CL support as well 03:31:43 The ancestor of Medley 03:31:48 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 03:31:58 ps 03:32:06 Suddenly I feel young. I like this a lot. 03:32:31 Ah yes, Lyric it was called. 03:33:15 Cool! bitsavers is keeping a PDF of Lyric's CL implementation notes. 03:34:29 We should all just switch to EmacsLisp. 03:36:47 No. We. Should. Not. 03:36:55 Emacs should switch to US. 03:37:15 Is there going to be Chibi support for Emacs Lisp? That would be the fourth implementation. 03:37:18 Emacs should switch to CL. THat would be awesome. 03:37:45 It would, but Emacs is big enough as it is without dragging in a huge CL implementation. 03:37:50 Which one is the smallest? 03:38:19 Emacs already has an implementation of half of Common Lisp... 03:38:24 I really don't think that CL would make Emacs much bigger. 03:38:29 Riastradh: haw haw 03:38:35 is it buggy and slow? 03:39:13 I don't know how complete the Kawa implementation of elisp is. 03:39:40 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:39:56 Compressed with gzip, the Emacs 23.2 distribution is 45 MB. Compressed with bzip2, an SBCL source and binary distribution barely exceeds 10 MB. I don't think gzip versus bzip2 accounts for the difference. 03:40:00 (SBCL 1.0.29) 03:41:26 I was thinking of memory consumption, not disk consumption. 03:41:51 Emacs is not big by modern standards. It is one third the size of my THunderbird image in-mem. 03:41:53 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 03:42:22 Or shoudl I say, Thunderpig 03:42:41 Shouldn't memory consumption decrease? 03:42:55 jcowan: I'm not actually that interested in Emacs Lisp, I think switching to a Scheme editor is an excellent chance to clean up all the Emacs cruft. 03:44:33 Eek, the chibi tarball size is trippling with each release - it's already up to 317kb! 03:45:54 Three 5 1/4" floppy disks?? Do you own stock in 3M??? 03:45:55 03:46:16 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:50:23 foof: better ideas would be Lua and JavaScript 03:56:39 *jcowan* reads about the weirdness of CL packages that inherit from the Interlisp package 03:56:54 (which is a legit CL package in Lyric, except that all its symbols are external) 03:57:46 Someday GNU Emacs will use Guile :) 03:58:02 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:58:45 Emacs is as much a scheme editor as any other editor. 04:00:28 jcowan: My list, in no particular order, is Lua, JavaScript, Go and Bash. 04:01:01 This is pending a PEG library, which I will write at some point in my copious free time. 04:01:05 Bash!?!? 04:01:51 Yes, I want to be able to analyze shell scripts, determine statically as much about them as possible, and potentially translate them to Scheme. 04:02:25 Well, it's a thought. 04:03:07 Everywhere I go, no matter where or what I'm working on, I have to deal with bash scripts, and they have a nasty habit of growing large and unwieldy. 04:03:10 Would the Lua implementation accept source or bytecode? 04:03:24 Source only. 04:03:43 Why not a bytecode-to-bytecode translator? 04:04:05 *jcowan* chuckles at Lyric's (make-array :fatp t) extension 04:06:11 Maybe a better approach would be to make Edwin support emacs-lisp. 04:06:38 *Daemmerung* has never used Edwin himself, but feels free to recc it for others 04:08:07 :fatp t makes a string use proto-Unicode rather than 8-bit characters only. 04:08:57 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:09:42 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:10:43 -!- parolang [~parolang@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:13:37 I've never looked at Lua's bytecode - it may require changes to my VM to get it working, at least efficiently so. 04:14:05 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 04:22:36 Daemmerung: Can you still buy floppy disks? 04:23:35 djcb``` [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 04:25:20 -!- djcb`` [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:27:03 Sure you can. The question is: can you buy 8" floppy disks? 04:27:12 I wonder. 04:28:49 Only 3.5" available on Amazon. I was nevertheless surprised to see even those. 04:29:07 They made 8" disks? 04:29:26 They did indeed. Predecessor to the 5.25". 04:30:07 Only 3.5" available on Newegg, as well. 04:30:14 The PDP-8/A that my friend in high school had in his basement (it was not a desk*top* but a whole desk) used them. 04:30:26 http://www.athana.com/html/diskette.html sells all sizes. 04:30:46 Wow. 04:30:53 *Daemmerung* nostalgias 04:30:57 At least, they did in 1997. The website might just be running on fumes. 04:31:12 Oops. Didn't scroll to bottom of pae. 04:33:25 The contact page is dated 2008, and the 800 number leads to voicemail (at least right now it does, but it's after business hours) 04:33:58 floppydisk.com advertises "8 inch disks available!" 04:34:10 Thuryago. 04:34:26 RenardP [~chatzilla@modemcable151.135-160-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 04:34:43 It's practically a John Holmes movie. 04:35:25 -!- RenardP [~chatzilla@modemcable151.135-160-184.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 04:36:04 Or at least, two thirds of a movie. 04:41:45 -!- ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:41:52 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:43:18 *jcowan* didn't realize just how close floppies were to DECtape. 04:44:05 *jcowan* thinks it's cool how the Linux floppy driver reads the whole floppy into a buffer at mount time and writes it once at umount time. 04:44:21 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:47:51 Definitely prolongs the life of the media. 04:51:16 jcowan: that's why some people use the "sync" command often. That should force flushing. 04:51:37 Not sure it will do anything in that case. 04:52:05 Basically a floppy disk on Linux is a memory device. 04:52:13 With a sort of behind-the-scenes backing store. 04:52:33 Sync will just IIUC force block device buffers into ... the driver's buffers. 04:52:51 I would be surprised if one couldn't flush the contents to the floppy without unmounting. 04:53:09 My knowledge of the subject sorta ran out in 1995 or so. 04:53:11 ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 04:53:20 On the other hand, I don't have the hardware to test anymore 04:57:28 Hmm, apparently it was some non-Linux driver that did this. 04:57:44 Musta been some other OS. 04:58:02 Certainly the idea is sensible, allocating a private 1440KB buffer in the driver initialization routine. 05:10:14 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:14:23 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 05:16:25 djcb```` [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 05:16:38 -!- carleastlund [~cce@209-6-40-238.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #scheme 05:17:22 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:17:48 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #scheme 05:17:56 -!- djcb``` [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:24:45 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-194-43.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:29:00 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-194-43.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:36:29 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-194-43.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:43:46 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:44:01 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:49:20 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:50:32 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:50:57 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:57:31 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:57:35 -!- djcb```` [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:07:45 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76.10.149.209] has joined #scheme 06:07:58 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:24:48 masm [~masm@bl16-149-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 06:32:41 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 06:44:55 -!- bokr [~ed@109.110.59.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:45:39 ASau [~user@95-26-236-243.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 06:51:48 -!- DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-125-232.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:56:22 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:56:42 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:05:30 -!- Kajtek is now known as jacaato 07:06:08 -!- jacaato is now known as Kajtek 07:08:01 -!- Kajtek is now known as jacaato 07:08:14 -!- jacaato is now known as Kajtek 07:09:50 -!- Kajtek is now known as Koziolek 07:10:04 -!- Koziolek is now known as potwor 07:10:18 -!- potwor is now known as szkla 07:10:50 -!- szkla is now known as Kajtek 07:11:07 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:13:36 -!- monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hello] 07:23:16 -!- ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:29:14 ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 07:32:03 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:32:30 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:34:01 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 07:37:26 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 07:51:53 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 07:57:12 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:02:22 -!- ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:08:26 rexim [~rexim@91.204.184.177] has joined #scheme 08:15:06 ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 08:23:12 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:34:32 mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 08:40:34 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-144-247.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:42:32 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-159-186.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 09:05:02 quiccker [~quiccker@193.255.9.49] has joined #scheme 09:08:30 -!- Penten [~user@114.255.149.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:15:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:21:28 -!- quiccker [~quiccker@193.255.9.49] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:28:08 quiccker [~quiccker@193.255.9.49] has joined #scheme 09:31:08 -!- quiccker [~quiccker@193.255.9.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:18 alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has joined #scheme 09:40:57 kytibe [~kytibe@212.174.109.55] has joined #scheme 09:50:51 X-Scale` [email@89-180-133-200.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 09:51:28 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76.10.149.209] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 09:51:39 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:51:42 -!- X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 09:53:08 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Quit: reboot] 10:03:29 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #scheme 10:03:41 bokr [~ed@109.110.54.2] has joined #scheme 10:15:11 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159933.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 10:23:47 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:25:28 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 10:27:45 -!- ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:29:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 10:33:47 kuribas [~user@d54C4308A.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 10:34:58 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:50:44 ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 10:55:46 -!- ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:55:46 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 11:01:39 ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 11:19:00 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 11:22:30 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-159-186.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:26:11 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:29:51 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-159-186.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 11:44:36 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 11:51:48 DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-125-232.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 12:04:28 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:35 -!- bokr [~ed@109.110.54.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:09:45 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:11:15 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 12:12:53 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 12:13:14 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #scheme 12:39:02 zmv [~daniel@c95315ce.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 12:45:06 -!- DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-125-232.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:03:46 wingo [~wingo@169.57.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 13:09:22 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:09:57 Bahman [~bahman@2.144.251.232] has joined #scheme 13:10:10 Hi all! 13:11:25 HELO 13:14:14 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:16:00 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 13:17:00 -!- wingo [~wingo@169.57.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:17:04 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 13:17:56 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 13:20:18 -!- AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable020.240-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: foobar] 13:22:04 wingo [~wingo@70.56.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 13:24:24 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 13:25:05 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-149-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:33:35 schemer999 [~schemer99@c-98-220-235-205.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:34:01 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 13:35:30 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-5f768344.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:37:29 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbec85b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 13:50:17 masm [~masm@bl16-149-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 13:54:52 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 13:57:57 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:18:40 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 14:24:35 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 14:29:21 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-149-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:31:30 djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-sayozjstrvzpjyzz] has joined #scheme 14:43:30 masm [~masm@bl16-149-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 14:45:31 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:47:28 EHLO 14:54:51 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 14:56:00 pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.249.190] has joined #scheme 14:58:12 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 15:06:28 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-149-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:13:45 -!- schemer999 [~schemer99@c-98-220-235-205.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #scheme 15:16:28 -!- djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-sayozjstrvzpjyzz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:36 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:19:40 -!- zmv [~daniel@c95315ce.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:24:22 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:25:35 -!- wingo [~wingo@70.56.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:31:46 -!- ohwow [~oh@www.nig.gs] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:32:33 QUIT 15:35:00 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-180-5.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:37:25 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 15:39:21 ohwow [~oh@www.nig.gs] has joined #scheme 15:43:04 250-Daemmerung Hello, sailor. [127.0.0.1] 15:43:12 250-SIZE matters, baby 15:43:18 250 HELP 15:50:51 *penryu* recommends EXPN 15:54:57 550 No soup for you 15:55:58 so lines with - between code and message indicate there is more coming? 15:57:12 masm [~masm@bl16-149-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 15:57:21 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:57:21 -!- realitygrill_ [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:23 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:57:29 denotes a "multiline response" 15:57:49 with final line marked by an absense of - 15:58:19 precisely 15:58:23 *penryu* infers from current SMTPoIRC conversation and a fresh look at the spec 15:58:50 *Daemmerung* ain't gonna study mail no more, no more 16:15:23 -!- xvilka [~xvilka@ip-79-111-220-160.bb.netbynet.ru] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:16:00 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-52-168.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:20:33 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 16:24:40 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159933.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:33:59 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:34:42 xvilka [~xvilka@ip-79-111-220-160.bb.netbynet.ru] has joined #scheme 16:37:06 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:37:21 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 16:37:43 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.12] has joined #scheme 16:37:43 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.12] has quit [Changing host] 16:37:43 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 16:41:33 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 16:42:52 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:50:06 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:00:50 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:02:48 -!- gienah [~mwright@ppp121-44-162-75.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:10:07 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:10:20 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C4308A.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:15:44 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 17:22:11 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:22:33 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 17:28:03 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 17:33:32 ijp [~user@host86-150-75-6.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:37:35 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-52-168.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 17:43:44 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:54 Daemmerung: Working on Beethoven Op. 2, No. 1, by the way; I thought of you, but then remembered that you're more of a Chopin cat. N'est-ce pas? 17:48:26 I've done that one 17:48:28 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:48:45 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 17:51:11 copumpkin: Really? Nice. I've fucked around with the Moonlight/Appassionata/Pathetique/Waldstein quartet, but thought I'd attack them systematically this time: i.e., from page one. 17:51:38 ah nice, I've done those minus waldstein 17:52:04 haven't played seriously in years though, or at all in the last year 17:52:05 :( 17:52:13 moved and don't have a piano or keyboard 17:52:13 "The saddest words of tongue or pen are these: 'I used to play it.'" --Charles Cooke 17:52:30 _Playing the Piano for Pleasure_ 17:55:10 that is less sad than "it might have been" 17:55:35 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 17:56:45 my favorite sonatas are the last handful 17:56:47 Luckily they are words, not a single word. Otherwise that sentence would be a little NSFW. 17:56:50 29-32 17:57:02 pity I can't play any of them 17:59:16 The second saddest, he says, are "I started to learn it, but I didn't finish it." 17:59:22 klutometis: just revisited the Beethoven 1st violin/piano sonata this morning. I play anything that my tiny hands can span (which mean, No Brahms, No Franck, No fscking Rachmaniwhatshisname). My Chopin is pretty damned rusty of late. 17:59:30 monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:00:06 Appassionata is too burly for me, alas 18:00:20 Daemmerung: no Jon Lord? 18:00:53 heh. I also don't play anything written after 1945. 18:01:38 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-152.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:02:14 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:50 I'll leave music to the professionals. 18:03:12 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-180-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:03:46 foof` [~user@li126-140.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 18:04:30 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-152.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:10:09 parolang [~parolang@12.232.174.106] has joined #scheme 18:11:09 Okay, I have sort of a speculative question here. Scheme (at least Guile) can represent an integer of any size. How does it do this, what happens when your integer gets too big? 18:11:22 Too big for what? 18:11:28 Too big to fail 18:11:35 parolang: It switches to bignums transparently. 18:11:37 I assume, too big to fit in your memory. 18:11:50 Okay, I guess I'll google for bignums then. 18:11:57 That would be one big bignum 18:12:03 If that ever happens, I suppose an internal error occurs. 18:12:13 A biggernum 18:12:28 A googolplexplexplexplex. 18:12:30 Daemmerung: Yeah. I think it would be easy to create it though, maybe creating an arrow function. 18:12:42 Juggernum 18:12:59 the same thing happens that always happens when you run out of memory 18:13:01 By the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak! 18:13:17 elly: It's been a long time :) 18:13:21 the kernel lies to you about it and then unceremoniously kills you and frees your resources when you call its bluff 18:13:29 three cheers for the OOM killer! 18:13:40 *cky* OOM-kills the OOM killer. 18:13:54 Heh, yeah, I don't even know how GNU/Linux handles that, or maybe Guile does something. Dunno. 18:14:14 If only you could kill the killer! 18:15:23 Also...what's the best representation for currency? Rationals? 18:15:33 In Visual Basic I can trap this with ON ERROR. Hah!! Where is your `science' now??? 18:15:52 parolang: exact integers 18:16:12 Daemmerung: And assume that they represent 1/1000th of a cent? 18:16:17 yep 18:16:32 And what's the standard for rounding currency? 18:16:53 no idear 18:16:55 I guess that's something that I've wondered about. Maybe there is no standard, and businesses make up their own rules. 18:17:04 round to even? 18:17:25 dsmith: I know that's how Target does it (I was curious and looked at a few of my recents one day). 18:18:03 Daemmerung: Why not exact rationals though? 18:18:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banker%27s_rounding may be relevant 18:18:46 I was thinking mostly in terms of taxes that are a percentage. 18:19:30 elly: thanks 18:20:04 Depending on which side of the revenue department you're on, it's obvious which way you should round. 18:20:44 Jafet: Yeah, I assumed that Target would always round in their favor, so I was surprised that they didn't though. 18:21:39 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:23:41 maybe they are required to do it a certain way 18:24:16 Or they have enough extremely frugal customers who would complain about it in force :) 18:26:05 I'm just reading through the manual and thinking about things. Like I know how to produce infinity :) 18:26:40 Interesting. Meteorologists use negative zero to indicate a negative measurement that was rounded up. 18:27:11 That is interesting. 18:27:40 When dealing with water, the difference between just above zero and just below zero is very important. 18:28:22 Weird: (number? (/ 0 0.0)) => #t 18:28:43 parolang: NaN is still treated as a number by the Scheme type system. 18:28:44 jcowan: Good point, didn't think about that. 18:28:51 parolang: 1. exact rational admit values unacceptable for currency, such as any value with 7 in the denom. 2. eventually you'll need an integer for any ffi callout anyway. 18:29:34 Scaled integers are a pain, though. 18:29:34 Decimal floating point. :-) 18:29:46 Daemmerung: Okay. It's just the wrong type. I wonder if there's a way to create a type in scheme that only allows 1000 in the denominator. 18:30:08 That's something I mean to ask about...does R7RS (either small, big, or giant) support decimal floating point? 18:30:12 cky: I don't know how to access that in Guile. 18:30:46 parolang: You probably can't, at least not directly. But I seem to recall MFPR has a decimal floating point mode. 18:30:46 Daemmerung: Other than creating your own ADT. 18:30:50 Seriously, rational doesn't buy you diddly. 18:31:02 And I know diddly. 18:31:27 (Or is it, I don't know diddly? Suddenly unsure.) 18:32:02 Daemmerung: I think just for the convenience. Maybe like a reader macro that turns $1.01 into an ADT for currency. 18:32:33 (At least I think a reader macro can do that.) 18:33:08 Daemmerung: Either will do 18:33:13 (Why thousandths of a cent? I thought that the std. was thousandths of a dollar, ie tenths of a cent.) 18:33:36 (Which standard?) 18:33:48 No decimal floating point in R7RS, unless a WG member proposes it and it gets voted in. 18:33:55 Daemmerung: It would be thousandths of a dollar. 18:34:12 diddly, like jack, can mean either "nothing" or "almost nothing", so you can know jack or not know jack, and it means the same thing. 18:34:37 ISTR that conversions between pre-euro currencies and euros were required to be accurate to four decimal places. 18:34:59 It remains to be seen whether Jack knows either Diddly or Squat. Hey, we may have a new Alice and Bob, here. 18:35:33 jcowan: I didn't even think of currency conversions. 18:36:01 jcowan: Maybe rationals would be needed afterall. Or some sort of rational/decimal mixed system, to preserve precision. 18:36:03 I'll stick with Alice and Bob, thanks. 18:36:53 jcowan: Bummer (seeing as even C# has it). I'm not a WG member, but maybe I can try to write something up and see if a WG member wants to sponsor it. 18:36:56 We had a rather inconclusive discussion a while back on whether floats could be used to represent exact binary rationals with a little bit of checking logic. 18:37:03 cky: Please do! 18:37:26 (that is, within the exact range of floats) 18:37:29 Hmm...boo. Guile represents complex numbers as a pair of inexact reals. Why not exact reals? 18:37:54 Most people who actually compute with complex numbers are dealing with inherently inexact quantities. 18:37:55 Probably b.c they're calling out to the C runtime at some point with flonums 18:38:10 ah 18:38:29 It's common to have support for inexact-inexact complex numbers as distinct from generic complex numbers. 18:38:38 Some systems have just inexact-inexact, some have both. 18:39:11 Gotcha. Not that I need it for anything, but thought it was a strange limitation. 18:39:40 Well, time to go. Thanks for the convo all. 18:39:47 The two formats are informally called compnums and rectnums respectively 18:41:49 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:42:28 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:42:28 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 18:43:41 -!- parolang [~parolang@12.232.174.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:48:45 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-98-210-208-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:50:01 -!- mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:56:41 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:00:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-218-199.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:04:48 -!- rexim [~rexim@91.204.184.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:31 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-101-227.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:12 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Quit: Smoove out.] 19:28:03 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 19:30:52 fantazo [~fantazo@91-115-172-222.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 19:31:43 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 19:40:29 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 19:42:05 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:58:18 -!- Bahman [~bahman@2.144.251.232] has quit [Quit: Farewell] 19:59:00 Bahman [~bahman@2.144.251.232] has joined #scheme 20:03:53 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:16:16 -!- PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:18:24 PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has joined #scheme 20:23:03 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.249.190] has quit [Quit: Thanks, fellas] 20:29:46 keenbug [~daniel@p4FE3A4BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:41:36 francogrex [~user@109.130.140.236] has joined #scheme 20:43:38 how come the 'do' macro behaves differently between different implementations for example chicken and SCM ? (I don't even know how it is suppoosed to behave in SCM, but in chicken it is very much like the common lisp) 20:44:15 If you it behaves differently, you are observing either an extension to DO or a bug in the implementation. 20:44:22 What is the difference you are observing? 20:47:05 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-101-227.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:48:00 -!- Bahman [~bahman@2.144.251.232] has quit [Quit: Farewell] 20:49:35 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-101-227.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:50:04 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-101-227.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:52:21 Riastradh: in chicken this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/123087 20:53:33 zarus [~zarus@129.89.198.245] has joined #scheme 20:54:54 The basic difference is that CL's DO mutates variables, whereas Scheme's DO binds fresh ones. 20:55:21 there is no problem with scheme 20:55:27 but with SCM 20:55:37 chicken scheme I meant 20:56:17 in SCM: http://paste.lisp.org/display/123087#1 20:57:29 Are you sure you typed it in correctly, francogrex? 20:58:13 very sure 20:58:48 I don't know where variable 's' comes from! 20:59:23 Then please show (1) *exactly* what you typed, (2) *exactly* what you saw, and (3) *exactly* what you expected to see. Part (1) includes how you started up Chicken, SCM, and whatever Common Lisp system you are using, and part (2) includes all the relevant prompts -- everything written to your terminal. 20:59:32 It probably has to do with SCM's funky macro system. 20:59:57 (Currently what you have shown doesn't make much sense and has obviously been trimmed, so I am hesitant to draw any conclusions from it.) 21:00:25 Riastradh: please see: http://paste.lisp.org/display/123087#2 21:00:46 What happens if you type it all on one line? 21:02:07 Riastradh: then it works if on one line! 21:02:23 Sounds like symbol escapes macro. 21:02:26 In Scheme! 21:02:40 I suspect this is a problem with your terminal in Windows or something. 21:03:16 Hm. 21:03:34 Are you perchance copying & pasting into SCM, rather than typing character by character? 21:03:57 ah ok; how would I then intergate SCM with emacs to avoid the windows terminal? (setq scheme-program-name "C:/chicken/bin/csi.exe -:c") is ok for chicken... 21:04:18 Riastradh: yes copy paste 21:04:19 I have no idea, sorry. I don't know anything about Windows. 21:04:23 This is definitly wrong. 21:04:38 ASau: what is wrong? 21:04:54 francogrex: "...name" is meant to point to a program. 21:05:09 francogrex: for _flags_ there should be another variable. 21:05:42 mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 21:05:53 which one for flags ( -:c) ? 21:06:23 -!- keenbug [~daniel@p4FE3A4BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:07:11 I don't think there's one. 21:07:15 HG` [~HG@p579F7B10.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:07:28 At least not in GNU Emacs 23.2.1 21:07:29 No, `scheme-program-name' is a whole command invocation, not just a pathname to a program. 21:07:39 well then this is the right one 21:08:17 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-218-199.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:03 Weird stuff. 21:10:19 Well... That's horrid indeed. 21:10:35 I mean the implementation of inferior-lisp-mode and inferior-scheme-mode. 21:10:46 Go do it better! 21:11:20 Right now :) 21:16:15 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 21:25:48 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.140.236] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:47 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: going outside] 21:43:03 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:10 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:51:06 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has joined #scheme 21:53:19 vash [~vash@143.132.161.216] has joined #scheme 21:53:25 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 21:55:35 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 21:55:44 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:56:09 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 22:05:15 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 22:08:16 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:10:05 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has joined #scheme 22:17:52 tupi [~david@189.60.162.202] has joined #scheme 22:22:14 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 22:33:46 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-101-227.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:35:42 jcowan: I felt compelled to buy Cooke's book, by the way, on the recommendation of that single quote; hardback's a little pricey, though. 22:37:08 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7B10.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:37:32 -!- vash [~vash@143.132.161.216] has left #scheme 22:39:26 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has left #scheme 22:41:43 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:47:36 Ghu, yes. abebooks.com is your friend in such situations. 22:47:47 They're owned by Amazon, but they are a lot cheaper. 22:48:11 that seems odd 22:48:58 Ownership isn't necessarily control. abebooks is basically a broker for a whole lot of used bookstores, some of which are just folks selling out of their garages. 22:49:19 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-101-227.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 22:49:21 ah, I see 23:02:47 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-149-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:06:07 tshauck [~tshauck@99-109-59-35.lightspeed.mssnks.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:07:36 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 23:07:43 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:08:00 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:13 soveran [~soveran@186.136.173.14] has joined #scheme 23:09:48 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 23:13:42 -!- X-Scale [email@89-180-133-200.net.novis.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:44 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.136.173.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:18 -!- XTL [~XTL@dsl-olubrasgw2-fe6af800-251.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:17:05 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:18:21 XTL [~XTL@dsl-olubrasgw2-fe6af800-251.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 23:22:23 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 23:29:42 -!- XTL [~XTL@dsl-olubrasgw2-fe6af800-251.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:30:21 XTL [~XTL@dsl-olubrasgw2-fe6af800-251.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 23:37:43 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #scheme 23:37:51 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 23:38:51 soveran [~soveran@186.136.165.166] has joined #scheme 23:38:54 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.136.165.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:44 _pr0t0type_ [~prototype@cpe-69-201-142-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:43:31 <_pr0t0type_> hi everyone 23:43:32 <_pr0t0type_> I was reading a Haskell tutorial, and the author referred to scheme as "Almost functinoal." Is there a reason that Scheme is not considered fully functional. 23:43:43 _pr0t0type_: Yes. 23:43:56 _pr0t0type_: Scheme isn't hardcore like Haskell. In Haskell, you have to bend over backwards to have mutable state. 23:44:16 _pr0t0type_: In Scheme, mutable state is easy, albeit not particularly encouraged by the mainstream Scheme community. 23:45:03 <_pr0t0type_> hmm 23:45:32 <_pr0t0type_> I've been using Scheme for a few months now, and this is the first time I hear that term "mutable state," which probably explains why it's not used in Scheme much. 23:45:56 So you've never heard of set!, or other ! functions/macros? 23:46:16 <_pr0t0type_> oh, assignment 23:46:34 <_pr0t0type_> well yeah, the idea 23:46:42 <_pr0t0type_> but not that terminology I guess 23:46:46 *nods* 23:46:59 Not only assignment but also data mutation such as set-car! or vector-set!. 23:46:59 In idiomatic Scheme programs, one usually aims to keep use of ! functions/macros to a minimum. 23:47:14 What jcowan said. 23:47:38 There's also string-set!, but I can't say I've ever had a pressing need for that 23:47:55 ijp: There be dragons. 23:48:12 ijp: Mutable strings is probably one of the most controversial aspects of Scheme. 23:49:48 <_pr0t0type_> Okay, so Haskell (which is supposedly purely functinal) also allows mutable states, even though we have to bend over backwards 23:50:14 <_pr0t0type_> so, I still don't see how scheme is less functional. 23:50:18 _pr0t0type_: In Haskell, I believe you have to encapsulate all the state as monads. 23:50:29 _pr0t0type_: I don't know jack about monads, so that is all I have to say. 23:50:41 <_pr0t0type_> okay 23:50:50 <_pr0t0type_> well, we don't have to use haskell as a base 23:51:11 <_pr0t0type_> cky: you agreed that scheme is not purely functional 23:51:17 _pr0t0type_: That is correct. 23:51:24 <_pr0t0type_> so I a merely trying to understand why that is 23:51:25 Scheme is not purely functional, and that is by design. 23:57:56 monads appear to be a (very special, massive, and somewhat hackish) example of threading state. except instead of threading a value or a data type, you're threading all of Haskells known universe from function to function.