00:01:39 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-68-246.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:03:04 -!- mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:09:24 -!- tshauck [~tshauck@99-109-59-35.lightspeed.mssnks.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: tshauck] 00:10:36 ymasory [~ymasory@adsl-65-8-96-236.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 00:27:59 gienah [~mwright@ppp121-44-237-46.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 00:34:09 samth_ [~samth@c-24-128-51-63.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:41:50 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:47:01 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:52:35 -!- icebrain [~icebrain@co3-84-90-63-109.netvisao.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:56:23 icebrain [~icebrain@co3-84-90-63-109.netvisao.pt] has joined #scheme 00:56:24 -!- icebrain [~icebrain@co3-84-90-63-109.netvisao.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 01:19:11 -!- tricus [~tricus@h69-130-142-158.cncrtn.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:14 DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-138-78.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 01:33:09 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 01:36:44 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has joined #scheme 01:39:07 pjb_ [~pjb@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 01:53:17 eli: (responded to the https message) 01:53:30 offby1: What about the other question? 01:53:32 I am pretty sure those are required by AWS, but I could check. 01:53:51 -!- EM03 [~dfsdfdsf@unaffiliated/em03] has left #scheme 01:54:20 offby1: The thing is that it looks like it's exactly what the file has as "unreserved-mapping" -- but looking at the RFC, that's something internal that shouldn't really be used. 01:55:14 well, let me come up with some sort of probe -- maybe I'll make 128 calls, each with a specific ASCII character, and see which fail without escaping. 02:00:53 offby1: That would be a brute force way of finding out what they require without finding the docs, but works for me... 02:01:53 however writing dynamically adjustable code that is correct is hard too. 02:02:17 tshauck [~tshauck@99-109-59-35.lightspeed.mssnks.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:11:00 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravic@smtp.touchcut.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:17 I already spent a lot of time looking for docs, and failing, so brute force seems the only reasonable alternative. 02:11:26 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:13:31 Heh, I just got an "internal error" from their server 02:37:29 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-6-81.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:38:11 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-245.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:40:56 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-6-81.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:41:29 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-6-81.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:42:58 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-6-81.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:43:35 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-6-81.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:47:00 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 02:47:54 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 02:50:56 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-6-81.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:51:33 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-6-81.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:53:16 offby1: In that case, it's working... 02:54:32 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-6-81.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:02:55 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:03:18 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 03:05:02 ckrailo 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[~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 12:36:22 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 12:38:22 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 12:43:28 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has joined #scheme 12:55:52 -!- gienah [~mwright@ppp121-44-237-46.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:56:05 -!- sheikra [~wy@222.215.221.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:10:15 -!- samth_ [~samth@c-24-128-51-63.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:10:33 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:37 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:12:41 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:17:58 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:18:06 ecraven [~ecraven@dyn165230.wlan.jku.at] has joined #scheme 13:18:17 hello ;) is anyone here using imail (edwin)? 13:25:29 arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #scheme 13:25:46 13:26:31 -!- cbrannon [~cbrannon@gentoo/developer/cbrannon] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:32:08 replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:32:14 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:33:33 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:37:55 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #scheme 13:39:36 xwl [~user@123.108.223.27] has joined #scheme 13:39:50 -!- bokr [~eduska@109.110.59.220] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49:38 ecraven: dunno, but I think Riastradh used it 13:52:02 -!- nalaginrut [~nalaginru@183.15.186.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:52:02 cbrannon [~cbrannon@gentoo/developer/cbrannon] has joined #scheme 13:52:58 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 13:53:18 pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.250.231] has joined #scheme 13:59:57 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.69] has joined #scheme 13:59:57 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.69] has quit [Changing host] 13:59:57 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 14:01:09 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-164-105.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:03:21 Riastradh: Hello :) Does Imail support gpg or smime? 14:03:43 Also, should the browser show all imap folders on the server? I only see inbox and Trash (all folders start with . on my server, is that a problem?) 14:04:40 thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0634.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 14:05:45 ecraven: Take a peek at the sources <-: 14:05:58 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 14:06:32 No, and that depends on how the server interprets the pattern `%'. 14:21:43 leppie [~lolcow@196.210.170.119] has joined #scheme 14:22:28 -!- thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0634.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:27:39 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:30:48 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:33:46 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 14:42:12 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:42:36 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:44:52 -!- xwl [~user@123.108.223.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:45:20 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 14:46:56 thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0634.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 14:46:57 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-168.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:56:56 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 15:03:54 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:04:48 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:17 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 15:09:29 -!- paperkettles [~chris@ip72-195-132-159.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #scheme 15:11:22 Can somebody give me an example when would you use dynamic-wind? 15:13:02 ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.250] has joined #scheme 15:14:24 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:24 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 15:15:50 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:20:30 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:25:22 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 15:26:25 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 15:28:41 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 15:30:11 jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:39:04 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:40:19 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.69] has joined #scheme 15:40:19 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.69] has quit [Changing host] 15:40:19 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 15:40:41 HG` [~HG@p5DC04E33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:40:41 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:44 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:46:50 ohwow: to implement call-with-input-file 15:47:47 Why would one use DYNAMIC-WIND for CALL-WITH-INPUT-FILE? 15:50:24 Please elaborate 15:50:33 Riastradh: to close the file on exit (from the thunk) 15:50:56 CALL-WITH-INPUT-FILE may close the port only on normal return from the procedure. 15:51:53 (That, or on proving that the port will never again be used.) 15:52:45 So the only really sensible definition is (define (call-with-input-file pathname procedure) (let ((input-port (open-input-file pathname))) (begin0 (procedure input-port) (close-input-port input-port]. 15:52:51 first, i was thinking of `with-input-from-file', where the behavior i was thinking of was legal 15:53:16 but, you could (at least on some systems) reopen the file on re-entry using `dynamic-wind' 15:53:52 ohwow: example uses of dynamic-wind available here: http://www.scheme.com/tspl3/control.html 15:53:58 well, maybe not on any extant systems, but such systems could be imagined 15:54:11 No, because the second criterion is not `proving that control will never re-enter the procedure' but `proving that the port will never again be used'. 15:55:00 i understand that 15:55:00 Unless, of course, CLOSE-INPUT-PORT is a no-op, in which case you may as well just do (define (call-with-input-file pathname procedure) (procedure (open-input-file pathname))), but that's a stretch. 15:55:33 however, some systems may have the ability to reopen ports 15:55:37 ohwow: the first is a variant of what samth suggested. The second is dynamic (there called "fluid") bindin 15:55:38 pnkfelix: thanks 15:57:14 ohwow, that manual gives a bunch of pretty bad examples. That notion of FLUID-LET interferes with concurrency, and there are lots of things wrong with the UNWIND-PROTECT it gives; see the most recent entry in mentioning DYNAMIC-WIND and UNWIND-PROTECT for details. 15:59:01 -!- JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-96-236-166-197.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has left #scheme 16:00:02 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 16:02:04 -!- thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0634.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:07:17 I shall be dropping support for paredit.el in 16:07:17 GNU Emacs (and paredit.scm in Edwin). 16:07:19 huh 16:13:41 where did you find that? 16:13:58 http://mumble.net/~campbell/blag.txt 16:14:49 *penryu* makes sure it's not April 1st... 16:15:17 oh look. it is. 16:17:12 mm, the bit about making MIT Scheme use dynamic scope by default is a dead giveaway, I suppose 16:17:41 -!- PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:17:59 porting to MSVS and ditching GNU wasn't? :) 16:18:11 erm 16:18:13 damn 16:18:29 and a vi jab to top it all off. 16:18:41 a little something for everyone. 16:18:46 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.112.131] has joined #scheme 16:19:25 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-123.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:19:25 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 16:21:48 mmc1 [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 16:22:56 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:24:14 do microsoft have any tech that can benefit from paredit? 16:24:22 doubtful 16:24:31 what would MS people be doing editing lisp, anyway? 16:24:59 introducing L#? 16:25:23 ;) 16:25:43 it's only a joke until it hits the market. 16:26:00 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:26:40 i thought they used lispworks for XP or something 16:26:53 read about that on a forum, so... 16:26:56 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:00 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 16:41:49 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:42:25 dkim [~dkim@61.75.13.60] has joined #scheme 16:46:54 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:54:03 thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0634.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 16:54:40 -!- thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0634.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 17:07:12 -!- pandeiro [~pandeiro@187.105.250.231] has quit [Quit: Thanks, fellas] 17:07:17 penryu: Lol @ April Fools. 17:07:44 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 17:13:07 githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has joined #scheme 17:16:59 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-203-96.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 17:26:57 -!- dkim [~dkim@61.75.13.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:30:58 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-245.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:43:03 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 17:53:21 -!- ecraven [~ecraven@dyn165230.wlan.jku.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:30 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:57:33 Hydr4 [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 17:59:34 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 18:03:43 mutewit [~mutew@c-68-48-11-23.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:04:27 monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:06:34 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-68-246.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:34:56 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 18:36:29 emehrkay [~emehrkay@pool-74-107-100-63.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:39:33 Somelauw [~laurent@unaffiliated/somelauw] has joined #scheme 18:39:56 Golly, I thought that 2011-03-32 entry would be a dead giveaway every sixth word or so. 18:47:20 choas [~lars@p578F6D9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:48:36 wasn't until I saw the clues in the body that I bothered to look at the date. 18:48:57 but yeah. they just build on each other. 18:50:44 "modern vi conventions" is particularly funny given the grilling people who ask about using vim for scheme get here ;) 18:52:00 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #scheme 18:53:46 -!- twem2 [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:59:48 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC04E33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:00:00 twem2 [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has joined #scheme 19:05:12 -!- twem2 [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:13:00 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:15:51 twem2 [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has joined #scheme 19:31:48 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:29 PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has joined #scheme 19:46:25 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:46:55 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 19:47:03 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-179-10.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:49:29 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:50:00 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 19:50:08 thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0634.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 19:53:19 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-215-113.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:58:50 gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has joined #scheme 20:14:15 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:14 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:20:32 hoi 20:20:36 sheikra [~wy@222.215.221.45] has joined #scheme 20:20:52 foof: ping 20:21:25 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-203-96.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #scheme 20:24:27 -!- thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0634.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:25:59 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:35:31 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-245.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:38:48 o hai 20:39:16 a hoi 20:41:05 a harri hoi 20:42:13 *wingo* entranced by http://nyan.cat 20:43:51 Almost as entrancing as the Big Red Button 20:44:10 http://www.pixelscapes.com/spatulacity/button.htm 20:45:05 One of the oldest Things on the Web 20:50:57 the wikipedia tells me that the web is 20 years old now. yow! 20:55:55 *jcowan* still grieves for Gopher 20:58:23 its simplicity and classic beauty 20:58:51 arcfide still participates in it :) 20:59:17 True. 21:05:31 cky: Nah; not worth it... It's either a very short "it's a linked list", or a very long discussion on the merits of a recursive definition with diverging into a mutability discussion, and potentially data types in general. 21:07:21 -!- xale [~xale@2001:4b98:dc0:51:216:3eff:fef2:58dd] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:08:33 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:10:53 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #scheme 21:12:19 eli: Fair enough. *nods* 21:12:22 xale [~xale@2001:4b98:dc0:51:216:3eff:fef2:58dd] has joined #scheme 21:24:14 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 21:25:06 Anyone have an idea on whether the basic underpinnings of ports should be in an optional module or not? 21:25:13 (for R7RS WG1 purposes) 21:26:01 jcowan: several scheme implementation didn't have port or full r5rs ports implemented (on "strange" devices such as palm or iPad). 21:26:13 jcowan: so I guess it would be cleaner if it was entirely optional. 21:26:27 I'm actually only talking about the subset of port operations that don't include files. 21:27:31 Basic underpinnings of ports? 21:28:12 jcowan: Are you talking about string ports, blob ports, etc? 21:28:55 port?, {input,output,character,binary}-port?, port-open?, current-{input,output,error}-port, close-{input,output}-port, {read,peek}-{char,u8}, {char,u8}-ready, eof-object?. 21:29:14 That list, plus string and blob ports (if blob ports get voted in) 21:29:40 Binary I/O should be done with a different data type from character I/O. Mixing them is a mistake. 21:30:05 What about the annoyingly common case of reading binary and character stuff interwoven in the same file? 21:30:29 Layer a character I/O frob on top of a binary I/O frob. 21:31:00 That's problematic because of buffering issues. 21:31:12 No, it's not. Don't buffer the character I/O frob. No issues. 21:33:52 In any case, file operations will definitely be in a module. The question is whether the above "core ports" should be in another module. 21:35:02 pjb, cky, Riastradh? 21:35:29 If you can't get at one, there's no point. 21:36:31 And if you can get at one, I'd rather enforce providing those operations... 21:36:45 "get at one" what? 21:36:50 port. 21:37:07 You can always get at a string or blob port. 21:37:41 Then those operations should not be optional. 21:37:59 *jcowan* agrees, but so far the WG is not with me, or at least the vocal members. 21:39:01 But perhaps I misstate the case. 21:39:31 If the "core ports" operations are in a module, the string and blob port operations would be in the same module. So they would stand or fall together. 21:39:44 There's no point in having operations on ports if you can't get at them, and vice versa -- there's no point in getting at ports if you don't have operations on them. 21:41:24 emehrkay_ [~emehrkay@pool-74-107-100-63.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:41:30 jcowan_ [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:44:29 -!- PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:45:32 zanea_ [~zanea@219-89-168-65.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 21:46:41 -!- vk0 [~vk@ip-23-75.bnaa.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:48:27 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:48:30 -!- jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 21:49:04 vk0 [~vk@ip-23-75.bnaa.dk] has joined #scheme 21:50:22 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:50:22 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-215-113.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:50:22 -!- Hydr4 [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:50:22 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.112.131] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:50:23 -!- emehrkay [~emehrkay@pool-74-107-100-63.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:50:23 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:50:24 -!- zanea [~zanea@219-89-168-65.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:50:24 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:50:24 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-96-250-3-60.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:50:25 -!- dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:50:25 -!- ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:50:25 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-174-62-239-154.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:50:34 -!- emehrkay_ is now known as emehrkay 21:50:39 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-112-131.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:51:04 The question is: should a "small language" programmer be entitled to assume that core+string+blob are guaranteed to be available in any implementation? 21:53:00 PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has joined #scheme 21:53:24 jcowan: i think the question is "what is the intended purpose of the small scheme standard?" 21:53:44 a question that needs answering more generally, i'd say 21:54:10 samth: see the first section of http://scheme-reports.org/2009/working-group-1-charter.html 21:54:13 s/small//1 21:54:38 jcowan: that's really not an answer 21:54:51 What would count as an answer, then? 21:55:01 -!- rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:22 some statement of the value that a programmer would derive from knowing that a particular piece of software fully implements the small scheme standard 21:55:50 Riastradh: i agree, of course 21:56:45 ISTM that paragraph 2 answers that question, at least in part. 21:57:04 ! 21:57:19 dfeuer [~dfeuer@pool-71-178-51-188.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:57:20 -!- dfeuer [~dfeuer@pool-71-178-51-188.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:57:20 dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 21:57:24 Is there supposed to be any such thing as a `small language programmer', or is the small standard merely supposed to express a sufficient core of the compilation and evaluation semantics to understand how Scheme programs work? 21:57:25 -!- sheikra [~wy@222.215.221.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:57:26 today i learned that apple's iphone sandbox has as a component a scheme interpreter 21:57:31 to read policy definitions 21:57:44 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-174-62-239-154.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:57:45 wingo, not just iPhone; it's been in Mac OS X for a while too, although I don't know what uses it. 21:58:07 rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #scheme 21:58:09 kniu [~kniu@pool-96-250-3-60.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:58:36 http://dl.packetstormsecurity.net/papers/general/apple-sandbox.pdf appears to be an overview 21:58:56 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-119-83.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:59:39 I wonder whether it works any better than systrace did. 22:00:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-112-131.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:00:55 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 22:04:47 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:05:29 -!- githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:45 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:07:34 arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #scheme 22:07:35 ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 22:08:59 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-124-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:09:12 TinyScheme. Gaah. 22:09:18 They should be using Chibi, of course. 22:09:33 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.23.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:09:37 -!- Kajtek is now known as krysniand 22:09:47 thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.23.145] has joined #scheme 22:09:54 interesting paper, that! 22:10:04 It is. 22:10:13 *jcowan* queues it for printing tomorrow. 22:10:40 -!- krysniand is now known as Kajtek 22:11:43 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-119-83.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:11:43 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 22:12:04 -!- mmc1 [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:12:38 Granted, there is better doco for hacking Tiny than for Chibi ATM. 22:14:53 Oh, and you have access to the current input, output, and error ports even without the file module. 22:15:07 So the whole package is core-ports+string+blob+current. 22:21:54 elderK [~dgw@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 22:22:36 :) Anyone here from Christchurch, NZ? 22:22:37 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 22:29:34 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:05 tupi [~david@189.60.161.65] has joined #scheme 22:30:47 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-245.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:36:18 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 22:37:02 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 22:37:42 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:38 -!- Somelauw [~laurent@unaffiliated/somelauw] has quit [Quit: night] 22:39:01 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-53.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:41:11 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-124-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:41:11 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 22:43:15 -!- Kajtek is now known as KrystianD 22:43:53 -!- KrystianD is now known as Kajtek 22:44:48 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:46:20 jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 22:53:11 jcowan: the charter paragraph talks about "sharing of Scheme code" 22:53:19 *jcowan* nods. 22:53:40 but that raises the questions: "by whom", "for what purpose", "between what systems", and many others 22:54:03 when the original brandeis meeting happened, the answers to those questions were straightforward 22:54:18 i don't see any good answers for them these days 22:55:58 -!- emehrkay [~emehrkay@pool-74-107-100-63.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: emehrkay] 22:56:56 in particular, jcowan, imagine that I currently use some scheme (chez, or chicken, or gambit, or chibi) 22:57:10 *jcowan* nods. 22:57:11 what will be better about my life after the creation of small scheme? 22:58:56 If you want to write applications in Scheme, probably you don't care. You can pick an implementation and deliver on that, period. 22:59:29 But if you want to write libraries in Scheme so that more and better applications can be delivered, you currently have a rather impoverished subset of your chosen Scheme(s) to work with. 23:00:18 i don't see what you mean 23:00:22 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has joined #scheme 23:00:26 imagine i was the author of awful 23:00:34 how would my life get better? 23:00:56 It wouldn't, because awful is an application. 23:01:08 um 23:01:22 awful is a web app framework, and thus a library, to my way of thinking 23:01:29 a la ruby on rails 23:01:39 wow, the author of that apple sandbox paper's name is dionysus... how awesome is that? 23:02:05 i had to settle for the name of a mere mortal 23:02:31 turbofail: you could have changed for Greek parents earlier. 23:03:05 awful is much simpler than ruby on rails 23:03:25 not to mention that it is probably more awful 23:03:36 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 23:04:28 mario-goulart: i agree, but it's in the same category 23:04:40 Well, perhaps Alice would rather write her application-specific code in Gambit rather than Chicken. Having an awful for Gambit would make that possible; hopefully, awful could be easily ported from Chicken to R7RS, and CHicken and Gambit could easily provide an R7RS mode. 23:04:42 (i've never used awful; i only know it from this channel) 23:05:05 samth: ah, yes. It's for the web (thus awful) 23:05:27 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-53.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:29 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-53.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:05:56 jcowan: it sounds like what your saying is that i, the scheme programmer, would benefit if people wrote libraries that worked on my scheme 23:06:17 Yes, at least that seems to be the lesson of the last 20 years. 23:06:26 (of general PL history, not of Scheme history) 23:06:54 I heard someone say that R6RS was a success just because it induced Felix to add modules to Chicken. 23:07:03 i think that (a) this wasn't the original point of scheme standardization (b) it's never worked for Scheme and (c) small scheme helps with it not at all 23:07:55 but that's about felix's motivations, since he didn't adopt the r6 system 23:07:58 *mario-goulart* is lost 23:08:00 (a) was much before my time, so I have no idea what the original point was, though I am quite aware of the distinction between historical origin and current value. 23:09:10 felix could just as easily been motivated by python 23:09:21 But (at least according to this person) he wasn't. 23:09:30 What started the awful topic? 23:09:40 In any case, I don't care to pursue Felix's motives down a rathole. 23:09:40 awful + gambit? 23:09:57 Randomly chosen library + randomly chosen Scheme implementation. 23:10:18 ah, ok. :-) 23:10:52 Right now you can easily write rich libraries portable to the R6 Schemes, but if you want to go past them (like 3 out of the 4 mentioned), you are stuck with R5RS alone. 23:11:12 R6 was obviously sufficient for users, but apparently too expensive for implementers. The effort with R7 is to hit a happier medium. 23:11:29 s/mentioned/samth mentioned/ 23:12:43 or rather with r7-small. 23:13:19 With r7-large, the attempt is to make things *potentially* sufficient for users without loading up a huge implementation burden on implementers, partly by exploiting what has already been implemented. 23:13:41 -!- realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-53.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:14:16 -!- choas [~lars@p578F6D9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:15:40 jcowan: what happened in the time between r6 and now to make you think that there was some useful middle ground to be found? 23:15:54 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #scheme 23:16:41 That question might better be addressed to the current Steering Committee. 23:17:09 samth: the rather bad reception of r6. 23:17:27 Among implementers, that is. 23:17:39 pjb: the "bad" reaction to r6 precisely proves my point 23:17:57 Which point, and how? 23:18:07 that there isn't a middle ground to be found 23:18:26 That will only be known when we see the reception of r7 23:18:35 (among the r5 Schemes, that is) 23:20:34 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-53.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:22:20 samth: there's r5rs (small, accepted) on one side, and r6rs (big, rejected) on the other. 23:22:49 So the hope is that a conservative extension of r5 might be accepted too. 23:22:56 samth: r5rs is too small, r6rs is too big. We want r5rs < r7rs/small < r7rs/big < r6rs ; so not only a single middle ground, but two! 23:23:00 pjb: in reality, i would expect that the schemes that implemented r6 have more users than those that rejected it 23:23:11 I wouldn't know. 23:23:15 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 23:23:19 Quite probably. 23:23:55 almost certainly, if racket's student users are counted, it has more users than any other "scheme" 23:24:09 pjb: Actually it's r5rs < r7rs/small < r6rs < cl < r7rs/large 23:24:23 Quite so, although until recently MIT Scheme probably gave it a run for its money. 23:24:30 (Or didn't they use MIT Scheme at MIT?) 23:24:56 they did, but racket/htdp is used at 100+ colleges and 200+ high schools 23:25:09 *jcowan* nods. 23:25:31 whereas 6.001 surely never had more than 200 ppl 23:25:36 -!- PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:25:40 (given the size of mit) 23:25:46 I have only a guesstimate at the size of R7RS/large, but it's *large*. 23:26:28 And actually, even if r7rs/large is larger than r6rs it would still be good, since it's modular. 23:26:40 it seems that r7rs/small is too small to write real libraries in (if you agree that r5 was too small) 23:26:47 and r7rs/large is bigger than r6 23:26:57 and we're back to the essential tension 23:27:20 samth: well, we can fall back to r7rs/small. 23:27:40 also, if the point of r7 is to compromise among implementor who didn't like r6, why aren't they participating? 23:27:43 The idea, AFAIUI, is that implementors can implement r7rs/small, and you can load r7rs/large as a library. 23:28:10 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:28:12 pjb: for interesting values of library, that can't work (ffi, procedural macros, ...) 23:29:35 Jafet [~Jafet@175.145.129.79] has joined #scheme 23:29:36 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@175.145.129.79] has quit [Changing host] 23:29:36 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 23:30:09 samth: ffi should be in r7rs/small. 23:30:36 pjb: but the problem is that implementors have *technical* disagreement about all potentially-interesting features 23:30:49 this is what led some of them to reject r6 23:31:02 and it's why i don't understand what people expect out of r7 23:31:05 It should be rather scientific to find the core required to implement any library. 23:31:45 the intersection of the chicken ffi and the racket ffi is rather small 23:31:56 since one takes advantage of compiling to c 23:32:08 and the other takes advantage of a large external library 23:32:14 PreciousMetals [~Heart@unaffiliated/colours] has joined #scheme 23:33:42 githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:33:58 Note that R7RS large will be many libraries, since in R7RS all modules are optional, whether part of the small or the large language. 23:34:37 So every implementation of R7 small is technically an implementation of r7 large, at least by the current assumptions. 23:35:22 foof has proposed that an r7rs large implementation must implement a specific r7 package if it has some underlying support for the subject matter of the package (i.e. if it has native or SRFI or R6 hashtables, it must have R7 hashtables too), 23:35:37 but this is a vague and untestable conformance requirement, probably not more than a SHOULD. 23:36:40 DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-128-100.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 23:37:15 In any case, there will not be an FFI in either the small or the large language. 23:37:23 so r7/large is basically a big bunch of srfis 23:37:32 and won't include a key feature 23:37:43 The WG didn't agree it was a key feature. 23:38:43 Or at any rate, they voted to pass it to a future WG rather than accepting or rejecting it outright. 23:39:05 (The distinction between rejection and WG3 is not really operational, but does reflect attitudes.) 23:40:34 Unlike SRFIs, the R7 packages will have been approved by more than one person, and will be edited together with a view to conspectus. Some packages, however, will be SRFIs specifically. 23:41:02 replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 23:41:08 I am going to do my very best to squelch all bikeshed debates in favor of getting the semantics of a package right. 23:42:23 If the package does what you want, the way in which it is encoded as procedures or macros is easily changed for your own purposes. 23:42:41 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:45:58 -!- DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-128-100.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:46:24 DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-128-100.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 23:47:04 samth: There are people like Oleg, Dorai, Neil van Dyke and myself who write portable R5RS code. It is painful, but worst of all is the issue of wrapping it in a module, which needs to be done separately for every implementation we want to support. 23:47:33 If nothing else R7RS/small will fix that, which I consider to be a hugely worthwhile goal. 23:50:16 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 23:54:34 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]