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[~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 08:28:22 masm [~masm@bl15-68-246.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 08:38:42 what's a good scheme interview question? 08:46:27 I would start with "We're tired of asking questions. Please tell us about the Y combinator." 08:49:22 It's not like the answer really matters anyways: what an interviewer should be interested in is the general flavor of the response, and whether the interviewee displays decent critical thinking skills. 08:53:41 -!- XTL [~XTL@dsl-olubrasgw2-fe6af800-251.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:07:55 Bahman [~bahman@2.144.251.16] has joined #scheme 09:08:44 -!- Bahman [~bahman@2.144.251.16] has quit [Client Quit] 09:38:31 thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0634.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 09:44:36 -!- xwl [~user@123.108.223.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:49:00 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:58:26 ijp [~user@host86-148-144-43.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 09:58:56 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:50 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has joined #scheme 10:09:02 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-68-246.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:26:30 -!- thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0634.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:29:09 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:30:24 foof: one CL interview question I had was to tell what would I change to CL, what "defect" I'd like to change. I guess it can be translated for scheme, even if scheme is an easier target... 10:55:22 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 11:01:07 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 11:04:16 pjb: the answer there is tail recursion, so a scheme answer would have to be different. 11:09:17 thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0634.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 11:10:22 Actually, no. This is not a problem of CL, besides, almost all the implementation have it. But there are other things. 11:10:48 The multiple namespaces might be first on my list. 11:10:59 lack of in scheme, yes. 11:11:10 ... 11:11:14 :-) 11:12:20 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-7.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:28:14 Not having a tail recursion in a standart is kinda a problem of CL. 11:33:41 -!- rgrinberg__ [~rgrinberg@dsl-67-204-32-205.acanac.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:43:15 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-7.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 11:46:53 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 12:03:33 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 12:05:56 Arafangion [~arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 12:06:20 -!- thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0634.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:08:17 masm [~masm@bl15-68-246.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 12:08:33 thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0634.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 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for Emacs)] 14:16:47 thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0634.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 14:18:16 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-190-233-43.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 14:18:53 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-239-98.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:23:02 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 14:29:43 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 14:32:16 tupi_ [~david@189.60.161.65] has joined #scheme 14:40:51 is there something in the cl standard that makes tail recursion hard to implement? 14:41:52 Bahman [~bahman@2.144.251.16] has joined #scheme 14:42:39 Hi all! 14:47:33 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 14:50:09 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 14:50:33 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:50:50 gnomon 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19:06:49 evening, schemers 19:07:48 hello 19:20:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-45.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:20:45 JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-96-236-166-197.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:20:52 X-Scale` [email@89.180.168.58] has joined #scheme 19:21:59 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 19:22:21 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:30:43 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-13.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:36:24 ymasory [~ymasory@adsl-65-8-96-236.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 19:38:26 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:44:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:03 rgee [~rgrinberg@dsl-67-204-32-205.acanac.net] has joined #scheme 19:47:16 -!- rgee [~rgrinberg@dsl-67-204-32-205.acanac.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:50:20 HG`` 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8mins 7secs] 20:07:48 StephenFalken [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has joined #scheme 20:15:00 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-165-104.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:15:28 pothos [~pothos@111-240-165-106.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 20:19:40 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:30:28 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:01 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-245.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:48:19 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 20:53:05 -!- choas [~lars@p578F6CEF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:55:20 EM03 [~dfsdfdsf@unaffiliated/em03] has joined #scheme 20:55:57 any way in scheme to return the value of a function before its the last in the stack? 20:57:21 EM03: I guess you could do that with call/cc. 20:57:53 I like scheme and I understand its evaluation but hmmm sometimes I just need to return a value now 20:58:32 racket has something called "let/ec" which is ideal for that 20:59:05 I'm using chicken hmm 20:59:09 I'm depressed right now :P 20:59:14 web dev just sucks 20:59:40 rudybot: (let/ec return (for ([x (in-range 10)]) (displayln x) (when (= 5 x) (return 'outta-here)))) 20:59:40 *offby1: your sandbox is ready 20:59:40 *offby1: ; Value: outta-here 20:59:48 hmm, no output? 21:00:07 rudybot: (displayln "ahoy") 21:00:07 *offby1: ; stdout: "0\n1\n2\n3\n4\n5\nahoy\n" 21:00:15 hm, buffered. Weird. 21:01:40 well I like languages where the last evaluation is the return value 21:02:16 EM03: Racket's `let/ec' is creating an "escape continuation", you can use a plain continuation too. (And if you're using chicken, then a plain continuation should be just as cheap.) 21:02:27 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #scheme 21:02:41 plain continuations are super expensive though 21:02:48 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-132.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:02:49 depends on your impl, no? 21:03:03 yea, i meant in racket 21:03:05 and scheme is the only "somewhat" cool language that you can do web dev in rather painlessly 21:03:20 That's false. 21:03:21 ruby isn't cool? :-) 21:03:25 Common Lisp is another one. 21:03:27 I don't think it is :P 21:03:48 if I use ruby I might as well use PHP 21:04:15 I really wanted to use O'caml but the fast cgi stuff is all barebones and just no documentation 21:04:21 pjb: I consider myself as someone who has op priviliges in this channel as a coincidence, otherwise I would seriously consider kicking you. 21:04:32 and I'm not experienced enough in that language to source hunt and learn how fastcgi works 21:04:35 -!- Arafangion [~arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:04:39 If all you do here is troll for CL, then please just go do it someplace else. 21:05:13 That's not all I do. Sometimes I advise scheme and help newbies. 21:05:30 Yes, but you often get down to trolling, and it's getting tediously annoying. 21:05:33 But you must keep things in perpective. The serious lisp is Common Lisp. 21:05:42 Not in this context. 21:06:01 Here, CL is only serious in keeping backward compatibility with some serious design mistakes. 21:06:20 Which make it better for real applications. 21:06:27 cl is not even an option right now, I only have a intermediate level scheme knowledge and barely that :P 21:06:53 but i just hate the whole php/rubypython stuff I have used for the past 10 years, I like elegance and minimalism 21:06:55 EM03: I'm not saying you should use CL. I'm only saying that scheme is not the ONLY option. 21:07:01 pjb: Again -- in *this* context -- this is just plain wrong. Period. 21:07:16 eli: you're wrong. 21:07:25 I could say the exact same thing on Racket vs other Scheme implementations, but I don't since *this* context is different. 21:08:07 (Note for example, that I could easily troll for racket after EM03's question, but I didn't.) 21:08:35 The other day you trolled that Racket was a scheme. You must stay consistent! 21:08:52 Yes, Racket is a Scheme implementation. That's not changed. 21:09:06 But trolling it as the only serious one is just trolling. 21:09:18 In any case -- and I'm very serious here -- if you consider CL as the only "serious" language in the Lisp family, then you should not be here. 21:09:58 come on guys :( why the arguing 21:09:59 kumbaya la la la 21:10:05 all I want is a bit of mentoring 21:10:06 eli: so you're addressing the wrong target. It was EM03 who said first that scheme was the ONLY "somewhat" cool language -that you can do web dev in a rather painlessly. 21:10:36 EM03: I suspect it wouldn't be too hard to escape via call/cc. 21:10:39 sorry for saying only, only was subjective on my part 21:10:40 pjb: Yes he was; and if jonrafkind's opinion was that ruby is cool too, and he'd express that, I'd shout just the same. 21:10:50 It's inappropriate in this context. 21:10:51 EM03: on the other hand, you might be able to restructure your code so that you don't _need_ to escape. 21:11:03 ruby is cool, but I love the minimalism of scheme 21:11:04 eli: you're silly and spamming the channel. 21:11:10 eli: stop it! 21:11:26 And, incidentally, it's one of the ways in which c.l.s (and c.l.l) were reduced to the drivel they are at. 21:12:07 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #scheme 21:12:13 pjb: OK, you pushed me to it. Please consider the above a serious warning when you decide to start trolling next time. 21:13:30 eli: I don't care if you kick me: I know that the majority of newbies like and benefit from my contributions. 21:13:41 *eli* notes that he could have easily started a similar flamewar re pjb's completely bogus ideas on symbols in scheme which he currently expresses on #lisp. 21:14:08 pjb: Each time you troll for CL you reduce the utility of this channel. That's a reason to kick you. 21:14:24 Stop it! You're silly. 21:14:40 I don't troll for CL, I just recall some basic fact. 21:14:50 I need to continue reading sicp 21:14:54 never did finish it 21:15:15 EM03: and watch the videos, they motivate continuing reading! :-) 21:15:32 so do you think scheme is a good idea for web dev? or not a language suited well? I have had some differing opinions 21:15:52 EM03: scheme is definitely good for web dev. (Only it's not the ONLY one). 21:16:13 HG` [~HG@p5DC04E33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:17:45 depends -- I hope eli doesn't kick me :) but I find that racket doesn't have quite as much library support as, say Python, for some stuff I'd like. 21:18:02 For example: I want to talk to Amazon's AWS; the only code to do that, as far as I know, is what I'm writing myself 21:18:19 But in lisp, it's easy to write the libraries you need if they don't already exist. 21:18:19 a more popular language would be more likely to have ready-to-go libraries for that sorta stuff. 21:19:30 EM03: if you're writing code more for fun than for the real world, scheme is probably fine. 21:19:52 But if you're doing this at a company, there's going to be pressure to use a more "normal" language 21:20:02 unless your co-workers are remarkably enlightened :) 21:20:56 offby1: What's special about AWS? 21:21:48 the s3 apis 21:21:59 they require that requests be signed with HMAC-SHA1 (or HMAC-SHA256), and I found that hard to do with the existing code that does url form encoding 21:22:21 I wound up reimplementing some of it myself in order to have complete control over what gets escaped and how, since AWS is fussy about that 21:22:30 Is that the only problem? 21:22:42 it's the only problem I can think of. 21:22:42 I've been meaning to write up my experience but haven't gotten around to it 21:23:00 offby1: Thomas Hintz is writing a Chicken egg for AWS 21:23:11 sjamaan: ha, interesting 21:23:20 offby1: Can you describe what is it exactly that became a problem? 21:23:52 off the top of my head -- I think alist->form-urlencoded escaped spaces as +, but aws wants %20. 21:23:54 something like that. 21:24:22 I could run every possible ascii character through my encoder, and also alist->form-urlencoded, and see how they differ 21:25:01 Then you're probably using the wrong procedure 21:25:13 form-urlencoded is a variant of normal URL encoding which requires the + 21:25:15 could be. But I couldn't find anything else 21:25:37 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@adsl-65-8-96-236.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:25:56 offby1: Looking at the code, I concur with sjamaan. 21:27:09 huh 21:27:34 offby1: Perhaps `uri-userinfo-encode' is the one you're looking for 21:27:36 ? 21:28:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-132.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:28:22 No, probably not that. 21:29:22 offby1: Re "I could run every possible ..." -- it'd be helpful if you do that. I can find some encoding that is right for you, or add a new one. 21:30:04 form-urlencoding is actually part of the HTML specification which says how form values should be encoded in the query component of an URI 21:30:30 eli: workin' on it 21:30:51 sjamaan: ... and that requires space to be ecoded as "+"? 21:31:07 yeah 21:31:30 It's a sort of layer on top of URIs, but not quite because it doesn't really stack nicely 21:31:51 sjamaan: So is there a name for whatever it is that offby1/AWS needs? 21:31:53 (actual plus characters in the content must be percent-encoded, for example, so you can't do it in layers) 21:32:12 application/x-www-form-urlencoded, I think 21:32:47 There's a few places where it's documented. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#h-17.13.4.1 and http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms/#serialize-urlencode 21:33:13 Then there's also a part in HTML which says you should avoid using & as separator (http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/appendix/notes.html#h-B.2.2) 21:33:37 And there's an IETF draft by Hoehrmann which tried to properly standardize this, but it expired 21:33:39 -!- tshauck [~tshauck@99-109-59-35.lightspeed.mssnks.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: tshauck] 21:33:43 sjamaan: I'm confused. 21:33:51 It is confusing 21:34:13 According to that page (and the documentation in our code), application/x-www-form-urlencoded *is* the encoding that requires that spaces are encoded as "+". 21:34:14 yep 21:34:21 yes 21:34:38 So I'm asking whether there's some other known encoding name which offby1 is talking about. 21:35:58 I didn't read Amazon's docs, but it sounds like they just chose regular URI encoding with a separator in the query string 21:36:11 (they probably just didn't read the specs properly) 21:37:02 It isn't form data sent by HTML, so they're basically free to define it to work whatever way they want 21:37:12 soveran [~soveran@186.18.215.167] has joined #scheme 21:37:52 offby1: If sjamaan's guess is correct, then perhaps the thing you're looking for is `uri-encode'... 21:38:17 Not quite, since the separator needs to be treated differently 21:38:52 Well, modulo the separator. 21:39:00 s 21:39:05 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.18.215.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:16 Yeah, it's probably: uri-encode all the pieces individually and then combine with the unencoded separator 21:40:06 IOW, perhaps there is a need for something like `alist->urlencoded' which is similar to `alist->form-urlencoded', except for the slightly different encoding. 21:40:45 BTW, re the "&" as a separator -- we've been through that fight. Finally made it go with "&" as the default since ";" caused way too much trouble. 21:40:51 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:41:46 eli: OK, the only differences I see are: 1) I escape space as %20; alist->form-urlencoded uses + 21:41:52 2) I escape * as %2A; alist->form-urlencoded uses * 21:41:57 3) I leave ~ alone; alist->form-urlencoded escapes it to %7F 21:42:00 that is all 21:45:40 offby1: And is that all required by AWS? 21:45:40 mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 21:47:41 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:57:51 offby1: ? 21:58:21 offby1: (Also, see the question on the dev list. You might be one of the few people who would care about it.) 21:58:22 tshauck [~tshauck@99-109-59-35.lightspeed.mssnks.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:59:24 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-77-23.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:55 chemuduguntar [~ravic@smtp.touchcut.com] has joined #scheme 22:04:22 icebrain [~icebrain@co3-84-90-63-109.netvisao.pt] has joined #scheme 22:17:02 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC04E33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:18:31 -!- rgee [~rgrinberg@dsl-67-204-32-205.acanac.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:18:39 -!- icebrain [~icebrain@co3-84-90-63-109.netvisao.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:19:33 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-236-246.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:20 ASau [~user@95-26-236-246.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 22:20:43 rgee [~rgrinberg@dsl-67-204-32-205.acanac.net] has joined #scheme 22:21:45 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:24:01 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C43883.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:26:23 icebrain [~icebrain@co3-84-90-63-109.netvisao.pt] has joined #scheme 22:30:44 bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-206-245.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:31:33 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:42:17 -!- tab1ta [~tab1ta@host90-8-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:45 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 22:57:24 -!- rgee [~rgrinberg@dsl-67-204-32-205.acanac.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:14:27 rgee [~rgrinberg@dsl-67-204-32-205.acanac.net] has joined #scheme 23:24:40 -!- ijp [~user@host86-148-144-43.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:25:28 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:44:02 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-165-106.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:52:22 Arafangion [~arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 23:59:10 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]