00:03:01 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03:24 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has joined #scheme 00:06:23 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:08:04 -!- minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:08:10 -!- elly [debian-tor@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:09:11 gremset_ [ubuntu@117.192.98.159] has joined #scheme 00:09:47 -!- gremset [ubuntu@117.192.107.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:13 elly [debian-tor@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 00:10:50 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:13:38 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-105-106.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:13:46 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-96-250-3-60.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:08 kniu [~kniu@pool-96-250-3-60.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:15:35 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:19:14 ssbr [scorchsabe@24-246-57-148.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 00:19:40 Is Racket's racket/match available in other schemes? Does it have some other name I could look for? 00:20:05 I seem to recall something about it being implemented using R6RS scheme, but I can't find anything 00:20:09 No, but there's . 00:20:24 ssbr: there are a number of pattern matchers implemented for r6rs 00:21:01 OK, pattern matchers in general I guess. 00:21:28 there's some big packaging of r6rs libraries that has a pattern matcher in it 00:21:43 I'd probably prefer one written in r5rs anyway 00:21:53 docs would be good. maybe something on github? 00:22:05 Blagh, I'll look some more 00:22:35 when I google, I only find stuff for syntax-rules pattern matching, though 00:22:52 for r5rs, see the link Riastradh posted 00:25:01 is it normal to have scheme source files floating around without a source control repo or web page or such? 00:25:33 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:26:18 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 00:26:31 ssbr: for some people 00:27:34 Gee, is it already a general expectation that if you don't have some stupid painfully javascripty cssy obnoxious fancy automatic git browserifier then you don't exist? 00:27:55 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-232.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:27:59 Riastradh: I wouldn't put it that way. 00:28:13 But I guess (and I am surprised to learn this) I do expect to know that code has a home 00:28:23 and being able to fork a repo is always cool 00:28:33 that said, this is what I'm going to use 00:28:44 Riastradh: if you aren't using source control, that's a big red flag 00:29:04 That's a separate problem, samth. 00:29:24 Riastradh: it's hardly separate if it's part of what I was asking about 00:29:57 Sorry, ssbr, I was reacting to your request in particular for something on github. 00:29:59 not serving your code out of a repo != not using a repo 00:30:18 Riastradh: I wouldn't care if it was google code. A place to live that won't die tomorrow. 00:30:38 A random source file off of a website I've never heard of is not trust-inspiring 00:30:55 ssbr: foof is not "nobody" in the Scheme world. 00:30:56 And a random source file off github is?? 00:30:56 so do not trust it :) 00:31:05 -!- Sgeo__ [~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:31:11 Riastradh: I can probably trust github to persist, sure 00:31:21 cky: I didn't say he was nobody, I just said I hadn't heard of the website 00:31:33 This is the first I've heard of foof. 00:31:44 (does he run it?) 00:32:11 ssbr: synthcode.com is foof's domain, yes. 00:32:28 Bizarre; what is it about these fly-by-night joints (e.g. github) that inspire such confidence? 00:32:50 klutometis: It really doesn't take much. 00:32:58 klutometis: there's an assumption there that i don't think is justified 00:33:06 ie, that github is fly-by-night 00:33:07 klutometis: github's survival or not doesn't bother me; the nice thing about git is that copies of the repo is kept in many placen. 00:33:11 *places 00:33:24 copies of foof's code are kept in many places too :) 00:33:27 Again, it was website I've never heard of, versus, for example, github. Better the devil you know. 00:33:29 elly: That too. 00:33:35 cky: Indeed. 00:33:45 the domain name doesn't say anything about the quality of the content in this instance, ssbr 00:33:56 elly: Exactly. 00:34:02 It says absolutely nothing. 00:34:03 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:34:08 elly: Actually, I'd say anything from synthcode.com is likely to be quality Scheme code. ;-) 00:34:18 Well, nyerf, there's that. 00:34:43 Ditto with, say, mumble.net/~campbell, or barzilay.org. :-P 00:35:15 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:35:26 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has joined #scheme 00:35:30 ssbr: I mean, neither does github.com... 00:35:32 samth: Ok; but the domain was created merely on 09-Oct-07. Why do you think it will outlive e.g. usenet and other dinosaurs? 00:35:40 DrDuck [~duck@216.186.151.63] has joined #scheme 00:35:48 elly: It says that they use source control. It says that in particular, they use git. 00:36:00 klutometis: usenet is already dead! ;) 00:36:08 That's a bit more than "the person was able to get web hosting", at least to me. 00:36:17 *elly* is skeptical :P 00:36:20 klutometis: i don't have evidence of that, but it seems likely 00:36:36 ssbr: Would you have even more confidence in a project if it were hosted on, say, savannah.gnu.org or savanna.nongnu.org? 00:36:39 *savannah 00:36:41 elly: Usenet is dead; long live Google Groups, etc. 00:37:09 when i see something using github, i learn that they use modern source control and take advantage of useful tools for free-software collaboration 00:37:11 ssbr: After all, GNU has been around a _LOT_ longer than GitHub. :-P 00:37:19 when i see something on a random website, i don't learn that 00:37:28 cky: Well, confidence that I'd be able to access the files? Sure. 00:37:51 How do you conclude from one's use of github that one `takes advantage' of useful tools for free software collaboration, samth? 00:37:53 Confidence that the project was still maintained... maybe not as much. A lot of projects die on the older hosting sites. Then again, it's real easy to check, just visit the site. 00:38:12 rramsden [~rramsden@173.180.109.6] has joined #scheme 00:38:25 Either of those would have been and probably would still be happier. 00:38:37 Frankly I think using github is a terrible indicator of taking advantage of useful tools because the web site is so tremendously badly designed. 00:39:17 Riastradh: what about gitorious.org ? 00:39:21 klutometis: yeah, long live google groups :) 00:39:32 Riastradh: what about git.repo.i2p? :) 00:39:35 I don't know, pjb, I haven't seen that. 00:39:44 (their web UI is useable through w3m! I should sign up for it and try it) 00:39:45 I don't know, elly, I haven't seen that. 00:40:52 the downside of using it would be that like six people on the entire internet can get to it :) 00:41:15 hagh 00:41:21 what are the other similar libs I could look into? 00:41:23 elly: Which root server network is .i2p on? ORSC? 00:41:51 cky: i2p 00:41:53 What's very frustrating to me about Git is that it is not straightforward to put a repository on one's own generic web server. 00:42:05 (Rather, that is one of my multitudinous frustrations with Git.) 00:42:05 -!- samth [~samth@soenat3.cse.ucsc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:42:05 it's not a dns tld, it's a pseudo-zone used by an anonymizing overlay 00:42:45 Oh, I see. 00:42:54 Riastradh: what do you use? I thought Fossil was kind of nice for that. 00:42:58 it is like tor but different, basically :) 00:43:22 I mainly use Git, grudgingly. 00:43:55 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:44:14 Fossil's UI doesn't strike me as being as actively hostile to its users as Git's, but Fossil is still far too rough around the edges performancewise and UIwise. 00:44:34 I also use git, not as grudgingly as Riastradh 00:44:41 having tried hg, darcs, and mtn and liked them all less 00:45:10 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:46:38 I'm not a VCS-geek, so I don't want to have to learn 10 different ones. I've already spent much time learning CVS, Subversion, and Git, and have no real inclination to learn another one. 00:46:59 I vaguely know how to use Mercurial from dealing with OpenJDK and Chibi, but that's about it. 00:47:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:48:47 It is not pleasant to notice that this version of match lacks some of the features I was hoping for from Racket's :S 00:48:51 (but I can't use Racket) 00:48:52 I hate using revision control systems. It's a terrible distraction from the real problems I'm trying to work on, and, particularly in the case of Git's overcomplicated mental model, a terrible intrusion on the mental capacity I have to think about problems. 00:49:13 (in particular I was hoping to be able to use hash table stuff because I remembered that this worked with chicken scheme) 00:50:16 it bothers me that 'mtn genkey' forces a fixed key size 00:51:25 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.221.149] has joined #scheme 00:51:38 DrAfk [~duck@216.186.151.63] has joined #scheme 00:54:09 -!- ijp [~user@host86-148-151-152.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has left #scheme 00:56:15 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.232.62] has joined #scheme 00:57:31 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.221.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:57:31 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 01:00:47 tricus [~tricus@h69-130-142-158.cncrtn.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #scheme 01:01:44 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:02:04 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:03:38 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 01:07:28 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:16:37 -!- gremset_ [ubuntu@117.192.98.159] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 01:16:58 ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:16:59 gremset [ubuntu@117.192.98.159] has joined #scheme 01:18:35 ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-173-57-102-171.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:18:39 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@21.149.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:27:23 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:30:05 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:32:05 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #scheme 01:36:52 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: AWWWAAAAYYYY] 01:44:12 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:46:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.232.62] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:46:50 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.232.62] has joined #scheme 01:46:51 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 01:48:57 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:53:18 -!- tricus [~tricus@h69-130-142-158.cncrtn.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:53:32 -!- rramsden [~rramsden@173.180.109.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:06:10 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 02:11:16 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 02:16:16 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-75-122.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:25:14 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 02:42:33 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-105-106.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 02:48:04 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 02:49:22 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 02:51:44 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:53:19 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 02:54:17 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 03:03:17 pumpkin [~copumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:03:17 -!- pumpkin [~copumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 03:03:17 pumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 03:04:35 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:04:36 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:14 -!- quackwoof [~copumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:08:42 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 03:09:32 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:10:08 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.18.135] has joined #scheme 03:14:43 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:14:59 -!- sjamaan [~sjamaan@netbsd/developer/sjamaan] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:15:13 rramsden [~rramsden@173.180.109.6] has joined #scheme 03:18:05 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 03:19:48 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 03:21:15 Checkie [~checkie@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 03:22:49 sjamaan [~sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 03:22:49 -!- sjamaan [~sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has quit [Changing host] 03:22:49 sjamaan [~sjamaan@netbsd/developer/sjamaan] has joined #scheme 03:27:01 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:28:09 ssbr: The repo for upstream match.scm is the chibi-scheme repo, but it's replicated by others. 03:29:01 You can effect hash-table matchign with the ? escape, but there's no pretty syntax for it. 03:32:38 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 03:33:06 I thought lisp was the metaprogramming language? Can't you write a pretty syntax in scheme? 03:37:58 pjb: Yes, but you have to write it :) 03:38:55 -!- gremset [ubuntu@117.192.98.159] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 03:39:12 gremset [ubuntu@117.192.98.159] has joined #scheme 03:40:57 samth [~samth@c-69-181-232-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:43:38 -!- gremset [ubuntu@117.192.98.159] has quit [Client Quit] 03:43:54 gremset [ubuntu@117.192.98.159] has joined #scheme 03:46:04 ssbr: You can use something like (? hash? (= (cut hash-table-ref <> key1) pat1) (= (cut hash-table-ref <> key2) pat2)) 03:48:53 Optionally with your own shortcut syntax for the -ref's since that's just plain Scheme. 03:49:08 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 03:49:47 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:54:53 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 04:00:44 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 04:00:44 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 04:07:50 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:24:06 bokr [~eduska@109.110.57.143] has joined #scheme 04:33:41 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 05:08:58 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:14:28 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #scheme 05:15:55 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Client Quit] 05:24:34 -!- gremset [ubuntu@117.192.98.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:30:24 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-202-195.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:32:04 ASau [~user@95-24-202-195.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 05:37:03 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.207.207] has joined #scheme 05:37:10 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.232.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:37:11 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 05:38:19 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:41:41 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:42:06 copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 05:42:06 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:42:06 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 05:49:38 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:56:49 -!- JimmyRcom [~jimmy@adsl-75-53-45-212.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:02:50 -!- DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-39-232.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:04:47 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:13:44 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:15:13 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.207.207] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:16:26 JimmyRcom [~jimmy@adsl-75-53-46-218.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:21:22 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 06:33:19 DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-55-210.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 06:33:35 'morning. 06:48:47 -!- mmc1 [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:52:50 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 06:53:20 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 06:58:14 stis [~stis@host-90-235-9-224.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 07:09:25 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:12:12 EbiDK [511bd602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.27.214.2] has joined #scheme 07:17:44 -!- samth [~samth@c-69-181-232-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:20:12 -!- amoe [~amoe@cpc1-brig13-0-0-cust658.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28:44 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 07:35:16 -!- monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hello] 07:36:17 -!- Checkie [~checkie@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:36:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-76.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:37:42 leo2007 [~leo@111.194.92.32] has joined #scheme 07:47:06 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #scheme 07:47:27 kfx_daddy [4a6fc587@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.111.197.135] has joined #scheme 07:54:27 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 07:55:51 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:05:04 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #scheme 08:09:34 atomx` [~user@86.35.150.23] has joined #scheme 08:17:41 -!- jrtayloriv [~jrtaylori@207-118-44-153.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:22:53 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:24:01 Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 08:24:01 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 08:24:01 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 08:26:12 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:26:29 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 08:29:32 i am still looking for a system to be able to debug scheme programs trhat contain cons-stream (delay) calls, but I did not find yer 08:29:34 yet 08:31:29 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.194.92.32] has quit [Quit: battery dead] 08:40:46 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #scheme 08:40:59 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:41:16 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 08:48:18 -!- minsa [~minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:01:33 masm [~masm@bl16-168-198.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 09:09:13 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:15:05 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:16:14 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #scheme 09:24:25 atomx`: any specific issue that you're trying to debug? 09:25:59 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 09:31:16 amoe [~amoe@cpc1-brig13-0-0-cust658.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 09:39:28 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 09:41:32 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 09:41:45 debug a programthat has no bug 09:41:58 just to see the frames with bindings 09:46:19 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 09:46:48 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 09:47:55 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:49:46 stis_ [~stis@host-95-194-21-142.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 09:50:45 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-9-224.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:52:58 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #scheme 10:02:05 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:07:15 -!- bokr [~eduska@109.110.57.143] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:12:21 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.178.201.45] has joined #scheme 10:12:21 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.178.201.45] has quit [Changing host] 10:12:21 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 10:13:26 hi, I am trying to understand this example of backtracking with continuations: http://matt.might.net/articles/programming-with-continuations--exceptions-backtracking-search-threads-generators-coroutines/amb.scm 10:13:27 http://tinyurl.com/3zrukh3 10:14:00 skeptical_p [~rononovsk@109.65.184.67] has joined #scheme 10:15:01 my question is, once you've saved a given continuation to a variable, you can still modify that contination, right? so assumming I have a (current-continuation) procedure, (let ((cc (current-continuation))) just sets a pointer to my current continuation, but any set! directive while in it will modify it. Am I correct? 10:17:11 different people understand it differently, but i like to think of it as cal/cc capturing the stack, but it still shares the heap with all other continuations 10:17:30 set! can be a way of modifying the heap 10:18:16 yeah, I don't know C (I know what you are talking about, but I am not sure you know what you mean) 10:18:42 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 10:18:51 sorry, I mean I am not sure *I* know what you mean, didn't mean to insult you so early in our relationship 10:19:49 wingo, in scheme terms, what is in the stack and what is in the heap? if I create a scope with let, that's in the stack? 10:19:59 hehe, i didn't even notice :) 10:20:34 kandinski: maybe that's not the right way to explain it then, if those aren't concepts you're familiar with... 10:20:58 because in this example, it seems to me that one set! modifies a global structure, and another set! is only modifying an in-local-scope variable 10:22:42 how about this 10:22:53 a continuation doesn't capture the value of variables, it captures their identity 10:23:14 for lexically-bound variables that are never set, this is the same 10:23:39 but if a variable is set!, then the new value must be visible in continuations that have captured that variable's identity 10:24:43 yeah, gotcha. I know Python where the only continuation-like mechanism is in generators, the yield directive 10:24:59 there you capture the continuation after having modified all the state 10:25:12 what threw me is that here you can capture a continuation and modify it afterwards 10:26:31 thanks for the explanation, it's quite clear. What's captured is not what the variables know, but who they are. (restating your point in different words) 10:27:27 spiffy? 10:27:41 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:27:48 how do continuation based server perform vs threaded or event for processing many request at same time? 10:34:15 -!- _p4bl0 [~user@berthold.shebang.ws] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:37:05 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-194-21-142.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:37:11 stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-194-108.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 10:37:18 kfx_daddy: false dichotomy. you could implement a continuation based networking interface either based on threaded (very silly) or event-driven means. The most important bit is probably how concurrency is handled at the low level, i.e. threads and blocking calls, select, epoll, kqueue, etc. 10:47:07 ijp [~user@host86-148-151-152.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 10:48:30 oh 10:48:39 so say cherokee uses epoll 10:48:43 does spiffy? 10:48:49 the chicken web server? 10:48:54 or sunet? 10:48:58 or racket web 10:49:02 hmm 10:50:37 I generally prefer things with a wide variety of options. 10:50:48 select is nice if you want good cross-platform support. It doesn't scale so hot IIRC 10:50:56 kfx_daddy: rooster uses epoll 10:51:16 -!- JimmyRcom [~jimmy@adsl-75-53-46-218.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:51:17 poll is usually sufficient tho 10:52:25 http://sheddingbikes.com/posts/1280829388.html 11:03:16 mult platform is bad goal 11:03:28 bsd linux forget rest 11:03:35 if not bsd or linux 11:03:39 why worry 11:04:23 kfx_daddy: are you asking for advice or planning to implement a web server? 11:06:01 -!- kfx_daddy [4a6fc587@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.111.197.135] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:09:02 kandinski: see this for a thorough explanation of a very similar `amb' implementation: http://pl.barzilay.org/lec27.txt 11:09:14 It also explains how to implement generators. 11:15:39 lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 11:17:11 kuribas [~user@d54C43D8A.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 11:23:42 _p4bl0 [~user@berthold.shebang.ws] has joined #scheme 11:26:18 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:26:54 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 11:40:55 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-51-64-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 11:45:07 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-194-108.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:45:11 stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-194-108.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 11:51:03 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: zZzZzZzZzZz] 11:53:35 -!- hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:08:48 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-198-194-108.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:09:01 stis_ [~stis@host-95-194-47-135.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 12:14:34 MengZhang [~MengZhang@222.66.175.242] has joined #scheme 12:20:22 -!- lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:22:46 stis__ [~stis@host-95-194-40-220.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 12:22:48 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-194-47-135.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:27:43 eli: thanks, will read it 12:31:37 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #scheme 12:32:50 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 12:35:43 kandinski: I think Hacker News is an examplar of why *not* to use continuation-based web frameworks, btw. (Its links expire in ten minutes sometimes.) 12:35:49 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 12:37:41 -!- stis__ [~stis@host-95-194-40-220.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:38:55 edw: It doesn't use a continuation web server IIRC. 12:40:56 Reading the beginning of the article, it seems headed in that direction. And i think I read it five years ago. 12:40:58 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@c-71-192-163-167.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 12:41:47 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 12:42:00 But whether it's closures or continuations, it's a bad idea. 12:43:37 I wrote a framework a la Arc's and I realized that I spent as much time fighting against the nature of the supposedly wonderful concept as I did benefitting from it. And let's not even talk about how it encourages people to create deeply tunneled, wizard-like web apps. 12:46:08 edw: I think it was kfx_daddy that was all about continuations in web servers and their performance consequences. I am stil just learning how to program with continuations. 12:46:25 but people who use Seaside seem to be crazy happy about it, fwiw. 12:46:42 edw: The question of when to expire a session is independent of the web server's implementation. 12:46:54 *kandinski* only knows what he reads on HN, that is, nothing 12:47:03 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C43D8A.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:47:17 slom [~sloma@port-87-234-239-162.static.qsc.de] has joined #scheme 12:48:35 edw: There's obviously also the question of how it's implemented -- whether the continuations disappear when you restart the server. (The racket web server has serializeable continuations that cover that, and means that you worries about expiring sessions are practically gone -- assuming you want inifnite sessions.) 12:55:10 eli: Whoa, I'm having a flashback to '05 here. I think the problems it solves aren't worth the complexity you need to deal with, but more than that, it doesn't actually encourage the development of good apps, whether from a technical or user perspective. And I don't think the way apps are built today really needs these things. 12:56:23 I'm a bit lost in this discussion. I assumed when contonuation-based networking was mentioned, it was in reference to e.g. using continuations to implement coroutines that can asynchronously handle networking code 12:56:38 and it wouldn't really make sense to talk about this discouraging session persistence or anything 12:57:34 is that about right, or is there something I should read to catch up? 12:57:49 -!- DrAfk [~duck@216.186.151.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:58:16 -!- DrDuck [~duck@216.186.151.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:59:40 ssbr: Ah, well that's fine. But even then, you need to understand the time and space complexity ramifications of using these things. 13:03:41 kuribas [~user@d54C43D8A.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 13:05:22 -!- slom [~sloma@port-87-234-239-162.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:08:28 edw: If by "today" you mean "ajax", then that benefits from continuations too. 13:08:34 But I have to go now... 13:09:58 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.18.135] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:11:50 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 13:13:55 what is with the (continuation continuation) idiom? 13:13:57 ssbr: I wrote a little piece that, among other things, discusses a generator macro for Scheme: http://bit.ly/kLBYFn 13:15:40 kandinski: I'd think of it as kind of like updating the continuation with a fresh one 13:16:20 edw: I implemented yield once when studying for my compilers course 13:16:46 this is not really a part of Scheme I enjoy. :/ 13:17:17 ijp: it seems to me a complicated way of returning a continuation. in all the sample code I am reading to study, I can substitute "(continuation continuation)" by "continuation" and it still works. 13:18:20 vide http://paste.lisp.org/display/122250 13:18:32 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:18:35 sure in this case, but not in general 13:18:41 well, maybe not in all of it, yeah 13:18:52 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 13:24:44 Checkie [~checkie@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 13:24:56 kandinski: for instance (let ((k (current-continuation))) (display "Infinite loop\n") (k k)) is very different from (let ((k (current-continuation))) (display "Just once\n") k) 13:25:33 ssbr: Writing that macro was a lot of fun for me. 13:25:40 Yes hello 13:26:22 ijp: yes, well explained. Also in the amb implementation, you need (k k) in order to insert the continuation in the (amb foo) call 13:26:23 ijp: isn't the second bit just returns the current-continuation 13:26:30 (before DISPLAY?) 13:26:38 edw: it's a fun thing. 13:26:41 "updating the continuation with a fresh one" is a good way to put it 13:27:06 well, it is if the second continuation is a different one 13:27:26 oh, but I was talking about the (k k) pattern 13:27:33 where k is the same continuation both times 13:27:58 kandinski: well, then you're updating it, but with the same value... 13:28:05 passing a continuation to itself, so the continuation is returned from the original call/cc 13:28:45 yeah, the difference is whether you want to return the continuation from the original call/cc "(k k)" or from your current point in the program "k" 13:28:56 edw: your implementation differs from what I remember my professor constructing. seems cleaner. Good stuff. 13:28:57 as it turns out, inside the original call/cc it is the same thing 13:29:19 that is, inside the original call/cc (the example I gave you) both have the same effect 13:31:30 ok, yes 13:31:41 different approach. 13:32:03 That or else I'm confusing what I did (different continuations for returning versus continuing) with what my professor did 13:32:23 bohanlon [~bohanlon@66.170.231.233] has joined #scheme 13:32:25 ssbr: Well I'm not a professor, just a bike-riding philosopher. 13:32:26 eh, s/continuing/resuming/ 13:32:39 *shun* 13:32:57 (bikes?!) 13:33:12 Pirsig-bikes or Lemond-bikes? 13:34:50 http://hivelogic.com/articles/top-10-programming-fonts/ 13:34:53 :) 13:35:29 sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 13:35:32 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 13:35:51 ohwow: Terminus is missing from that list ;) 13:38:20 Yeah, terminus is kinda different tho 13:38:26 it's not anti-aliased iirc 13:39:18 also how's consolas better than DejaVu Sans or Droid Sans? 13:43:47 ohwow: consolas is very well hinted. Which is good on Windows systems, but not if you have freetype2 compiled without hinting support. 13:44:45 DejaVu Sans looks as good on my Windows 13:45:42 gremset [ubuntu@117.192.117.93] has joined #scheme 13:46:20 ohwow: the improvement is marginal, I use DejaVu extensively too. 13:46:38 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 13:48:16 One of the DejaVu sans was monospaced until I used bolded text, and then the bolded text was wider than nonbolded text 13:48:24 made it useless in a text editor. Hesitant to try again. 13:48:33 (well, not useless, but it lost an important quality) 13:50:10 huhhuh 13:51:19 ssbr, I am irc-ing in a terminal with dejavu sans and bold is the same width as regular 13:51:40 I have never had that behaviour, maybe it was really early versions that had it 13:52:30 eli, thanks for pointing me towards that chapter, it's enlightening 13:52:32 ironically I am apparently using dejavu sans mono right now in my irc client 13:52:37 Well then! 13:55:30 \o/ 13:56:25 Ohhh. I was thinking of Lucida Console. 13:56:27 So don't use that font. 13:56:48 (what, me spread completely baseless FUD?) 13:58:18 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-190.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:03:34 ssbr: Did you see any of foof's messages earlier? He answered a few of your questions about matching. 14:05:00 cky: I did, though I'm still not sure as to what I should do. 14:05:18 I've found out I can probably use racket, which does already have support for everything I could ask for 14:05:26 Hahahahaha. 14:05:46 mm? 14:06:02 Laughing at the switching-to-Racket thing. 14:06:13 Well it doesn't much matter to me. 14:06:21 What's funny about it? is something wrong with racket? 14:06:37 No, I just thought you had a reason for choosing whatever implementation you were using. 14:06:56 I did. There were a list of implementations supported, racket wasn't on it. 14:07:01 But then I noticed mzscheme was 14:07:08 Ah. :-) 14:08:49 ijp: now I get it. Of course in backtracking you are always going to do (k1 k1), because you want to replace the same continuation, that's pretty much the definition of "backtracking". I'm still looking for uses of (k1 k2) 14:09:29 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-168-198.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:10:27 ssbr: What list is that? 14:10:36 eli: FFI thing for Python 14:10:50 kandinski: no problems, I just happened to write it recently. 14:10:53 schemepy, not to be confused with the other schemepy, or the forty-two different pyschemes 14:11:08 people sure seem to like writing scheme interpreters in Python 14:11:11 kandinski: And BTW, you asked about the (cont cont) idiom -- I'm mentioning that too -- look for "Another way around this problem". 14:11:34 ssbr: You mean some ffi glue from python to a bunch of schemes? 14:11:45 eli: yes 14:12:21 ssbr: What would be the point of that? 14:12:21 eli, reading slowly 14:12:24 a bit old, thus the mzscheme. I would probably fork it and get it back up to date so that I can use it properly, if I'm going to use racket 14:12:43 eli: communicating with scheme programs. Using both Scheme and Python source code in the same project. That sort of thing. 14:12:53 eli, these are your lectures for a course? 14:13:00 kandinski: yes. 14:13:21 ssbr: funny, I finally plunged into using scheme when forced to use both scheme and python (for building gimp plugins) 14:13:23 kandinski: And especially if you're new to this stuff, any feedback would be appreciated (eli@barzilay.org). It's a new part and I didn't try it on students yet... 14:13:23 in particular I want match, because such a thing can't exist in Python 14:14:01 ssbr: Um... You want to bring in Scheme *just* for a pattern matcher?? 14:14:08 That sounds ... weird. 14:14:09 eli: Yes. 14:14:15 Very, even. 14:14:22 What's weird about it? 14:14:30 eli, your references to PLAI are then because it's the assigned reading for your students? 14:14:44 I mean it's a large dependency, but I've had larger for smaller things. 14:14:54 ssbr: I would assume that there are pattern matchers for python already, and if not, I'd assume that it's not hard writing something quick. 14:15:42 kandinski: Kind of. My course is based on PLAI, and that part is actually a kind of an extended version of the corresponding parts of PLAI. 14:15:53 I always think it isn't hard to write something that works 80%, and then there are all those corner cases that don't work. 14:16:17 I don't know. I don't get the feeling that it would be easier to reimplement matching from scratch and figure out a Python API for it and make sure it's sufficiently versatile. 14:17:18 It isn't hard at all to export all the work to scheme. I may have chosen a harder path to it than I should (I could just pipe in data to a subprocess and read out variable bindings or something) 14:17:22 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 14:18:21 the work is mostly in the overhead. I'd have to find something that almost works to connect the two, make it work, and then it's (hopefully?) clear skies and sunny weather. 14:18:26 ssbr: Well, it also sounds like an awful lot of work to start with python values, translate to scheme ones, match, get the results, and translate back. 14:18:51 Also much cpu overhead. 14:18:57 eli: Well I only really need to deal with a few anyway. Lists and dicts translate pretty well. They'd get copied, but scheme wouldn't mutate them. 14:19:03 And I'm never concerned about CPU overhead. 14:19:04 eli, at this point have students found boxes already? (I am new to them). Also what's the point of boxes versus regular variables? 14:19:33 kandinski: one toy example might be (call/cc (lambda (escape) (display "do this now\n") (call/cc (lambda (k) (escape k))) (display "do this later\n"))) 14:19:34 -!- MengZhang [~MengZhang@222.66.175.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:18 Actually, schemepy already has ways of translating values to and from. It looks useful. (for example, you can convert entire functions so that they are wrapped so that their arguments and return values are converted properly) 14:20:39 ssbr: I'd assume that you still need to do some non-trivial work... 14:21:08 kandinski: My students don't really see `set!' -- we stick to boxes throughout most of the semester. Makes things easier. 14:21:17 eli: The only work that I certainly have to do is make sure that I can get schemepy to work with Racket instead of mzscheme. 14:21:30 after that, it's just a matter of whether it works as well as advertised, I think. 14:21:32 I have something similar to that in my Scheme implementation of tagbody (and no, I've never found a use for it yet :) 14:21:59 eli: do boxes have the same scoping rules as variables? different? 14:22:48 kandinski: What other language are you comfortable with? 14:23:32 Python is the only one I can discuss with proper terminology 14:24:13 I don't know the equivalent in python... 14:24:25 A box is a container for a mutable value. 14:24:42 It doesn't have a scope -- since you can send it anywhere and use it wherever. 14:25:06 ah, it looks like a Python global variable 14:25:22 Not really, it's not something that has a name. 14:25:25 It's just a value. 14:25:36 but the box does have a variable 14:25:40 wrapper? 14:25:40 sorry, a name 14:25:49 you do bind names to the boxes, don't you? 14:26:01 kandinski: Not really. 14:26:13 rudybot: (define x (list (box 1) (box 2))) 14:26:14 eli: Done. 14:26:22 rudybot: (define y (second x)) 14:26:23 eli: Done. 14:26:24 (define what-next (box foo)) 14:26:33 rudybot: (set-box! y 123) 14:26:34 eli: Done. 14:26:36 rudybot: x 14:26:37 eli: ; Value: (#&1 #&123) 14:26:57 a box would just be a regular python object 14:27:09 Are all python objects mutable? 14:27:19 I believe so 14:27:19 ah 14:27:32 looksmore like a lightweight object like you have in javascript 14:27:32 DT``: (In the same sense that `cons' is a wrapper around two values.) 14:27:53 eli: Python tuples are not mutable, IIRC. But I'm not a Pythonista, so don't quote me on it. 14:28:00 In that case it's like a single-slot struct, translated to python terminology. 14:28:02 eli: except strings and tuples I think 14:28:15 Single-element vector maybe? 14:28:40 gotcha 14:28:44 In our work Java code, I implemented a Ref class that is exactly like a box in Racket. 14:28:56 ...only it's called ref (from its OCaml name) rather than box. ;-) 14:29:11 in Python it would be a single-element list (python "list" is more of a scheme "vector") 14:29:20 not all python objects are mutable .. illustration: i = 1; l = [0]; def double(x): x += x; double(i); double(l); print i; print l 14:29:35 aspect: Uh. 14:29:40 aspect: You're barking up the wrong tree. 14:29:47 aspect: Python does have pass-by-reference. 14:29:50 well maybe that illustrates the evils of operator overloading 14:29:53 So of course the x += x won't work. 14:30:00 *does not 14:30:11 Python does _NOT_ have pass-by-reference. 14:30:12 cky: to be truly pedantic, Python has pass by value, it just happens that values passed are always object references 14:30:32 sorry, wrong tree indeed 14:31:04 kandinski: Same deal with Scheme, but the same reason why you need to have boxes/refs for sort-of pass-by-reference. 14:31:13 cky: aaaah gotcha 14:31:20 in Python you do that by passing lists 14:31:44 (python lists-which-are-vectors, etc) 14:31:46 kandinski: The problem with lists is that the callee has to check the length of the list, etc. It's gross. 14:32:00 kandinski: That's why I created a Ref class in Java, that has one and only one slot. 14:32:06 kandinski: Much better than people passing arrays. 14:32:16 I think I have it 14:32:35 Ref is just a normal class with one field. 14:32:54 In the same way, you can implement boxes as a record type with one field. 14:33:12 Of course, Racket has a highly-optimised implementation of boxes, built into the language runtime. 14:34:04 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:34:08 yep, and they are global, which suits the purpose of implementing continuations with them, to go back to eli's lecture 14:34:23 cky: Not much to optimize... It's probably as fast as a user defined struct. 14:34:32 you may bind them to scoped names, but that's another matter 14:34:43 kandinski: They're global in the same sense that you can consider all values global. 14:35:04 eli: gotcha. 14:35:10 eli: Hmm. And here I was thinking there was a reason for them to be implemented in the runtime in Racket, versus as Scheme code. ;-) 14:35:33 eli: and only names/variables have scope 14:36:31 So, different question: Some implementations have SRFI 0. Others have SRFI 7. Is there a portable way to write a program that can use both means to query features? 14:37:10 IOW, I want to write a program that can run in both Racket, Chicken, and Guile, say. Racket supports SRFI 7. Chicken and Guile support SRFI 0. 14:37:57 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 14:38:42 cky: Mostly historical. Having a jit makes such things usually as fast in scheme. 14:38:45 kandinski: Exactly. 14:39:09 eli: Ah. 14:39:20 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 14:40:50 cky: get racket to do srfi-0, or get guile and chicken to do srfi-7 14:41:58 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:42:02 (IIRC, the problem with srfi-0 was somehow related to modules or toplevels or something around that.) 14:42:05 masm [~masm@bl19-154-246.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 14:50:24 wingo: Nice. :-) 14:51:11 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 14:51:16 what do you want to use cond-expand for? 14:51:33 features like "guile", "chicken" etc? 14:51:34 MengZhang [~MengZhang@222.69.214.107] has joined #scheme 14:51:38 Yes. 14:51:58 yeah it's more useful for that than for checking for srfis 14:52:05 Indeed. 14:58:50 eli: my conclusion is that I'm going to read your lectures from the start, thanks a lot. 14:58:58 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-173-57-102-171.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:59:24 am I right when I say that you are implementing continuations as boxed closures? 14:59:43 -!- atomx` [~user@86.35.150.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:13 No, implementing continuations requires CPS-ing the code. I show how to do that, but that has nothing to do with boxes. 15:00:37 uh, what 15:00:57 you can implement first-class continuations without explicit CPS, I'm pretty sure 15:01:24 so it's the opposite? you don't implement continuations, you just CPS the code? 15:01:41 I seem to remember doing it by having a stack you put values and environments on, and copying that 15:03:56 -!- EbiDK [511bd602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.27.214.2] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:04:55 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.90] has joined #scheme 15:04:55 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.90] has quit [Changing host] 15:04:55 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 15:05:21 kandinski: Yes, and later I use Rakcet's continuations. 15:06:03 eli, thanks a lot. 1am here, and worth staying up late. Good night! 15:06:03 ssbr: Yes, that's possible of course, and that's what Racket does. But to implement continuations from inside a language this way you need to have some kind of very low level access to the stack etc. 15:06:23 wingo: I lament the fact that Guile's SRFI 13 is implemented in-runtime and therefore doesn't provide the let-string-start+end macro. :-P 15:06:50 wingo: (I guess you "could" implement the macro anyway, but if the rest of the code doesn't use it, then what's the point?) 15:07:13 ssbr: In any case explaining how to do *that* inside the langugae is much more difficult, while explaining CPSing is easy (and good for other reasons). 15:07:21 eli: Right. we used an explicit stack 15:07:28 Oh. 15:07:44 weird 15:07:49 "In a Scheme system that has a module or package system, these procedures should be contained in a module named "string-lib-internals"" 15:08:23 cky: file a bug if you care; who knows what the result will be :) 15:09:35 wingo: :-) 15:13:48 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 15:15:59 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:47 -!- rramsden [~rramsden@173.180.109.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:16:57 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-164-105.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:18:02 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 15:18:16 One of the simple way to implement continuation is using a linked-list stack 15:19:14 I've done that in c months ago 15:19:48 Very simple mechanism 15:20:11 djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 15:20:23 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 15:21:32 ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:25:22 -!- djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:39 MengZhang: I call that technique "on-heap call frames". 15:27:56 MengZhang: I reserve the term "stack" to refer exclusively to what you get from the stack pointer on your machine. 15:28:42 MengZhang: Heap-base call frames is also the technique used by SISC to achieve full continuations on the JVM. 15:28:45 *Heap-based 15:28:53 djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 15:28:55 I see it 15:30:41 ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has joined #scheme 15:31:36 Then what should be named for direct copying the stack? 15:31:38 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #scheme 15:32:57 Some efficiency scheme directly copy the call-frames, which in continuous memory 15:34:16 -!- mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:37:35 Right, and if it physically resides on the stack, then you can refer to it as stack-copying. :-) 15:42:26 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [] 15:45:08 mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 15:45:59 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:46:26 HG` [~HG@p579F7F5C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:47:52 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C43D8A.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:51 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:49:27 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 15:52:49 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:52 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:50 MCMic [~mcmic@pdpc/supporter/student/mcmic] has joined #scheme 15:59:53 hi 16:00:13 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:00:40 I need to randomized a list. I did something that was slow, I then did something that was supposed to be faster and it seems even slower :-/ 16:01:01 would you have any idea about how do do that in the minimum amount of time? 16:02:04 (right now I use random, length et list-ref to take a random point and I then need to search for it in the list in order to remove it, and then I do the same thing for the next point) 16:02:23 ...and you're surprised that it's slow? 16:02:26 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:02:32 not really 16:02:42 that was the first version, I needed something that works 16:03:00 What did you try next? 16:03:11 In the second version I try to remove it at the same time that I take it, but it seems even slower 16:03:37 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 16:03:44 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 16:03:57 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 16:04:33 http://pastebin.archlinux.fr/432566 16:04:58 (sorry about the french words, liste means list and mélanger means randomized) 16:05:16 If you want to use lists, a conceptually easy way is to apply a random permutation to the list. 16:05:27 okay 16:05:32 how does that work? 16:06:15 You can do this by sorting the list with random weights. 16:06:37 like using a comparator function that replies randomly? 16:07:25 (sort liste (lambda(x,y) (if (random 1) x y))) ? 16:07:59 MCMic: No. 16:07:59 err, the if is not right, it should return #t/#f and not an element, but the idea is here 16:08:03 Give each thing in the list a random weight, and then sort the weights. 16:08:29 I see the idea, but I'm not sure how to implement that 16:08:31 Jafet: Really you want to give each thing a _unique_ random weight, and if you could do that, you could already shuffle. 16:08:44 Jafet: So, chicken-and-egg. 16:09:02 MCMic: that would depend on the sort function you use, but usually, sort functions don't behave well when the comparator you give it doesn't implement an order. 16:09:21 cky: what would sorting with a function that replies #t or #f randomly would do? 16:09:24 pjb: ok 16:09:27 MCMic: I would do this: Copy the list into a vector, apply Fisher-Yates shuffle on it, then create a new list from the vector. 16:09:35 MCMic: The order isn't consistent in that case. 16:09:43 MCMic: And the sorting function may have undefined behaviour. 16:10:09 I never used something else than a list in scheme but I'll try what you said 16:10:10 cky: if the list is small, you can do it like in your paste, but soon enough, cky's algorithm will be more efficient. 16:10:38 pjb: the list can be long 16:10:49 MCMic: Then do the Fisher-Yates shuffle. 16:11:08 ok, I'll try that, thanks 16:11:17 Fisher-Yates shuffle is what you've done, but on vectors. 16:11:38 pjb: Ah. (I didn't look at the paste, so.) 16:11:40 The trick is to start from the end, so that you can use (vector-ref (random n)) in the loop. 16:11:52 cky: the paste uses lists instead of vectors. 16:12:00 pjb: Gotcha. 16:12:04 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:14:12 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 16:18:09 ymasory [~ymasory@128.91.39.26] has joined #scheme 16:18:50 -!- MengZhang [~MengZhang@222.69.214.107] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:50 WOW 16:24:10 9 milliseconds instead of 10 seconds for 6000 points 16:24:18 that's kind of a good optimisation :D 16:24:25 thanks a lot guys 16:25:10 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 16:27:47 :-D 16:28:05 Gogo using the right data structure. ;-) 16:32:22 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:34:57 mmc1 [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 16:35:26 http://live.twit.tv/ 16:36:16 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has joined #scheme 16:38:13 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:38:35 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has joined #scheme 16:38:55 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:24 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@128.91.39.26] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39:31 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has joined #scheme 16:44:40 vu3rdd` [~vu3rdd@122.167.122.142] has joined #scheme 16:46:22 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:54:04 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 17:00:30 ymasory [~ymasory@128.91.39.26] has joined #scheme 17:12:12 erkk, had to go down to lowest bandwidth to get proper streaming :( 17:12:44 samth [~samth@soenat3.cse.ucsc.edu] has joined #scheme 17:13:24 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:30 -!- MCMic [~mcmic@pdpc/supporter/student/mcmic] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:16:32 MCMic [~mcmic@194.2.148.129] has joined #scheme 17:20:28 eli: That was interesting, thanks. :-) 17:20:35 yeah 17:20:44 :) 17:20:50 i thought he was older though :) looks about 22 17:21:09 He's a little older than 22... 17:21:23 22.5? 17:21:25 lol 17:21:51 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-190.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:22:02 (more like twice...) 17:22:04 i had youthful looks till my early 30's, then it just went downhill from there 17:22:13 like 40? wow 17:24:45 oh shoop racket on TWiT atm? 17:24:52 i;ll download the recording 17:24:55 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:26:04 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@128.91.39.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:26:27 ymasory [~ymasory@128.91.39.26] has joined #scheme 17:36:18 homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-171-190.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:37:41 leppie: Ha -- I feel proud of myself every few years when I buy alcohol and get asked for an id... 17:40:50 -!- vu3rdd` [~vu3rdd@122.167.122.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:53 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:43:29 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 17:46:08 -!- gremset [ubuntu@117.192.117.93] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 17:46:15 saccadewrk [~saccadewr@nat/google/x-watnncbdjbpfitlg] has joined #scheme 17:46:24 gremset [ubuntu@117.192.117.93] has joined #scheme 17:57:06 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:57:26 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-69.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:09:30 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 18:16:37 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-51-64-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:03 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:20:46 MCMic_ [~mcmic@194.2.148.129] has joined #scheme 18:21:07 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:19 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:22:13 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 18:24:20 -!- MCMic [~mcmic@194.2.148.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:26:14 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:26:29 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 18:27:15 -!- MCMic_ [~mcmic@194.2.148.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:28:06 MCMic [~mcmic@194.2.148.129] has joined #scheme 18:29:04 Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #scheme 18:29:50 -!- cbrannon [~cbrannon@gentoo/developer/cbrannon] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:32:12 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 18:34:45 monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:38:30 -!- MCMic [~mcmic@194.2.148.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:38:51 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:40:20 any good learning scheme/racket resources online? 18:40:52 I need to know racket for a fall course (well, they'll probably teach it in the course, but if the prof is bad, then he'll basically expect I know it anyway, so I don't want to gamble my straight As like that) 18:41:27 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 18:42:50 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:44:00 htdp.org 18:45:31 stis [~stis@host-90-235-96-232.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 18:49:53 Aethaeryn: http://docs.racket-lang.org/getting-started/ 18:50:16 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:50:53 rudybot: eval ((lambda (x.y) 'ok) 1 2 3) 18:50:53 leppie: error: #: expects 1 argument, given 3: 1 2 3 18:50:54 SmartViking [~smartviki@unaffiliated/smartviking] has joined #scheme 18:51:40 *leppie* tries to remember the lexical rule 18:52:51 ? 18:52:52 rudybot: eval ((lambda (x .y) 'ok) 1 2 3) 18:52:53 leppie: error: #: expects 2 arguments, given 3: 1 2 3 18:53:23 wow, that's the same rudybot from #emacs 18:53:25 hmm, so a '.' can be the start or end of an identifier 18:53:38 Who would've thought that there'd be an overlap between #emacs and #scheme 18:55:50 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7F5C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:56:28 -!- mmc1 [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:00:38 HG` [~HG@p579F7151.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:03:58 Aethaeryn: http://paste.lisp.org/display/84252 ; intersection r5rs cl; you may do the same for emacs lisp. 19:04:09 -!- skeptical_p [~rononovsk@109.65.184.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:04:29 Aethaeryn: but of course, one can more easily program with the intersection of emacs lisp and Common Lisp. 19:04:33 pjb: I think he meant in terms of users 19:05:07 Aethaeryn: notably, since emacs lisp so far has only dynamic binding and scheme only lexical binding (without additionnal modules for either), programs that work on both must be written much more carefuly. 19:05:12 (null? (insersection (people-on #emacs) (people-on #scheme))) -> #f 19:05:23 ijp: oh, yes, I didn't notice the #. 19:12:15 What scheme interpreter is recommended for GNU/Linux? I'm completely new to scheme 19:12:48 SmartViking: i recommend Racket: http://racket-lang.org 19:13:57 samth: Ok, I am following this: http://www.cs.hut.fi/Studies/T-93.210/schemetutorial/node4.html Will racket be compatible? Or is there some other documentation you would recommend? 19:14:06 SmartViking: Chicken Scheme has packages for most of the GNU/Linux distros 19:14:18 it's flly r5rs compatible and has library system 19:14:39 SmartViking: are you new to programming? 19:14:49 Both Racket and Chicken supports R5RS which is used in that tutorial, so you should be fine. 19:14:55 if so, I recommend http://htdp.org 19:15:02 But people in this channel will recommend you SICP or HtDP 19:15:08 o 19:15:12 samth: I'm not completely new have done some Python 19:15:38 if you're fairly new, try out htdp 19:16:57 Isn't racket in the debian repos? 19:17:15 Depends on Debian version 19:17:25 Stable, 6 19:17:28 probably old debian has `plt-scheme', which is an old name of racket 19:17:49 yea 19:17:59 Yeah I'll install that 19:19:57 Thanks for the guidance :) 19:20:22 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:21:04 Yw. Scheme is known for having a plenty of nice books about it and a great community :) 19:23:21 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:26:20 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:34:01 bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:37:00 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 19:42:26 -!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Quit: Updating to Fedora 15] 19:45:11 -!- djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:45:31 djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 19:47:08 mmc1 [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 19:52:37 rramsden [~rramsden@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 19:54:29 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 19:57:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-76.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:00:59 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:02:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-248.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:05:39 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 20:14:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-248.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:17:46 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-69.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:27:05 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 20:35:11 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:38:38 markymark [~markymark@unaffiliated/markymark] has joined #scheme 20:42:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-15.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:48:40 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:52:19 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:24 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:57:47 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@128.91.39.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:57:57 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:58:14 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 20:59:41 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-96-232.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:12 gremset_ [ubuntu@117.192.106.27] has joined #scheme 21:01:26 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7151.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:04:27 -!- gremset [ubuntu@117.192.117.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:19:04 -!- djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:52 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 21:32:40 gremset [ubuntu@117.192.105.204] has joined #scheme 21:32:46 coi 21:36:31 -!- gremset_ [ubuntu@117.192.106.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:37:14 cbrannon [~cbrannon@gentoo/developer/cbrannon] has joined #scheme 21:41:35 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 21:41:41 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:56:59 -!- elliottcable is now known as eliottcable 21:59:39 -!- eliottcable is now known as Mikoangelo 22:01:34 -!- Mikoangelo is now known as _sully 22:01:49 -!- _sully is now known as elliottcable 22:06:38 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-177-118.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:07:34 -!- homie [~levent.gu@xdsl-78-35-171-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:25:34 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #scheme 22:27:51 -!- bohanlon [~bohanlon@66.170.231.233] has quit [Quit: Off to Boston] 22:27:58 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:29:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-15.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:16 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 22:40:42 bugQ [~bug@c-67-186-255-54.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:45:49 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 22:47:53 gremset_ [ubuntu@117.192.104.142] has joined #scheme 22:48:37 -!- gremset [ubuntu@117.192.105.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:51:02 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:51:15 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has joined #scheme 22:54:54 mornin' 22:59:13 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:00:29 the chair of wg2 plonking people on public mailing lists seems like a non-positive development 23:02:22 samth: it was arguably called for - I'll follow up on the list when I get a chance 23:02:49 foof: i would say it's not ever called for 23:02:51 wg2? 23:03:51 and in this particular case, since the relevant message made only technical claims about existing standards, i don't see how that could call for such things 23:04:07 samth: If someone is simply attacking the group with no interest in really helping the standard then it is called for, and we've had that in the past. 23:04:23 ToxicFrog: a forum for the Scheme community to yell at each other 23:05:15 And eli has already said he's not trying to influence the standard, so I'm not sure what his motivation is. 23:05:30 Anyway, I've gotta run to work... 23:06:19 foof: eli has said that he doesn't care about r7rs, but I would expect that he thinks he should help people try to produce good technical work, even if he isn't going to use it 23:06:31 that's certainly how i feel 23:08:53 Aah. 23:11:38 foof: esp since he plonked eli for being *correct* about Chibi 23:12:44 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:20:08 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:21:50 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 23:29:34 -!- ijp [~user@host86-148-151-152.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:30:42 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:30:59 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 23:32:35 -!- rramsden [~rramsden@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:34:08 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 23:37:08 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #scheme 23:41:48 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme