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03:39:48 *offby1* stares blankly 03:40:04 As in, there isn't one scheme to download off the interwebs 03:40:09 e.g. http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#implementations 03:40:29 there are many scheme implementations 03:40:35 does that answer your question? 03:40:52 also, evening offby1 03:41:55 elly: So which one do I use? :-P 03:41:55 -!- zorblek [~morganmay@50-47-169-35.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:42:06 What kind of language rests entirely on one implementation? Oh, right. 03:42:08 Aethaeryn: pick one you like 03:42:15 if you are a beginner, I recommend racket 03:42:17 Too many choices. :/ 03:42:18 Okay 03:43:17 zorblek [~morganmay@50-47-169-35.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #scheme 03:44:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.207.106] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 03:46:09 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-251.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:46:10 -!- zorblek [~morganmay@50-47-169-35.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:46:59 -!- tricus [~tricus@h69-130-142-158.cncrtn.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Quit: tricus] 03:47:47 zorblek [~morganmay@50-47-169-35.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #scheme 03:49:19 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:49:19 -!- yell0 [yello@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:50:27 elly: okay, installed. Now what? 03:50:27 -!- zorblek [~morganmay@50-47-169-35.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:51:17 Aethaeryn: run it! 03:51:29 probably as 'drracket' 03:53:18 I enjoyed my experience with Racket (before it was called that, I haven't used it since for unrelated reasons). 03:54:01 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:55:21 I like that it has a macro-based lex/yacc-style parser that's well-integrated, so you don't have to generate the scheme source for the lexer/parser as a separate stage. 03:57:32 oh, 'drracket' 03:57:52 I was running it with 'racket' 03:58:24 racket runs the commandline repl 04:00:56 hussaibi [~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #scheme 04:08:35 yell0 [~yello@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 04:09:53 zorblek [~morganmay@50-47-169-35.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #scheme 04:11:20 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:11:20 -!- zorblek [~morganmay@50-47-169-35.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:12:35 zorblek [~morganmay@50-47-169-35.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #scheme 04:16:24 -!- vk0 [~vk@ip-23-75.bnaa.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:17:43 vk0 [~vk@ip-23-75.bnaa.dk] has joined #scheme 04:25:45 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:31:43 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:42:22 wow, this Scheme syntax is pretty cool 04:42:32 Anyone interested in a more-or-less thorough tutorial on continuations? 04:43:36 *offby1* sneaks out 04:43:37 -!- zorblek [~morganmay@50-47-169-35.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:44:57 *eli* makes a sad face 04:45:02 eli: Yes, but not in terms of how continuations work, but more in terms of what kinds of cool shit you can do with them. 04:45:16 In particular, all the stuff you _can't_ do with Python generators, setjmp/longjmp, etc. 04:45:54 cky: Well, I have a long cool-shit section... 04:46:02 Excellent. :-) 04:46:03 And it includes ... implementing generators. 04:46:19 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:46:36 Hehehe. 04:46:39 But there's also a (very nice, IMO) explanation of `amb' -- deriving it all the way from a simple goto-like use. 04:46:49 superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has joined #scheme 04:46:53 Cool, I look forward to seeing it! 04:47:20 If you want to see *just* some cool shit, then there's this: http://matt.might.net/articles/programming-with-continuations--exceptions-backtracking-search-threads-generators-coroutines/ 04:47:21 http://tinyurl.com/y3v6jle 04:47:49 *cky* bookmarks that for future day, with a freer brain. :-) 04:48:01 Mine is much more thorough, motivates it in terms of web interaction, and introduces CPS -- as a macro -- which works very well. 04:48:23 That's not my idea through, it's an extended version of the relevant chapters in PLAI. 04:48:38 (And PLAI in turn derives that from lecture notes in a course that Matthias taught.) 04:48:46 That sounds really awesome! Good to explore continuations in depth. :-) 04:49:01 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 04:49:15 (And that derives, according to the stories I hear, from the approach that Matthias & Friedman used to play with when he was at Indiana.) 04:49:43 In any case, my version is at http://pl.barzilay.org/lec27.txt 04:49:58 I'll be happy if you have any feedback. 04:50:17 It should be pretty easy to read for complete continuation-newbies too. 04:50:24 After all, that's the intended audience. 04:50:31 I'll try to write some, when I'm less super-swamped with work. :-) 04:50:32 *eli* stares intently at offby1 04:50:42 (Feedback, that is.) 04:51:32 cky: Well, if you read it and you have just general comments feel free to tell me even if you don't spend the time to make it into a coherent critique prose or some such masterpiece. 04:52:19 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:28 Will do. :-) 04:52:40 TIA for anything. 04:52:46 :-) 04:55:45 cky: Actually, since it *motivates* the whole thing with a web interaction thing, you could say that the whole thing is more of a cool-shit thing. There's definitely almost no academic stuff that is only exciting "in an interesting night-time telly type of way". 04:57:44 Excellent. :-) 05:01:32 zorblek [~morganmay@50-47-169-35.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #scheme 05:14:44 -!- zorblek [~morganmay@50-47-169-35.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has left #scheme 05:25:16 eli, i dont think your sidenote about ajax being the naive solution is sufficiently detailed 05:26:14 jonrafkind: Well, I didn't have any intention to explain ajax... 05:26:37 It's basically a pre-made reply to what some students jump to when I start talking about continuations and web programming -- 05:26:48 it sounds like you are just barreling through the introduction to get to continuations but someone could concievably get stuck on 'whats wrong with ajax? the rest is a straw man..' 05:27:14 anyone who knows vaguely (and *only* vaguely) about ajax immediately shouts that web forms etc is a dead technilogy. 05:27:51 It does say what's "wrong" with it -- nothing really, just that it really is using the same kind of interaction model... 05:28:16 but you can easily keep state on the client side with no issues 05:28:52 at least in some instances 05:29:01 Yeah, you can do the same with cookies, html5 client side dbs, etc... But the problem is still there... 05:29:12 ... and yes -- "at least in some instances" is the key. 05:29:16 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.207.106] has joined #scheme 05:29:32 In many cases continuations have a really good place, and that should be enough to motivate the rest. 05:29:56 (And that's why it's not too important -- it's just a motivetional thing at that point.) 05:30:01 its true, im just playing devils advocate for people that resist continuations 05:30:27 btw, i was in #twisted the other day and asked them if they wished they had continuations and they basically said continuations are too hard/crazy, yield is good enough 05:30:29 Do you have a suggestion on how to say it better? Perhaps something with a tiny example? 05:30:33 twisted is the event driven framework for python 05:30:51 well not off the top of my head, id have to think of something 05:30:56 And it uses `yield'? 05:31:15 well you can either use yield almost like send/suspend or you can make lambdas and attach them as callbacks 05:31:23 (re an example -- if you find something short enough to fit into that, I'll be hapy to include it.) 05:32:31 "Almost" is not clear enough -- can it make the same kind of free interaction or not? 05:33:12 its a one shot continuation so you cant use the back button (at least I assume thats how its going to work) 05:33:27 but you can write web applications in-line, just like the racket web server 05:33:37 In that case -- "ugh"... 05:33:52 Going back is kind of fundamental... 05:34:12 yea, i dont use back much, but i guess some people do 05:35:07 There's obviously some of the reverse effect -- people (especially tech-oriented ones) learning to avoid the back button, since you practically expect it to break stuff. 05:35:40 For example, ask someone how they'd feel about making some money transaction on a web site then clicking the back button. 05:35:56 My guess is that it's a good question to find out who's a real geek. 05:35:58 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-49-168.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:36:04 lulz 05:39:48 you do all of this material in one lecture?? 05:40:06 Of course not... 05:40:19 I just finished writing some parts, then kept adding stuff. 05:40:32 So it happens to be hanging on the last file... 05:41:09 i like how it transitions from 'whats a continuation?' to 'lets implement CPS conversion!' 05:41:50 Yeah, that's all SK's -- I just extended it and made some edges a little smoother. 05:42:17 fwiw, to truly appreciate continuations I had to study/implement redex models of those various CESK machines 05:42:27 just like to truly understand lambda you have to implement an interpreter 05:43:12 I actually have very little experience with these machines... 05:43:47 They're nice, and they get some things done in a very cute way, but I like the PLAI thing for being so seemingly practical... 05:47:19 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-251.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:48:09 mmc1 [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 05:48:29 minsa [~minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:48:43 kniu [~kniu@pool-96-250-3-60.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:51:01 -!- mmc1 [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 05:53:40 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:57:25 test 05:57:34 -!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Quit: ...] 06:04:03 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:10:35 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-yudwxfgrqaicnezk] has quit [Remote host 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is now known as EM03 14:13:08 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:14:03 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-173-57-102-171.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:16:24 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:17:23 ijp [~user@host86-163-253-224.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 14:20:59 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 14:21:11 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:21:22 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-177-118.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:23:23 ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 14:23:38 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:29:01 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 14:30:39 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:39 -!- minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:40 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:18 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable041.134-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:42 amoe, MIT Scheme and Scheme48 come much closer than Chicken to something sensible. 14:32:32 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable041.134-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 14:33:18 aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:34:22 lisppaste [~lisppaste@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 14:34:28 Riastradh. 14:34:32 good day. 14:34:48 Hi. 14:34:51 minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 14:34:58 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 14:35:09 hmm, bots :) 14:35:40 Riastradh: are you avoiding the scheme-reports list by conscious choice? 14:35:49 or just not enough cycles 14:35:51 No, it's more like unconscious choice. 14:36:07 i make lots of those 14:37:10 `Mailing list? Politicking? That New Yorker article suddenly looks pretty interesting. Oh, what time is it?' 14:37:25 lololol 14:38:13 the less pejorative way to spell politicking is "collective decision-making" 14:38:33 thank you comrade. 14:40:06 rudybot: you'll be first up against the wall when the revolution comes 14:40:07 ijp: anyway, when the revolution comes, etc. 14:40:19 :) 14:43:51 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-51-64-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 14:44:23 amoe, Riastradh: I don't know exactly the context of your discussion, but I'd like to mention that Chicken used to have http://parenteses.org/mario/misc/osprocess.html (sorry if I'm totally missing the point). That egg is for chicken 3. It seems that it has not been ported to chicken 4 (yet?). 14:44:27 minsa [~minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:47:13 ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has joined #scheme 14:49:30 -!- jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #scheme 14:49:34 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.90] has joined #scheme 14:49:34 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.90] has quit [Changing host] 14:49:34 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 14:51:49 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:52:03 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-24-7-1-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:07 -!- zbigniew [~zb@ipv6.3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:53:14 zbigniew [~zb@ipv6.3e8.org] has joined #scheme 14:53:14 Besides the procedures from the built-in posix unit: http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/4/Unit%20posix#processes 14:54:18 XTL [~XTL@dsl-olubrasgw2-fe6af800-251.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 14:55:30 -!- bad-egg [~chatzilla@183.37.195.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:14 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:59:15 mario-goulart, the REAP? argument to MAKE-OSPROCESS is a design mistake. Reaper period? `How many seconds between checking for zombies.'? I don't think I want to know what motivated such nonsense... There appears to be no job control or controlling terminal involved; at the very least, you need to be able to setsid and setpgrp, even if you don't care about job control. (The API is also poorly broken down and not composable, but that's a mino 15:00:05 mario-goulart, Chicken's POSIX unit is unfit for libraries; it is designed not to compose. You are obligated to call waitpid yourself; this is a stupid design bug in a system with a garbage collector. 15:01:28 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 15:02:59 http://lists.racket-lang.org/users/archive/2011-May/045653.html 15:03:22 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C43D8A.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:04:04 cool :) 15:05:57 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 15:07:42 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:08:47 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:11:21 ymasory [~ymasory@seas470.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu] has joined #scheme 15:11:46 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 15:16:29 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 15:18:43 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:23:00 -!- zmv 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[~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:04:32 Could it be made normative instead? 22:06:10 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 22:07:46 In that case it had better be correct as well. 22:08:16 that is to say, it must agree with the already-normative prose in all particulars. 22:08:46 Correctness be damned! How fast can it go? 22:08:49 (What is it?) 22:09:39 Hmm, coming in through Tor has certainly changed your POV. 22:09:51 (It's the formal semantics in R7RS, which currently is a copy of R5RS) 22:10:19 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-158-113.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:16:42 -!- mmc1 [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:00 Riastradh: So what do you think: should the formal semantics be removed from R7RS? 22:17:02 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #scheme 22:17:11 lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 22:17:29 How about a reference interpreter? 22:17:33 (written in Scheme) 22:17:44 mmc1 [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 22:18:01 Feel free to write one and contribute it. 22:18:19 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@seas470.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:37 The question is, is the R5RS semantics still nearly correct enough to be worth keeping, what with various features added to R7RS? 22:20:35 I guess they're mostly upward compatible. 22:20:51 More important is a reference macro expander. 22:23:52 -!- lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:25 -!- EM03 [~dfsdfdsf@unaffiliated/em03] has quit [Quit: EM03] 22:25:48 EM03 [~dfsdfdsf@cpe-65-186-205-111.insight.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:25:48 -!- EM03 [~dfsdfdsf@cpe-65-186-205-111.insight.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:25:48 EM03 [~dfsdfdsf@unaffiliated/em03] has joined #scheme 22:27:05 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 22:28:59 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:36:53 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 22:39:31 ymasory [~ymasory@seas470.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu] has joined #scheme 22:41:25 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 22:52:07 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Quit: brb] 22:58:20 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #scheme 22:58:54 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 23:05:53 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:16:43 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 23:29:15 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has left #scheme 23:34:41 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@seas470.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:35:19 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #scheme 23:41:33 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 23:47:08 ijp` [~user@host86-148-151-152.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 23:48:19 -!- ijp [~user@host86-163-253-224.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:48:38 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Quit: studying] 23:53:01 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 23:53:23 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 23:53:44 rramsden [~rramsden@173.180.109.6] has joined #scheme 23:56:42 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]