00:05:11 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:07:56 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-174-133.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 00:11:19 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-194-93.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:12:34 masm [~masm@bl19-194-93.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 00:14:14 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-234-130-45.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:15:10 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-153-198.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:15:10 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 00:18:55 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:46 -!- elly [debian-tor@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:21:00 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 00:21:19 ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:21:32 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-194-93.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:22:40 elly [debian-tor@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 00:23:19 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:28:32 i wonder if there is any way todo web dev in just mit scheme 00:29:12 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-108-141.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:29:18 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 00:29:29 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:29:41 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable182.177-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:30:13 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-234-130-45.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:30:14 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 00:30:27 -!- teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable182.177-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 00:30:43 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable182.177-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:33:06 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:34:13 what is chicken schemes niche? 00:35:22 a haystack 00:37:55 -!- carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 00:38:38 someone here was telling me about chicken schemes web dev possibilities, I would be interested in hearing those 00:43:25 -!- gremset [ubuntu@117.192.101.153] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:24 -!- githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:45:27 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 00:50:11 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 00:52:38 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:53:28 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 00:55:47 copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:55:47 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:55:47 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 00:57:53 EM03: I'm running a lab on Chicken: that involves the whole stack from bizarre gene-isolating/amplifying robots to client-facing web-apps. 00:58:44 Its niche is that it's fucking awesome. 00:59:05 "L"? L is so, like, 21st-century. Everyone knows "M" is the new thing 01:00:29 klutometis: actually I'm reading the paper, and it indeed looks interesting 01:00:46 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:08 offby1: Yeah; I don't know if the distribution of one-letter langs is totally uniform, though. Nobody, as far as I can tell, has claimed lowly `H'. 01:01:38 I claim the artist-formerly-known-as-Prince letter. 01:02:45 Or `I', `N', `O', `P', `U', for that matter. 01:03:02 Oh, that's a good one; yeah, we're going to have to get Greek here pretty soon. 01:09:50 *offby1* gets medieval greek on klutometis 01:11:51 I can't decide between Chicken and Racket. Which one works nicer with emacs, and which is nicer with leaving something running with a remote REPL? 01:14:57 well, "geiser", which is mighty mighty cool, supports racket and not chicken. 01:15:08 (Although you'd probably earn a place in heaven by adding support to it for chicken) 01:15:28 about the remote repl ... dunno, actually. 01:15:32 Hey so I'm looking to embed a large number of chatrooms into a website, do you know of any APIs I could use for doing this? 01:15:59 Sgeo: Things like paredit are Scheme-implementation agnostic, which is almost all one needs. 01:16:00 *rudybot* votes for racket, but then he would, wouldn't he 01:16:22 mippymoe89: I'm having trouble parsing that question. Does it somehow pertain to scheme? 01:16:34 I thought Rudybot was written in Chicken for some reason 01:16:43 Sgeo: I pointed you at the SO reference on a remote repl, right? 01:16:55 eli, um, I think so 01:17:01 offby1: I clicked on wrong channel sorry :P 01:17:11 Sgeo: nope, racket 01:17:13 Sgeo: Also, if you want something that makes repl development a little more friendly, see my interactive hack. 01:17:14 rudybot: (banner) 01:17:15 *offby1: error: default-load-handler: cannot open input file: "/usr/local/racket-textual/collects/racket/gui.rkt" (No such file or directory; errno=2) 01:17:20 *offby1* rolls eyes 01:17:22 rudybot: init scheme 01:17:23 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 01:17:25 rudybot: (banner) 01:17:26 *offby1: ; Value: "Welcome to Racket v5.1.1.\n" 01:17:52 Interactive hack? 01:18:09 Sgeo: http://barzilay.org/hacks.html 01:18:23 Second one. 01:18:35 I was kind of hoping that all of this would be built in, instead of needing to copy/paste anything 01:18:40 Or downloadable as a library 01:18:42 >.> 01:18:59 Sgeo: The file has instructions on how to use it. 01:19:21 Being "built in" shouldn't be a problem -- the only reason it's not included in racket is that I didn't get to add it. 01:19:42 I meant the debug repl 01:19:54 erm, remote repl 01:20:04 Sgeo: If you want to learn, go with racket. If you want to get things done, go with either racket or chicken. 01:20:24 I want to learn while getting things done >.> 01:20:36 And also convince others to learn >.> 01:21:05 Sgeo: You mean a TCP repl? I doubt that any implementation will come with something like that included -- there are way too many options, and it's way to dangerous to just run one out of some box. 01:21:37 s/to dangerous/too dangerous/ 01:22:23 Is it sane to leave stuff running in emacs? 01:23:31 Sgeo: Why not just use screen if you need a remote REPL? It's Emacs- and Scheme-agnostic. 01:23:37 Sgeo: I keep my emacs running on an ec2 instance, and this IRC client running within it. 01:25:43 Sgeo: Yes, but that's a very different story from a TCP repl. 01:26:04 (I use VNC extensively, BTW. Much better than screen.) 01:26:48 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:27:31 eli: Oh, you're not ratpoison-dvorak-screen crowd? You use a mouse? 01:28:30 eww, vnc :-( 01:28:45 klutometis: I suspect he drives a car, too 01:29:15 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-149-1.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:30:13 klutometis: sawfish-kuerti, and infrequent use of mouse. 01:30:23 offby1: Yeah, but aren't mice bizarre? Aren't they some bizarre throwback to 80's Xerox PARC or something? 01:30:26 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-yykkgtmbdtzkumgo] has joined #scheme 01:30:46 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-108-141.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:30:46 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 01:30:55 Using a mouse extensively is slow, but for some things it is perfectly reasonable, and beats changing your whole environment just to avoid it. 01:31:26 Mice are irritating. I use a trackpad. 01:32:19 I keep a cat. 01:32:50 Whorfin 01:32:55 (By "mouse" I mean a trackpad on a laptop, and a mouse on a desktop.) 01:54:04 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:57:16 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:59:54 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:02:35 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 02:05:29 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:07:10 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:09:36 -!- cky [~cky@car.spillville.com] has quit [Changing host] 02:09:36 cky [~cky@fsf/member/cky] has joined #scheme 02:10:08 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 02:14:32 elderK|work [ca445bc6@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 02:17:39 ;P hey peeps 02:17:44 Anyone here in Christchurch, NZ? 02:17:50 me 02:17:58 really? 02:17:59 :D Cool 02:18:08 naw just kidding sorry ...usa here 02:18:10 I just moved to Christchurch from Dunedin 02:18:11 Aw 02:18:13 *elderK|work* sigh 02:18:29 I've never met anyone from nz in real life 02:20:01 well 02:20:03 howdy. 02:20:10 :P 02:21:15 you use scheme? 02:21:31 I do, hells yes. 02:21:37 for personal stuff, mind you. 02:21:41 and not always. 02:21:48 I'm more interested in implementing a kick-ass compiler for it. 02:21:53 for some pretty crazy purposes. 02:22:01 but, due to work, I've had no real motivation or time to work on it. 02:24:30 I'm fairly new to scheme using multiple implementations trying to see which fit 02:24:56 have you checked out chicken? 02:25:36 elderK|work: did you read my mind? 02:25:47 maybe 02:25:50 *elderK|work* eyes dart 02:25:56 today is the very first day I have checked it out, installing / setting it up right now 02:26:07 i was using racket ....but jeesh not anymore 02:26:18 Why not? 02:26:31 Racket is neat from time to time, it's cool how it has PLaneT 02:26:38 hey Riastradh :) 02:26:42 eggs seem fairly the same thing? 02:26:44 lnog time no see. 02:26:54 Aye, they are - but chicken includes quite a deal less than Ploanet 02:27:09 also the docs in chicken are organized :\ 02:27:19 the docs are pretty good. 02:27:29 except for some of the eggs. 02:27:51 i want to use the awful framework I believe for web 02:27:57 actually make sense 02:30:40 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.149] has joined #scheme 02:31:17 Riastradh: racket was a headache for me in more ways than one, and half of it was not rackets fault 02:32:27 thats the case often in scheme 02:32:34 so many things are so simple and obvious that they defy understanding 02:32:40 in a real way, you get what you give :) 02:33:12 but chicken seems more my style for sure 02:33:28 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 02:33:39 gremset [ubuntu@117.192.112.21] has joined #scheme 02:33:57 Well 02:33:58 it's neat 02:34:14 but PLT/Racket is neat too, in taht it has some pretty nice facilities for external code, like C. 02:34:23 well 02:34:24 and again, the batteries-included 02:34:32 the issue i was having was from a pure web perspective 02:34:36 chicken expects a much more hands-on approach for interfacing with C 02:34:41 the way chicken does it is much more like the rest of the world 02:34:45 using awful at lest 02:34:46 but it also has a nice framework too, called Spiffy. 02:34:48 least* 02:35:04 What's `the rest of the world'? PHP? 02:35:08 No 02:35:13 nice try though Riastradh :) 02:35:37 rule #1 of engagement destroy your enemies character 02:36:17 I was thinking more along the lines of Python and well I guess we can say ruby / sinatra and this pattern is pretty much universal 02:40:00 I'm not trying to discredit you; I'm just curious what your reasons are. 02:40:20 ok fair Riastradh :) 02:40:29 x711Li [~x711Li@bas8-toronto63-1177613548.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 02:40:50 -!- x711Li [~x711Li@bas8-toronto63-1177613548.dsl.bell.ca] has left #scheme 02:41:06 Riastradh: just the way you set your path and the way the handlers are setup in the awful egg are much more straight forward than the whole racket web server instance thing 02:49:54 elderK|work: how long have you been using chicken? 02:56:35 *Sgeo* wants continuation-based LSL 02:57:15 I wonder if I can make a language similar to LSL, but with continuations, and have that compile to LSL... 02:57:49 -!- teurastaja 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services] 03:33:07 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfcca3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 03:34:22 -!- mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:40:27 EM03: Oh, since 2009. 03:40:29 Doesn't feel like that long, though. 03:40:31 :) Time flies. 03:40:36 I still remember when I started Scheming. 03:40:37 it does 03:40:47 I did a /lot/ of researching at that time. 03:41:08 :) It always makes me laugh when the best papers on m any subjects in computer science, come from the 60s or 70s. 03:41:21 Like, the most efficient mechanism to optimize a DFA. 03:41:25 well, minimize. 03:41:36 Or some crazy structures like the AVL Tree. 03:41:49 70's were a great time for computers 03:43:14 mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:49:01 -!- mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:52:55 teurastaja 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[~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hello] 07:37:41 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 07:44:51 -!- sasm [~sasm@50-54-253-93.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:50:35 stis [~stis@host-90-235-68-24.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 07:55:58 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 07:56:13 moin! 07:59:07 hi wingo 07:59:17 morning C-Keen 07:59:19 what the haps? 07:59:53 lotsa peeps 08:00:38 :) 08:00:52 jjong [~user@203.246.179.177] has joined #scheme 08:04:26 hey, question. 08:04:30 about `guard' 08:05:00 both r6 and the draft r7 specify the "cond clauses" in guard as being evaluated with the continuation of the guard expression 08:05:29 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-68-24.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:05:37 but then go on to say that if no clause matched, the `raise' is re-invoked, but with the dynamic environment of the original call to `raise' 08:06:15 how does that work? are we supposed to unwind when we call exception handlers, but rewind and re-raise if the handler didn't do anything? 08:07:55 in both cases you unwind one handler 08:08:58 right 08:09:03 but what about parameters? 08:09:37 sorry, not explaining myself nicely... 08:10:36 (define f (lambda () (guard (e (#t (f))) (raise #t)))) 08:10:49 does this loop or does it cause an error? 08:11:15 the language about continuations would seem to suggest that it should loop indefinitely 08:11:35 it loops in both chibi and ikarus 08:11:51 yes 08:12:20 hmm. 08:12:28 (define f (lambda () (guard (e (#t (f))) (+ 1 (raise #t))))) 08:12:30 actually, I think I'm too sleepy to be helpful with this, because I need to refresh my memory every time it comes up :) 08:12:32 ^ and that one too? 08:12:35 hehe :) 08:12:58 yes, that too 08:13:01 cool 08:13:35 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-173-57-102-171.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:13:35 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:13:35 (and it's really not consuming more memory / stack space?) 08:13:42 The chibi implementation is very concise, and I'm reasonably sure correct. 08:13:47 i will take your word for it :) 08:14:41 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 08:15:48 but if you can find any case that seems ambiguous, please bring it up on the list 08:16:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 08:16:15 sure, was just trying to see first if i was a complete idiot or not 08:16:24 THE JURY'S STILL OUT 08:16:26 :P 08:17:35 -!- nteon [~nteon@c-98-210-195-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:17:41 oh... nm, looks like chibi leaks memory on those :/ 08:18:18 i'll look at that tomorrow 08:18:23 good night all! 08:18:26 night! 08:18:31 (list 1 2 3 4) and '(1 2 3 4) are essentially the same correct? 08:18:37 in value that is 08:19:05 yes 08:20:07 here we go 08:20:11 (define p (make-parameter 0)) 08:20:16 (define f (lambda () (guard (e ((< (p) 10) (f)) (else (p))) (parameterize ((p (+ (p) 1))) (raise #t))))) 08:20:50 (f) terminates if the exception handler is called with the dynamic context of the `raise', and not otherwise 08:20:56 C-Keen: thanks just wanted to make sure, this book says differently but maybe its more or less the implementation they are referring to 08:21:15 which book? 08:22:39 -!- danking [~danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:22:55 programming in scheme 08:22:59 -!- ada2358 [~ada2358@login.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:23:46 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:24:21 danking [~danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 08:24:36 ada2358 [~ada2358@login.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 08:26:33 EM03: the difference is that the list procedure constructs a list of its arguments, whereas the quote procedure takes its argument and returns it unevaluated 08:26:55 EM03: as you gave it a list both values will be the same wrt. equal? 08:27:32 Yea I understand 08:29:24 those are not the same lists but print the same hence equal? returns #t where as eq? does not 08:31:08 masm [~masm@bl19-194-93.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 08:33:23 #;17> (eq? "the" "the") 08:33:23 #f 08:33:28 why isn't this true? 08:33:30 1 1 is true 08:34:00 EM03 eq? is like pointer comparison. 08:34:01 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #scheme 08:34:19 so it has to be the very same object? 08:34:19 strings, numbers, characters, are not guaranteed to be eq?. 08:34:29 symbols and (eq? x x) are. 08:34:35 EM03, yes. 08:34:36 EM03: yes that's the point of eq? 08:34:43 ok got it 08:34:45 hehe 08:35:49 I know these kind of questions are super annoying with all of these docs out there but in general scheme docs do a great job at over explaining and making it seem very complicated 08:38:03 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 08:42:31 EM03: start with r5rs 08:43:34 C-Keen: yea, I'm actually almost done with this book I just skipped over a few chapters that I *thought* were similar to other things, for instance symbols in ruby are not quite the symbols in scheme 08:43:52 yes, reading helps 08:47:47 hehe 08:48:56 C-Keen: I just hate being a noob thats all 08:51:31 o/~ gotta do your time, gotta do your time / with an aching heart, and a worried mind o/~ 08:52:51 for the past 8 years all i have is learned languages, mostly because i had to because of my job(s) but still this is the first time in a while I wanted to learn something for me 08:53:16 I'm actually not that bad, I'm almost out of the complete noob stage and into novice stage 08:53:33 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:56:20 EM03: I think if you are used to programming languages, reading the standard will get you up to speed fast. Especially since r5rs is a nice to read document (and r7rs-wg1 even more so IMHO) 08:56:44 *EM03* is reading it now :P 08:57:22 C-Keen: using some old books made for mit scheme probably was not the best idea but almost everything I have tried has worked ok 08:57:51 how much chicken specific stuff is there besides the egg system etd? 08:59:37 is where? 09:00:54 etc* 09:04:20 EM03: If you are talking about the chicken implementation, extensions and deviations from the scheme standard are documented here: http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/4/Supported%20language 09:06:13 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:11:37 -!- ivartj_ [~ivartj@ti0031a380-0522.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:14:10 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:15:46 nteon [~nteon@c-98-210-195-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:16:17 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #scheme 09:17:10 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:21:50 ivartj [~ivartj@ti0031a380-0522.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 09:22:35 lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-253-151.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 09:51:51 does anyone here know how to modify how vim indents scheme? "if" is indented in a really ugly way and it's driving me nuts. everything else works fine 09:57:22 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:57:42 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 10:01:47 -!- gremset [ubuntu@117.192.110.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:27 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-253-151.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 10:17:02 misternc_ [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #scheme 10:17:02 another stupid newb question, why would one use set! over just redefining a variable? seems like the same result to me? 10:17:15 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:21:04 (define a 1)(define b 1)((lambda () (define a 2) (set! b 2) (list a b))) (list a b) 10:25:41 Shit: no one ever bothered to do a basic combinatorics SRFI, huh? 10:26:01 -!- ivartj [~ivartj@ti0031a380-0522.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:26:28 EM03: define and set! are two different things 10:26:51 defining an identifer vs setting one 10:27:12 ivartj [~ivartj@ti0031a380-0522.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 10:27:18 When was the last SRFI finalised? Does anyone think we'll ever see another (new) one? 10:28:03 And SRFI-1 doesn't shuffle lists? Damn. 10:28:22 fds: I wanted to submit an alist-lib on analogy with SRFI-69; that's trivial, though. 10:29:07 2010/06/21 was SRFI 100, define-lambda-object; so not terribly long ago. 10:29:17 Well, I think it's just as important to standardise trivial things. In fact, probably even moreso, because they run a higher risk of being reimplemented. 10:29:49 That is more recently than I thought. 10:30:09 Heh: SRFI-100 was Joo ChurlSoo, though, the notorious SRFI-troll. 10:30:57 srfi troll? :) 10:32:23 wingo: Yeah; he was responsible for things like this: . The consensus is, I believe, that SRFI-86 is an elaborate trolling device. 10:34:34 it does look elaborate, yes :) 10:36:28 C-Keen: lexical scope difference, makes sense now 10:36:45 see? reading helps :) 10:37:51 *wingo* thinks the feature identifiers from the draft r7 should be srfi and not in the standard 10:38:23 C-Keen: yes reading is good but even if I'm talking to myself sometimes it makes me feel better :P 10:38:52 :) 10:39:34 4 days I believe I will be in a much better situation 10:55:34 f8l [~f8l@213-238-105-249.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #scheme 11:08:41 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 11:09:17 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-yykkgtmbdtzkumgo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:31:17 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:40:24 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #scheme 11:52:10 -!- alexgordon [~alexgordo@beyond.conceited.net] has left #scheme 11:53:25 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:53:38 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 11:58:37 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 12:11:12 how does a double parenthesis for a lambda not throw an error? ((lambda (x) (+ x x)) 8) so essentially the outermost parenthesis just has a value of 8? or is it even considered a value? or is this some special syntax? 12:11:27 I mean I know the 8 is an argument, I'm just not saying how this traces out more or less 12:12:56 EM03, it applies the function ( (x) (+ x x)) to 8. 12:13:30 same as (let ((f ( (x) (+ x x)))) (f 8)). 12:15:29 -!- misternc_ [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:19:19 DT``: hmmm 12:20:22 I'm just not seeing how that double parenthesis is allowed like that 12:21:56 because Scheme allows the `f' in (f arg ...+) to be any expression. 12:22:06 even ((+ 2 3) 8) is allowed. 12:23:21 EM03: a parenthesis is a punctuation mark. It cannot have a value of 8. 12:24:28 EM03: for example http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html#%_toc_%_sec_1.1.3 12:24:30 http://tinyurl.com/6bou37l 12:26:01 rudybot, eval (begin (define (+ x y) (lambda (z) (+ z z))) ((+ 2 3) 8))) 12:26:02 Jafet: your sandbox is ready 12:26:03 Jafet: error: eval:1:57: read: unexpected `)' 12:26:46 You deal with them all day; how can you not expect one? 12:27:13 rudybot, eval (begin (define (+ x y) (lambda (z) (+ z z))) ((+ 2 3) 8)) 12:27:13 Jafet: ; Value: 16 12:35:22 martin_hex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 12:35:22 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:35:23 -!- martin_hex is now known as martinhex 12:37:52 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:39:27 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable041.134-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 12:40:31 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable041.134-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:39 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:41:15 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable041.134-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 12:50:22 -!- bokr [~eduska@109.110.35.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:00:40 -!- no-name- [~no-name@11.228.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [] 13:01:15 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 13:05:41 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:06:05 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable041.134-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:06:27 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable041.134-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 13:10:05 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable041.134-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:52 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable041.134-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 13:28:58 slom [~sloma@port-87-234-239-162.static.qsc.de] has joined #scheme 13:30:56 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:33 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:37:19 -!- slom [~sloma@port-87-234-239-162.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:27 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 13:40:11 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 13:48:47 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 13:51:15 DT``: (eq? x x) is not guaranteed to be true, if x is a number. See examples in R5RS. 13:52:01 strings too ;) 13:52:13 cky, I meant identity: (let ((x whatever)) (eq? x x)) 13:52:14 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 13:52:37 DT``, that's also not guaranteed to produce #t in all Schemes 13:53:06 isn't eq? for testing identity? 13:53:22 yes 13:53:24 DT``: Correct. Look at the example in R5RS re numbers: (let ((n (+ 2 3))) (eq? n n)) => unspecified 13:53:35 some values might not be identical to themselves 13:53:39 also true for procedures 13:53:47 i mean, also unspecified 13:54:06 samth: In R5RS, procedure equality is more specified, given the examples: (eq? car car) => #t 13:54:39 yes, but if you replace (+ 2 3) in your example with (lambda (x) x) it's unspecified 13:55:05 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:55:11 That's not what R5RS says, in the examples: (let ((p (lambda (x) x))) (eq? p p)) => #t 13:55:14 (See bottom example.) 13:55:15 +nan.0 is not eq? in chicken. 13:55:16 TIL. 13:55:26 DT``: Hahaha. 13:55:46 They're definitely not =, but eq? is a little more implementation-dependente. 13:55:51 s/e\./e/ 13:55:55 Uh. 13:55:57 sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 13:56:00 Throw out the e, not the full stop. :-) 13:56:56 oh, hmm, my mistake 13:59:05 cky, that's not correct of the r6rs 13:59:13 (let ((p (lambda (x) x))) 13:59:13 (eq? p p))  unspecified 13:59:26 samth: Ah, they relaxed it for R6RS, I see. :-) 13:59:56 i believe that chez exploits this in some cases 14:00:04 *nods* 14:00:05 in racket, that produces #t 14:01:04 DT``: Anyway, from the above, it should be obvious that while eq? compares some notion of object identity, what is identical is, in some cases, at implementations' discretion. 14:02:56 cky, yeah, I looked it up in r5rs and (let ((x ...)) (eq? x x)) is unspecified on numbers and characters. 14:04:01 I don't see the reason of leaving it unspecified though. 14:05:39 DT``, so that (let ([x some-character]) some-expression) can be replaced by the compiler with some-expression[some-character/x] 14:05:48 (that's a substitution, btw) 14:06:58 oh, that makes sense. 14:17:49 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-133.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:19:03 aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:19:33 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 14:20:34 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:23:34 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:29:03 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:31:58 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.90] has joined #scheme 14:31:58 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.90] has quit [Changing host] 14:31:58 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 14:37:52 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 14:59:14 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:29 it is strange though that any implementation would return #f for (let ((p (lambda (x) x)))(eq? p p)) unless they have some real wack optimization 15:00:49 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:01:45 the fact that p is referenced as a non-application, twice, should be enough to not optimize (implying not wasting time on it) 15:03:03 it is effect-free though 15:03:08 so the compiler is free to propagate it 15:03:19 actually it is not so much of an issue, just as long as (let ((x (list 1))) (eq? x x)) returns #t 15:03:34 hum, true 15:03:45 else we be screwed :) 15:04:14 imagine having to apply equal? to every list 15:04:56 Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.222.164] has joined #scheme 15:05:24 wingo: if the compiler is clever it would convert (lambda (x) x) to values 15:05:39 but then the reference would still be equal 15:05:49 ymasory [~ymasory@frank.ldc.upenn.edu] has joined #scheme 15:05:51 Hi all! 15:06:03 i dont see any benefit 15:07:01 if the compiler can see fit to emit 2 'procedures' it should do more than that 15:11:23 leppie: What if the compiler decides to do inlining? 15:12:32 'imo' stupid optimization when it is referenced in a non-applicative way 15:13:05 wow, functions are dynamically scoped in clojure. 15:13:21 scary DT`` ;] 15:13:50 ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has joined #scheme 15:14:19 leppie, scary indeed, and broken too. 15:20:03 jewel [~jewel@41-133-8-113.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:38:25 moll [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 15:49:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@41-133-8-113.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:49:20 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 16:04:17 HG` [~HG@p5DC05DA8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:06:26 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:08:01 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 16:09:13 mmc1 [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 16:10:48 -!- yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:11:00 yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 16:11:16 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 16:11:55 16:14:48 16:14:59 sorry 16:15:00 #whitespace 16:15:11 #t 16:15:33 did you see that language? 16:15:42 it's like brainfuck but with tabs and spaces and such 16:15:59 kids these days, they come up with all kinds of things. 16:16:01 wingo: It's perfect for code-golf-like contests that don't count whitespaces as characters. ;-) 16:16:16 hehe 16:16:52 yes, it is fun :) 16:17:21 wingo: Planning to implement a Whitespace interpreter for Guile? :-) 16:17:38 nope :) 16:18:55 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 16:20:27 ~~. 16:21:59 C-Keen: No, that didn't disconnect your ssh session. ;-) 16:24:00 but it disconnected mine! 16:24:04 quit doing that. 16:25:02 cky: flaky connection 16:31:19 -!- tonyg [~tonyg@navarone.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:09 -!- poindontcare [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:34:01 poindontcare [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has joined #scheme 16:35:32 C-Keen: This might cure it: +++ATH ;-) 16:35:47 wow 16:35:50 that's been a while 16:35:54 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:57 I know, right? 16:37:03 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-195.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:40:21 you've found a quick way to segregate the #scheme denizens into old versus young 16:41:03 inside every schemer is a toothless grandfather waiting to claw his way out and complain about the kids 16:41:22 hrhr 16:41:55 offby1: or perhaps African denizens vs. the rest of the world? Is there even a single one internaut still using a Hayes modem? 16:42:54 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:43:10 probably 16:43:29 when i lived in africa we had wireless to isdn 16:43:32 -!- poindontcare [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:43:34 wingo: you didn't hang out here back in The Day when I used to regularly hurl my dentures at mbishop and shout "keep offa my lawn" 16:43:48 hehe :) 16:53:50 We could try old modem phone numbers, checking if they still work... 16:54:29 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable041.134-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:25 alexgordon [~alexgordo@beyond.conceited.net] has joined #scheme 17:01:23 -!- alexgordon [~alexgordo@beyond.conceited.net] has left #scheme 17:06:48 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-217-62.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:28:39 poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has joined #scheme 17:30:04 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:39:17 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-217-62.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:42:53 jewel [~jewel@41-133-8-113.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:50:30 -!- ada2358 [~ada2358@login.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:56:37 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 18:02:47 -!- jewel [~jewel@41-133-8-113.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 18:07:42 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-94.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:07:49 choas [~lars@p5792CBB2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:07:51 jewel [~jewel@41-133-8-113.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:13:28 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:33 -!- cky [~cky@fsf/member/cky] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 18:22:50 cky [~cky@fsf/member/cky] has joined #scheme 18:25:00 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 18:39:36 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 18:48:45 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:35 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 18:49:38 wingo: agreed (re: feature identifiers => SRFI (or WG2)) 18:54:40 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC05DA8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:58:13 But you have to mail that opinion to the list! 18:58:47 Note to #scheme denizens: "me toos" on the public discussion list count. 18:59:27 (When and if we get flooded with me toos I'll setup a public polling service.) 18:59:28 HG` [~HG@p579F7355.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:02:55 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:03:14 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 19:03:51 What am I being obligated to grumble about and disagree with publicly? 19:07:02 ohwow_ [u1259@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oaruvtfmlfwgdskh] has joined #scheme 19:08:11 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:09:35 ijp [~user@host86-163-221-44.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 19:12:19 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-133.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:12:41 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 19:12:58 -!- jewel [~jewel@41-133-8-113.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:16:51 gremset [ubuntu@117.192.116.164] has joined #scheme 19:17:34 stis [~stis@host-78-79-232-224.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 19:22:12 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:22:34 djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 19:27:28 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 19:29:53 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:33:58 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 19:34:23 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 19:35:17 tonyg [~tonyg@navarone.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:35:51 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:37:08 monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:01:12 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@dublin.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 20:02:14 -!- djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:14 djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 20:06:43 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:12:22 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:17:27 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:17:40 Kneferilis__ [5d6d8465@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.109.132.101] has joined #scheme 20:18:01 Hello! What are the differences between scheme and common lisp? 20:18:22 kba [kristian@unaffiliated/wanze] has joined #scheme 20:19:31 how do I make a procedure take an arbitrary amount of arguments? 20:20:08 no-name- [~no-name@11.228.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #scheme 20:20:52 -!- joast [~rick@CPE-76-178-178-72.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:19 kba: read r5rs, it's only 50 pages. 20:23:46 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.222.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:10 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 20:24:39 pjb: ...and it's probably among the 50 most dense pages I've ever read. (Just kidding.) 20:25:03 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-234-169-164.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:25:14 Searching around lambda or define should be a good start. 20:25:22 and it's not in the 5.2 Definitions as I'd have expected 20:25:37 kba: Look at lambda. 20:26:03 kba: (define (func ...) ...) is syntactic sugar for (define func (lambda (...) ...)). 20:26:30 I've always been using define (... (lambda (... 20:26:58 how else can you give a method arguments without lambda? 20:27:16 rudybot: (define (1+ x) (+ x 1)) 20:27:17 cky: your sandbox is ready 20:27:18 cky: Done. 20:27:22 rudybot: (1+ 42) 20:27:23 cky: ; Value: 43 20:27:32 kba: That's what I meant by syntactic sugar. 20:27:56 That (define (1+ x) ...) could be written in full form as (define 1+ (lambda (x) ...)). 20:27:57 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7355.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:28:48 I see 20:29:20 Kneferilis__: http://paste.lisp.org/display/84252 20:29:54 pjb: Lol, I see that's your favourite dog-and-pony show. :-) 20:30:12 I don't understand what they have all to ask always the same silly question. 20:30:46 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 20:30:59 cky: I will have to make a (set-difference r5rs common-lisp) and (set-difference common-lisp r5rs) paste too. 20:31:21 pjb: It's understandable. All lisps look alike if you've never used them 20:31:29 pjb: what is that program? 20:31:56 More than a program, it defines the subset language that is the intersection of r5rs and Common Lisp. 20:32:09 So you can write a program that runs both on r5rs and on Common Lisp. 20:32:32 If you read carefully, you will see how limited the interestion is. That should answer your question about the difference between Scheme and Common Lisp. 20:32:34 should you lose any interest in writing a useful program ... 20:33:07 ijp: well, not necessarily, because while small, it's still turing complete, and you could write a r5rs or a CL implementation over it. 20:33:16 pjb: so, you just pick one of the two and it suffices you? 20:33:53 Yes. 20:34:02 I figured it out, define func (lambda (v1 . v2) ... ), that will put the first argument into v1 and make v2 a list of all additional, optional arguments 20:34:09 kba: great! 20:34:20 pjb: but doesn't common lisp has more libraries than scheme? 20:34:23 All questions can be answered by the reference documents. 20:34:33 I didn't really use that ;-) 20:34:59 Kneferilis__: I'm not sure. My bet would be that they have the same number of libraries. 20:35:15 pjb: ok 20:35:33 Kneferilis__: practically, however, the difference is that there is more variability between scheme implementation, because r5rs specifies a much smaller language than Common Lisp. 20:36:00 I dreamt last night I was using my bank card to buy a pie and the clerk said that the eftpos machine returned an error - something to do with lambda. 20:36:40 Kneferilis__: in practice it meant that each time I tried to learn scheme, it was a different language (I happened to try it on different computers with different implementations)., so I didn't retain it, while each time I tried Common Lisp (also different computers and different iimplementations) it was the same thing, so I retained it. 20:37:18 pjb: I see 20:37:23 I have to go to sleep 20:37:33 pjb: thanks for the information 20:37:36 goodnight 20:37:38 Good night! 20:37:39 -!- Kneferilis__ [5d6d8465@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.109.132.101] has left #scheme 20:40:23 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:41:17 sstrickl [~sstrickl@c-71-192-163-167.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:50:52 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@frank.ldc.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:52:03 foof: thanks for the encouragement (regarding feature identifiers); will mail! 20:54:10 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-234-169-164.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:57:50 -!- f8l [~f8l@213-238-105-249.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 21:06:40 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-112-117.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:11:39 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 21:11:57 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-112-117.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:18 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-140-134.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:12:33 -!- edw [~user@70-89-62-209-philadelphia-panjde.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:33 gremset_ [ubuntu@117.192.99.163] has joined #scheme 21:15:22 -!- gremset [ubuntu@117.192.116.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:27:50 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-140-134.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:28:26 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:30:05 -!- djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:31:44 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-140-134.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:31:45 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 21:34:53 -!- choas [~lars@p5792CBB2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:35:51 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 21:38:41 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:40:11 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 21:42:53 -!- XTL [~XTL@dsl-olubrasgw2-fe6af800-251.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:45:23 I'm not sure if this is a stupid question, but what can I do with SRFI-14 character sets? I've made one, and I'd like to construct char->integer and integer->char style functions using this character set. Is that possible? 21:45:36 ymasory [~ymasory@seas588.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu] has joined #scheme 21:46:10 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:46:46 fds: I don't think that's what a char-set is for. 21:46:53 What is it for? 21:47:02 And how can I do what I want to do? :-) 21:47:20 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 21:47:38 It's to represent a bitmap of characters. e.g., it's easy to represent [a-z] or even [acegikmoqsuwy] as a char-set. 21:47:43 Do I need to manually create a table of all the characters I want with values associated with them? 21:47:51 Because that would be tedious. :-\ 21:47:56 What are you trying to do? 21:48:34 Basically, I'm trying to create a toy encryption/decryption program for educational purposes 21:48:47 I'm implementing ROT13. 21:49:08 Not my education, for the record, the education of smaller people. :-) 21:49:48 But, I only want to use a subset of all the characters Guile knows about... 21:50:05 Say, printable ASCII, or something like that 21:53:54 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-155-62.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:54:45 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:55:48 -!- aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 21:56:13 doesn't sound like what _I_ use character sets for. 21:56:18 I use 'em for splitting a string, e.g. 21:56:38 the set would be space, tab, maybe something else; then I say "please split this string on any character found in this set" 21:56:40 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-140-134.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:57:24 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 21:57:52 Hm, I see. Which function(s) do you use to split the string? I suppose they take a character set as an argument? 21:58:19 I've really never done anything with character sets before today. 21:58:26 So I don't know anything. 21:58:48 XTL [~XTL@dsl-olubrasgw2-fe6af800-251.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 22:00:01 cky pasted "rot13, for fds" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122107 22:00:20 fds: A character set is exactly like a [] expression in a regex. 22:00:39 fds: Anyway, ^^ is how I would implement rot13 in Scheme. 22:01:12 *cky* BRB. 22:01:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-94.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:16 Hrmm 22:03:55 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-154-65.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:05:55 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:06:39 But, that procedure has a lot of rot13 in it, if that makes any sense. Say I wanted to use rot14 instead, let alone "mult by 3 and add 2" 22:07:19 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-155-62.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:07:21 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 22:07:21 I want to create a framework in which they can play around with their own little crypto algorithms. 22:09:18 fds: I think there's a function called "string-split" in srfi/14 22:10:31 fds: here's an old thing I did: http://ix.io/1GL 22:12:15 Hm, I can't see string-split here: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-14/srfi-14.html In fact, I can't see anything about _using_ character sets at all.. :-s 22:12:19 But, thanks for the paste. 22:12:23 *fds* reads 22:14:24 -!- stis [~stis@host-78-79-232-224.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:18 Did you guys see this, btw: ? 22:15:25 I'm offended yet intrigued. 22:15:47 I saw the page but it has non-text screenshots so I didn't pursue it further. 22:16:09 fds: Re crypto. Have you considered working with streams? That's how I implemented my CipherSaber. :-P 22:16:48 fds: http://codepad.org/B0cDjRS5 22:17:11 fds: Also, offby1 wrote an implementation too, and you should check it out. 22:17:58 cky, now extend your cipher sabre to support public-key encryption, public-key signature, and public-key secret sharing, and secret-key message authentication. 22:18:50 cky: I've still got that on my computer. :-) But, no, I hadn't thought of that; I'm just trying to get something simple than can be played around with by people who have very little knowledge of Scheme, programming, cryptography or mathematics. 22:19:09 Riastradh: Will do. I'll get back to you when I finish. ;-) 22:19:56 What's public-key secret sharing, BTW? I think I know the other three. 22:21:33 It's Diffie and Hellman's original public-key cryptosystem from 1976. You randomly generate a, and publish g^a. I'll randomly generate b, and publish g^b. You can use a and g^b to compute (g^b)^a = g^ab, and I can use b and g^a to compute (g^a)^b = g^ab. Now we have a shared secret for secret-key ciphers and authenticators. 22:22:06 These days it is used pretty much exclusively for ephemeral session keys in order to provide perfect forward secrecy of conversations. 22:22:23 Right, I see. 22:23:00 With regard to secret-key message authentication, I'm just going to implement HMAC, because that's what I know best. 22:23:20 A few years ago I implemented MD5 in pure Scheme for fun. I'll extend it to support SHA-1 and SHA-2. 22:23:34 And then people can use HMAC-SHA512 if they want. 22:23:58 -!- mmc1 [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:48 mmc1 [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 22:26:52 MD5 and its derivatives are pretty hairy... I'm sure you can find more elegant tools than those and HMAC for your sabre. 22:28:04 :-) 22:31:31 You're a djb fan, aren't you? Maybe you would be happier instantiating Poly1305 with some block cipher that's simpler than AES. 22:35:30 -!- pygospa is now known as phillu 22:35:51 klutometis, that's awesome 22:38:29 Riastradh: Anything and everything pertaining to R7RS, which will happen and will influence Scheme implementors and programmers around you even if you ignore it directly. 22:41:53 Riastradh: I'll give that a look. Thanks! 22:42:19 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-154-65.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:42:40 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:43:12 -!- phillu is now known as Drachi___ 22:44:24 -!- Drachi___ is now known as katzoo 22:45:59 -!- katzoo is now known as Drachii 22:48:43 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-99-155-223-246.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:49:59 -!- Drachii is now known as pygospa 22:50:42 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable182.177-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:53:10 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-99-155-223-246.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:53:14 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-107-161.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:58:25 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:00:01 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:00:11 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:00:32 pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has joined #scheme 23:03:30 czakian [~czakian@c-98-223-184-248.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:12:10 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:13:15 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@seas588.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:20:48 ignis_ [~quassel@cpe-66-74-76-152.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:25:32 -!- teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable182.177-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: --> Put something intelligent here when I'm more bored <--] 23:25:41 bzzbzz_ [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:26:17 rudybot_ [~luser@ec2-204-236-167-175.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 23:28:07 -!- duncanm [~duncan@a-chinaman.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:28:09 duncanm_ [~duncan@a-chinaman.com] has joined #scheme 23:28:09 la la la 23:28:22 sepisult1um [enigma@hcl-club.lu] has joined #scheme 23:28:34 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:31:46 soveran_ [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 23:32:40 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:32:40 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:32:40 -!- ivartj [~ivartj@ti0031a380-0522.bb.online.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:32:40 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:32:40 -!- sepisultrum [enigma@hcl-club.lu] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:32:40 -!- rudybot [~luser@ec2-204-236-167-175.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:34:38 ivartj [~ivartj@ti0031a380-0522.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 23:38:43 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 23:39:34 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 23:39:39 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 23:40:44 must be a duncanm_ around here somewhere! 23:43:15 botnick [~luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 23:43:53 -!- botnick [~luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:44 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 23:51:58 Hi. I'm wondering if anyone knows of any nice tutorials or advice about debugging/tracing in Scheme? I realize it probably varies a lot from one implementation to another. I happen to be using Chicken but would be interested in reading about others if they have something neat in that area. 23:52:11 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #scheme 23:52:21 Specifically I'm working through the SICP book and am at chapter 4.1.7. It describes a mechanism for writing a scheme evaluator in scheme that separates the evaluation of expressions from their execution for performance reasons. 23:53:12 kba pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122110 23:53:28 I'm having a bit of a hard time fully grokking how its process runs in comparison to the previous meta circular evaluator that had eval calling apply and apply calling eval expression by expression. It would be nice to see a call graph or something visual but don't know if that is something easy to do. I've used the trace function before but in this case most of the execution is done via anonymous lambdas and don't know how to trace those 23:53:28 since a call to trace doesn't seem to return the function that it is tracing 23:54:07 could somebody please look at that paste? It's very short 23:55:19 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-194-93.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55:54 fulmene [~fulmene@pool-74-108-80-19.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:56:11 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.149] has joined #scheme 23:56:57 -!- fulmene [~fulmene@pool-74-108-80-19.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:57:00 oh never mind, I figured it out 23:59:15 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.90] has joined #scheme 23:59:15 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.45.135.90] has quit [Changing host] 23:59:15 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme