00:00:16 -!- evhan [~evhan@li321-76.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:00:48 possible the authors pontificate less? 00:02:24 tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has joined #scheme 00:03:09 evhan [~evhan@li321-76.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 00:05:02 bremner_: Yeah; maybe you hit it on the head. There's a pragmatic humility about R; Python has some kind of weird "Gott sei Dank we cast off the shackles of Lisp!" thing. For instance, . 00:05:57 guido kill lambda? zounds. 00:06:11 oops. read the second paragraph 00:07:26 Yeah, he finally lost; but not before I abandoned Python because of the anti-lambda hubris. This is funny (from ): 00:07:36 "It would require allowing multi-line lambda expressions which would mean a multi-line expression could suddenly exist. That would allow for multi-line arguments to function calls, for instance. That is just plain ugly." 00:08:52 "Ugliness" was their argument for not allowing statements in lambda; that's just weird to me. Not that ugliness is desirable, but rather that the author of the PEP is an aesthetic authority of some kind. 00:09:40 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:11:24 Are you an aesthetic authority, klutometis? 00:11:39 we all are, in #scheme. 00:13:29 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:14:13 Riastradh: Possibly; but only to the extent that my aesthetic judgements achieve consensus. I'm not a subjectivist aesthete, but a Kantian one (): 00:14:21 "[Aesthetic] judgments are both universal and necessary. This means roughly that it is an intrinsic part of the activity of such a judgment to expect others to agree with us." 00:14:37 -!- kenjin2202 [~kenjin@58.230.108.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:37 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@58.230.108.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:50 What makes you think the aforementioned aesthetic judgement is not a consensus among Python programmers? 00:15:49 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:16:20 That's entirely plausible; I'm not sure why I hold their opinions in such disregard, though, that I consider such a consensus irrelevant. 00:16:27 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #scheme 00:16:28 Maybe I'm an asshole, after all. 00:17:02 Maybe that's a necessary and sufficient condition for being considered an "aesthetic authority," though, in a qualified sense. 00:17:23 (Consensus in a given group, that is, not asshole-dom.) 00:17:54 I think your sentence works better with `asshole' as the referent for `that'. 00:19:16 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:20:13 Heh; maybe that explains those characteristic personality traits by which critics have earned revulsion. 00:20:34 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 00:23:25 -!- pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:23:34 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:25:51 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:26:21 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4d06670c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:26:34 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbeca0b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 00:28:36 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #scheme 00:30:07 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:30:57 -!- DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-39-13.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:35 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-142.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:43:54 DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-36-253.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 00:43:57 pyrony [~epic@184-223-140-42.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #scheme 00:44:56 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-202.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:44:57 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-202.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:47:06 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:47:41 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:52:15 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:56:31 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #scheme 01:01:27 -!- githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:15 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 01:12:33 -!- pyrony [~epic@184-223-140-42.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:14:10 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:26:46 Lectus [~fred@189.104.145.126] has joined #scheme 01:28:18 cky: around? It turns out I don't understand whats wrong. When you applied patches, did you see 8 in total, the last one 0008-Disable-building-the-scribble-docs-for-scribble.patch ? 01:28:39 bremner_: Uh, let's see.... 01:29:35 Is that in patch-queue/dfsg? I don't see that file, either in the debian directory or in the "git log". 01:30:13 ahh, I get it. Gimme a minute... 01:33:04 cky: can you pull patch-queue/dfsg ? 01:33:56 sigh. I pushed the tag, but not the branch it pointed to. 01:35:03 Hehehehe. Doing that now. 01:37:07 YokYok [~david@nietwork.net] has joined #scheme 01:38:08 samth: that's a common misconception; if you're dealing with computation in any form, then you're a constructivist too. (And even more: the kind of magic tricks that you get in classical logic are often perceived as cheating, so IMO most people tend to generally be "more constructivists".) 01:38:19 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:40:09 eli, i think constructivism is a category error 01:40:34 what's a constructivist 01:41:05 samth: I have no idea what you mean by that. 01:41:10 kilimanja: A programmer. 01:41:59 eli, constructivism is a belief about what kind of mathematical proofs are good 01:42:23 Huh? 01:42:35 "Belief" is completely out of place. 01:42:36 whereas i think the question is ill-formed -- proofs are symbol manipulation 01:42:40 "good" is too. 01:42:52 how would you characterize constructivism? 01:43:07 "Computational". 01:43:56 that's not a characterization of anything 01:44:11 do you disagree that constructivism is a claim about mathematics? 01:44:24 Yes. 01:44:29 There is no claim. 01:44:54 must. not. make. matrix. joke. 01:45:26 samth: If you want to get technical, then constructive logic is simply not considering the axiom of choice as an axiom. 01:45:28 So eli's definition of a constructivist is anyone who is dealing with computation in any form? 01:45:42 eli, right, i agree with that 01:46:23 samth: So that's it -- there is no belief and no subjective claims like "good proofs". 01:46:23 however, constructivism is usually associated with the belief (going back to Brouwer) that it is a good idea not to use double negation 01:46:46 also, i take back my agreement -- constructivism predates the existence of the axiom of choice 01:47:08 I have never heard anything remotely close to something being "a good idea" in this context. 01:47:42 (And you're talking about intuitionistic logic, which is a kind of a philosophical parent.) 01:48:02 no, intuitionism and constructivism are basically the same thing 01:48:43 you are arguing about the meaning of those words when eli has already specified his meaning of them 01:48:55 you should just accuse him of being wrong and then get back to work on something productive 01:49:01 kilimanja, these are words with well-accepted technical meanings 01:49:04 No, the first predates (and got developed to) the latter. Brouwer would probably not know what you're talking about if you'd mention "constructive logic". 01:50:03 ok, how about this: Brouwer thought that mathemeticians of his time were doing math wrong 01:50:07 do you disagree? 01:50:13 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:50:13 Intuitionistic logic had a bunch of weird stuff in it about possible futures and stuff like that. 01:50:28 Constructive logic is much more "simple minded" in that regard. 01:50:57 that's not a neccessary feature of intuitionistic logic 01:51:07 Whatever Brouwer thought about the lgicians of his time is irrelevant now. 01:51:56 These days, it is way simpler to just say that contructive logic is something that revolves around "computability". 01:52:02 if all you mean by constructivist is someone who sometimes uses constructive logic, then fine 01:52:34 but lots of things in constructive logic are non-computable 01:53:21 Yes, you can obviously talk about things that are not computable. 01:53:30 I don't see how that's relevant though. 01:54:06 it makes your simplification false 01:54:13 ok, i have a talk to finish 01:54:15 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.223.74] has joined #scheme 01:55:30 My simplification was "revolving *around* computability" -- not restricted to computable facts only. 01:56:01 It's the ability to talk about things that are computable and things that are not -- something that classical logic is inherently bad at. 01:56:27 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.214.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:56:27 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 01:56:53 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:58:18 Is it really _inherently_ bad at it by itself? Or perhaps because the problems weren't dealt with the right perspective or manner 02:01:09 Is there anything that's not computable? 02:01:42 r u serious? 02:01:55 open, here i agree with eli -- classical logic is bad at talking about these things 02:02:16 bremner_: I think the universe is a computer simulation. Therefore is there anything that cannot be computed? 02:02:32 well, there is the halting problem 02:03:04 pjb: That drives down to the philosophical question of whether or not you're a hard determinist. From my experiences, most people aren't 02:06:24 What the halting problem proves is that there does not exist any function mapping algorithms to boolean indicating whether the algorithm terminates. 02:06:35 It doesn't say there's any function that's not computable. 02:08:52 okey doke. 02:08:59 pjb: busy beaver 02:09:39 it's actually semi-computable, but I think it lends itself to arguing that collatz, goldbach etc are uncomputable 02:10:18 I hate to invoke chaitin, but halting probability? 02:11:23 Ok, I have to revise my definition of computable. 02:13:26 -!- YokYok [~david@nietwork.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:13:56 open: Yes, it is really inherently limited. 02:28:06 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-142.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:33:00 chupish [182e1463@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.20.99] has joined #scheme 02:33:24 ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:39:20 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-140.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:39:22 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-qmmczuasfnfvktdo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:45:56 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 02:58:59 Checkie [2462@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 02:59:59 offby1 [~user@ec2-204-236-167-175.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 03:00:04 -!- offby1 [~user@ec2-204-236-167-175.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Changing host] 03:00:04 offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 03:01:40 -!- poucet [~chris@li23-146.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:09:47 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-dveencslazcgqmvd] has joined #scheme 03:15:04 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:16:49 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #scheme 03:27:05 -!- nteon [~nteon@c-98-210-195-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:11 zbigniew_ [~zb@ipv6.3e8.org] has joined #scheme 03:31:02 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:31:18 -!- zbigniew_ is now known as zbigniew 03:34:29 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:35:44 Hwæt! 03:37:07 hi jcowan :) 03:37:09 how goes? 03:39:03 Pretty good. This week is a good one at work; I'm getting things done rather than just attending meetings and hanging out on IRC. :-) 03:39:24 yay :) 03:42:44 elly: I'm not sure if you're planning to do hyphenated last names, but if so, this article was interesting: http://www.saidit.org/archives/jun06/article3.html 03:43:03 (I have a hyphenated last name, and run into the same crap she does. :-( ) 03:44:40 cky: we are not changing our last names 03:44:51 Bravo! I salute you. :-) 03:44:59 My parents got a tax refund check addressed, believe it or not, to "THOMAS A. COWAN AND WF". My mother asked the bank, "How do I endorse this?" 03:45:14 YokYok [~david@v6.nietwork.net] has joined #scheme 03:45:38 we are not sure what to do about children, though 03:46:08 elly: I wanted for both of us to keep our names, but my wife wanted us to have a shared last name, so hyphenated was a mutual compromise. 03:46:29 My wife surprised everyone by changing her name to mine. 03:46:29 elly: You don't want to come up with a wholly orthogonal third name which you can adopt as you last names? 03:46:44 klutometis: That was something we explored too. 03:46:45 klutometis: we both like our last names 03:46:48 klutometis: But coming up with a good name is hard. 03:46:51 It was because "her" name was actually her first husband's name. When they divorced, she didn't have the extra $$ to change her name back, so she never did. 03:47:33 jcowan: That makes a lot of sense. 03:47:51 cky: Indeed; but xkcd-magnitude good times are in store if one has the guts to Little-Bobby-Tablicize themselves. 03:48:14 klutometis: ;-) 03:50:00 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 03:51:51 My sister hyphenated her last name. I don't know if she's had any trouble with it. 03:52:53 My wife took my last name, which may cause minor nuisances in Japan, but much less so than a hyphenated name. 03:55:42 I'll say. How would you even do the hyphenation typographically? 03:56:41 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:57:45 X-Scale [email@89.180.193.41] has joined #scheme 03:58:40 Yeah, that would be weird - she'd probably have to convert the kanji to Latin or choose a kanji for my last name and just not use a hyphen. 03:59:41 It may have made more sense for me to take her name. Technically I'd have to anyway if I ever naturalized. 04:00:19  might be appropriate. 04:00:26 -!- chupish [182e1463@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.20.99] has left #scheme 04:00:36 Hmm, I don't think that came out. 04:01:14 Not here, but there are lots of good characters for my last name. 04:02:02 "Truth" being the most likely suspect. 04:02:11 *jcowan* chuckles. 04:02:21 Some of them are Korean-marked, though, so you probably want to avoid them. 04:02:30 (Unless you are Korean.) 04:03:36 The spelling of my name with two n's is common among Koreans, but I'm of English descent. 04:03:48 *jcowan* nods. 04:04:26 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:12 _Shin_ is the direct descendant of the Old English word for 'skin, hide', displaced in the standard dialect by Norse _skin_. You probably had ancestors who were skinners by trade. 04:05:21 http://www.beth-website.net/ShinnHistory.html 04:06:59 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:09:19 If you go to Shinnstown, West Virginia you'll find a lot of my distant relatives :) 04:13:38 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:14:37 "Sinningas means descendants of Sinn or Sinna" sounds a little doubtful, because you now need an explanation of Sinn or Sinna. 04:17:01 -!- Lectus [~fred@189.104.145.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:20:38 jcowan: "Turtles all the way down" is considered genealogically harmful? 04:20:59 Say what? 04:21:02 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-dveencslazcgqmvd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:21:40 At some point, trying to achieve the genealogical first-cause runs dry. 04:21:50 foof: So basically you're a gwailo who happens to have an Asian-sounding last name. :-) I'm the reverse: I'm an Asian with a gwailo-sounding last name. 04:23:38 *cky* is using the term gwailo in a completely non-derogatory way. (Not everyone is quite so neutral about the use of that term, so I felt the need to clarify.) 04:25:40 *eli* google gwailo 04:26:03 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable182.177-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 04:26:34 -!- teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable182.177-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 04:27:12 eli: tl;dr version: it's a Cantonese term used by Chinese people in Hong Kong to refer to non-Chinese people, especially Caucasians. 04:27:28 Google are really overdoing the whole logo thing. 04:27:33 Hehehehe. 04:27:55 I don't remember the last time it was the plain one. 04:29:22 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.212.82] has joined #scheme 04:30:52 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 04:30:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.223.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:30:57 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 04:41:43 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-wkxeisplphlpkjjs] has joined #scheme 04:43:52 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 04:56:38 cky: In Japan it's gaijin, not gwailo ;) 05:00:47 eli: I was going to ask you if it was animated, but TIL that Opera doesn't do animated PNGs; damn. 05:03:14 *eli* google "TIL" and immediately regrets doing so 05:03:59 lolcow [~lolcow@196-215-49-168.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:04:06 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-49-168.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:04:29 EM03 [~dfsdfdsf@unaffiliated/em03] has joined #scheme 05:04:38 what is this #:something syntax? 05:04:57 eli: Why's that: it's an unfortunate news-aggregatorism? 05:07:19 klutometis: s/google/googles/, and regret is due to the obnoxious animation. 05:07:30 EM03: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/reader.html?q=%23%3A#(idx._(gentag._204._(lib._scribblings/reference/reference..scrbl))) 05:07:32 EM03: That's the syntax for keyword values in Racket. 05:09:22 what is the point of using a keyword over just passing the value as a string or variable? 05:10:32 whats the equiv of something like this in Python? or whatever language I don't see how this is useful 05:12:08 foof: ;-) 05:12:27 also do you guys ever use emacs for racket programing 05:13:04 EM03: I use Emacs (with Paredit) for writing any Scheme code, including ones targeting Racket. 05:13:13 also although I have got what I think of most of the syntax down ....I really have done about 20 exercises now. I'm getting much more comfotable with it. but like #lang web server or #lang slideshow etc what exactly is that doing? preloading some modules? 05:13:32 the newest emacs has anti aliased fonts :P 05:14:21 #lang sets the language. For example, if I implement GolfScript in Racket, you could write #lang golfscript and write the rest of the program in GolfScript. 05:14:24 EM03: No shit? That's totally invisible to the `emacs -nw' crowd. 05:14:52 I believe 23.1 was the first release to have a a 05:14:55 and it looks beautiful 05:15:20 so #lang slideshow is not scheme? 05:15:35 I can't find any docs on this 05:15:44 I'm sure they are there somewhere 05:16:01 In practice, most languages used in Racket are S-expression-based. 05:16:49 it looked to me #lang slideshow was just using scheme with some already defined functions 05:16:52 is that what its not doing? 05:16:57 its a whole new language? hmm 05:17:23 It probably borrows a lot of features from Scheme, yes. 05:17:30 hmm 05:17:41 It's like if you use #lang swindle; technically it's a separate language, but it actually is standard Racket with lots of features added. 05:17:41 so lang webserver is not really scheme either? hmmm 05:17:43 not sure if i like this 05:17:56 so how can you mix stuff up? 05:18:10 can I use something from lang web server from lang racket? 05:18:36 *cky* isn't au fait enough with Racket to answer that. Ask eli. ;-) 05:19:53 hmm 05:20:04 you don't know? hehe this seems pretty simple 05:21:30 EM03: Racket is more complex than your average Scheme, IMO; less mock, more Chicken! 05:21:47 *EM03* is getting even more confused 05:22:00 I dont mind the complexity really as long as there is a path 05:22:21 i would like to use the web server stuff inside of the "racket" language 05:22:59 ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-173-71-46-119.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:23:44 EM03: You can probably require a certain module to make that happen. 05:23:45 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:24:04 this seems like something that would be very common 05:24:34 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:25:42 -!- lolcow is now known as leppie 05:26:59 I can see why racket has some more issues getting used in production the path is not as straight forward as python ruby php etc .....production meaning web for me :P 05:28:44 EM03: Yeah, but Chicken is straightforward; been using it in production for years. 05:29:17 well the front line part of the racket website mentioning web server had my attention 05:32:14 i dont like this whole racket is this or that its not scheme but it is scheme well racket is racket 05:32:23 and it seems many others have had an issue with this as well 05:35:15 EM03: Jesus, man: tautologies and punctuationlessness. What's up with Jugendkultur these days? 05:35:44 I'm confused :) 05:42:11 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.212.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:42:17 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-133-103.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:47:24 nteon [~nteon@c-98-210-195-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:48:00 -!- nteon [~nteon@c-98-210-195-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:48:20 nteon [~nteon@c-98-210-195-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:52:03 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 06:06:40 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:06:49 klutometis: chicken does not look to bad 06:06:56 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 06:09:45 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-133-103.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:16:33 -!- docgnome [~docgnome@web169.webfaction.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:17:16 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:20:16 docgnome [~docgnome@web169.webfaction.com] has joined #scheme 06:22:16 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:30:31 EM03: klutometis was commenting your extremely lax omission of punctuation. 06:30:39 05:32:14 < EM03> i dont like this whole racket is this or that its not scheme but it is scheme well racket is racket 06:30:42 ^^--- Especially this line. 06:30:54 *commenting on, most likely 06:31:44 I'd probably have written that as: I don't like this whole "Racket is this" or that "it's not Scheme but it is Scheme". Well, Racket is Racket. 06:32:15 EM03: Notice how there's at least 9 punctuation characters more than yours. :-P 06:41:11 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 06:43:22 cky: ah :) 06:43:59 well thats sorta how I feel on that subject in racket :) so it sorta gives an accurate representation 06:45:57 EM03: Right, but strategically-placed punctuation makes everything easier to read. :-P 06:46:08 Yes your correct for sure 06:46:54 Or, as the saying goes: My eyes! The goggles do nothing! 06:46:56 :-P 06:48:12 At my job we worked with quite a few germans and eastern europeans, not punctuation in many cases could result in a completely different outcome 06:48:24 Indeed. 06:49:13 you can get by with it in most cases with people who use english everyday as your mind usually puts the punctuation in there but even then its better to have it hehe 06:50:41 It depends on who's doing the writing, too, and how they approach language. For example, you will never see any omission of punctuation from, say, Riastradh or me, even if the sentence is otherwise parseable without them. 06:51:36 but the sentence still explains how my brain feels on this racket stuff. What #lang racket really means I have no idea at this point. I just know its basic syntax and around 50 functions 06:52:07 EM03: You just gotta swot up on docs.racket-lang.org. 06:52:33 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:52:35 been on there for a while ....I can't find anything on the whole #lang thing except more examples of different #langs 06:54:22 .oO(Wow, looking at scrollback, I see that quite a few people on this channel write with perfectly-punctuated sentences too! Nice.) 06:56:08 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 07:04:49 EM03: Yeah, man; I've been using Chicken for various government and biotech projects (including web) since probably 2008. It also has a web server: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/spiffy 07:06:25 atomx_ [59eed542@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.238.213.66] has joined #scheme 07:06:36 klutometis: Biotech...you don't happen to live in the Research Triangle, do you? Just trying to see how small of a world this is. 07:07:55 -!- atomx [59eed542@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.238.213.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:07:59 -!- kilimanja [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:08:59 -!- saiko-chriskun [~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 07:09:40 cky: Wow; RTP looks great. No, unfortunately; I'm currently spanning Northern and Southern California. 07:09:52 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:10:17 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:11:14 klutometis: Ah, I see. (/me does live in the Triangle, but does not work in biotech.) 07:11:22 How's the cost of living there, btw? I'm might be looking for an exit-strategy from California. 07:12:23 Well, it's much better than the Bay Area. Currently we live in a 4-bedroom, 2100 sq ft place for $1600 a month, which is (I'm told) atypically high for this area. 07:13:09 We recently bought a 3-bedroom house for ~$170k, with mortgage payments of around $900 a month. 07:13:47 That's not a typical price for a house (usually I see houses listed for higher), but it's an example of how low one might go if one shops around. 07:14:04 Wow, fantastic. 07:14:07 where is the triangle again? 07:14:23 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-202.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 07:14:25 EM03: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_Triangle <-- Raleigh, Durham, and Chapel Hill, NC. 07:14:41 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:15:04 i prefer the midwest for housing prices 07:15:13 when I was in san diego crap was way more 07:15:43 Right, but the Triangle actually has a Nerd Presence (tm), unlike most places in the Midwest. :-) 07:15:49 in Ohio 220K can get you a great house very new and large hehe 07:16:12 Cleveland and Columbus are very tech cities ....Columbus even more 07:16:23 *nods* 07:16:25 home of compuserve, how in the world could it not be? hehe 07:17:16 The Triangle is the home of, let's see, Red Hat, SAS, Epic Games, etc. 07:17:48 I just said compuserve for nostalgia purposes hehe 07:17:58 pretty much the first mainstream isp for the whole us 07:18:25 It's also the home of Relevance, but that's surely less relevant (har har) on this channel than in #clojure. :-P 07:21:47 at one time compuserve was pretty much the internet heh, good old days 07:23:19 Fido > CompuServe. :-P (Just kidding; I've never really used either.) 07:23:28 *FidoNet 07:24:11 yea heheh 07:27:29 stis [~stis@host-90-232-241-255.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 07:31:18 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-140.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 07:40:27 -!- X-Scale [email@89.180.193.41] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:40:38 X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has joined #scheme 07:40:38 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 07:46:42 I'm going to use racket for this project, I'm to deep into it so far. Most people are not this persistent many scheme users probably learned it at a univ 07:47:21 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-173-71-46-119.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:52:50 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-140.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:54:15 EM03: I learnt Scheme many years after leaving university. :-P 07:54:47 cky: yea, but it seems many do learn it at a univ 07:56:12 kilimanja [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 07:59:17 I learnt scheme when I went to do my masters, though they had stopped teaching it a few years before 07:59:55 it gave me something to be aggressively opinionated about (ah the joys of mature age study) 08:05:12 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-wkxeisplphlpkjjs] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:05:37 how old were you aspect ? 08:06:54 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-xzrfwdxzoiddfxvh] has joined #scheme 08:19:56 slom [~sloma@port-87-234-239-162.static.qsc.de] has joined #scheme 08:20:47 -!- monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hello] 08:25:14 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:29:45 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 08:38:09 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:47:50 EM03: his IP address is 1. 08:48:13 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #scheme 08:48:22 lol 08:48:33 alinrus [~alinrus@unaffiliated/alinrus] has joined #scheme 08:48:36 I learnt Scheme when I read SICP at age 16 08:48:51 Lucky! 08:48:57 Now exactly half my life ago... I got SICP for my 16th birthday; I turned 32 a few weeks ago. 08:49:01 Yay powers of two 08:50:20 oy alaricsp 08:56:32 -!- vk0 [~vk@ip-23-75.bnaa.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:03:23 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-232-241-255.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:03:53 stis [~stis@host-90-232-241-255.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 09:05:06 'lo C-Keen 09:05:56 alaricsp: wow 16 years 09:06:08 vk0 [~vk@ip-23-75.bnaa.dk] has joined #scheme 09:06:12 I've been programming in general since 16 09:06:16 first language was basic 09:06:33 I started with BASIC at 7 or 8 on my old ZX Spectrum+ 09:06:44 then quickly PHP, then Python and Ruby Lua for a while C and objective C and ocaml ....now scheme 09:07:06 I shall pretend it was 8 to preserve the attractive 'powers of 2' theme 09:07:11 although back in 2003 or so i did do a bit of scheme but (+ 2 2) had me wondering so I quickly switched to something else 09:07:14 stupid decision 09:12:10 -!- gremset [ubuntu@117.192.106.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:12:58 -!- slom [~sloma@port-87-234-239-162.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:17:31 *wingo* trolls scheme-reports 09:18:09 alaricsp: you mean you turned 20! 09:18:17 #x20 09:18:41 wingo: Yes ;-) 09:20:03 I'm #23r20 09:20:51 hehe 09:21:07 ±1 09:21:34 +nan.0 09:22:39 For a time, I had a certificate of IBM 1401 programmer to my name, dated 1968 (I'm born 1964). 09:22:56 But it was my father's, they just didn't print the first name. 09:24:12 an elegant certificate for a more civilized age 09:26:39 That said, while I didn't programming at 2^2, at 2^3 I was close to it. I already had boolean algebra :-) 09:39:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:47:34 bokr [~eduska@109.110.36.4] has joined #scheme 09:51:58 *EM03* is getting old .....23 09:53:01 masm [~masm@bl15-234-183.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 09:53:19 EM03: clearly, yes. 09:53:49 I know its not super old but if i think back to when I first started programming it feels like ages ago 09:56:56 you're not going to get much sympathy in this channel :) 09:58:48 I'm just going on like 3 days with scheme. the reason I'm getting into it really is just because I hate programming, and scheme as it seems in so many ways allows me to work with logic more than language features 09:59:18 Ruby for instance has syntax for like everything and I wonder if even half is truly needed 10:00:55 skld [~skld@vpn.bangalore.geodesic.com] has joined #scheme 10:00:55 -!- skld [~skld@vpn.bangalore.geodesic.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:00:55 skld [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has joined #scheme 10:01:20 -!- skld [~skld@unaffiliated/skld] has left #scheme 10:01:21 bluewres [~Unknown@c-76-102-87-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:03:50 -!- amoe [~amoe@cpc1-brig13-0-0-cust658.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:18:05 that's how scheme seduced me too 10:18:29 it's like a studio for experimenting with algorithms rather than wrestling with the language 10:21:56 -!- bluewres [~Unknown@c-76-102-87-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:33:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 10:38:27 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:38:45 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 10:45:02 -!- kilimanja [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:46:34 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:46:49 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 10:55:29 kuribas [~user@d54C43D8A.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 10:58:29 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:04:05 aspect: I would much rather work with the problem than solutions of the tool 11:04:15 The tool part should be almost invisible 11:04:29 I thought smalltalk was going to do that for me, but its almost even worse, everything is a tool heh 11:04:52 the trouble is the tools are so exciting it's easy to get distracted :) 11:05:07 i love tools :) 11:05:16 ... and then you wind up trying to come up with the perfect macro system, and insanity soon follows 11:05:37 thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0652.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 11:05:41 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has joined #scheme 11:06:05 Hi all! 11:06:35 it's like that old line from the jargon file which I recently stumbled across a new meaning for: 11:06:39 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 11:06:41 hacker: n. [originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe]. 11:07:16 -!- thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0652.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:07:22 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 11:07:50 writing software with {php,python,ruby,...} is much like hacking in the old sense. I mean, you'll get there eventually, but what sane person would make a chair with an axe when there are saws and lathes and drills and screws and glue and planes and ... 11:08:14 besides, axes just aren't that comfortable to sit on 11:13:37 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has quit [Quit: Ave Atque Vale] 11:13:45 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:14:42 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has joined #scheme 11:22:54 gremset [ubuntu@117.192.100.50] has joined #scheme 11:27:38 -!- milli [~milli@rasler.acmeps.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:28:49 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:31:45 aspect: what languages do you commonly use? 11:32:47 i still use Python a bit 11:33:37 milli [~milli@rasler.acmeps.com] has joined #scheme 11:34:10 EM03: python and tcl .. and a lot of shell scripting for embedded systems. Not my favourite combination, but it could be worse 11:34:37 aspect: I'd somewhat disagree. It's not the Python and friends are primitive, it's that they are immutable. The key to a Lisp is that it can become the language you want it to be. For example, I'm writing a pattern-matching, destructioning LET right now... 11:34:48 tcl is heavily used by cicco which is an annoyance for me 11:34:59 s/deconstructioning/destructuring/ 11:35:13 Too early. 11:36:52 I'm quite a fan of Tcl. Yes, it lacks lexical scope, but it's homoiconic and mutable in a much purer way than lisp 11:37:35 edw: people have done some horrible, horrible things with Python to emulate DSLs in it 11:38:23 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has quit [Quit: Ave Atque Vale] 11:39:08 edw: Hopefully when you wake up later you'll see the irony in that. 11:39:30 In Python et al. I don't see what the problem with creating a data structure of lists and hashes and then just parsing it like a program. What is with the DSL fetish. If data is code, let it be data. 11:39:35 eli: It may take a bit. 11:39:36 gremset_ [ubuntu@117.192.107.220] has joined #scheme 11:39:53 I agree that the power to create new language constructs is probably the most sxciting thing in scheme .. but that's sort of my point (though I'm too tired to express it clearly at the moment): in Scheme you can say "This algorithm is most clearly xpressed using a destructuring, pattern-matching let", and create such a construct. To do the same in Python you need to first decide which language eatures to abuse to approximate such a thing ... 11:40:02 edw: writing a lisp reader is trivial. 11:40:44 -!- gremset [ubuntu@117.192.100.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:40:51 pjb: I've been thinking that recently. It would be nice to have some of Clojure's syntactic sugar in a Scheme. 11:41:13 For example? 11:41:20 Talking to me? 11:41:31 yes :) 11:41:35 :) 11:41:49 aspect: To clarify that irony -- yes, it is definitely a big advantage to have macros (and as people slowly realize, one of the last remaining advantages of lisps), but with that comes the curse of the reimplementation. 11:42:15 I am just not familiar with Clojure and what's so good about it's syntax 11:42:40 Regular expressions: #"foo[bc]ar". Hashes: #{ :k v :k2 v2 }. Sets: #(1 2 3 4). 11:42:40 And, of course, a deconstructing `let' thing is a good example, as something that was done N times, where N is probably bigger than the number of lispers. 11:43:10 Well, Racket has regular expressions #rx"foo[bc]ar" 11:43:17 eli: But a *pattern matching* destructuring LET? Hmm? Hmm...?! 11:44:22 racket also has #hash('a 'b) 11:44:35 edw: in Racket: (match-let ([(list x y x) '(1 2 1)]) (+ x y)) 11:44:43 uh 11:44:54 sorry it's actually #hash((a . b)) 11:44:59 http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/reader.html?q=hash#%28idx._%28gentag._199._%28lib._scribblings/reference/reference..scrbl%29%29%29 11:45:00 I'd use rudybot, but it seems to have dropped off the egde of the earth. 11:45:06 Together with offby1. 11:45:19 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has joined #scheme 11:46:07 OK, OK, eli. I got my geiser Racket REPL going again. Once it sunk in thatheard that conses are immutable in Racket, I got over our PROC/FN terminological differences. 11:46:07 So the only thing raket doesnt have is set syntx 11:47:01 edw: and in the racket case, the pattern language is extensible -- something that is rarely considered or done, which leads to obvious problems: 11:47:29 #hash((a . b))? That's a bit odd. I guess #hash(EXPR ...) is sugar for something like (alist->hash EXPR ...). 11:47:37 (a) you hack something quick up; (b) that thing becomes popular; (c) people complain about more features; (d) the whole thing is redesiged and reimplemented; (e) rinse, repeat. 11:47:55 amoe [~amoe@cpc1-brig13-0-0-cust658.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 11:48:01 eli: The history of Scheme, in a nutshell. Minus (b), of course. 11:48:03 edw: actually no 11:48:08 But more often: (b') that thing never becomes popular, and a bunch of work has gone inside the bit garbage. 11:48:12 it's synatx for make-immutable--hash 11:48:13 irginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 11:48:14 15:48 < edw> eli: The history of Scheme, in a nutshell. Min 11:48:16 werm 11:48:23 sorry for that paste 11:48:52 ohwow: Implementing a reader syntax for sets (or whatever) would be trivial. 11:48:58 ohwow: MAKE-IMMUTABLE-HASH looks like it works exactly like my (notional) ALIST->HASH procedure. 11:49:15 In fact, if you decide to use []s or {}s, you can get it done without even a reader syntax. 11:49:53 I didn't know you could use { } in Racket 11:50:21 ohwow: By default, all parens are the same. 11:50:32 Can somebody please explain to me why do you need Boxes in Racket? 11:50:40 Why can't you just use normal variables? 11:50:43 Conses are immutable? 11:50:55 Cells are immutable? 11:51:06 ohwow: For the same reason you need pointers in C. 11:51:37 ohwow: And on the opposite side -- for the same reason you need refs in ML. 11:51:37 edw: but in conses you can store multiple values, while in boxes only one/ 11:51:55 ohwow: You mean in *Racket* or in *Scheme*? 11:52:17 in Scheme and in Racket 11:53:17 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:54:37 eli: sorry I didn't get this pointers analogy, can you please elaborate, maybe give an example? 11:54:55 Pardon me, I am not a professional Scheme programmer, unfortunately 11:56:21 ohwow: The pointers analogy is straightforward -- the are cases in C when you want to pass some &foo -- you want to somehow make it possible to pass around a reference to `foo' as a value so it can be mutated in other scopes. 11:56:30 A cell is useful if you need some indirection. You can pass a procedure a cell, and the called procedure can modify its value. 11:56:35 Using a box makes it possible to pass around the box value. 11:56:51 (In the same way that you'd pass around the reference in C.) 11:57:40 slom [~sloma@port-87-234-239-162.static.qsc.de] has joined #scheme 11:57:40 And the ML analogy is to make mutation more explicit -- things tend to be somewhat easier if you write code without `set!', and only occasionally have an explict box where needed. 11:57:51 I have occasionally needed to use cells when passing around lists, because you may need to modify the head of the list. 11:57:58 hmm I'm too tired for irony :) 11:58:54 (And those times, I was doing mutation when I should have built up a list in a loop and reversed it at the end of something similar, but for whatever reason that didn't seem practical or "performant.") 11:59:05 eli: ah 11:59:06 thanks 11:59:10 I got it now 11:59:47 -!- gremset_ [ubuntu@117.192.107.220] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:19 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:01:37 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 12:02:09 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-232-241-255.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:14:53 -!- slom [~sloma@port-87-234-239-162.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:16:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 12:27:55 thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0652.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 12:28:18 -!- thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0652.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 12:28:40 thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0652.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 12:29:35 -!- bokr [~eduska@109.110.36.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:35:42 -!- thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0652.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:36:59 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:42:19 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 12:47:17 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 12:53:55 I am trying this standing workplace thing 12:54:00 not so easy, i shall say 12:54:57 http://gregschlom.com/post/4555981908/standing-desk 12:57:16 I can't think standing. 12:57:41 thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0652.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 12:59:03 -!- thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0652.bb.online.no] has left #scheme 13:03:14 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 13:09:54 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-154.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:11:29 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:16:50 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:18:14 That's some pretty good MS Paint skills 13:19:23 xwl [~user@123.108.223.27] has joined #scheme 13:23:50 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-154.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:27:42 soveran [~soveran@200-42-23-2.dup.prima.net.ar] has joined #scheme 13:29:32 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 13:30:05 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 13:30:53 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:32:29 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 13:33:53 Reading "The Little Schemer" I came upon this function http://pastebin.com/RkdJ81gd 13:34:08 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:34:24 But to me it looks like it doesn't do what it's supposed to and running it confirms my suspicion. 13:34:34 Would anyone please shed a light? 13:36:36 Bahman: (first (first '(a (b (c d))))) -> (first 'a) -> error 13:37:54 ijp: That's what I thought too but why the author would put such a function in the book? 13:38:01 I mean I don't get his point. 13:38:39 read on a little bit, I suspect it'll say something like "why doesn't this work" 13:39:05 In the book he asked "Can you define shift?" and the he answered "It's trivial, it's not even recursive" and then the definition. 13:39:53 ijp: Alright...will do. 13:40:03 Bahman: It 13:40:23 It's been ages since I read the little Schemer, but I think this happens on multiple occasions 13:40:36 It was a stylistic choice 13:45:41 ijp: You're right. That's what happens at least to 'shift'. Thanks. 13:51:57 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has quit [Quit: Ave Atque Vale] 13:57:53 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #scheme 14:10:10 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has joined #scheme 14:12:52 ymasory_ [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:17:21 aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:19:46 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-133-103.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:23:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-133-103.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:23:45 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-133-103.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:23:46 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-140.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:24:23 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 14:25:04 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:25 poucet [~chris@li23-146.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 14:35:25 -!- ymasory_ [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:41:01 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 14:41:52 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:44:01 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:45:28 carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:08:19 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 15:10:16 -!- atomx_ [59eed542@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.238.213.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:12:14 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:17 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:13:22 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-154.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:15:05 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:17:35 -!- xwl [~user@123.108.223.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:18:16 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-154.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:22:12 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:22:43 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 15:24:17 EM03, the web-server language transforms the program to provide serializable continuations 15:26:02 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-154.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:28:23 elly, I encourage not hyphening 15:28:39 like cky, i have a hyphenated name, and it's really annoying 15:35:40 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-171.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:38:00 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-133-103.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:38:01 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 15:47:58 oh, we're not that annoyed by your name. 15:48:09 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:48:16 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:51:48 -!- dsp_ [~tt@acidlab.technoanimal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:53:53 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:55:08 dsp_ [~tt@acidlab.technoanimal.net] has joined #scheme 15:55:45 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:56:24 hoi 15:56:33 o hai 15:57:19 I am so glad I don't have to care about low-level macro systems. 15:57:52 heh 16:03:08 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:03:27 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 16:03:56 rudybot [~luser@ec2-204-236-167-175.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 16:05:43 thomanil [~Adium@ti0165a340-dhcp0652.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 16:15:40 -!- soveran [~soveran@200-42-23-2.dup.prima.net.ar] 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17:52:52 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 18:01:42 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:02:11 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C43D8A.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:04:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:37 stis [~stis@host-90-235-42-55.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 18:24:11 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:26:25 monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:28:25 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-140.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:30:24 masm [~masm@bl15-234-183.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 18:34:20 rramsden [~rramsden@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 18:35:12 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-140.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 18:50:47 -!- Dark-Star [~michael@HSI-KBW-078-043-206-184.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 18:55:51 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 18:56:50 kilimanja [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 19:02:23 -!- kilimanja [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:02:50 tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has joined #scheme 19:08:08 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:14:03 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 19:30:59 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 19:33:53 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-248.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 19:35:50 Does anyone know a procedure that is PRIMITIVE-PROCEDURE? in MIT-Scheme? 19:36:05 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 19:41:36 perhaps CAR ? 19:41:49 Fare: oh, hi, ITA person :) 19:43:17 rudybot: eval CAR 19:43:18 eli: your sandbox is ready 19:43:18 eli: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: CAR in module: 'program 19:44:54 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:15 elly, no, Google. 19:47:18 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 19:48:26 Fare: you too? 19:49:26 Is there a scheme impl/tool that will display a cons tree for educational look? A friend is asking. 19:49:34 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 19:50:08 Fare: I work in 5CC :) 19:52:20 ecraven, (make-primitive-procedure 'car 1) will give you one. 19:58:34 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 19:59:14 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 20:02:12 ecraven, out of curiosity, why do you ask? 20:06:52 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 20:07:21 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 20:07:28 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 20:07:51 bot attack 20:16:55 samth: is that the only difference 20:18:36 Riastradh: Trying to fix and enlarge swank.scm :) 20:18:43 auto-completion does help a lot! 20:19:08 ecraven: Wait, so for which Scheme(s)? 20:19:13 edw: MIT-Scheme 20:20:02 ecraven: I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but given the existence of Edwin and its decent debugger, why are you putting this effort in? 20:20:40 Hmm... Yikes. swank.scm uses COMPILER:DISASSEMBLE, which is broken on amd64. 20:21:14 edw: Mostly due to Emacs supporting proper unicode and colours ;) 20:21:51 Riastradh: most of it seems to work, just a few bitrotten places 20:21:52 ecraven: real hackers are color blind 20:22:27 GNU Emacs is pretty far ahead of Edwin. 20:22:28 They see everything in green and black. 20:22:38 ecraven: Pretty colours! You've convinced me. 20:23:30 If Edwin supported colours and most of unicode, I'd use it for most things I do :) 20:23:42 Riastradh: Right. I'd forgotten about all the ways that Edwin is not Emacs 23... 20:27:14 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:30:36 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@frank.ldc.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:31:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-187.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 20:37:46 I'm not sure SLIME is the right way to go. I haven't looked into Geiser. But this takes a lot of tricky engineering to do well... 20:38:32 Geiser seems at least 83% less crufty than SLIME. 20:39:51 It's OK to be crufty if the cruft serves a useful purpose in the engineering of the system. 20:40:27 Sometimes it's not clear how to serve that purpose noncruftily, and sometimes it's better to serve that purpose cruftily than not to serve it at all. 20:40:47 A re-phrasing of the thesis of Joel Spoksky's "re-writing Mozilla was the dumbest effing project ever conceived" essay. 20:41:12 Riastradh: How does MIT-Scheme know that the vector that (LOCAL-DECODED-TIME) returns is to be printed as #[decoded-time ..], and how does PP know what its component parts are? 20:41:13 Er, Spolsky. 20:42:11 ecraven, see runtime/pp.scm. 20:42:23 See also runtime/datime.scm. 20:44:13 No, never mind, there's nothing in datime.scm particularly relevant to that question. I suppose you want to look at NAMED-STRUCTURE/DESCRIPTION in runtime/record.smc. 20:44:13 runtime/record.scm 20:46:14 Isn't this a bit of a hack, reusing vectors like this? 20:48:43 edw: I thought that you said ``Geiser seems at least 83% less _crafty_ than SLIME'', which is a sentiment I'd have to agree with. However, I do use Geiser; it is useful and I hope it'll get craftier over time. :-) 20:48:58 Yeah. 20:49:15 It'd be better to implement non-generative record types and to go through all the instances of (define-structure (foo (type vector) (tag foo-tag)) ...) and update them to do that. Usually the only reason to use vectors and lists is to make them fasdumpable. 20:51:15 fds: I like Geiser, but I don't want to get pushed into using Racket. 20:51:31 edw: I use it with Guile. 20:52:18 And you'd also have to go through all of LIAR, which was written before records existed in Scheme. 20:53:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-187.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:18 fds: Does Guile actually support SRFI-1 yet? 20:54:24 for a decade at least 20:54:50 edw: Erm, it supports all of SRFI-1 I've ever needed. 20:55:43 Riastradh: Why non-generative? 20:56:15 fds: I remember that some basic proc had its arguments flipped vs SRFI-1. 20:56:26 To make them fasdumpable, ecraven. 20:58:12 Ah, thanks! Is there a way to have Edwin automatically show the information of SHOW-PARAMETER-LIST while typing? 20:59:15 fds: What led you to choose Guile, if you wouldn't mind answering? 20:59:50 Not built-in. 21:00:00 Typing M-A has never bothered me enough to think about that. 21:05:15 Riastradh: Thanks for the help. Good night 21:06:09 edw: Various reasons. I've played about with other implementations too; I have Chicken, MIT Scheme, Scheme48 and Racket installed on this laptop. But, a big part of it was Andy Wingo; I first saw a video of him talking about Guile at the GNU Hackers' Meeting and then reading his blog. (The rest of the Guile team are cool too, I enjoy the IRC channel and mailing lists and stuff.) 21:06:51 fds: Thanks. I'll check out that video and perhaps the IRC channel. 21:07:10 bluewres [~Unknown@c-76-102-87-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:10:34 -!- soveran [~soveran@200-42-23-2.dup.prima.net.ar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:51 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:18:03 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-42-55.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:39 -!- bluewres [~Unknown@c-76-102-87-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:26:16 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 21:40:51 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravic@smtp.touchcut.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:44:18 Geef [~Geef@249.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:46:05 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:46:20 -!- f8l [~f8l@81.219.203.149] has quit [Quit: dtaching] 21:46:51 f8l [~f8l@81.219.203.149] has joined #scheme 21:48:25 kuribas [~user@d54C43D8A.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 21:51:34 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:52:13 -!- aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 21:54:46 chemuduguntar [~ravic@smtp.touchcut.com] has joined #scheme 21:56:22 Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.211.224] has joined #scheme 21:59:33 ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:01:41 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 22:06:31 vilfredo [~wilfred@cpc11-woki6-2-0-cust239.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 22:07:10 -!- open [~thesk@unaffiliated/open] has left #scheme 22:31:50 -!- gremset [ubuntu@117.192.101.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:34:35 -!- carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 22:35:01 Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 22:37:04 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 22:37:19 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:38:18 Should I assume that set! doesn't work like Common Lisp's setf? 22:38:24 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.211.224] has quit [Quit: Ave Atque Vale] 22:44:51 Sgeo: yes. 22:44:58 I'd say it's more like setq. 22:45:09 gremset [ubuntu@117.192.101.217] has joined #scheme 22:45:56 you could look at srfi 17 22:46:56 ooh, ty 22:48:52 Yay, Chicken supports it 22:53:01 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:38 ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has joined #scheme 22:53:50 Is generalized set! preferred to using the underlying function, the way it's preferred in CL? 22:57:26 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #scheme 22:58:00 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C43D8A.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:01:17 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:05:03 mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:05:21 -!- f8l [~f8l@81.219.203.149] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 23:05:39 Sgeo: what do you prefer? 23:06:18 I think I'd personally prefer generalized-set!, but then again I have just recently been learning about Common Lisp 23:07:02 -!- mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:07:44 mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:14:19 Then it's the prefered way to do it. 23:14:34 And if there's a de-facto standard SRFI for it, I'd say: go for it! 23:23:18 -!- mippymoe89 [~mippymoe8@c-24-147-92-217.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:28:22 -!- edw [~user@70-89-62-209-philadelphia-panjde.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:31:14 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 23:32:01 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-140.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:32:31 -!- Checkie [2462@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:37:36 sheikra [~androirc@182.144.233.129] has joined #scheme 23:39:27 hi 23:39:39 hi 23:40:05 does typed racket support overloading? 23:44:31 i have no idea. you might get more help in #racket though 23:46:45 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-142.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:52:00 thx 23:57:27 The only place I've seen any substantial use of generalized SET! in the Scheme world is in T, and that long predated SRFI 17. 23:57:30 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:57:47 -!- rramsden [~rramsden@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]