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06:22:16 -!- Checkie [11587@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:26:19 -!- evhan [~evhan@li321-76.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:29:41 X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has joined #scheme 06:34:17 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:38:41 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:46:16 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 06:52:58 -!- saiko-chriskun [~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 07:08:19 -!- rmrfchik [~rmrfchik@linuxhacker.ru] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:12:29 -!- monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hello] 07:14:31 atomx [59eed542@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.238.213.66] has joined #scheme 07:15:45 is there a tool to see visually the environment of a call ? 07:15:58 i used mit-scheme, but it's not terrible 07:22:35 ravi_ [~ravi@118-93-186-22.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 07:30:05 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-153-196.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:30:15 atomx: perhaps DrRacket does something nice? 07:32:08 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:34:42 debugged in DrRacket can show local binding 07:34:43 s 07:40:47 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 08:22:32 ohwow: is there a tutorial (preferably video) for me to learn using it ? 08:23:02 ohwow: I tried once using DrRacket, but I did not manage debugging with it 08:24:02 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has joined #scheme 08:25:05 Hi all! 08:26:37 moin 08:26:50 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:27:02 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 08:28:25 Bahman1 [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has joined #scheme 08:28:25 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:32:20 -!- Bahman1 [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:53 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has joined #scheme 08:46:39 atomx: http://docs.racket-lang.org/drracket/debugger.html?q=debugging 08:46:45 not really a vide, but still 08:50:48 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 09:05:15 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:05:41 X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has joined #scheme 09:19:54 -!- DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-37-52.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:20:40 ohwow: thanks. 09:25:00 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-nfwerubsgnrvjzkw] has left #scheme 09:26:28 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 09:29:37 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29:51 X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f08:b3d::2] has joined #scheme 09:30:21 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-qmmczuasfnfvktdo] has joined #scheme 09:32:45 DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-39-13.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 09:38:51 gremset [ubuntu@117.192.111.201] has joined #scheme 09:43:56 -!- lusory [~bart@bb121-6-160-243.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:45:28 lusory [~bart@bb121-6-160-243.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme 09:47:32 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:07:56 http://pastebin.ca/2056122 10:08:14 I tried drracket, and gotthis error.... why ? 10:08:53 because you need to quote '() 10:09:16 masm [~masm@bl15-234-183.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:09:25 hm... 10:09:40 strange. thanks 10:09:46 i am used with lisp 10:18:19 http://pastebin.ca/2056124 10:18:23 saccade [~saccade@74-95-7-186-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 10:18:23 please help again 10:18:46 what shoudl I do to be able to use cons-stream in drracket ? 10:18:54 should 10:28:10 atomx: you probably want stream-cons. See docs.racket-lang.org 10:30:27 atomx: at the beggining of your file type (use srfi/40) 10:31:00 oh, give a man a fish ;) 10:32:56 Well I remember when I was doing SICP it was better to focus on specific exercises rather than on implementation-specific stuff 10:32:57 http://pastebin.ca/2056131 10:33:09 but yeah, http://docks.racket-lang.org is a handy place 10:33:10 I tried, but ... see the output 10:33:36 oh my bad, it's not (use srfi/40), but (require srfi/40) 10:34:00 > (require srfi/40) . . reference to undefined identifier: require 10:34:23 hm 10:34:55 atomx: what is you language setting (#lang blah) 10:35:18 bremner_: I set left bottom R5RS 10:35:19 atomx: select language=>determine language from source 10:35:26 and put #lang racket in your source file 10:35:39 but then he won't have mutable conses 10:35:45 oh 10:36:03 wait what do you mean? 10:36:06 mutable pairs? 10:36:13 right 10:36:33 I remember some SICP doer found that problematic 10:36:53 but r5rs doesnt have require... 10:37:10 it's a problem. 10:38:03 Bienvenue dans DrRacket, version 5.1 [3m]. Langage: Déterminer le langage à partir du code source; memory limit: 128 MB. . Module Language: there can only be one expression in the definitions window in: (square (quote (1 2 3 4 5))) Interactions disabled. 10:38:22 but it might alias it to #%require 10:38:23 i did something, as you see, and it does not work 10:38:37 least helpful problem report ever ;) 10:38:52 Module Language: there can only be one expression in the definitions window in: (square (quote (1 2 3 4 5))) Interactions disabled. 10:39:37 atomx: try (#%require srfi/40) 10:39:53 -!- dfeuer_ [~dfeuer@pool-71-178-51-12.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:44:27 http://docs.racket-lang.org/r5rs/r5rs-mod.html?q=cons-stream#(part._.Non-.R5.R.S_.Bindings_from_r5rs) 10:46:31 bremner_: thanks, but I still do not manage to master that editor... 10:46:49 -!- saccade [~saccade@74-95-7-186-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:48:14 what editor? 10:48:32 DrRacket? 10:53:49 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:57:41 dfeuer_ [~dfeuer@pool-71-178-51-12.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 10:58:17 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:58:36 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 11:08:08 bremner_: yes. sorry, I did not look at the channel 11:08:18 Bienvenue dans DrRacket, version 5.1 [3m]. 11:08:25 Langage: R5RS; memory limit: 128 MB. 11:14:15 atomx: so what is the difficulty exactly? Can you paste the contents of your top window to http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme ? 11:35:39 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #scheme 11:42:27 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 11:42:32 bremner_: ok 11:44:34 bremner_: http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme does not work . i will be using pastebin.ca 11:45:26 http://pastebin.ca/2056157 11:46:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-216-248.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:47:59 atomx: are you sure you don't have two #lang lines at the top? 11:50:19 atomx: because your code compiles fine for me if I delete the extra #lang racket 11:50:47 hm 11:51:35 bremner_: oh, ya 11:51:47 bremner_: the problem was to make cons-stream work 11:51:59 this is my problem in fact 11:53:50 (cons-stream 'a 'b) 11:54:01 . . reference to undefined identifier: cons-stream > 11:54:51 well, did you look at the docs for stream-cons and see if it is what you want? 11:57:25 yes, it 'required something 11:57:42 (require racket/stream) 11:57:47 that was written there 11:57:57 reference to undefined identifier: require > 11:58:01 mario-go` [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 11:58:03 -!- mario-go` [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58:08 and it does not recognize 'require 11:58:26 < bremner_> [07:50:57] atomx: try (#%require srfi/40) 11:59:35 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:59:47 bremner_: ok, see the error from there: 12:00:03 reference to undefined identifier: cons-stream > 12:00:30 bremner_: but it's true , (#%require call worked :) 12:00:38 I'm sorry, but I'm getting a bit frustrated here. How many times did I mention stream-cons ? 12:00:45 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 12:01:05 oh 12:01:10 sorry 12:01:18 ok 12:01:20 i am used with mit-scheme :( 12:01:30 yeah, it's the curse of scheme 12:02:04 I'm not an expert, but stream-cons at least seems to be standardized in srfi's 12:02:13 bremner_: thanks a lot 12:02:19 it worked :) 12:02:34 # > 12:02:34 \o/ hurray! 12:02:42 bremner_: great :) 12:02:52 THANK YOU 12:08:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-4.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 12:09:02 (define integers (stream-cons 1 integers)) (stream-car (stream-cdr integers)) 12:09:33 i am debugging this function going step by step , but I do not see any diagram of the environment 12:09:50 my purpose is to see the environment... 12:09:54 is that possible? 12:09:55 ... 12:11:03 tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has joined #scheme 12:27:48 cky: did you ever send me that failing buildlog? I'm thinking about another debian upload of racket 12:31:15 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:32:27 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 12:42:32 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 12:57:15 rdd [~user@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 13:05:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-4.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:23 How can I see the frames in drscheme ? 13:10:33 the frames of the environment I mean 13:10:47 atomx: use the debugger? 13:11:03 bremner_: I am using it 13:11:31 where are displayed the frames ? 13:13:33 umm. under the label called "stack"? 13:16:47 xwl [~user@123.108.223.27] has joined #scheme 13:20:36 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has quit [Quit: Ave Atque Vale] 13:21:21 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:22:30 hm 13:30:52 bremner_: I'll send you something now. 13:30:53 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:31:11 -!- xwl [~user@123.108.223.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:27 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 13:32:00 cky: thanks 13:32:35 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 13:34:47 It's sent now. I apologise it's not bzipped or anything; I only realised during sending just how large the file is. 13:36:28 xwl [~user@123.108.223.27] has joined #scheme 13:38:13 cky: got it. 13:38:19 Cool. 13:38:46 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable182.177-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 13:38:47 any options to dpkg-buildpackage (-B ?) 13:39:04 The usual options I use are: dpkg-buildpackage -b -rfakeroot -uc -us 13:39:11 ok 13:39:33 probably irrelevent, but one never knows 13:39:42 Indeed. At least it makes it more reproducible (I hope). 13:40:07 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:40:45 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:41:03 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 13:42:12 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:42:31 gcartier_ [~gcartier@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 13:44:11 indeed I see what I screwed up, but will have to wait until I get home to fix. 13:44:23 Cool. :-) Thanks for looking into it! 13:44:33 cky: welcome, thanks for the log. 13:44:37 :-) 13:44:44 -!- gcartier_ [~gcartier@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has left #scheme 14:00:00 how can I activate the function trace-call ? 14:00:22 http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/debugging.html?q=stream-cons#%28mod-path._racket/trace%29 14:00:44 in this document it's written to evaluate (require racket/trace) first 14:01:49 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:02:29 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 14:03:33 atomx: Okay, what's wrong with that? 14:03:52 Oh noes! rudybot isn't here? 14:04:52 rudy is awol. 14:05:04 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:05:29 atomx: try to generalize from the way you required srfi/40 14:08:10 hm 14:08:15 i tried 14:08:32 (trace-call 'id (stream-car integers)) 14:08:41 gives me so: procedure application: expected procedure, given: 1 (no arguments) > 14:08:51 because I do not know the signature 14:08:54 of trace-call in scheme 14:09:47 (trace (stream-car integers)) gives trace: not an identifier in: (stream-car integers) 14:09:52 strange 14:10:09 trace requires a symbol, not a lambda function 14:10:49 yes, trace redefines the procedure. 14:11:15 I don't know how well that works for procedures in other modules. 14:12:10 Anyone know if Termite still works in 4.6.1? 14:13:44 4.6.1 of what? gambit i assume? 14:13:48 Ja. 14:14:11 I'm getting some interesting errors. 14:16:26 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 14:17:30 I've been thinking: If termite had the ability to start (and stop, I suppose) other termine nodes--if nodes were first-class-ish objects--then it would be possible to start thinking about building a framework that could be used as the basis for automagical scaling. 14:17:47 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has joined #scheme 14:17:51 aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:21:06 bremner_: for me it does not work at all 14:22:01 bremner_: in fact, my purpose is to visualize the environment of a recursive stream 14:22:02 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:22:07 like this one 14:22:15 (define integers (stream-cons 1 integers)) 14:22:19 something very simple 14:22:57 atomx, what do you mean by environment? 14:23:46 saiko-chriskun [~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has joined #scheme 14:24:26 samth: the frames that keep variables 14:24:30 , environment 14:24:41 there is no bot here 14:25:05 incubot, (+ 1 2) 14:25:05 Error: unbound variable: incubot 14:25:13 incubot eval (+ 1 2) 14:25:45 incubot: hello 14:25:49 did you say hello? 14:26:14 incubot: help 14:26:17 As much as it pains me, a more C-like language would probably help the unwashed masses. :( 14:26:22 incubot: (+ 1 1) 14:26:23 2 14:26:35 incubot: google environment evaluation scheme 14:26:38 "new-if" above is an example of one that you can't write directly as a procedure, because of applicative-order evaluation, as you said 14:26:57 incubot: (kill-emacs) 14:26:57 Error: unbound variable: kill-emacs 14:28:37 i miss rudybot -- where did it go? 14:29:33 *edw* cues "Where Did You Go To (My Lovely)" 14:29:51 incubot: (repository-path) 14:29:51 /usr/local/lib/chicken/3 14:29:58 Hmmm. Chicken 3! 14:30:05 [s]he's with grandma and granddad 14:30:27 they need a scheme bot too 14:30:33 incubot: you're old 14:30:42 incubot: what the haps? 14:30:45 per ... haps 14:30:59 incubot: botsnack 14:31:02 :) 14:31:02 botsnack? 14:31:05 :( 14:33:45 evhan [~evhan@li321-76.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 14:33:56 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@58.230.108.42] has joined #scheme 14:35:21 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 14:42:41 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:41 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-141-240.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:45:20 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:46:21 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 14:48:46 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 14:50:12 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has quit [Quit: Ave Atque Vale] 14:50:34 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:50:42 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:54:24 -!- xwl [~user@123.108.223.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:36 Checkie [464@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 15:07:04 ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has joined #scheme 15:15:00 rins [~user@173-162-214-174-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:16:04 pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:35:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-141-240.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:39:17 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-124-135.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:40:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-124-135.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:43:33 atomx` [~user@86.35.150.23] has joined #scheme 15:44:26 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-46.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:48:11 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:50:02 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 15:50:42 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-46.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:50:53 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51:16 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbec32f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:27 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4d06670c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 15:53:55 monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:53:55 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-142-14.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:58:35 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:05:05 -!- rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:03 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 16:11:48 rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #scheme 16:14:40 rramsden [~rramsden@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 16:15:56 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 16:21:00 pyrony [~epic@68-26-31-103.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #scheme 16:27:51 carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:30:22 whats available for scheme running on hardware? 16:31:30 With nothing in between? 16:32:06 I don't know any projects. Maybe someone's glued a scheme to OSKit to make a lispm. There's certainly been a lot of talk about that 16:35:36 Hmm, what would you run Scheme on if not hardware? 16:35:42 Even `the cloud' involves hardware, so... 16:37:07 Wetware? :) 16:37:29 (pen and paper) 16:42:46 XTL: I have vague memories of racket having an oskit backend. I know nothing about it though. 16:42:50 bremner_: Yes. 16:42:56 Matthew Flatt did that many years ago. 16:44:01 teurastaja: Apart from the above-mentioned, some chap decided to write something called DreamOS. 16:44:29 Which is based on an implementation of Scheme, "Dream", coded in assembly. 16:44:58 no i mean scheme on top of hardware. not on top of assembly 16:45:21 what is the difference? you want scheme FPGA's or something? 16:45:40 that's more "scheme hardware" 16:45:42 without an os 16:45:58 assembly does not imply an OS 16:46:09 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:46:34 i discovered an implementation made by someone who made his masters thesis on that in my neighbourhood 16:46:52 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:31 ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has joined #scheme 16:47:36 http://www.ift.ulaval.ca/~dadub100/ 16:47:47 teurastaja: DreamOS is a bare-metal OS (though I guess in theory you can run it under virtualisation too). 16:47:47 teurastaja: like this? https://www.cs.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/techreports/TRNNN.cgi?trnum=TR413 16:47:56 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 16:49:10 http://www.ift.ulaval.ca/~dadub100/files/HOSC.pdf 16:49:43 yes like that 16:50:20 besides a masters thesis has this kind of project evolved into somthing yet? 16:51:27 or is it pure theory? 16:54:27 I wonder if there is anything you could do to make a softcore work well for scheme 16:54:33 Why don't you ask the author? 16:54:49 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:56:51 i could call him 16:56:54 loal call 16:56:57 *local 16:57:13 hes a teacher wouldnt i disturb him? 16:57:24 email? 16:57:53 Telex, telefax, semaphore, telegraph? 16:58:53 ill try calling but i cant just say hi im local and id like to use your project for my engineering class do you plan to make that available and keep it maintained? 17:00:15 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has joined #scheme 17:01:01 anyways im not even near using his project yet 17:01:51 ecraven++ 17:01:53 theres nothing out there open source or w/e? 17:02:04 teurastaja: Just write your own. ;-) 17:02:12 That's the Scheme way, ain't it? ;-) 17:02:54 well... yeah but were still this far from having a scheme microcontroller? 17:03:16 is there any scheme->vhdl thingy? for creating scheme fpgas? 17:03:21 i wonder how efficient that would be 17:03:26 there is, actually 17:03:36 look up marc feeley's research papers 17:04:05 he's done scheme on both microcontrollers and JIT compilation to silicon 17:04:47 hes worked with danny dube 17:04:51 Why don't you just email him, teurastaja? 17:05:07 i hesitated 17:06:25 Generally, people like to receive email about their research. 17:06:49 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 17:08:58 -!- pyrony [~epic@68-26-31-103.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:09:12 never done such a thing but i guess. just thought he could be buried in work 17:10:11 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:10:44 -!- rramsden [~rramsden@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:11:28 if you email him, he can respond if he has the time, and ignore it if he doesn't 17:19:04 what the hell is the definition of variant-case? 17:19:25 Magic. 17:20:40 ...until i get the definition then its not magic anymore, there is no more mystery 17:20:46 If you made foo with (frob-a zot), then (variant-case foo ((frob zot) (+ (sqrt zot) (log zot))) ...) evaluates to (+ (sqrt zot) (log zot)). If you made foo with (frob-b quux), then (variant-case foo ... ((frob-b quux) (display "Hello, ") (display quux) (display "!")) ...) displays `Hello, !'. 17:20:55 That's a guess, anyway. 17:21:08 I have no idea what VARIANT-CASE you're talking about; you need to specify context. 17:21:31 http://www.cs.indiana.edu/pub/techreports/TR413.pdf 17:22:26 its old r4rs 17:22:33 I got the parentheses in the wrong place. 17:22:54 (variant-case foo (frob-a (zot) ...) ...), (variant-case foo ... (frob-b (quux) ...) ...), &c. 17:23:59 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 17:24:30 r4rs seems to not mention VARIANT-CASE http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r4rs_toc.html 17:24:52 It's not in the R4RS; it's a macro that is popular at Indiana University. 17:25:15 here: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/pub/eopl/mitmacros.scm 17:25:49 thanks the the light you shed on me 17:26:54 (FYI: That code won't run in any modern Scheme system...) 17:27:13 rramsden [~rramsden@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 17:27:21 pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has joined #scheme 17:29:03 yay now i have to learn how those fancy macros work 17:33:42 oh i didnt know marc feeley was a quebecer too 17:34:13 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:35:43 how big is the quebec scheme scene? 17:37:18 heh, I guess they have some affinity for underdog languages 17:37:22 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 17:41:51 kenjin2202 [~kenjin@58.230.108.42] has joined #scheme 17:41:54 -!- githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:44:27 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:44:46 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 17:57:57 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-247.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:59:59 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:00:31 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:01:28 kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-7-84.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 18:02:10 How should I organize my program so as to make function definitions in the scope of syntax definitions? e.g. https://gist.github.com/965002 18:02:15 Also, is lisp paste not working? 18:03:04 (define-for-syntax (foo x) ...) 18:03:28 or put (define (foo)) in a module and do (require (for-syntax "that-module.rkt")) 18:04:27 jonrafkind: Both of those approaches are non-r5rs, correct? 18:04:29 -!- nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-10-176.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:04:50 right 18:04:51 danking, you're already using non-R5RS stuff when you write (define-syntax (bar stx) ...). 18:05:04 You probably meant to put (syntax-case stx () ...) around ((_ some-value) ...), by the way. 18:08:34 teurastaja: the scheme conference was in montreal last year 18:09:11 the "jazz scheme" folk are quebecers as well 18:09:35 Riastradh: Ah yes, I did intend that. So, `define-syntax' is r5rs, but `syntax-case' is not? I'm basing my information off of docs.racket-lang.org. 18:09:54 Yes, danking. 18:10:18 That's a pain. 18:10:20 Riastradh: How do I best package anything for MIT-Scheme? As LOAD-OPTION, so as to not pollute the user's namespace? As a load.scm that does this by hand? 18:10:41 If you want to know what's in the R5RS, read the R5RS! 18:11:46 ecraven, yeah, with compile.scm and load.scm, and some provisional garbage to set up environments (or with cref). I wouldn't bother with the LOAD-OPTION nonsense. 18:14:33 montreal is in decrepitude the conference shouldve been in quebec city 18:15:07 the conference *should* have been in europe! 18:15:33 quebec city is americas europe 18:15:43 it is america to europeans 18:15:53 w/e 18:15:58 :) 18:16:40 its french and has a strong difference from the english part of canada 18:16:48 i'm just kidding, eh. 18:17:01 eh? 18:17:08 a scheme conference is easier to justify if it's not transatlantic 18:17:38 and the "schemers are in north america" is one of those self-fulfilling things :) 18:18:02 Riastradh: There's no easy way around the macro-that-expands-into-macro-cannot-compile thing, right? I could pre-expand everything. 18:18:26 Riastradh: what is cref? 18:18:36 no. what im saying is why take an ugly city like montreal then quebec citys a 2 hour drive 18:20:11 Riastradh: also, could you point me at a simple load/compile.scm that shows how to work with different environments (i.e. export only the few functions I really want to the user) 18:20:58 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 18:22:15 ecraven, cref is the system that the .pkg files are for. 18:25:58 Riastradh: Is there any documentation save the sources? 18:26:39 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:27:14 teurastaja: hah, go civic pride. Actually, I agree that QC is more fun for north american tourists, at least for a short visit. 18:28:17 *bremner_* <- ex-montrealer 18:29:50 ecraven, at the end of compiler/documentation/porting.guide there's a brief description. 18:30:19 djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 18:31:02 Riastradh: Which of the two approaches would you suggest I use? 18:31:46 Whichever one is less bletcherous to you. Don't spend a lot of effort relying on either one... 18:32:04 -!- edw [~user@70-89-62-209-philadelphia-panjde.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:32:28 montreal lacks beauty its ugly and an urban disaster 18:32:45 hehe, "The package system ... will probably replaced once a better module system is developed." 18:33:53 -!- ravi_ [~ravi@118-93-186-22.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:34:31 ravi_ [~ravi@118-92-9-160.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 18:36:05 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:36:39 the stadium is a financial wreck, the streets are bumpy and the drivers philosophy is "im going first", theres no real architecture to look at except if you want nightmares, and montrealers would replace their major with ours anytime 18:36:58 UGLY! 18:38:34 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-4.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:42:42 -!- teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable182.177-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: --> Put something intelligent here when I'm more bored <--] 18:46:41 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:47:39 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:49:05 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-180.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:49:27 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 18:49:39 githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has joined #scheme 18:50:18 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-142-14.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:50:20 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 18:50:54 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 18:53:23 -!- djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:55 edw [~user@70-89-62-209-philadelphia-panjde.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 19:12:04 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 19:16:19 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:16:22 Is anyone on Hacker News even a hacker anymore? 19:16:28 *edw* sighs. 19:17:28 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 19:17:37 Maybe it's that I'm in hallucinatory pain right now. 19:18:07 everyone's a hacker now 19:18:12 that's what the memo i got said 19:18:35 Right, not just a nerd, but a hacker. 19:18:56 "I'm a hacker--a _yarn_ hacker." 19:20:28 edw, everyone on HN is a founder instead 19:21:28 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:24:11 is arc going to stay on mzscheme 3xx forever? 19:24:53 Does anyone care about Arc? 19:25:13 in a gossipy, curious sort of a way? 19:26:46 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2533610 19:27:51 Is Arc still Scheme + Perl-like impenetrability + Rails-like obliviousness to everything that came before? 19:28:41 stis [~stis@host-90-232-241-255.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 19:28:47 to be fair, I think they finally got it working with recentish racket ;) 19:30:28 Riastradh: How do I actually load a cref package? 19:30:38 ijp [~user@host86-163-221-44.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 19:30:40 Having worked with Clojure, I gotta say I'd like to see the hash and set shorthand reader syntax, the more concise LET and COND, and some of the other things. But these are very minor things. 19:31:50 "Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're _all_ founders..." 19:32:00 I understand the shorter let (I have a macro for that too), but the Arc-style cond? 19:32:08 edw: more concise as in missing the parens around each pair of name and binding? 19:32:14 I mostly use cond for => and implicit begin. 19:32:20 ecraven, see, e.g., imail/{imail.pkg,compile.scm,load.scm}. 19:32:25 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 19:32:27 ecraven: Yeah. 19:32:39 (let [a 1 b 2] ...) 19:33:14 wingo: They have it working on 4.x, with a hack that I made for them which uses the ffi to implement `set-car!' and `set-cdr!'. 19:33:21 Riastradh: thanks 19:33:25 s/hack/bad hack/ 19:33:28 eli: amusing :) 19:33:41 eli: I believe the word you're looking for a kludge. 19:33:44 some folks love their mutable pairs! 19:33:48 s/a/is/ 19:33:55 eli, why don't they just use mconses? 19:34:02 edw: No, there must be a "bad" there. 19:34:09 ah, why does quack overwrite the perfectly fine ido-find-file with stupid quack-find-file :( 19:34:35 eli: "Kludge" <== "bad" is in there! 19:35:17 edw: My understanding of "kludge" is that the design is bad, but my hack is worse than that, since it violates the racket assumption that pairs are immutable. 19:35:50 DT``: I don't know. It would make even more sense for them to implement their own pairs, since they do the `nil' thing, so they need to marshal lists back and forth when needed. 19:36:05 What does quack do for you at all, ecraven? 19:36:20 eli: Wait, so in R5RS mode, can one SET-CDR!? 19:36:48 edw: Yes, but that's done properly, since r5rs uses mpairs to implement `cons' etc. 19:36:49 eli: And where is Arc-in-arc, anyway? 19:36:49 there are 160 instances of set-c[ad]r! in guile 19:37:27 Riastradh: I am no longer sure.. I mostly like the colouring and the pretty lambdas, I don't use anything else it offers. I'd like auto-completion, but have yet to get MIT-Scheme co-operate with swank correctly 19:37:30 or so. 19:37:31 edw: I don't know about arc-in-arc, but most of it is written on top of a minimal-ish compiler anyway. 19:38:09 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 19:38:19 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:38:35 wingo: As Matthew summarised our expereince (mostly his work), existing occurrences were all easy to fix -- and most of them made sense (in switching to more appropriate solutions). 19:38:56 djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 19:39:26 eli: do you have a link handy for that? 19:41:28 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-247.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:41:39 wingo: You probably know about this one: http://blog.racket-lang.org/2007/11/getting-rid-of-set-car-and-set-cdr.html 19:41:40 Where is the content in Arc? Is there anything interesting about it? 19:41:49 lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 19:41:58 -!- Checkie [464@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:42:01 *eli* shrugs in Riastradh's general direction 19:42:25 eli: thanks for the reminder 19:43:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-4.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:43:16 Riastradh: It has some cute-ish ideas about the importance of making succinct syntax, but IMO it was taken to an extreme of being impossible to read for newbies. 19:43:50 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-247.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:44:05 And they made some mistakes: sticking to a `defmacro' thing, and trying hard to abuse symbol syntax (for things like `foo.bar'). 19:46:07 Out of spite, I wrote a framework that met "the Arc Challenge" and my code (in Scheme, of course) was no bigger than the Arc code. How can you get more Lisp than Lisp? It's like asking if God can make something heavier than he can lift. Does Arc even do genuinely handy things like pattern matching and destructuring LETs, the way Clojure does? Clojure is the not-quite-Scheme Lisp with fewer onions. 19:47:05 edw: I think it does some destructuring in `let' and function arguments. 19:47:12 (What's the arc challange?) 19:47:27 *edw* finds the reference... 19:47:47 eli: http://www.paulgraham.com/arcchallenge.html 19:48:49 See the code starting at line 359 for my reply... 19:48:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:50:02 edw: You mean the web thing? 19:50:15 Yeah. At the bottom of PG's page. 19:50:32 (And the bottom of the source URL I gave, too...) 19:51:02 IIRC, his whole point was in the scope of a practical web framework. 19:51:28 Right, which I wrote. (That said, continuation/clojure-based web frameworks are a bad idea.) 19:51:57 wow, real r6rs in the wild! http://freshmeat.net/projects/r6rs-protobuf 19:52:19 The Hacker News site sucks because it's implemented using the bad idea that is the basis of the Arc Challenge. 19:52:21 edw: My guess is that he'd consider that whole file as a solution. 19:52:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:14 eli: No, that file contains a bunch of independent demos. You need nothing other than those 18 lines or whatever. 19:53:55 eli: As well as the framework, of course. 19:54:09 *eli* shrugs again 19:54:21 wingo: here's where he talked about that hack: http://arclanguage.org/item?id=10254 19:55:41 edw: http://arclanguage.org/item?id=858 , if you're so into such things. 19:56:12 eli: I think he's chasing false economy. Wht not rename LET as L or make LAMBDA FN (or a Unicode lambda symbol)? It ends in APL, which I imagine programmer starts to forget every he goes out for a cigarette break. 19:57:19 eli: I submitted mine to HN forever ago. 19:57:34 edw: He did address that -- on one hand, he referred to the number of *tokens* as the indication of verbosity. 19:58:04 And on the other hand, the names themselves should be convenient yet memorable. IMO, they went too far to the the shorter side though. 19:58:55 But there *are* some valid points there -- for example, the `noun-verb' idiomatic scheme names are inconvenient since they mean that there is very little overloading done. 19:59:16 And that's one lesson that clojure dealt with well. (IIUC, which is not much.) 19:59:21 eli: Yeah, but I still don't see what the point is. Heroku does more to make Rails a compelling platform than tightening up Ruby's syntax or Rails' naming conventions would. 19:59:54 eli: I really like Clojure, and I completely agree with you re: Hickey's good taste. 20:00:00 ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:00:07 didnt clojure use 'fn' as lambda? 20:00:18 and 'ns' as namespace? 20:01:13 Yeah, but this aren't a big deal. I'm only irritated by FN because these things are *procedures* not *functions*. 20:01:18 FWIW, if it wasn't for the historical context, I'd consider `fn' as a better option than `lambda'. 20:01:30 Despite the fact that it's longer. 20:01:45 How about PROC? 20:01:47 `fun' is even better. 20:02:03 i think its embarrassing that arcane naming conventions are considered useful in the programming world 20:02:23 edw: I *hate* "procedure" with a passion. It's yet another historical baggage from Pascal-times. 20:02:59 eli: I disagree. I believe it captures an important distinction. A procedure computes the value of a function. 20:03:08 Nonsense. 20:03:15 That's bogus SICP-ism. 20:03:51 And -- AFAIK -- SICP is the *only* place where that distinction was made. 20:04:05 I like that bogus SICP-ism. I buy into the underlying metaphysics of SICP. 20:04:21 It's not nonsense. It is a useful distinction. 20:04:52 Fib() is a function FIB is a procedure that computes it. 20:05:13 It can be iterative or recursive or whatever. 20:05:20 Or constant time... 20:05:24 It is nonsensical since it is an attempt to make a distinction that is almost completely misleading. 20:05:38 Same goes for the distinction between "iterative" and "recursive". 20:05:49 There is no procedure to compute certain functions. Certain procedures do not compute any functions at all, or have effects other than computing functions. 20:07:45 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 20:07:51 Functions are functions and that's all there is to it when you're working with computers. IOW, there is no distinct notion of a "function" other than things that you can compute. I know what they would say here -- that the "procedure" is somehow the "text" that implements the function, but given that these functions are limited to computable ones, this distinction is done among things that are anyway not what (clas 20:07:51 sical) mathematicians would call "function". 20:08:34 Oh, and another bad SICP-ism is "applicative order"... 20:10:41 When I say `function' I don't mean `computable function'. 20:11:15 And that's exactly the root of the bogosity. 20:11:33 As a programmer, you can't talk about any other kind of function. 20:11:42 s. 20:12:12 I think you're overstepping the bounds of what you can say I can't talk about, eli. 20:12:25 Do you have a court order restraining me from talking about noncomputable functions? 20:12:37 augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 20:12:48 What about uncountably infinite sets? 20:13:24 Am I allowed to mention Zorn's lemma, or is there a law prohibiting that? 20:13:45 I obviously cannot tell you what you can and cannot say -- if you have an illusion that you can say something when you don't do so (according to certain popular conventions), then feel free to go on with it. 20:14:00 I have some friends who like to study the axiom of choice and subtle variations thereon, but I guess I'm not permitted to hold conversations with them. 20:14:43 When I say `choice function', evidently I can't be serious, because those functions are noncomputable. 20:14:47 Ahem, I mean, those maps are noncomputable. 20:14:57 Or is `map' forbidden to me too? 20:15:21 Talking about choice is obviously possible, but if your friends are using classical logic then you will have some fundamental differences that you'll need to resolve with them. 20:16:10 I guess what I mean is those sets f of pairs in X x Y with the property that if (x, y) \in X and (x, y') in X then y = y'. But that's quite a mouthful. 20:16:10 s/in X/in f/g 20:16:34 In fact, wrt that argument, if your friends are using classical logic then it is nearly impossible for them to talk about the axiom of choice -- for example, their notion of `' would be very different than yours. 20:17:36 In yet other words, classical logic is unable to express the notion of computability. 20:20:08 -!- augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has left #scheme 20:21:00 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:41 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 20:23:28 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable182.177-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:24:39 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-140.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:26:22 It really doesn't matter what flavour of logic I'm talking in to draw a distinction between functions and procedures. Procedures have many properties that are either absent from functions, or irrelevant when I'm talking about functions. The obvious is that procedures can have side effects. Procedures can occupy resources. Procedures can make network connections. Other than that, procedures take time to run. Procedures can be disassembled. 20:26:43 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:27:10 " dawg..." 20:28:06 The function from R to R \ R^- sending x |---> x^2 may be implemented by the procedure (lambda (x) (* x x)), or by the procedure (lambda (x) (let ((y (* x (expt 2 1234))) (/ (* x x) (expt 2 (* 1234 2], but those procedures exhibit substantially different properties that are all irrelevant to the function x |---> x^2. 20:30:09 Of course, those procedures don't actually implement the function I just described; they implement a significantly limited function, closer to a function on Q, or at least a function on the subset of Q whose elements have numerators and denominators that fit in memory. I suppose you'll object that, as a mere programmer who doesn't know a thing about math or logic, I ought not to even try to talk about `the function x |---> x^2 on R'. 20:30:59 if `function' is a purely mathematical construct and `procedure' is its analogue in programming, what role does `function' have in programs? 20:31:22 None? 20:31:23 Programs can compute functions, jonrafkind. 20:31:38 None in the syntax of the language, that is. 20:31:49 so a function can never appear in a program, so using 'function' is just a synonym for 'procedure' when programming 20:31:54 Programs might even have first-class representations of functions. Sometimes these representations might be as procedures; sometimes they might be as symbolic expressions. 20:32:10 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:32:11 so distinguishing between functions and procedures seems useless 20:32:12 A map or a hashtable is more a function than a procedure. 20:32:23 (define (differentiate-real-valued-unary-function function) (let ((variable (function-variable function)) (expression (function-expression function))) ...) 20:32:37 And Clojure for example allows them to be used called like procedures. 20:33:37 in clojure, what property do functions have that procedures do not have 20:33:40 But certainly I have no interesting function in mind when I write (define (frob! x) (vector-set! x 1 'FOO)). 20:34:00 *eli* sighs 20:34:38 -!- teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable182.177-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: --> Put something intelligent here when I'm more bored <--] 20:35:55 Can a mathematical function have side effects e.g. do I/O? No. Can a Clojure-function? Yes. Clojure is "more functional" than Scheme, of course. 20:36:43 edw: however, I can define a mathematical being that behaves like a clojure function. 20:36:49 Side effects are very much a red fish. 20:37:02 herring. 20:37:58 Fish. 20:38:37 A function is a relation. A procedure is a means of computing that relation. I can't believe this is controversial. I can write to canonical FIB procedures that give the same result but have very different properties. 20:39:05 s/to/two/ 20:39:21 can you write a function in clojure? 20:39:27 or any progarmming language? 20:39:27 edw: what is controversal in the fact that I can define mathematical beings behaving like procedures? 20:39:37 Huh? You can implement a funciton? 20:39:50 Sure. 20:40:00 yea with a procedure 20:40:07 jonrafkind: What are you asking? 20:40:11 jonrafkind: You're getting your spheres of abstractions confused, it sounds like. 20:40:20 pjb, eli's objection is that programmers should not use the term `function' any differently from the term `procedure', and thus that the term `procedure' should be banished, as an artefact of Pascal, in favour of `function'. 20:40:39 if a function is purely a concept, then who cares what you call it when you implement it in a language, either 'function' or 'procedure' or whatever 20:40:47 I would disagree with the verb you're using, jonrafkind. I'd say `implement`. 20:40:50 Well, outside of mathematical definitions, anything goes. It's natural language. 20:41:07 i mean you can only do one thing in a language, implement something that is computable 20:41:44 I claim that the terms `function' and `procedure' have usefully distinct meanings. 20:41:53 What if I have a *procedure* that accesses some cosmic ray harvesting random number generator? Is that computable? 20:42:10 That's not a function. 20:42:15 if oyu can execute it on a machine then it is 20:42:35 You can call it a function, but it is not a mathematical function. 20:42:42 right 20:42:54 Alice in Wonderland, people. 20:42:57 levi: Actually, jonrafkind's "confusion" have real ground. 20:43:18 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #scheme 20:43:25 The question is, are you going to cause confusion by overloading the term 'function' to mean both mathematical function and programming language function? 20:43:27 i thought we were just arguing over the name 'function' being used in a language 20:43:28 edw: Side-effects can still be relations. 20:44:14 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has left #scheme 20:44:17 Yeah, I suppose: if you take the state of the universe as the value being mapped. 20:44:33 s/mapped/mapped to/ 20:44:40 If you're going to do a lot of implementation of mathematical functions in your language and generally use it in a mathematical or even just a formal context, then it probably makes a lot of sense to *not* overload the meaning of the word function. 20:44:46 You don't to get the whole universe involved. 20:45:15 levi: *your* use of "mathematical functions" is deeply confused. 20:45:19 eli: Potentially... Depends on the scope of the side effects. 20:45:37 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #scheme 20:45:42 eli, I'm happy talking about side effects with functions too! I'm perfectly happy talking about the transition functions of machines, for instance. But I'd like to say `The function computed by P is f, and P also has the side effects {x, y, z}.', or `The procedure P computes f on the frob represented by x, storing the result in the answer slot of x.' 20:45:51 purely mathematical functions seem rather useless since they prevent looping as well 20:46:27 jonrafkind: a function is a relation between a domain and a range. At least that's the pre-calc definition. 20:46:34 thank you 20:47:04 Riastradh: You keep ignoring common jargon -- "The function computed by" is much more often worded as "The denotation of". 20:47:18 im saying you could imagine a language that had 'function' and 'procedure' where 'function' disallowed all side-effects in its body, which would remove all I/O and looping/recursion 20:47:50 recursion is a side effect? 20:48:01 an infinite loop is 20:48:02 edw: Those functions that you learn in some calculus course are things that have no obvious equivalent in the computational world. 20:48:06 Yay, I'm deeply confused. :P 20:48:29 No, eli. If you're talking about denotational semantics, then the denotation of P also entails details of the state of a machine -- the store, continuation, &c. 20:48:31 jonrafkind: That's the attempted distinction that Pascal made. 20:49:08 ah yea, its been a long time since i used pascal 20:49:28 oh right a function jsut returns a value, procedures dont 20:49:53 (At least, if you're talking about the denotational semantics of Scheme. Of course there are simpler languages than Scheme whose denotational semantics don't have stores and continuations, &c., but I'm not usually interested in those.) 20:50:47 Riastradh: there's so much confusion here that I'll just do a quick magic trick. 20:50:53 *eli* makes a *poof* sound 20:57:50 jonrafkind: My point is that a function's value is computed using a procedure. Think about the common-sense meaning of "procedure". Like a recipe. A procedure has performance characteristics, big O and all that. It's not a property that's applicable to functions. 20:58:05 -!- djcb [~user@a88-112-253-18.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:42 It's analagous perhaps to the subject of numerical analysis: at a certain point, you can't go around thinking about symbolic mathematical expressions and yuo need a concrete representation. (1 + sqrt(5)) / 2 is great and all but you need to crank and come up with 1.618 when you want to actually draw your nautilus shell. 21:04:39 -!- ravi_ [~ravi@118-92-9-160.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:08:12 huh. that's the first time i've seen someone use a continuation to escape an argument 21:08:44 (k 'apathy) 21:09:27 (k 'yelp!) 21:13:27 (k 'im-an-exception-no-really) 21:18:48 (guard (e (#t 'do-nothing))) 21:19:03 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:19:50 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 21:21:14 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-232-241-255.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:09 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 21:23:57 Being guarded while doing *truely* nothing 21:24:08 Now that's pointless ;) 21:24:18 point-free! 21:26:44 ok, away from the machine. night! 21:32:04 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:40:05 -!- aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 21:56:46 -!- lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:05:25 bzzbzz_ [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:06:13 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:06:18 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.25.8] has quit [Quit: Ave Atque Vale] 22:07:35 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:11:07 Riastradh is a Platonist, I believe: functions are implementation-abstract forms; whereas Eli is an Aristotelean: functions inhere in their implementations. 22:11:45 Or maybe not; but since Aristoteleanism is a degenerate form of Platonism, I'll side with Riastradh. 22:15:42 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:16:51 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:18:16 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:19:13 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 22:27:05 interesting. I viewed it as intensionality (R) versus extensionality (E). 22:29:50 there's also the constructivist (Eli) vs classical (normal people) distinction :) 22:51:54 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:19 -!- duncanm [~duncan@a-chinaman.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:59:14 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.220.202] has joined #scheme 22:59:21 -!- aspect [~aspect@abstracted-spleen.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:59:59 aspect [~aspect@abstracted-spleen.org] has joined #scheme 23:00:24 duncanm [~duncan@a-chinaman.com] has joined #scheme 23:01:21 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-103-180.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:01:22 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 23:02:01 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:06:39 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 23:06:57 -!- gremset [ubuntu@117.192.111.201] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:14:09 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.214.34] has joined #scheme 23:17:14 -!- carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 23:17:30 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.220.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:17:31 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 23:22:16 -!- bzzbzz_ [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:28:28 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:45:04 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 23:48:19 kilimanja [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 23:48:20 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-234-183.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:49:14 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:29 God damn, R is hilarious: . 23:55:41 -!- duncanm [~duncan@a-chinaman.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:55:45 duncanm [~duncan@a-chinaman.com] has joined #scheme 23:56:05 It's a little uncanny to write in a language once implemented in Scheme: its pedigree shows. 23:58:21 -!- rramsden [~rramsden@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:58:44 gremset [ubuntu@117.192.106.141] has joined #scheme 23:59:20 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #scheme 23:59:37 -!- gremset [ubuntu@117.192.106.141] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:59:55 gremset [ubuntu@117.192.106.141] has joined #scheme 23:59:56 Maybe "hilarious" is a little strong; but it's endearing to find partially implemented quasi-quotes and call-cc. I'm more forgiving there than I am with Python's castrated lambda, for some reason.