00:01:49 -!- alexgord- is now known as alexgordon 00:05:00 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:07:08 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:28 -!- Bahman [~bahman@2.146.26.16] has left #scheme 00:13:40 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:22:18 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-168-232.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:27:39 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-5-227.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #scheme 00:29:42 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:30:09 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:30:45 dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 00:30:49 ckrailo [~ckrailo@utdpat242007.utdallas.edu] has joined #scheme 00:30:49 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 00:43:04 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 00:47:14 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-5-227.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:50:06 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:19 Without thinking, I just wrote a comment in a shell script describing `${-:"-${-}"}' as `the obvious idiom' (in order to point out that it's broken in NetBSD). I think I need help. 00:52:22 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@utdpat242007.utdallas.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:56:40 saiko-chriskun [~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has joined #scheme 00:57:23 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:00:37 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 01:07:07 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-152-135-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:08:58 Riastradh, i prescribe 1 week in the big blue room 01:10:44 -!- samth is now known as samth_awak 01:10:51 -!- samth_awak is now known as samth_away 01:11:04 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:11:59 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:19 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:18:33 I think he just needs a nap. In two hours, he'll be fine 01:18:48 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 01:18:58 alexgord- [~alexgordo@beyond.conceited.net] has joined #scheme 01:19:29 -!- twem2 [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:19:45 twem2 [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has joined #scheme 01:19:51 -!- alexgordon [~alexgordo@beyond.conceited.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:19:55 -!- alexgord- is now known as alexgordon 01:20:30 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-62-150.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:30 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:33 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 01:21:44 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:24:02 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-62-150.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 01:29:14 I take it $- is a placeholder in that example 01:30:53 hold on, Riastradh, that substitution doesn't even make sense 01:31:45 how is ${parameter:"quoted value"} supposed to expand? Do you intend ${-:-"-${-}"} ? 01:44:41 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #scheme 01:45:19 Sorry, I meant ${-:+"-${-}"}. 01:45:35 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:46:02 $- is not a placeholder; I wanted to run a script with the same shell options as the invoking script was run with. 01:46:14 So: sh ${-:+"-${-}"} foo.sh 01:47:11 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-249-96.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:47:36 oh, the + was missing from your previous example 01:49:41 Yes. 01:49:48 now it makes perfect sense. Which shell breaks it? 01:49:55 NetBSD's sh. 01:51:09 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:51:36 nasty. is it the quoting in the substitution that fails, or something more pernicious? 01:51:55 $ sh -c 'echo "x ${-:+set$-} x"' 01:51:59 x set x 01:54:35 -!- saiko-chriskun [~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:54:49 Or, more to the point: 01:54:54 $ sh -c 'echo ${-:+"-${-}"}lose' 01:54:54 -lose 01:56:06 eww. I'd ask more but I really don't want to know :) 01:58:50 Well, there's nothing more to it, as far as I know... 01:59:36 does it affect non-special vars? Or (less likely) is it a misbehaviour with $- and substitutions? 02:00:01 It's a misbehaviour with $-. 02:00:10 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:00:20 Replace - by a and it works. 02:00:23 affecting other substitutions than :+? 02:00:55 :- works. 02:01:39 The above prints -hBclose for me. 02:02:02 But my sh is bash 02:03:18 XTL [~XTL@dsl-olubrasgw2-fe6af800-251.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 02:04:26 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-140.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:06:55 saiko-chriskun [~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has joined #scheme 02:12:16 -!- ijp`` [~user@86.150.74.195] has quit [Quit: It's after 3 in the bloody morning] 02:24:23 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:26:07 -!- infid [~infid@99-101-15-134.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:27:52 infid [~infid@rrcs-173-198-12-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:41:11 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:43:04 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 02:53:02 -!- infid [~infid@rrcs-173-198-12-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:54:34 infid [~infid@99-101-15-134.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:56:42 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #scheme 03:02:06 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:02:25 ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-173-71-46-119.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:03:45 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-248-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:53 ASau` [~user@93-80-248-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 03:15:45 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 03:16:12 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:29:03 -!- infid [~infid@99-101-15-134.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:30:15 infid [~infid@rrcs-173-198-12-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:48:26 jrt4 [~jrtaylori@207-118-45-56.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #scheme 03:51:43 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:55:50 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 03:56:13 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:57:14 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: outside] 04:03:50 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:06:38 -!- YokYok [~david@v6.nietwork.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:14:08 Good evening 04:17:04 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-164-105.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 04:17:23 ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:18:02 -!- DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-37-52.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:18:54 DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-37-52.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 04:21:42 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:24:52 -!- bwhitlock [~brad@174-16-231-161.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:26:33 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:48:55 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:05:00 appleade280 [~appleade2@c-24-118-230-60.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:16:10 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 05:23:06 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:29:04 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:30:27 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 05:34:59 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-lnfpcvpqjctgvqel] has joined #scheme 05:37:46 pjb: C-t is comfortable; but ratpoison uses it, unfortunately. 05:38:20 I configure ratpoison to use C-t as escape character. 05:38:36 Perhaps you mean emacs use it? Yes, but for transpose-char, which is not essential. 05:38:56 Exactly; but you mentioned that you use C-t for screen, too. 05:39:19 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 05:39:37 I made a mistake, I use C-z in screen. 05:39:47 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C6C24.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 05:40:05 Oh, I see; yeah, I guess I don't background stuff that often. 05:40:13 I might try edw's C-\ for a while. 05:40:37 C-a, of course, is used all the time; but C-a a for beginning-of-line is neurally hardwired by now. 05:40:38 I use toggle-input-method (C-\) from time to time. 05:40:44 Ah, right. 05:41:55 Now, we could just use a Tan Le mind reader, and type anything, the computer will know what we mean. :-) 05:42:18 http://www.emotiv.com/ 05:42:59 USD 300, it's even cheap. 05:45:46 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #scheme 05:48:46 -!- appleade280 [~appleade2@c-24-118-230-60.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 05:56:15 -!- jonrafkind 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[~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #scheme 10:07:56 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-224-114.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:20:13 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-30-20.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:30 stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-196-15.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 10:22:00 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:23:21 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:24:48 pjb: Bizarre; some kind of electroencephalograph? 10:24:53 (printf form v ...)  void? ...what exactly does this mean? 10:25:01 does printf return a value? 10:25:22 EM03: It exists primarily for its side effect: namely printing something. 10:25:35 masm [~masm@bl15-64-30.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:25:42 so whats the return value? 10:26:04 I know its printing something out but is there a return value actually? 10:26:38 Yeah; check this out: 10:26:41 incubot: (display 2) 10:26:41 2# 10:26:54 # happens to be the return value. 10:27:18 > (printf "sdfdsfdsf") 10:27:19 sdfdsfdsf 10:27:19 > 10:27:23 I don't see a return value here 10:27:31 > 10 10:27:31 10 10:27:31 > 10:27:36 here I do 10:27:55 alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has joined #scheme 10:28:21 EM03: Please use more standard metasyntacic variables (that don't highlight me! :-P) 10:28:29 EM03: some schemes won't display the unspecified value 10:29:00 fds: lol do you get that alot? 10:29:16 fds: No, I think this is the first time. 10:29:46 Oops 10:29:48 so for all purposes printf and things that cause side effects like this ...don't really have a return value well they do its just unspecified value? 10:29:54 s/fds/EM03/ 10:30:03 It's early. :-P 10:30:12 EM03: unspecified is, well, unspecified 10:30:19 EM03: Chicken has a `->string' function, for instance, that lets you coerce unspecified, etc. values into strings; but it's not standard. 10:30:26 rasterba_ [~rasterbar@99-113-184-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 10:30:50 incubot: (->string (void)) 10:30:51 # 10:31:42 > (define (y) (printf "dsfsdfdsfsdf") 10) 10:31:42 > y 10:31:43 # 10:31:43 > (y) 10:31:43 dsfsdfdsfsdf10 10:32:01 if I put the 10 before the printf it won't return 10 but it looks like I dont get a return at all just the print side effect 10:32:15 yes, it prints your string then it prints the value of (y) which is 10 10:32:17 but I guess I am getting a return its just unspecified so it does not show it? 10:32:17 EM03: What scheme are you using? 10:32:17 return value = result of the last expression 10:32:28 racket 10:32:46 C-Keen: if i put the 10 before the printf though the 10 is not returned at all 10:32:58 EM03: because the unspecified value is not shown 10:33:06 ok that answered my question 10:33:14 > (define (y) (printf "dsfsdfdsfsdf") "return value...") 10:33:14 > (y) 10:33:15 dsfsdfdsfsdf"return value..." 10:33:20 the small unknown things like this save me trouble hehe 10:33:23 *fds* grumbles 10:33:31 I said that 5 min ago already :) 10:33:49 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:34:02 I don't really like side effects but I guess for some things they are needed :P 10:34:20 yeah like I/O 10:36:52 amoe [~amoe@cpc1-brig13-0-0-cust658.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 10:36:59 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-196-15.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:37:11 stis_ [~stis@host-90-232-247-132.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 10:37:48 for me thats all C programs are just collections of side effects 10:38:21 side effects to me are like the only time in a well defined language that the rules are allowed to be broken and non standard things happen 10:38:30 well not the only time but a good chance its happening then 10:38:36 maybe I'm wrong for thinking like this :( 10:39:27 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:39:54 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-90-232-247-132.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:25 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:06 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-64-30.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:45:28 klutometis: why did display 2 return a void? in racket it does not .. 10:45:42 although display printf "sdfsdf" does return a void like it should per the racket docs 10:47:12 EM03: http://docs.racket-lang.org/r5rs-std/r5rs-Z-H-9.html?q=zip#%_idx_658 10:47:19 > Display returns an unspecified value. 10:48:39 incubot: (list 0 (display 1) 2) 10:48:39 1(0 # 2) 10:48:58 EM03 : you can try that if you like 10:49:00 Does anybody know if there is something like zipWith (which acts like `zip', but takes funcion which is used for zipping?) 10:49:21 ohwow : `map' ? 10:50:12 rudybot: eval (map (lambda (a b) (list a b a)) (list 0 1 2) (list 3 4)) 10:50:13 ski: your sandbox is ready 10:50:13 ski: error: map: all lists must have same size; arguments were: # (0 1 2) (3 4) 10:50:18 bah 10:50:21 rudybot: eval (map (lambda (a b) (list a b a)) (list 0 1 2) (list 3 4 5)) 10:50:21 ski: ; Value: ((0 3 0) (1 4 1) (2 5 2)) 10:51:01 r5rs map 10:51:07 ... 10:51:17 rudybot: slap specbot for not being present 10:51:17 ski: pokes specbot with a stick 10:51:36 o 10:51:37 thanks 10:51:44 i forgot that map can take multiple lists 10:51:47 as arguments 10:52:15 rudybot: eval (map (lambda (a b) (values a b a)) (list 0 1 2) (list 3 4 5)) ; doesn't work :( 10:52:16 ski: error: context expected 1 value, received 3 values: 0 3 0 10:52:58 (i would like that to produce the same as `(values (list 0 1 2) (list 3 4 5) (list 0 1 2))' ..) 10:53:37 rudybot: eval '() 10:53:38 ohwow: your sandbox is ready 10:53:38 ohwow: ; Value: () 10:54:18 EM03 : arguably, side-effecting procedures (which doesn't compute any useful value) should return zero values .. 10:54:58 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 10:55:25 .. that way, with a `map' as imagined just above, there would be no need of `for-each' (well, we'd want `map-in-order' or whatever it is called, for well-defined effect ordering) 10:55:36 ski: hm, why do you want to use map here? you are not iterating over any lists 10:55:58 sorry ? 10:56:24 in my rudybot invocations above, `map' was indeed iterating over lists 10:56:40 But you want to get (values lst1 lst2 lst1)? 10:57:19 `map' in several languages only operates on one input list, and produces only one output list 10:57:28 here it can also operate on more than one input list 10:57:40 i wished for it to also be able to produce more than one output list 10:58:05 ("here" being : in Scheme, and in some other languages) 10:58:49 ah 10:58:53 got it, sorry 10:59:10 ohwow : so in Haskell terms, the `map' i wished for is like a combined `unzip' and `zipWith' 11:01:50 rudybot: eval (unzip3 (map (lambda (x y) (list x y x)) '(1 2 3) '(a b c))) 11:01:50 ohwow: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: unzip3 in module: 'program 11:01:51 (more or less `(all (in ... out ...) (: map (*->* ((*->* (in ...) (out ...)) (list-of in) ...) ((list-of out) ...))))') 11:02:02 rudybot: require srfi-1 11:02:02 ohwow: I notice your proposal only has a natural constructor, not a filtering constructor like SRFI-9. So you'd need a new proposal if you want SRFI-9 compatibility. 11:02:08 ski: you can do that by providing your own with fold 11:02:14 rudybot: require SRFI-1 11:02:14 ohwow: cky, note that SRFI 69'S HASH-TABLE-UPDATE! is necessarily HASH-TABLE-REF followed by HASH-TABLE-SET! in the general case. For special cases, I suppose one might optimize it with some kind of generation number, but nobody does as far as I know. 11:02:41 OKAY 11:03:28 rudybot: eval (require srfi-1) 11:03:28 ski: error: eval:1:9: srfi-1: standard-module-name-resolver: collection not found: "srfi-1" in any of: (#) in: srfi-1 11:03:33 hrm 11:03:42 rudybot: eval (require srfi/1) 11:03:42 ohwow: Done. 11:03:46 rudybot: eval (unzip3 (map (lambda (x y) (list x y x)) '(1 2 3) '(a b c))) 11:03:46 ohwow: ; Value: (1 2 3) 11:03:47 ohwow: ; Value#2: (a b c) 11:03:48 ohwow: ; Value#3: (1 2 3) 11:04:59 C-Keen : yeah, i know i can roll my own (i already have, to make sure i could) .. it just seemed to me to possibly be sensible if `map' already did this 11:05:35 maybe there's some reason for not adding this to the default `map', though .. 11:06:55 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-140.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 11:06:56 ohwow: yea I noticed that .... I mean the purpose of display is to give the representation of each object right? 11:08:04 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 11:09:29 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-nassvngajskgkice] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:09:43 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 11:09:52 EM03 : 11:09:52 http://tinyurl.com/7rd27g 11:11:49 ski: yea to a "newer" user it does help but surely doesn't answer all questions ;P 11:12:52 "Write is intended for producing machine-readable output and display is for producing human-readable output." 11:13:19 ok 11:14:49 that's why (write "h") -> "h" , and (display "h") -> h 11:18:40 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 11:21:42 I was just curious why the scheme bot thingy returned a void when doing a display 2 11:22:39 EM03: All functions return a value. DISPLAY returns "an unspecified value". 11:23:40 i thought display was showing me the value of everything enclosed in it 11:23:53 the value of each "thing" 11:24:06 DISPLAY prints to the given/current output port the value you pass to it, yes. 11:24:23 In addition, because it should return a value but has nothing meaningful to return, it returns an unspecified value. 11:24:40 > (display 2) 11:24:40 2 11:24:40 Many Scheme implementations' REPLs suppress the printing of unspecified values when it's the sole return value. 11:24:46 EM03: ^ 11:24:53 the scheme bot here returned something with a void 11:24:57 Try this: (list (display 2)). 11:24:57 ah 11:25:40 yes that showed it 11:25:42 (EM03 : i suggested `(list 0 (display 1) 2)' above .. :) 11:25:54 ski: Sometimes things have to be said more than 3 times. ;-) 11:26:00 indeed 11:26:09 I do apologize :( 11:26:24 I have been up all night getting crap php and python stuff done ...this is the only fun time I get 11:26:56 It's okay. There's a learning curve involved, yes. :-) One of the learning concepts in Scheme is that nearly all functions return _something_, even if that something is unspecified. 11:27:22 kuribas [~user@d54C43D8A.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 11:28:47 *ski* idly wonders if there's any hope of r7rs permitting `begin' (and internal bodies) creating continuations that accept any number of results and also "purely" side-effecting procedures to return zero values .. 11:28:52 well I was just baffled why display was showing something with a printf inside of it but not for a standard number or string 11:29:49 rudybot: eval (display "") 11:29:49 ski: Done. 11:30:08 rudybot: eval (display (display "")) 11:30:08 ski: ; stdout: "#" 11:31:04 ski: It's very unlikely, given the ballot results on that topic. 11:32:14 ok. too bad 11:33:58 ski: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/ticket/68 11:37:04 ski: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/WG1Ballot2Results#a68Undefinedvaluevs.undefinedvalues for voter comments. 11:37:05 http://tinyurl.com/3jxpkqt 11:40:55 ty 11:41:19 ok, that's re returning zero values 11:41:43 is there any ballot re `begin' (and similar) creating continuations which accept zero values ? 11:41:54 (i can't find any on that page, on a quick search) 11:42:35 ski: by that do you mean (begin (values) 3) should return 3 not error 11:43:04 aye 11:43:30 i think the only thing that "forbids" that is the macro definition in the "derived expressions" section, but I may have skipped over something 11:46:43 incubot: (begin (values) 3) 11:46:44 3 11:49:21 mhm 11:51:40 well, even then it would be "unspecified" rather than an error, by virtue of not being created by call-with-values. Perhaps this should be brought up on the mailing list 11:53:09 EbiDK [6d380754@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.56.7.84] has joined #scheme 11:54:56 -!- astertronistic [~astertron@be-sun02.ic.ucsc.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:57:55 xwl [~user@123.108.223.27] has joined #scheme 12:10:41 -!- aoh [~aki@85.23.168.123] has quit [Quit: switching servers] 12:13:51 aoh [~aki@85.23.168.115] has joined #scheme 12:28:18 jasodf [~opera@108.135.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #scheme 12:41:15 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:52:18 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 12:52:47 -!- xwl [~user@123.108.223.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:54:53 Can somebody please tell me what's wrong with my code? http://pastebin.com/7w3VaGtg for some reason server disconnects me 13:01:22 ohwow: Using WRITE is definitely wrong. 13:01:34 That will output all your strings with quotes around them. 13:02:55 Also, you should send NICK before USER. 13:03:14 Plus, you need to wait for the signin to complete before you can issue a JOIN. 13:03:55 You also need to watch for PING messages from the server, and respond to them with PONG. 13:04:29 Writing an IRC client is slightly more work than you might expect. ;-) 13:07:18 cky: yeah I know about PING, but I want to do it one thing at a time 13:07:26 Ah, write is the problem 13:07:27 of course 13:07:30 stupid me 13:07:31 thanks! 13:08:59 actually it works with JOIN and nick after user 13:09:02 hm 13:11:41 Hmmm. 13:12:52 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:13:18 It might be helpful to read some other irc clients' code 13:14:37 http://hg.suckless.org/sic/file/cb3bfd46c84d/sic.c :) 13:14:53 yeah I was reading irc egg from chicken scheme but somehow fucked up the write part :/ 13:15:08 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 13:16:26 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-49-168.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:16:39 The eggs would seem a pretty good source, yes. 13:18:17 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-49-168.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:26:06 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-77.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:40:01 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #scheme 13:40:45 ohwow: here is a quick start I did in IronScheme (not finished) 13:40:46 https://ironscheme.svn.codeplex.com/svn/IronScheme/IronScheme.Console/playground/irc.ss 13:40:47 http://tinyurl.com/3nspvxc 13:43:46 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 13:50:21 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 13:50:37 thanks 13:51:18 leppie: are you the guy who made ironscheme? 13:51:30 yeah ohwow 13:54:01 cool 13:54:15 Do you have continuations implemented? 13:56:10 Hahahahahahahaha. 13:56:35 Unless IronScheme implements heap-side call frames, like SISC does, full continuations are probably too hard to implement in .NET. 13:57:29 tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has joined #scheme 13:59:10 yes, too hard cky :) 13:59:26 :< 13:59:42 leppie: what about big numbers? 14:01:50 what about a steak sandwich? 14:02:06 sudo make me some continuations 14:02:21 ;) 14:03:30 bremner_: Oh, BTW, to follow up on our last convo, even with the patches, I still had to pass -j2 to make the build work. ;-) 14:03:43 bremner_: (Thanks for mentioning parallel builds BTW.) 14:03:46 oh, that sounds like a bug 14:04:02 *nods* 14:04:26 why JVM and CLR doesnt have continuation support :[ 14:04:34 dont* 14:04:44 cky: ok, I'll check it again. Anything "interesting" about your build env? 14:04:59 bremner_: Define "interesting". I'm using Squeeze. 14:05:24 cky: that should work. At least I want it too. 14:05:40 ohwow: JVM was designed for Java, and CLR was designed for C#, VB.NET, and other mainstream languages, none of which have full continuations. 14:06:12 cky: can you send me a full (failing) buildlog to $nick@debian.org ? 14:06:19 Including the underscore? 14:06:26 ah no 14:06:28 :-) 14:07:01 RFC 5999, SMTP DWIM extension 14:07:15 ;-) 14:14:37 wingo [~wingo@95.21.57.167] has joined #scheme 14:14:59 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:15:53 -!- Checkie [17948@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:17:02 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #scheme 14:19:02 -!- jasodf [~opera@108.135.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: jasodf] 14:22:17 edw [~user@70-89-62-209-philadelphia-panjde.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:22:35 Riastradh: Thanks for the goading. https://gist.github.com/959033 14:29:43 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-164-105.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:34:47 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:40:49 ohwow: sorry had to go out quick, yes I implement the entire R6RS number tower 14:41:38 the only limitation is that continuations is only escape continuations 14:43:12 cool 14:44:01 -!- wingo [~wingo@95.21.57.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:46:36 ohwow: I have not found a terrible need for them, as there is normally other ways to do it, or with the help from the CLR 14:56:58 ymasory [~ymasory@frank.ldc.upenn.edu] has joined #scheme 15:03:16 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 15:08:20 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:25 leppie: What Scheme are you working on? 15:08:42 edw: IronScheme. 15:08:48 Ah. 15:08:51 CLR? 15:09:01 Yep, the .NET Common Language Runtime. 15:09:08 Ah. 15:09:40 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.206.51] has joined #scheme 15:11:36 LN^zocken [LN@frbg-4d02996e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 15:12:53 ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has joined #scheme 15:17:20 leppie, only escape continuations? That's not Scheme. 15:29:48 rudybot: (display '(display "test")) 15:29:48 ivartj_: ; stdout: "(display test)" 15:30:03 I sort of expected that the quotation marks would be preserved. 15:30:35 ivartj_: You want WRITE 15:30:37 Use WRITE. 15:30:40 Thanks. 15:30:41 rudybot: (write '(display "test")) 15:30:41 Riastradh: your sandbox is ready 15:30:41 Riastradh: ; stdout: "(display \"test\")" 15:30:45 lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 15:33:40 if (write) wrote '(display "test"), wouldn't it (read) ''(display "test")? 15:34:48 DT``: no, but try it 15:36:35 Riastradh: it's the sacrifice for speed and being frinedly to use the hosting runtime, aka the CLR. If I can find a convincing use case, then I would be more 'interested' in implementing them. 15:36:46 both racket and chicken read '(list) as '(quote list). 15:37:23 DT``, it's a little more accurate to say that they read '(list) as what '(quote list) evaluates to 15:37:24 Hmm 15:37:26 *(quote (list)) 15:37:56 (quote (list)) is '(list) 15:39:07 I forgot a ' there. 15:39:08 Riastradh: Also, if I really want to reify continuations, and not worry about the CLR, I would use another Scheme :) 15:39:32 rudybot: eval (with-input-from-string (with-output-to-string (lambda () (write ''(display "ll")))) read) 15:39:33 ohwow: your sandbox is ready 15:39:33 ohwow: ; Value: (quote (display "ll")) 15:39:44 leppie, you shouldn't call it Scheme. From day 1, Scheme has had full continuations. There are many applications, such as AMB and coroutines, but that's beside the point that Scheme supports and always has supported reifying full continuations. 15:40:24 Riastradh, there are plenty of Scheme's that don't support full continuations, mostly on hostile runtimes like the CLR 15:41:04 Those aren't Scheme. They're languages cosmetically similar to Scheme, perhaps, like T was until CWCC was implemented, but not Scheme. 15:41:06 I do understand Riastradh, I just try to fill the niche 15:44:32 perhaps we should ask the mailing list (or for clarification in R7RS) what are the specific requirements for calling an implementation Scheme? 15:44:48 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 15:45:31 else this debate will just go on forever 15:45:38 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C43D8A.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:46:02 sale87 [~sale@82.117.199.26] has joined #scheme 15:46:19 i'm sure certain C compilers also have limitations with repect to the specification, yet they are fully commercial (and some successfull) products 15:46:20 `Scheme' can mean many things, and it has evolved over the years, and sprouted many new meanings, but proper tail recursion and full continuations are essential. They are an essential part of paper #1 on Scheme, and an essential part of every report on Scheme, and an essential part of every serious Scheme system. 15:47:32 *leppie* will from now on call IronScheme a Scheme-like language. Would that be acceptable? 15:48:17 IronLisp :S 15:48:40 lol, been there, done that, got flamed for not supporting the standard ;p 15:48:44 I like the name `Lisp' better, but CommonLispers already captured it 15:48:53 leppie: for not supporting CL standart? 15:49:07 Scheme (R5RS) seemed more managable at that time :) 15:49:17 yes, the one with over a 1000 procs 15:49:22 uhhh 15:49:27 mind you, R6RS does not have much less 15:49:31 that's kinda rude 15:49:32 because 15:49:39 you didn't name it IronCommonLisp 15:49:50 Lisp(tm) is not a property of common lispers 15:49:58 -!- sale87 [~sale@82.117.199.26] has quit [Client Quit] 15:50:20 sale87 [~sale@82.117.199.26] has joined #scheme 15:51:13 I think it is important, else you wont get many users (not that like I have much, probably less than 5 or 10) 15:51:51 the whole thing was a self-enrichment exercise anyways 15:52:25 Why not just call it RandomLang and do whatever you want with it? 15:52:46 IronLisp just sounds good 15:52:51 My language has two users and I'd still be happy with it if I had half that. ;) 15:53:00 Obfuscate: then I'll get blamed if it was not random enough :) 15:53:08 hah 15:53:18 urandomLang ;) 15:53:20 Obfuscate: what language is that? 15:53:52 Riastradh, Kawa is pretty commonly referred to as a "Scheme" 15:54:18 as is Common Larceny (which doesn't have truly proper tail calls) 15:55:16 there is 2 ways to do full continuations on the CLR, CPS (as you kindly provided Riastradh) which is proven to work, or writing an interpreter 15:55:18 Does Kawa have continuations or TCO? 15:55:44 leppie: I haven't made a public release yet: it's a very vaguely scheme-like language with pattern matching that lacks garbage collection. 15:55:57 Kawa also just do escape continuations, probably implemented just like in IRonScheme, with exceptions 15:56:30 Obfuscate: When you have 16GB RAM, who gives a shit about memory leaks :) 15:56:45 Hm, if you compile to CLR, don't you get GC for free? 15:57:19 ohwow: Kawa might do some tail call elimination, but I cant recall now if it does 15:57:28 yeah, free GC :) 15:57:59 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@frank.ldc.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:58:24 leppie, there's also the technique described here: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/scheme/pubs/stackhack4.html 15:58:33 leppie: Actually, I put a lot of effort into making resource leaks easy to track down, and have some static checking on it. 15:59:51 samth: I have been thru that, and it has the same disadvantages of CPS :( 16:01:25 -!- sale87 [~sale@82.117.199.26] has quit [Changing host] 16:01:25 sale87 [~sale@unaffiliated/sale87] has joined #scheme 16:03:30 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 16:04:07 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 16:04:47 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:05:04 samth: why does Common Larceny not have true tail calls? From what I could see, they actually have their own little runtime in the CLR (which makes it so slow) 16:05:25 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:08:35 mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 16:08:43 leppie, calls in Common Larceny are (tail) method calls on the CLR, at least last time I talked to someone about it 16:08:52 and since tail calls aren't always respected by the CLR ... 16:09:23 samth: that I have noticed, specifically on 64-bit :( 16:14:40 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 16:18:05 HG` [~HG@p5DC04E09.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:22:42 rramsden [~rramsden@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 16:37:22 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 16:37:37 -!- mathk_ is now known as mathk 16:44:47 monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:45:34 wingo [~wingo@167.57.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 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[~hussaibi@wirewall.cs.toronto.edu] has joined #scheme 18:41:58 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.202.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:42:54 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-154-120.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:43:04 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 18:43:15 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:43:36 nteon [~nteon@c-98-210-195-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:43:59 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC04E09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:44:24 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:47:57 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.26.16] has joined #scheme 18:48:13 Hi all! 18:48:29 edw [~user@70-89-62-209-philadelphia-panjde.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 18:48:45 saiko-chriskun [~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has joined #scheme 18:48:54 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.26.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:37 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:42 Anyone here use cmuscheme48 with Scheme48? Looking for advice on developing modules while working in Emacs... 18:50:02 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #scheme 18:51:35 samth, it is very confusing that anyone calls Kawa a Scheme. I thought Common Larceny had proper tail recursion through some horrible hack with the exception system, but I don't remember clearly. 18:51:55 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 18:55:17 Riastradh: Same with this new Fargo thing. "Oh, it's Scheme, but without CAL/CC." At least it has TCO. 18:55:24 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:56:15 TCO or an enormous stack... 18:57:18 Riastradh, the hack with the exception system is for call/cc 18:57:18 lol 18:57:28 that's what I linked to above 18:57:31 Tail call optimization is a little different from proper tail recursion, edw. 18:57:35 -!- knknk [~knknk@cpc2-aztw22-2-0-cust6.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:57:39 What about hiygiene macros? 18:57:46 *hygiene 18:57:59 Oh, right, sorry. Thinking like a C programmer there for a sec. 18:58:03 aren't they the special feature of Scheme too? 18:58:38 edw, Riastradh, can you please explain the difference between proper tail recursion and TCO? 18:59:01 *edw* steps aside and makes waving gesture toward Riastradh 18:59:48 Hygienic macros are not as quintessential to Scheme, ohwow. They didn't come around until the middle of the eighties, and a lot of issues weren't sorted out until the early nineties. That said, every halfway reasonable Scheme system supports them to some degree, so one might say they're an essential part of modern Scheme. 19:00:32 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:01:02 Tail call optimization is a compiler optimization whereby the code generated for a procedure call in a tail position replaces the calling procedure's activation record (stack frame, registers, &c.) in place by the activation record for the called procedure. 19:01:36 knknk [~knknk@cpc2-aztw22-2-0-cust6.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 19:01:50 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #scheme 19:02:00 Proper tail recursion is a property of the space complexity of a Scheme implementation. Some implementations guarantee proper tail recursion by applying tail call optimization to every procedure call in a tail position. Others guarantee it in other ways, e.g. by making explicit links between activation records and garbage-collecting the storage area where they reside. 19:02:20 -!- knknk [~knknk@cpc2-aztw22-2-0-cust6.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:02:35 See Clinger's paper `Proper Tail Recursion and Space Efficiency' for the definitions of some space complexity classes that Scheme implementations can lie in, such as proper tail recursion. 19:03:06 or by pushing stack frames on argument evaluation, rather than on function call, as Rabbit did originally 19:03:16 So TCO is a technique for guaranteeing proper tail recursion? 19:03:39 ohwow, that, or for speeding up programs, or for slowing down programs. 19:04:13 slowing down? 19:04:37 Sure. In some cases tail call optimization can slow a program down that would have been faster without tail call optimization. 19:05:22 Example: Suppose you evaluate (map (lambda (x) ...) list) in a tail position. The compiler knows that MAP's first argument has dynamic extent, so it could be allocated on the stack, but that's all the compiler knows about MAP. 19:06:16 However, if the compiler applies TCO to this call to MAP, it can't leave any information from the caller on the stack. So it can't store the procedure (lambda (x) ...) on the stack, and must store that procedure in the heap. 19:06:31 This puts pressure on the garbage collector -- it causes the garbage collector to run more often, slowing your program down. 19:06:57 tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has joined #scheme 19:07:50 ah i see 19:17:48 ymasory [~ymasory@mkb008.apng.isc-seo.upenn.edu] has joined #scheme 19:23:05 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 19:23:41 masm [~masm@bl15-64-30.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 19:27:04 -!- astertronistic [~astertron@be-sun12.ic.ucsc.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:35:58 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-154-120.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:37:31 mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 19:37:33 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 19:39:00 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:41:51 -!- groovy2shoes 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