00:00:03 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 00:02:32 incandenza [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 00:05:44 zmv [~daniel@c934ad95.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 00:14:39 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:16:18 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:27:47 -!- evhan [~evhan@76-250-39-229.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:30:19 -!- tessier_ [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:30:34 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-140.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:31:38 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 00:33:09 evhan [~evhan@76-250-39-229.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:35:13 *offby1* throws 00:35:17 go get it, boy! 00:36:03 hahaha 00:36:54 *jcowan* whimpers and threatens to cut off the White Rock supplies 00:39:08 draft of R7RS, I'm guessing? 00:39:47 Yes. 00:40:42 http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/attachment/wiki/WikiStart/r7rs-draft-1.pdf 00:41:44 http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/raw-attachment/wiki/WikiStart/r7rs-draft-1.pdf gets you to the PDF itself. 00:42:25 I learned a useful term today: the Dunning-Kruger effect. 00:42:40 what is it? 00:43:08 Ignorance induces confidence. 00:43:19 It's the phenomenon that ignorance of one's incompetence leads to inflated assessment of one's competence, and, conversely, knowledge about a skill leads to deflated assessment of one's competence at it. 00:44:06 Evidently I missed it among the Ig Nobel Prizes -- Dunning and Kruger were given the Ig Nobel Prize in Psychology for it in 2000. 00:44:15 But the first effect is much larger than the second. The top quartile put themselves in the 50-75% quartile; the bottom quartile put themselves in the top quartile. 00:45:05 Yes, indeed. And it the effect is most pronounced in Americans, much less so in Europeans and not much at all in east Asians. 00:46:19 It's because our educational system teaches us to be creative and de-emphasizes our actual relative competence levels. 00:46:29 Yes, it's not surprising... 00:46:51 ... which is not necessarily a bad thing. 00:48:32 yeah. 00:50:09 *cky* sucks at Scheme, and knows it. :-( 00:50:40 I think there are deeper problems in the parenting system than in the education system, but anyway, that's a separate discussion. 00:50:56 .oO(the parenting "system"?) 00:51:24 (Don't try to take that remark too seriously.)Oo. 00:56:10 So, tell me: do I want to read this R7RS draft (I thought you were doing away with the `RnRS' thing?), or do I want to pretend that nothing's happening? 00:56:58 Riastradh: It's a much more pleasant read than R6RS, IMHO. 00:57:13 Well, it's presuambly more pleasant than a sharp stick in the eye, too... 00:57:29 :-) 00:58:38 There will be things that upset you, but it would be very useful for us if you complained about them. 00:58:51 In particular, the word "blob" appears as a deliberate lightning rod. 00:59:05 What's wrong with `blob'? 00:59:26 Theo de Raadt will tell you what's wrong with blobs. 00:59:28 Nothing, but many people already belong to the Bytevector, Byte-Vector, and Octet-Vector parties. 01:00:52 The charter asks us to be compatible in as much as makes sense with the R6RS, and in R6RS they're called "bytevector"s 01:01:10 Right, but does sticking with bytevector make sense? 01:01:20 I remember the whole library vs module discussion. 01:01:31 And how it was decided that module made more sense than library. 01:01:32 Well, `bytevector' is a silly word, but `byte vector', `octet vector', `u8vector', and `blob' are all reasonable. 01:01:50 Since our modules are different, a different module name makes sense. 01:02:02 And the storm is on, the lightning flashes, all the other changes slip by under the radar! 01:02:24 jcowan: Bikeshed sniping! 01:03:08 I actually read a draft standard (not Scheme) the other day that refers to the "bikeshedding property", with a footnote saying a new name was required. 01:03:17 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:03:21 -!- Lectus [~Frederico@189.104.250.44] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:36 I think we should call it "bike hutch" 01:03:46 after all, sheds technically aren't that common 01:03:48 *offby1* flees 01:04:01 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:04:04 *jcowan* sheds. 01:04:48 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:05:27 "Rins"? Scots now, are we? 01:06:21 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:07:17 BTW, am I wrong to think the Alvarez hypothesis is generally accepted now? 01:07:39 (oops, ww) 01:07:52 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:08:07 Riastradh: Seriously, if you find R5RS readable, I think you'll find R7RS quite readable; it's mostly the same thing. 01:09:03 Actually, that will make it harder for me to read the draft, because I'll accidentally skip over text that looks familiar. 01:10:26 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 01:10:51 Granted. I'd be happy to send you a diff with whatever options you like. 01:12:31 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:12:40 Riastradh: You can just skip to the "language changes" section. 01:14:51 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:16:30 `For each of the five division operators, there are three procedures defined as follows: 01:16:39 (/) ==> (values n_q n_r) 01:16:43 (-quotient) ==> n_q 01:16:46 (-remainder) ==> n_r 01:16:57 The remainder n_r...' 01:17:52 The line below defining the euclidean pair overflows into the right column. 01:18:14 The choice of variable names -- n_1, n_2, n_q, n_r -- is appalling... 01:18:28 Oh, I forgot, I was going to rewrite that to use Scheme notation instead of math anyway. 01:19:00 The names were just copying the existing R5RS quotient/remainder terminology. 01:19:10 I know. They're still appalling. 01:19:43 *offby1* is appalled 01:19:46 Can you make \( mean ( inside a string? That would be handy for Emacs... 01:19:49 I the point of the n_ prefix is to emphasize it's a natural number, according to the overall document naming conventions. 01:20:06 I know. They're still appalling! You could say `let n = n_1 and d = n_2'. 01:20:08 I think 01:20:29 aidalgol [~user@114-134-8-93.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 01:20:50 Strings are still mutable? Bletch. 01:20:55 PARTIAL-BLOB? Not SUBBLOB? 01:21:17 For PARTIAL-BLOB-COPY! it says `The value returned by COPY-BLOB! is unspecified.' 01:21:48 Where's LAZY? Promises are broken. 01:23:04 I wrote subblob to begin with and I decided that substring is a word and subblob isn't. It's a potential word, but it's not a word. 01:23:14 s/potential/well-formed potential 01:23:30 (BEGIN (VALUES 1 2) 3) is not guaranteed to work, according to the description of VALUES. `Except for continuations created by the CALL-WITH-VALUES procedure, all continuations take exactly one value.' 01:23:35 We had a long discussion about lazy. No one could provide a convincing enough argument that it was required. 01:23:46 But I'd very much like such an argument. 01:24:07 You can't straightforwardly write space-safe loops without it. 01:24:12 In retrospect I think it should be included simply as "the best we've come up with so far." 01:24:13 (involving promises) 01:24:38 Bletch, `binary ports' and `character ports'... 01:24:39 Riastradh: That was never proved. 01:24:59 foof, proving that you can write space-safe loops without it is not straightforward. Hence, what I said is true. 01:25:22 That's a logical fallacy. 01:25:49 I'm not making a logical argument. I'm making a practical argument. 01:26:29 If you ever figure out how to make space-safe loops work without a special LAZY primitive, you're free to define (LAZY x) = (DELAY (FORCE x)). Until then, LAZY solves a practical problem straightforwardly. 01:27:43 What's the point of CURRENT-JIFFY and JIFFIES-PER-SECOND? 01:27:50 Yes, I agree now. 01:28:03 No point, I want to remove them. 01:28:10 Sorry, gotta run. 01:31:39 Good, TRANSCRIPT-ON and TRANSCRIPT-OFF are gone. 01:33:07 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 01:35:22 So that subsecond timing can be made available to applications using exact integers. 01:40:14 I think the document should require what Clinger calls `safe for space complexity', not just proper tail recursion. 01:43:07 What is the operational distinction? Also, what does it mean to be safe for space complexity when nothing is defined about space? 01:44:06 The difference lies in whether lambda may close over unreferenced free variables. PTR permits it; SFSC forbids it. 01:45:11 (A little more precisely, an implementation with SFSC must be no worse in space complexity than the interpreter I_SFSC that Clinger gives in the paper. Likewise with PTR.) 01:45:11 saiko-chriskun [~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has joined #scheme 01:47:39 I'm not sure it makes sense for (let ((x (/ 0. 0.))) (eqv? x x)) to return false. 01:47:51 (assuming that the division doesn't trap) 01:48:20 The behavior of NaN is not particularly intuitive, but it is extremely standardized. For Scheme to standardize something else is not a win. 01:48:25 (A practical argument.) 01:48:30 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.209.73] has left #scheme 01:48:36 Extremely standardized? 01:49:01 By IEEE 754 and the nearly universal floating-point units that implement it. 01:49:35 Neither IEEE 754 nor any floating-point unit I've ever heard of says anything about the behaviour of EQV?. 01:49:45 In MIT Scheme, the expression gives true. 01:50:07 The behavior of EQV? depends on the behavior of =, and the behavior of = depends on 754. 01:50:19 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 01:51:03 It's the first relation that I'm calling into question. 01:52:44 That requires changing IEEE Scheme, and we have to provide clear and convincing evidence that IEEE is already broken to do that. 01:53:27 OK. Implementations disagree and haven't exploded. Obviously the standard is broken! 01:54:38 *poof* 02:02:33 *jcowan* wishes Chicken didn't insist on treating division by 0.0 as an exception. 02:03:55 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-143.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:04:25 jcowan: You can use (expt 1e10 1e10) to get infinity. 02:04:53 Not the point. 0.0 is not a mathematical zero, it's just a number smaller than the smallest expressible inexact number. 02:05:15 True. 02:05:15 The floating-point divide operator should be allowed to do its thing and return +inf.0 or +nan.0 as the case may be. 02:05:21 100% agree. 02:05:35 Deliberately catching 0 divisor is, IMHO, broken. 02:06:14 jcowan: Surely, you can do RFC 2119-style "SHOULD", right? Unless you want to force Chicken to change, in which case you can use MUST. ;-) 02:06:44 MUST is for people who write specs. When I'm writing a spec, I slather on the MUSTard with abandon. 02:06:49 :-D 02:07:07 But I asked Felix to make this change some years back, and he refused. 02:07:25 Did he have any logical reason as to why catching 0.0 is a good idea? 02:07:49 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:07:52 I admit I can't recall. 02:08:10 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:08:10 Perhaps I should try again, now that he is no longer the sole developer. 02:08:15 Indeed. 02:08:35 If that gets fixed, then there should be no barrier to specifying in R7RS that division should give sane results for all floating-point values. 02:08:45 (Sane, here, includes infinity and NaN.) 02:09:12 (But excludes exceptions, unless an implementation uses signalling NaNs, etc.) 02:09:21 Well, I still think it's necessary to allow for systems that can't represent them. 02:09:27 itty-bitty chips, notably. 02:09:32 Hmmmm. 02:15:02 It may be that 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-!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:51 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 14:25:33 Broa [~Broa@105.Red-88-27-236.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:33:07 -!- mao [~root@high.nig.gs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:33:16 mao [~root@high.nig.gs] has joined #scheme 14:35:43 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-129-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:40:26 -!- hiyuh [~hiyuh@KD113151162160.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has left #scheme 14:42:25 hi, i have to write a function that consumes a list of tokens and returns the corresponding sexpression (also as a list). therefor i need a stack for the parantheses i guess, but i don't quite know how to implement it. can someone help me please? 14:44:14 well, you never _need_ a stack if you have recursion 14:45:18 here is the task on nopaste: http://nopaste.php-q.net/7977 14:46:30 i don't find a way to start somehow 14:52:24 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 14:52:52 think about how the recursion in read-tokens-internal could mirror the structure of the s-expression 15:04:43 well, i have to check if the first element in the is a number or a symbol or a <. if it is a < i call a new function with a counter of open paranthesis. correct? 15:05:28 bipt [~bpt@user-0c8h24l.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 15:11:03 -!- wisey [~Steven@86.147.41.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:11:38 something along those lines. I'm not sure you need the counter, but I suppose it won't hurt. 15:31:29 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-207.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:31:31 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:31:36 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-207.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:33:31 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-174-121.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:34:25 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-174-121.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:35:40 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 15:44:50 jesusito [~user@237.pool85-49-248.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #scheme 15:44:56 -!- xvilka [~xvilka@ip-79-111-220-160.bb.netbynet.ru] has left #scheme 15:45:29 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 15:47:32 tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has joined #scheme 15:48:12 jrtayloriv [~jrtaylori@207-118-96-79.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #scheme 15:50:55 jesusito` [~user@50.pool85-54-73.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #scheme 15:51:23 -!- jesusito` [~user@50.pool85-54-73.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 15:51:26 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:51:32 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:11 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 15:52:31 -!- jesusito [~user@237.pool85-49-248.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:52:53 foof, typo, p. 58: under `Process Context Module', it says `The (SCHEME PROCESS-CONTEXT) module exports procedures for accessing with the program's calling context. ENVIRONMENT-VARIABLE ENVIRONMENT-VARIABLES COMMAND-LINE'. Presumably that should be `for accessing the process's context' and GET-ENVIRONMENT-VARIABLE and GET-ENVIRONMENT-VARIABLES. 15:53:30 Under `Multiple Values Module', it says CALL-WITH-VALUE instead of CALL-WITH-VALUES. 15:53:33 What's LOAD doing in here at all? 15:53:57 Under `Inexact Module', the tabulation is slightly wrong; NAN? has an extra space before it. 15:55:21 There's no OPEN-INPUT-BLOB or OPEN-OUTPUT-BLOB; that's a bug if you have binary ports at all. 15:55:43 masm [~masm@bl15-129-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 15:55:54 The index entry for #!FOLD-CASE looks funny. 15:58:10 If I run `./foo bar baz' in Unix, will (COMMAND-LINE) be ("./foo" "bar" "baz") or ("bar" "baz")? 15:58:46 djcb [~user@a88-114-89-247.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 15:59:17 Did anyone implement the buffering schemes used by ports? Character but not binary buffering? Has anyone used these in real programs? 16:01:04 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:01:35 The description of NAN? uses the absurd phrase `NaN numbers'. A NaN is not a number. If it is not a number, it can't be a number. 16:01:44 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:01:50 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:02:18 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:03:49 I think (modulo 1.234 1) should work. Alan Bawden would like (modulo 123 0) to give 123. 16:04:00 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-207.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:05:11 -!- mao [~root@high.nig.gs] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:08:17 In general, it'd be nice if (MODULO x n) gave the least nonnegative representative of x's canonical projection into R/nZ. But I guess you can't change its semantics like that. 16:22:09 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 16:34:26 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:39:40 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:44:19 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:46:48 zelig [~flavio@189.60.136.38] has joined #scheme 16:58:23 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:59:48 wisey [~Steven@host86-147-41-15.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:00:33 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:02:19 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 17:03:07 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:16:14 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:16:27 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:28:40 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:32:18 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 17:36:17 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 17:37:53 Or the representative closest to zero, rather, breaking ties by choosing the least positive representative; for (modulo -123 0) there is no nonnegative choice. 17:46:04 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:49:28 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:52:08 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 17:52:11 -!- Broa [~Broa@105.Red-88-27-236.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:53:30 saiko-chriskun [~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has joined #scheme 17:58:29 monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:01:51 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:02:40 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:02:43 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 18:04:00 Riastradh: It sounds like what you want is just the euclidean remainder. I don't think that's a sane default though, because most programmers are accustomed to (and expect) truncated division. 18:05:19 No. 18:06:58 I think the euclidean remainder is an eminently sane default, and I don't even know what truncated division is good for besides conforming to C99. But the euclidean remainder is not precisely what I'm talking about. 18:08:04 Of course, for nonnegative numerator and positive denominator, euclidean and truncated division agree. 18:08:30 What aspect did I gloss over? 18:09:03 Euclidean division has the property that 0 <= r < |d|. The MODULO I'm talking about does not have this property. 18:09:04 I don't think it's sensible to have the default form of division be dominated by the calculation of the remainder (rather than the other way around). 18:10:11 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:10:35 copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 18:10:35 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:10:35 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 18:10:39 The current definition, you mean? or the one you said would be nice? 18:12:14 What the R5RS calls MODULO has a better name now, FLOOR-REMAINDER, so when I say MODULO, I mean the operator for which (MODULO x n) gives the representative of x in R/nZ closest to zero, breaking ties by choosing the nonnegative option. 18:12:41 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 18:13:26 Ah, okay. I understand you now. 18:16:48 Do you know what truncated division with negative inputs is good for? 18:17:09 -!- zelig [~flavio@189.60.136.38] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:21:21 It gives consistent results when any argument is negated, which is usually closer to what I want than euclidean. 18:21:41 Euclidean division agrees with right shifting and gives useful vector indices. 18:23:22 What applications does that have, Obfuscate? 18:26:00 If working with bitmasks and most pointer arithmetic, I normally want truncated division (although euclidean is sometimes useful). 18:26:13 In most other cases, what I want is actually round-to-nearest. 18:26:24 Can you be more specific? 18:26:34 -!- zmv [~daniel@c934ad95.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:27:15 The native supported division on pretty much every architecture/platform is truncated division though, so adopting a less performant alternative when its advantages are debatable does not seem wise to me. 18:33:36 Adopt, schmadopt; the working groups decided to give clearer names to all the operations so that you don't have to flip through the manual every time you forget which is which between REMAINDER and MODULO. My remarks about MODULO earlier today were motivated only by mathematical prettiness. 18:38:52 In case you're interested, I added some different division variants to my language, and pasted a table with output and x86-64 asm implementation costs here: 18:38:55 http://pastebin.ca/2047490 18:40:29 The second form is by far my favorite as far as the raw math is concerned, as it makes working with balanced bases and space partitioning easy. 18:40:56 The second form being round/nearest. 18:41:58 It has a counterpart to the desirable anti-skew properties of round/even as well, in case one cares about statistics. 18:46:07 Note that the implementations are heavily-optimized, so the only real inefficiencies are llvm's poor instruction selection. 18:49:02 bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.14.186] has joined #scheme 18:49:19 can anyone help me about setting scheme repl on emacs-slime? 18:51:06 You can hang around here in case anyone knows, but you should probably ask in #emacs as well. 18:51:18 bsod1: I'm not sure it works directly. There is geiser, if you happen to use racket or guile 18:51:54 There's a slime mode for Chicken and I think scheme48 too 18:52:55 sjamaan: so which one should I install? scheme48 or Chicken? 18:53:03 That depends on the Scheme you want to use 18:53:34 Gee, did somebody make SLIME work with Scheme48 recently? 18:53:59 Riastradh: I kinda suspected it was unmaintained :) 18:58:14 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-147-41-15.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:59:34 lambdadaniel [~kvirc@71.138.132.156] has joined #scheme 19:00:25 Obfuscate, you didn't show the cycle counts or observed running times. How does rnear differ from reven? (Can you express it concisely in a human-readable language, or at least a mathematician-readable language, rather than amd64 assembly? I don't even see straightforwardly where the assembly code for them is.) 19:00:44 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.14.186] has left #scheme 19:01:04 It wouldn't surprise me if the division instruction in every one of the operators thoroughly dominated the running time. 19:04:14 I didn't post "benchmarks" because they're particularly misleading in this case: the div /does/ dominate the running time, with actual cycle costs varying between 15-40% slower than the naive truncated division, but it's hard to give an accurate figure because the pipelining is likely to be very different in any real code (ie., not just a loop that divides a million times). 19:05:56 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:06:14 rnear is round-to-nearest with tie-breaking towards zero. reven is the ieee round-to-neares with even tie-breaking mode (ie., floating-point default). 19:07:32 The functions are listed in order of appearance in the table, although I did botch the names. :( 19:08:32 SolarBoom [~Nurlan@109.127.15.22] has joined #scheme 19:09:06 hi, how do i run my scheme code, i have got mit scheme 19:09:30 HG` [~HG@p579F7895.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:10:17 -!- DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-45-234.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:13:42 Riastradh: Is that sufficient for understanding? or do I need to say more to make up for my, erm, transgressions. :) 19:15:23 freddie111 [~user@150.140.229.115] has joined #scheme 19:22:29 DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-74-3.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 19:25:48 -!- saiko-chriskun [~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:26:13 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-129-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:28:22 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:30:49 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-68.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:30:57 SolarBoom: man mit-scheme # could help 19:31:02 Obfuscate, yes, that's sufficient. I don't know what real applications there are for integer division with either round-to-nearest/ties-to-zero or round-to-nearest/ties-to-even. 19:31:20 SolarBoom: or perhaps mit-scheme --help 19:31:57 SolarBoom, run `mit-scheme' and type in your code, or put your code in a file foo.scm and type `(load "foo")', or start up Edwin with `mit-scheme --edwin --edit'. 19:32:29 -!- subtextfuge [~subtextfu@211.Red-79-159-71.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 19:32:41 This is already giving the man a fish. 19:34:12 Obfuscate, also, note that the code will usually have branches for different number representations. I doubt whether the time spent by the processor executing the extra instructions will overcome the time spent by the programmer flipping through the manual trying to remember which is which between REMAINDER and MODULO and then debugging the program when a negative input comes in and it turns out he wanted EUCLIDEAN-REMAINDER after all. 19:38:35 Riastradh: The even rounding is widely used in statistics, physics, finance, and pretty much any other code where values need to be accumulated with minimal error... making this happen despite varying fpu's is the source of a lot of grief for language implementers. 19:39:02 Round-to-nearest/ties-to-even is used with integer division? 19:39:28 subtextfuge [~subtextfu@211.Red-79-159-71.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:39:34 Yes, because integer division extends to fixed-point arithmetic. 19:39:43 OK. 19:40:05 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:41:01 I don't agree with your sentiments on euclidean division, but that's more of a religious issue than a practical one, imo. I tend to use whatever form is the most convenient (and so appreciate CL providing multiple clearly-named functions). 19:41:56 What sentiments? That it is guaranteed to give a vector index? That it agrees with right shifts? 19:42:04 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 19:42:58 No, your last message specifically addressed to me. ie., I don't think it any more correct as a default than truncation. 19:45:14 I already stated the use of round-to-nearest/zero, which is best suited to balanced bases (where it is the natural form of truncation) and partitioning schemes (where the zero tie-breaking minimizes migration). 19:46:41 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:50:01 I don't know what you're referring to. Space partitioning, as in computational geometry? 19:50:11 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:50:42 -!- ickabob [~ctpwwner@24-247-222-140.dhcp.klmz.mi.charter.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 19:53:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-36.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:54:06 Yeah, I mean space partitioning (I said this before, fwiw). 20:04:10 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 20:09:10 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:12:37 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:12:42 Perhaps you should propose a concise name for the round-to-nearest/ties-toward-zero operator pair to the Scheme working groups. 20:13:39 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 20:18:09 -!- DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-74-3.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:20:59 Broa [~Broa@105.Red-88-27-236.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:21:47 May as well (although, I don't actually use scheme that much these days). 20:23:29 -!- freddie111 [~user@150.140.229.115] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:26:27 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7895.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:27:39 -!- elly [debian-tor@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:27:39 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:27:39 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:27:39 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:28:13 -!- ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:28:33 ski [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 20:28:34 -!- bipt [~bpt@user-0c8h24l.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:28:55 -!- Broa [~Broa@105.Red-88-27-236.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:30:26 DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-41-45.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 20:30:48 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:40:09 bipt [~bpt@user-0c8h24l.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 20:40:21 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 20:42:22 Tasyne [~not4u@c-24-22-232-230.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:54:42 Broa [~Broa@105.Red-88-27-236.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:55:26 saiko-chriskun [~chris-kun@fsf/member/saiko-chriskun] has joined #scheme 21:00:59 ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:01:33 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfc37a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:01:43 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbed0f5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 21:03:51 Riastradh: there is no sense when i type load foo 21:04:37 femtoo [~femto@95-89-249-242-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 21:05:47 SolarBoom, you need to be a lot more specific. 21:05:59 In general, you need to specify (1) exactly what you typed, (2) exactly what you saw, and (3) exactly what you expected to see. 21:06:13 masm [~masm@bl15-129-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 21:06:54 i use mit scheme under windows vista, and i wanna run my code in scheme, i have no idea how to run 21:07:11 Unless you do, you might as well have told me that there is no sense when you frobbed the veeblefitzer, and you think it broke in the quetzlcoatl state because the zonfiggorter got confused by the cosmic ray that disrupted the swingerblange. 21:07:52 I don't know anything about Windows. When you launch MIT Scheme afresh, does it, by any chance, give you any instructions? 21:08:31 -!- femtooo [~femto@95-89-249-242-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:09:49 appamatto [~appamatto@li210-235.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 21:10:11 EbiDK [3e6b7ac3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.107.122.195] has joined #scheme 21:10:37 I'm thinking instructions of the form `Type ``C-h'' for help, or ``C-h t'' for a tutorial.' 21:10:52 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbed0f5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:11:02 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbecf10.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 21:11:48 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-249-242-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:39 Riastradh: thank you :) 21:22:41 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:23:31 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:29:44 redgirl [debian-tor@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 21:29:47 -!- DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-41-45.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:36:00 -!- redgirl is now known as elly 21:38:22 -!- SolarBoom [~Nurlan@109.127.15.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:42:38 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:43:03 DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-41-45.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 21:45:13 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:48:06 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 21:48:40 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:49:16 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:50:41 Nshag [~none@AClermont-Ferrand-551-1-76-211.w92-143.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 21:51:46 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:02:01 -!- mathk [~mathk@dispo-82-65-192-183.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 22:28:16 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 22:31:53 -!- EbiDK [3e6b7ac3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.107.122.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:47:29 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:48:18 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #scheme 22:50:07 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:14 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 22:56:41 I have a big favor to ask. If anyone has the "The 90 Minute Scheme to C Compiler" videos, I would appreciate if they could share them with me. 22:59:46 -!- DrDuck is now known as mop 23:15:38 -!- mop [~duck@216.186.151.63] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:17:57 tippenein [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:18:42 rien, that sounds interesting. Find the videos yet? 23:18:44 -!- Nshag [~none@AClermont-Ferrand-551-1-76-211.w92-143.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 23:18:59 rien: check here http://programming-musings.org/2009/12/23/scheme-lectures-mostly/ 23:19:07 appamatto: yes, on google videos only, no download links though, I'm cooking something up with greasemonkey 23:19:22 ok you found it :) 23:19:32 tizoc: yep, they link to 1 of the two google videos there 23:19:36 sh_videos 23:19:47 oops, rien: try get_flash_videos 23:19:55 google videos will be brought down April 29th, all videos will be deleted 23:19:58 I think it supports Google Video 23:20:04 I'll google for that 23:20:21 I use it all the time for youtube (refuse to use flash) 23:21:40 Not sure why they wouldn't roll GV videos into YouTube 23:22:23 appamatto: me neither, but they won't, they're calling out for people to save their videos themselves if they want to 23:22:25 I've been using cclive, which works fairly well for a number of video sites. 23:23:35 Obfuscate, does that support live viewing as well? 23:23:44 get_flash_videos is basically fetch-only 23:25:34 appamatto: I don't think it does anymore: it used to allow streaming, but it didn't work consistently, so now I just have an alias that writes to /tmp and launches mplayer. 23:26:07 the problem is that GV changed its code so that the path to the .flv file is generated by javascript, I think 23:26:51 rien, just tried it with g_f_v, and it started the DL okay 23:26:59 can't finish because I'm at Borders :p 23:27:05 appamatto: hmm good to know :) 23:27:07 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 23:27:09 lol 23:27:15 Borders rocks 23:27:21 Riastradh: Thanks for the comments! 23:27:59 Re: the I/O system, it's basically Gambit. I fought before, and will re-open the issue to keep binary and character points disjoint. 23:42:01 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:44:10 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 23:45:58 Frankly I think the whole I/O nonsense has to be thrown out and redesigned from the ground up. 23:46:55 monads, that's the ticket. 23:47:00 (Nobody in the Scheme world has a reasonable answer to it -- not MIT Scheme, not Scheme48, not Racket.) 23:47:07 (Not Gambit either.) 23:48:05 Monads are totally a red herring... 23:48:19 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-173046.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:49:19 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:49:33 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:51:03 wes__ [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 23:51:54 -!- wes__ [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52:30 -!- Broa [~Broa@105.Red-88-27-236.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:53:17 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:53:54 Broa [~Broa@105.Red-88-27-236.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:54:41 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 23:56:07 Agreed, but that redesign work needs to be implemented and used for a while before we could consider standardizing it. 23:57:08 Oh, fmt 0.8 is out: http://synthcode.com/scheme/fmt/ 23:57:44 Riastradh: in which way would you redesign Scheme's IO?