00:01:39 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:18:45 -!- jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:19:08 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:19:41 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 00:21:25 tauntaun [~Antoninus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:22:16 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 00:24:31 -!- nteon [~nteon@204.28.122.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:26:40 -!- tauntaun [~Antoninus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:37:59 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:39:04 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 00:46:02 i had to do a little java today and thought to myself, "hmm: how can i create an anonymous method?" 00:46:50 sure enough, Method is declared public final; it's bizarre to me how something as natural as lambda has been forbidden by the enterprise diminu-gods. 00:47:11 (and no constructor) 00:53:46 The usual way to make an anonymous method is to make an anonymous class that implements an interface with the signature you want. 00:54:04 If your method takes no arguments, there's an interface you can already use, Callable. 00:54:24 Sadly, that's the closest thing you'll find to lambdas this side of Java 7. 00:57:14 klutometis: Here's some code I wrote for work that used Callables to simulate thunks for use in implementing...DELAY and FORCE in Java. 00:57:22 http://codepad.org/GjtbnOeq 00:58:47 (Note: Callable and Supplier both do the same thing, except that Callable "throws Exception" and Supplier does not.) 00:59:19 Personally I'm not a fan of checked exceptions, so I use the Supplier version more. But at work, we use checked exceptions a lot, so. 01:00:01 nalaginrut [~nalaginru@183.15.160.138] has joined #scheme 01:02:06 cky: oh, sweet; that's pretty clever. it tried to follow the interface stack up from Method to see if there was anything i could class-anonymize; but i wouldn't have found callable that way, anyway. 01:02:41 Indeed. "Method" is barking up the wrong tree (as is anything involving reflection), unfortunately. :-( 01:03:08 Feel free to use that code. I got permission from work a while ago to try to submit that to Guava, but I haven't got around to it yet. 01:03:26 fantastic; thanks, cky. 01:03:32 My pleasure. :-) 01:04:32 cky: regarding java 7, btw, what's the deal with that? i've been hearing about closures being on-and-off again for some time. 01:04:55 Well, it's been a hot debate for years, but in the end they're going to implement a simplified lambda thingy in Java 7, last I heard. 01:05:28 http://openjdk.java.net/projects/lambda/ seems to be what it'll look like. 01:05:49 And, it looks like (from that page) it'll appear in Java 8, not Java 7. 01:05:55 I guess they decided it was too much of a biggie after all. 01:07:11 There's a whole resources page about Java closures at http://www.javac.info/ too. 01:07:53 ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-71-170-15-148.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:11:44 cky: interesting. looks like invokedynamic got delayed, too (); which means that clojure and the like won't be doing TCO anytime soon, either. 01:12:12 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 01:12:35 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 01:15:50 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 01:16:24 klutometis: Yipes! 01:16:57 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:17:17 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:57 klutometis: Mind you, I didn't get the impression that Clojure wanted to support TCO via any means other than RECUR, anyway. 01:19:09 Of course, RECUR's weakness compared to, say, named LETs in Scheme, is that RECUR only jumps to the innermost LOOP, whereas you can have nested named LETs and you can successfully jump to an outer one. 01:30:14 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-65.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:33:21 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-65.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:37:14 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03:25:14 frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 03:25:14 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-76-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:32:15 -!- frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:33:08 rudybot: seen duncanm 03:33:08 *offby1: duncanm was seen quitting in/on a-chinaman.com twenty-five minutes ago, saying "*.net *.split", and then duncanm was seen joining in/on #scheme fourteen minutes ago 03:33:20 offby1: no; been meaning to, never got around to it. 03:33:26 rudybot is like a geiger counter for scheme hackers 03:33:38 klutometis: don't get your hand close to his mouth 03:33:39 maybe someday some worthwhile innovation will occur to me (chicken 4, say) 03:37:06 -!- Fare [~Fare@64.119.159.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:51:32 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:10:28 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:15:45 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 04:25:20 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:48:07 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:52:18 i am writing some code and i am tempted to use a 3 level nested list, but it seems kind of crazy to do such a thing, very hard to decipher the actual structure used 04:52:43 is there some nice way of naming fields so that its more sensical? 04:53:55 reading this now.. http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-9/srfi-9.html 04:54:43 -!- zbigniew_ is now known as zbigniew 04:58:22 rrenaud: yeah, srfi-9 isn't bad; which scheme are you using? 04:59:00 well, so after bitching to my prof about r5rs kind of sucking, he let us switch to racket 04:59:50 so right now all my code was ported from racket to r5rs, but i have the option of using racket (and i guess r5rs compat code will just work in racket, but not vice versa?) 05:01:26 rrenaud: man, r5rs is like dactylic hexameter: you should cut your teeth on constraint before you get all decadent with #lang racket. 05:01:46 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:01:58 i don't know, i am the kind of dude who likes to use programming languages to solve problems ;P 05:02:41 are you solving real problems in class, or are they playschool problems? 05:02:44 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@187.112.162.54] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 05:03:05 to be fair, the problem i am solving is actually reasonable difficult 05:03:23 i've written 150 lines of (possibly bad) scheme, and i don't think i am even halfway done 05:03:30 oh, good; well, then, no sense artificially constraining yourself. though the satisfaction is greater ;) 05:03:36 what's the problem, btw? 05:03:53 although some of this is reimplementing stuff like count, filter, and sort when i ported from racket to r5rs 05:04:08 essentially it's implement the alg in this paper 05:04:10 http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/Publications/Papers/2000067.pdf 05:04:42 the prof has contrained us to not using mutating functions in any dialect 05:04:51 which is definitely somewhat of a burden on my mind 05:05:28 i am comfortable chucking around map() and lambda() from some a lot of exposure to python, but i am still pretty used to imperative programming 05:05:32 oh, nice; looks sufficiently interesting. 05:05:46 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-71-170-15-148.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:06:08 the no-mutation constraint is a little artificial, of course; at some point you're mutating bits. i wonder what he thinks of hash tables? 05:06:24 i mean, the constraint is somewhat academic 05:06:32 and i think he wants us to learn that yes, sometimes mutation is good 05:07:49 the point being, though, since mutation is unavoidable at some level; what's the cutoff? do functional interfaces to mutational hashtables count as mutation? 05:08:28 yeah, i don't know, the whole immutable hash makes O(log(n)) lookups thing had me a bit baffled 05:08:44 but that was 2 or 3 days ago, i am kind of over it 05:09:18 O(log(n)) as opposed to O(1)? 05:09:23 yeah 05:09:26 weird 05:10:04 http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/hashtables.html 05:13:19 oh, i see; immutable maps appear to be implemented as trees (at least in scala): . 05:14:00 yeah, it's just strange to call it a hash 05:14:18 but i've since learned that it makes a hash and uses the hash to give an order on the keys/get a fast compare func 05:15:35 it seems the most confusing part is "immutable". 05:15:58 "pure" might be a better word for this, i think. 05:17:04 ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-71-170-15-148.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:19:28 nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 05:23:41 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 05:27:44 -!- bokr [~eduska@109.110.54.101] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:30:23 -!- DrDuck [~duck@216.186.151.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:53:40 stis [~AndChat@host-90-235-15-84.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined 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[~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-65.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 08:00:18 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-65.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 08:03:57 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:12:08 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 08:14:43 is there a 64bit scheme? 08:19:44 dzhus [~sphinx@95-25-204-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 08:22:16 There are a number of Schemes which run on 64-bit systems. 08:24:13 rexim [~rexim@91.204.184.177] has joined #scheme 08:24:39 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:31:09 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:31:53 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-65.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:32:20 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-164.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 08:32:20 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-164.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 08:33:11 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-208.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:35:20 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-65.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:39:56 *fds* fires up a REPL for the first time in a week or two. 08:46:57 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:50:58 old repl never crashed? 08:54:55 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 08:56:02 No, I've been busy moving myself between countries and stuff 08:56:10 So I haven't written any Scheme 08:56:51 :o 09:09:18 does anyone have a copy of scribble-mode.el? 09:10:26 or rather, scribble.el? 09:11:00 I don't want to run a script which automatically modifies my .emacs. 09:19:32 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-208.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:23:24 -!- stis [~AndChat@host-90-235-15-84.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] 09:29:02 Somelauw [~laurent@unaffiliated/somelauw] has joined #scheme 09:34:51 kuribas 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for Emacs)] 11:42:43 DrDuck [~duck@216.186.151.63] has joined #scheme 11:45:42 masm [~masm@bl15-76-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 11:49:39 foocraft [~dsc@SMSADLER.wv.qatar.cmu.edu] has joined #scheme 11:59:16 -!- foocraft [~dsc@SMSADLER.wv.qatar.cmu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:52 tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has joined #scheme 12:31:31 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32:04 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 12:53:54 -!- DrDuck [~duck@216.186.151.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:56:14 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 12:56:15 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:56:57 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 12:59:27 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:23 foof: sudo chattr +i ~/.emacs 13:11:38 (Assuming Linux, on an ext2-based filesystem.) 13:12:05 (ext3 and ext4 are both ext2-based, for the avoidance of doubt. :-P) 13:12:38 -!- tonyg [~tonyg@navarone.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:12:45 After that, I can super-duper guarantee you that nobody will be modifying your .emacs file. 13:12:51 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:13:13 -!- stamourv [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:13:16 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 13:13:20 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:13:20 -!- samth [~samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:13:35 -!- ada2358 [~ada2358@jumpbug.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:22:49 foof, I'm interested in linux in particular where scsh doesn't run on the 64bit but does on the 32bit 13:23:22 (did ask in scsh, it's pretty silent) 13:25:27 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:26:42 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:26:42 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:26:42 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 13:30:27 JuanDaugherty: Ask the wrong question, get the wrong answer. :-) 13:30:36 JuanDaugherty: scsh is based on an ancient version of Scheme48. 13:30:47 JuanDaugherty: The most recent version of Scheme48 supports 64-bit. 13:31:00 ah, thx cky 13:31:13 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-cjphtqmgcqoawahu] has joined #scheme 13:31:20 If you want to port scsh to the latest version of Scheme48, please do. :-) 13:31:37 i'm pulling the mercurial repo now 13:31:43 *nods* 13:32:22 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-cjphtqmgcqoawahu] has left #scheme 13:39:51 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-71-170-15-148.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:42:57 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 14:02:41 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:08:30 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:09:13 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:09:22 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:15 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:14:15 samth [~samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:14:20 BW^- [~Miranda@bl7-3-208.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 14:14:47 i have a disk-stored u8vector (i.e. a file) whose content i want to ensure it remains intact even across change operations that crash 14:14:59 => i want to be able to rewind it to earlier versions anytime 14:15:16 one way would be to have an rsync backup all the time on it. though this would not be atomic from write point of view 14:15:24 another would be some fancy versioning FS 14:15:38 and another variant would be to have a Scheme library that provides the versioning functionality in a performant way 14:15:52 are you aware of any Scheme lib for this, or/and suitable FS implementation? 14:19:18 aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:24:01 mmc1 [~michal@85.90.76.66] has joined #scheme 14:24:46 -!- mmc1 [~michal@85.90.76.66] has quit [Client Quit] 14:25:05 mmc1 [~michal@85.90.76.66] has joined #scheme 14:29:05 -!- mmc1 [~michal@85.90.76.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:31:40 femtoo [~femto@95-89-249-242-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 14:33:11 -!- Deck` [~hypo@109-184-39-191.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:33:40 Deck` [~hypo@109-184-39-191.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #scheme 14:35:06 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 14:35:06 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 14:35:06 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 14:35:35 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.97.37] has joined #scheme 14:35:39 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.97.37] has quit [Changing host] 14:35:39 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 14:38:02 -!- rexim [~rexim@91.204.184.177] has quit [Quit:    ] 14:38:09 myu2 [~myu2@v051158.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 14:38:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-241.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:39:51 stis [~AndChat@host-95-194-24-231.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 14:40:47 -!- LN^^ is now known as LN^off 14:40:54 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #scheme 14:42:17 BW^-: rsync isn't atomic?! :-O 14:42:22 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 14:42:26 BW^-: OS based solutions are iffy, unless you're using a journaled file system. 14:43:00 BW^-: you can implement a journal yourself: write first a change record in a journal file, then update the primary file. 14:43:26 BW^-: when recovering, you check that the records in the journal are in the primary file, or you update it again. 14:43:43 What does journalling at the file system level have to do with it? (How does using a journalled file system make `OS-based solutions' less `iffy'?) 14:44:09 Riastradh: well, it depends on the level of the "crash". 14:44:27 Elaborate? 14:44:51 Journaled file systems help when it's the OS that crashes. 14:45:05 `Help'? 14:45:20 Yes. The data is either written or not, but not half written. 14:45:29 But if it's the application that crashes, you have to deal with the atomicity yourself. 14:46:39 After fsck on a non-journalled file system, the data are not supposed to be half-written either. 14:47:53 Well, it's more complex. At the file system level, they distinguish data and meta-data. fsck ensures that the meta-data is correct. There are options to journalize only the meta-data. Of course, you want to journalize both, from the application point of view. 14:48:50 It's more complex in that the ways that all the file systems out there are broken is full of nuances, sure. But adding journalling to a file system generally adds no integrity guarantees. 14:49:58 I'd expect to get the guarantee, that an atomic write will be either written or not, but not half written. 14:50:00 It can make writing to a file system faster, because writes to the journal can be batched up and writes to the rest of the file system can safely happen asynchronously; and after a crash, replaying the journal is faster than fsck. 14:50:35 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:51:06 frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 14:51:45 Riastradh: Many programs are too lazy to fsync sufficiently frequently to provide the same integrity guarantees. Of course, who knows whether programs that fail to fsync have any integrity guarantees with journalled filesystems. 14:52:05 fsync is a red herring. 14:52:13 Journalling in general provides no additional integrity guarantees over fsck. 14:52:44 It makes recovering from a crash, and sometimes writing to a file system, faster. 14:53:08 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-98.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 14:54:39 If you didn't fsync, you aren't guaranteed that your data hit the spinning magnetic platters, whether or not your file system uses a journal. If you overwrite an existing file, rather than write-to-temporary/rename-to-permanent, whether your file system uses a journal or not, you have no guarantees about what might be in your file. 14:55:40 Indeed. 14:55:42 -!- frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:56:16 In some cases, adding journalling to a non-journalled file system gave *worse* integrity guarantees than the original file system (until enough people beat the file system developers over the head -- although I'm not sure it's actually fixed). This happened with ext2 -> ext3/ext4. 14:57:40 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 14:57:53 By the way, if you want any integrity guarantees of your file system's design to mean anything in practice, you must either make sure your disk does not lie to you, or disable its write cache, or give up if you can't do either of those. 14:57:53 I still avoid ext4 like the plague. I'd like to think that ext3's problems are ironed out, but I can't be sure. 14:58:34 Agree about hardware write cache. 14:59:03 If your disk lies to you and reorders writes as it pleases, then you have no way to know what writes actually hit the disk, and no amount of fsck or journalling can recover from a power failure. 14:59:16 (Though decent systems have a battery-backed write cache so that even in catastrophic circumstances, the data still has a chance to hit the disk. But even there, a 100% guarantee is impossible.) 14:59:53 Yeah, if the write are reordered, then basically all the integrity guarantees fly out the window. 14:59:59 s/write/writes/ 15:00:32 Decent systems have tagged queueing and barrier commands. 15:00:47 True. 15:09:59 -!- Deck` [~hypo@109-184-39-191.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:38 -!- nalaginrut [~nalaginru@183.15.160.138] has quit [Quit: ] 15:20:11 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:24:41 -!- rasterba_ [~rasterbar@50.12.160.139] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24:43 ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has joined #scheme 15:28:32 -!- BW^- [~Miranda@bl7-3-208.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:30:26 hiyuh [~hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:31:11 micro [~micro@www.bway.net] has joined #scheme 15:32:07 stamourv [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:41:11 hkr [~hkr@77.63.116.6] has joined #scheme 15:43:13 jproctor_ [~quassel@c-98-192-77-212.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:44:55 -!- aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 15:45:00 -!- jproctor_ [~quassel@c-98-192-77-212.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 15:54:41 -!- hkr [~hkr@77.63.116.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55:30 Glav [~Glav@unaffiliated/glav] has joined #scheme 15:57:46 aisa [~aisa@206.169.60.164] has joined #scheme 15:58:38 -!- nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:52 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:59:28 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 15:59:50 Harrold [~quassel@dhcp-101-103.hpsc-staff.carleton.ca] has joined #scheme 16:00:54 kuribas [~user@dD576352A.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 16:01:57 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-76-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:06:27 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:00 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:10:21 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 16:14:52 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:16:12 masm [~masm@bl15-76-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 16:17:31 BW^- [~Miranda@bl7-3-208.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 16:17:43 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:19:43 DrDuck [~duck@146.229.118.9] has joined #scheme 16:24:16 Harrold_ [~quassel@134.117.254.248] has joined #scheme 16:24:46 -!- Harrold [~quassel@dhcp-101-103.hpsc-staff.carleton.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:30:35 pjb,riastradh,cky: thank you for your reflections. hmmm. 16:30:51 so i'm in an environment where i know there will never be a power failure (there's battery backup etc) 16:31:11 yes indeed i could implement some kind of journalling mechanism myself.. 16:31:22 i have a journal file which contains all the writes that were made in addition to a snapshot 16:31:32 and then i just make snapshots every now and then.. sth like that 16:32:06 basically what i don't want to have is an inconsistent file 16:32:30 so i need a mechanism to protect from if the harddrive or other parts of the system write to disc what i wrote during the last minute but keep caching what i wrote 2mins ago 16:32:49 cky: what's the prob with ext4, too undeveloped as of yet? 16:33:01 hmm 16:33:21 i could have some kind of sync command in the journal 16:33:45 indeed the fact that there's a sync command written into the journal file, does (because of write caching things) not mean that all data since the last sync command were actually written in there 16:33:46 BUT 16:34:16 if after every sync command i do a complete fsync to the disk, then at least i know that all data that was written until the PREVIOUS sync command in the journal, was written :D 16:34:40 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 16:35:02 i.e. every X min or Y MB of writes, into the journal file i write a sync command, and after writing it i fsync to disk 16:36:17 this way i know that if i recover from a computer crash, then if I find in the journal file the N:th sync command, then I know I have data integrity up to the N-1:th sync command. (presuming the harddrive medium isn't broken of course - it should be bc there's double-raid, i could also plug in checksum functionality) 16:36:30 this might be some work to implement though, eh 16:36:35 pjb,riastradh,cky: ideas? :) 16:40:00 tauntaun [~Antoninus@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 16:40:09 riastradh: tagged queuing and barrier commands? 16:41:42 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-6-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:42:01 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-6-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:10 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-6-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:42:47 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #scheme 16:52:13 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 16:54:27 -!- hiyuh [~hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:54:50 jproctor_ [~jproctor@c-98-192-77-212.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:56:58 pjb(,riastradh,cky): so basically you would give up the idea of having the OS make the journalling, altogether? 17:00:03 -!- aisa [~aisa@206.169.60.164] has quit [Quit: aisa] 17:03:57 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:07:27 -!- githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:15 aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:10:23 -!- tauntaun [~Antoninus@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:10:58 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:12:39 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 17:18:43 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 17:30:03 mmc1 [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 17:32:00 -!- DrDuck [~duck@146.229.118.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:33:39 paperkettles [~chris@2406:a000:f005:1f00:226:bbff:fe0c:b57f] has joined #scheme 17:33:56 -!- paperkettles [~chris@2406:a000:f005:1f00:226:bbff:fe0c:b57f] has quit [Client Quit] 17:36:42 tupi__ [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 17:39:40 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:20 -!- mmc1 [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:47:05 pjb,riastradh,cky: if i take care to fsync the file at regular intervals, shouldn't ext3's journalling mechanism deliver well for this? 17:47:25 i'm thinking about the alternative solution - seems like it'd be a lot of coding, and i quite don't find any other libraries that do this 17:52:12 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:16 foocraft [~dsc@SMSADLER.wv.qatar.cmu.edu] has joined #scheme 18:08:06 BW^-, I didn't suggest giving up journalling. It's a conceptually straightforward way to improve performance by admitting greater asynchrony and concurrency (except for writing journal -- I have never heard of journalling systems with anything but a single serial journal) and obviating the need for fsck. 18:09:26 hmhm.. so how do i do this now.. 18:10:11 riastradh: do you see any particularly suitable way to ensure that my sqlite WAL database files in a linux environment should never became corrupt, in the event of an app/os crash - what write method to use for the files, what filesystem to use under 18:10:28 But taking ext2 and adding journalling, or taking ufs/ffs and adding journalling, &c., generally adds no integrity guarantees beyond what the file system and fsck already gave you. 18:10:49 right - i get your points above about that a filesystem never can ensure file integrity, in case the app crashes 18:11:12 Hmm, that's not quite what I said. 18:11:16 because of this i believe i need either versioning of my database files (so i can rewind them to the last restore point at will), or going with some kind of functional storage method 18:11:59 Suppose you have a file system such as ext2 or ffs which provides some set of guarantees about file integrity in the case of a crash at any time (assuming the crash is not caused by a bug in the file system; assume the implementation of the file system's theory is sound). 18:12:45 nteon [~nteon@c-98-210-195-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:13:16 Now, instead of writing (data or metadata) updates to the file system immediately, you write those to a journal instead with a flag saying `not committed'. Later (perhaps immediately; perhaps asynchronously) a daemon goes through the journal and commits the writes to disk, replacing the `not committed' flag by `committed' once the disk has assured the operating system that the write was actually committed to physical media. 18:14:04 Generally, this journalled variation of your existing file system will have no additional integrity guarantees, if your original file system was designed like ext2 or ffs so that fsck could recover from a crash at any time. 18:15:12 Using a journal does not imply that you don't need to fsync if you want to be guaranteed that the data are on permanent storage, or that you don't need to write-to-temporary/rename-to-permanent if you want to atomically replace a file, or that you don't need to disable the write cache if your disk lies to you. 18:15:55 (So far I have been talking only about the Unix file interface implemented by a file system such as ext2 or ffs.) 18:17:02 Oh, by the way, fsync often isn't enough: on Linux, you also need to use sync_file_range; on NetBSD and AIX, fsync_range; on Mac OS X, fcntl(F_FULLFSYNC); and I don't know what on other systems. Go figure. 18:17:25 -!- Glav [~Glav@unaffiliated/glav] has quit [Quit: (let ((call/cc (call/cc call/cc))) (call/cc call/cc))] 18:18:16 right 18:18:30 so now we've somehow covered what the journaling filesystems generally do 18:19:02 now, basically what i want to ensure safety against, is if at point T in time, my app/the OS crashes while i'm right in a write operation to sqlite database files A, B and C that i happen to work with right nwo 18:19:05 As for sqlite3, I think drh has put more effort into its ACID properties than you need to worry about -- *provided* that the combination of {disk, file system} is not broken (e.g., the disk doesn't lie, and the file system provides reasonable guarantees). 18:19:44 Possibly even if the file system provides only almost-reasonable guarantees. 18:20:00 in a perfect scenario, what i would want on restore is to know that all my db:s A, B and C are rewinded to the last version of their files, when a complete disc sync was made successfully for all of them 18:20:29 (i.e. I know i'm now working with intact A, B & C databases for the point in time as soon before T as can possibly be done) 18:20:35 Oh, you have multiple separate databases, not just multiple tables in one database? 18:20:57 that's right, hm, maybe i should put together the databases A, B & C into one for this reason 18:21:13 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-164.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:21:22 i wouldn't like to do that though because potentially they become VERY large and vacuuming them would take Enormous amounts of time if i put them together 18:21:30 (vacuum = defragment/'compress') 18:21:31 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C598D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:21:41 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-164.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:22:08 hm.. so what would the solution be, implement my own versioning feature? (hope not!) use a versioning filesystem.. does that exist, eh? 18:23:19 i can always just fsync over the database files to an external media every 24hrs/when is most suitable, though if there would be a cheap way to even higher integrity/data security it'd be great of course 18:23:33 (fsync when the respective database is close anyhow etc) 18:24:12 Let sqlite3 handle fsyncing. 18:25:00 and what if it crashes right during such an operation..? 18:25:02 As for atomic (or, more generally, ACID) updates to multiple sqlite3 databases, I don't know -- I haven't thought about that. I don't know whether there is an easy way to keep multiple versions of an sqlite3 database around. 18:25:26 ...er. 18:25:34 `fsync over the database files to an external medi[um]'? 18:25:39 You're not confusing fsync with rsync, are you? 18:25:40 yes 18:25:44 ah no no 18:25:55 ooops.. yes above i was 18:26:11 'fsync over the database files to an external... ' yes rsync i meant indeed 18:26:22 what i'm looking for is that there is always the possibility of database file corruption 18:26:45 -!- Harrold_ [~quassel@134.117.254.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:27:03 fsync is supposed to (and fsync together with sync_file_range or fsync_range or fcntl(F_FULLFSYNC) does) not return until, to the best of the operating system's ability, all data and metadata associated with the file have been forced onto permanent storage. 18:27:05 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-164.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:27:12 what if the app that uses sqlite3 SIGSEGV:s at some point, and so on - there's always this possibility there - can anything be done to work around it, or is regular backups the only way 18:28:40 hmm - there's a 'online backup API' in sqlite, perhaps i could use it to make somehow streaming backups (http://sqlite.org/backup.html), checking 18:29:47 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-164.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:30:03 ..nope, cannot be used, its job is to copy all the database all the time. 18:31:33 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #scheme 18:31:56 riastradh: yes, full fsyncing (F_FULLFSYNC etc) at regular intervals provides the security that all write():s to files have been synced to disk, this is a great basic security. now, is there anything we can do for 'higher-level' causes to database file corruption, such as a SIGSEGV right in the middle of sqlite3 doing a sequence of writes to key places in the db file? 18:32:30 its WAL interface is in place to minimize that kind of operations, but they still happen continuously and a SIGSEGV could happen then 18:32:42 BW^-: I believe SQLite should be resilient to that---SIGSEGV isn't your only trouble, but power outages, etc. 18:33:04 If you write garbage to your database, you can lose. 18:33:08 BW^-: Interruptions can happen for _many_ uncontrollable reasons. 18:33:11 i saw sqlite3 db files broken before. :) luckily they were small and unimportant 18:33:18 cky: mm 18:33:31 so what do, is there any insurance here except regular rsyncs to external media? 18:33:44 BW^-: You should always do regular backups, anywy. 18:33:50 mm 18:33:58 some kind of file versioning system would do it.. though i don't know of any 18:34:07 BW^-: Otherwise, Journalspace can happen to you. 18:34:13 just a versioning library would do it, and i don't know of any 18:34:17 BW^-: And you do not want that to happen to you. 18:34:39 BW^-: Journalspace was this company that thought RAID was enough to prevent data loss, without further backups. 18:34:53 BW^-: It was understood that a rogue (ex-)employee went and wiped all the data. 18:35:04 BW^-: RAID can't save you from that. Nor can ACID guarantees, etc. 18:36:22 right 18:36:51 so indeed i need to make continuous rsyncs/alike to external media. but what about more fine-grained safety? 18:37:14 some kind of versioning could help for that, couldn't it? 18:37:21 [database file] versioning 18:38:00 so i can rewrite all until the last fopen or alike, for a particular file 18:38:19 (rewind - not rewrite) 18:39:39 That would help, but if sqlite3 doesn't do it for you, then you would need it to work at the file system layer, and all the snapshotting Unix file systems I'm familiar with have only heavyweight, file-system-wide snapshots, not snapshots of individual files, as far as I know. 18:40:12 riastradh: ah.. hm.. so this points in turn to that i'd need an application-level versioning tool to do this 18:40:54 wouldn't you just use a better database? 18:42:10 -!- foocraft [~dsc@SMSADLER.wv.qatar.cmu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:42:15 incandenza: mysql, postgresql and the others suffer from this prob also, don't they? 18:42:29 here's a tool, http://wayback.sourceforge.net/ - implemented as a FUSE FS atop linux 18:42:38 although I don't see why sqlite doesn't do what you want: http://www.sqlite.org/transactional.html 18:43:24 frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 18:44:56 -!- rrenaud [~rrenaud@cpe-66-108-112-118.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 18:51:18 -!- frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:52:40 frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 18:57:59 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:58:53 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 19:02:23 -!- frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:02:52 githogori [~githogori@216.207.36.222] has joined #scheme 19:03:41 frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 19:08:32 -!- LN^off is now known as LN^^ 19:12:53 -!- frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:16:15 -!- stis [~AndChat@host-95-194-24-231.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] 19:18:58 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 19:19:30 mmc1 [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 19:19:34 frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 19:22:36 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:28:03 -!- frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:28:46 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 19:29:49 frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 19:37:58 -!- frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:40:24 frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 19:41:02 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #scheme 19:47:17 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:08 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-249-242-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:49:38 -!- frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:50:08 ysph [~user@75-143-85-15.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #scheme 19:50:56 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:54:29 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 19:55:06 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:55:59 frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 20:03:03 -!- frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:05:36 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 20:09:30 -!- askhader [~askhader@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:12:29 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v051158.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:02 Glav [~Glav@unaffiliated/glav] has joined #scheme 20:19:29 frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 20:20:40 -!- Glav [~Glav@unaffiliated/glav] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:23:51 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 20:25:16 Glav [~Glav@unaffiliated/glav] has joined #scheme 20:26:37 Riastradh: is it ok if I add (license "Public Domain") to your syn-param egg's .meta file and release a new version? Or do you prefer to do that? Or you don't want that? :-) 20:28:43 -!- frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:31:24 stis [~AndChat@host-95-194-24-231.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 20:31:32 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C598D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:37 -!- stis [~AndChat@host-95-194-24-231.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:47 frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 20:41:11 stis [~AndChat@host-95-194-120-63.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 20:42:36 BW^-: 1. if you're running Linux, use LVM to make snapshots of the partitions then mount those and copy the files with rsync/whatever from the snapshot mount. 20:42:44 2. to avoid breaking on OS crashes, run Linux on the bare machine if possible, VM solutions may break guarantees. 20:43:12 tonyg [~tonyg@navarone.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 20:43:43 3. for transactions across databases find out whether sqlite offers something, otherwise you'll have to put everything in one or structure your changes in a way that allows recovery (maybe doing your own logging, by writing into one of the dbs) 20:43:52 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-167-52.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43:58 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-6-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:44:17 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #scheme 20:45:52 pothos [~pothos@111-240-172-26.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 20:46:24 mario-goulart: I would argue that software shouldn't be released under a public domain license (even if the author's intent is to give users freedom). 20:46:46 Not that I'm the author or a lawyer though. 20:48:13 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-172-26.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:48:31 -!- BW^- [~Miranda@bl7-3-208.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 20:48:33 -!- frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:48:36 pothos [~pothos@111-240-172-26.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 20:49:08 Glav: ok. Thanks for your input. 20:49:13 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:54:44 frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 20:56:57 Glav: Do you prefer a similar licence like CC0 or WTFPL, then? 20:57:04 skeptical_p [~rononovsk@bzq-109-64-185-118.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 20:59:13 Harrold [~quassel@70.50.218.37] has joined #scheme 21:00:16 cky: I haven't read them so I'm unable to have a word on those ones, but if they include at least some kind of protection for the author (i.e. no warranty) they should be better.. 21:01:24 Glav: Right. 21:01:42 I think both CC0 and WTFPL allow you to waive warranty. 21:02:33 -!- frieza_ [frieza@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:05:36 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-164.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:41 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-164.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:54 wbooze 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