00:02:06 -!- lingrush [~klol@av104117.reshsg.uci.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:02:47 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@75-175-5-194.ptld.qwest.net] has left #scheme 00:02:59 lingrush [~klol@av104117.reshsg.uci.edu] has joined #scheme 00:16:43 -!- jblz [~jake@cpe-204-210-208-155.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:25 foof: I'm finding a bunch of stuff in the first draft, none of it too serious. Would you rather I wrote it up as email, or made a branch? 00:25:53 For small things it's probably easier as an email. 00:26:17 I'm updating the list of similar languages in 1.1, for one thing, it's embarassingly out of date. 00:26:48 -!- lingrush [~klol@av104117.reshsg.uci.edu] has quit [Quit: lingrush] 00:27:56 Oh, I was leaving all that untill the next draft. 00:28:00 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A92BCE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:15 Doesn't hurt if you have time now though. 00:28:23 Time/energy now. 00:28:41 So I'll make a branch, then: draft-1-cowan. 00:29:12 sure 00:30:08 What fashionable revision control system are you chaps using? 00:30:14 hg 00:30:18 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:30:58 lingrush [~klol@av104117.reshsg.uci.edu] has joined #scheme 00:34:28 I printed the PDF today: 66 pages. Nicely comparable to R5RS's 50. 00:34:58 It was 65 for me, and I was hoping to get it down to 64 :) 00:35:12 Don't bother, it will grow a bit, I'm sure. 00:38:18 Riastradh: git 00:39:18 Do you think rationalize should be in a module? It depends on ratios, and we don't have a module for ratios. 00:39:57 Rationalize doesn't depend on ratios. 00:40:31 Rationalize is bizarre. I'm sure I've complained about it on the list. 00:42:08 We'd need to say "the smallest representable rational number" or something of the sort, since if you don't have ratios not all rationals are representable. 00:42:21 -!- zmv [~daniel@c934a9f5.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:43:02 -!- ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:43:04 We can leave the text as is, we haven't changed the fact that exact ratios are optional. 00:43:07 elly, oh, I ment foof and jcowan for the report. 00:43:39 Git, I learned today, is unhappy with slow file systems such as sshfs. 00:43:48 that is true. 00:44:10 In particular, it expects that open will never return EINTR -- even though it sets up an alarm timer to report progress! 00:45:22 However, there is a deeper problem, which is that open does not pclsr -- it backs out and may make no progress. So MIT Scheme, which does the same but correctly assumes open may return EINTR, will spin rather than crash. 00:45:40 I don't know a good way to handle this situation. 00:45:42 Do you? 00:46:16 I agree with Joe Marshall - get a real OS :P 00:46:18 jblz [~jake@cpe-204-210-208-155.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:46:31 (Joe Marshall suggested that `shitcanning Unix is the obvious correct idea', but there are no acceptable replacements at the moment to the best of my knowledge.) 00:47:18 I don't think it's an actual Posix requirement not to do pclusering. 00:47:19 Riastradh: git is unhappy with slow file systems, yes 00:47:31 the solution is to not use git on a slow file system 00:47:45 No, that's a kludgerific workaround for broken software. 00:48:17 send patches? :O 00:48:27 anyway, git is what I use 00:48:45 I've never tried using it over sshfs because it's just easier to clone over ssh, then work locally and push back 00:48:47 The solution would be to fix Unix (to support asynchronous open) and Git (to assume system calls may return EINTR). 00:48:59 -!- christopher_ [~christoph@c-98-201-58-105.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:49:58 heh. My computers are named rocinante, zancas and quixote, but even I am not that crazy 00:50:33 POSIX already has an asynchronous I/O API -- but it works only for files you already have open! 00:50:33 to think that the solution to my problem is to fix unix and git 00:50:56 Perhaps you and I draw the line between `workaround' and `solution' differently, bremner. 00:50:57 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.60] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:51:22 Riastradh: I'm sure you have a good reason for using sshfs, but, what is it? 00:51:36 The remote host doesn't have Git and I don't have root on the remote host. 00:51:47 you don't need root to install git. 00:51:52 -!- lingrush [~klol@av104117.reshsg.uci.edu] has quit [Quit: lingrush] 00:51:53 but that is a workaround, I guess ;) 00:51:55 No, but I don't want to deal with installing it. 00:52:42 It's not the case here, but one could easily imagine having access through ssh to nothing but sftp. 00:52:53 Riastradh: are you talking about posix aio? 00:53:08 Yes, elly. 00:53:21 the glibc implementation of it is, um, bad :) 00:53:31 (it uses synchronous reads done in worker threads) 00:53:50 it is kind of a pity, since io_submit(2) does exist 00:53:51 (I know -- nobody uses aio, and it's badly documented, and it's badly implemented, and, and, and, and...nevertheless, it's there, and it's standard, and it's just missing a little bit to do something that is very reasonable.) 00:54:13 aio is, in fact, badly implemented 00:54:29 as implemented it is no better (and actually probably worse) than doing it yourself using epoll 00:55:22 Well, my operating system doesn't have epoll, but it does have aio... (I think its aio is somewhat better than what you described, too, but I haven't tested it myself.) 00:55:54 Presumably it doesn't have glibc either. 00:58:21 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 00:58:26 Riastradh: does your have kqueue? 00:58:49 yours, rather 00:58:52 Yes. 00:58:56 yeah 00:58:59 "same thing" 00:59:24 Riastradh: did-you/can-you try other file systems? I suspect about the only things sshfs has going for it are no server install and encrypted traffic. 00:59:25 Well...not quite. There are some subtle differences in their capabilities, if I recall correctly, not just cosmetic ones. 01:00:12 bremner, I'm sure I could trigger the same problem if I turned off the local disk at the right time, but that would cause lots of other problems too... 01:02:07 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:02:11 Riastradh: well, AIUI, kqueue can wait for many different kinds of event 01:02:24 whereas linux just plumbs all events into file descriptors using signalfd/timerfd 01:02:51 Anyway, I don't remember the subtle differences -- it has been a while since I scrutinized epoll carefully. 01:03:25 I may be misremembering, or confusing it with the differences between inotify and kqueue's vnode filters (which are substantially different). 01:03:56 By the way, elly, have you by any chance been seeing Google's captcha today a lot more than usual? 01:04:06 I have. 01:04:29 Riastradh: over tor, you mean? not especially 01:04:38 (and I certainly don't see it at work) 01:04:44 Yes, over Tor. 01:04:55 I don't think I have once managed to use Google without going through the captcha today. 01:05:03 maybe someone's being an asshole over tor then 01:05:28 a while ago I started using altavista (!) when on tor 01:05:44 google serves captchas too often and duckduckgo, for reasons known only to them, requires js 01:06:15 I didn't even know Altavista still existed. 01:06:18 When I'm VPNed to work I get lots of Google captchas, not when not. Presumably it's just the sheer volume of folks on the VPN googling like mad. 01:06:41 jcowan: that's amazing. 01:07:03 (I've never seen a captcha when *not* torified, but then I tend to have a publicly-routable IP address that I'm not sharing) 01:07:13 They are probably all using the same proxy to talk to the Internet, and Google sees zillions of requests from a single IP or so. 01:07:17 Riastradh: amusingly, I didn't either until I tried to find a search engine I could use :) 01:07:47 Oh, fun. Now Firefox has crashed. 01:08:22 ...and it wasn't built with debugging information, and I don't have any debugging information handy. Argh. Stupid !@#^@!&*#%*!#* destruction of valuable debugging information. 01:09:04 People look at file/download size, not text size. 01:09:37 splitdebug to the rescue? 01:09:55 Riastradh: I don't know if it works with NetBSD, but with Debian, when I need to get a debugging version of the program, I download the package source for the _exact_ version of the program I have installed. I then do the build, and the copy in the build directory is built with full debugging info. 01:10:07 (That seems to be Debian's policy, to have builds performed with full debugging.) 01:10:21 I should try netbsd 01:10:33 I remember, last time I tried it, being utterly baffled by a) csh and b) cvs 01:10:48 And the idea is that because I'm building the exact same version as what's installed, then the function locations should all be the same. 01:11:12 csh? Nobody uses csh. You don't need to know anything about CVS beyond `cvs -z5 update -dPA' or `cvs -z5 update -dP -r netbsd-5'. 01:11:38 If you set up your ~/.cvsrc right, even the -z5 and -dP are optional. 01:12:08 (i.e., have the following lines in ~/.cvsrc: "cvs -z5\nupdate -dP\n", where \n has the obvious meaning. 01:16:21 haha good one Riastradh 01:16:47 Hmm? 01:16:50 I'm afraid of cvs :( 01:17:02 you don't need to know anything besides ")*(#W)(FJ@#()F()@#()@#UF()" 01:17:05 like, are you kidding me 01:17:07 centralized version control systems scare me 01:18:18 jonrafkind: Those commands are not that arcane. 01:18:22 uh hu 01:18:31 centralized goverments scare me 01:18:34 jonrafkind: With the ~/.cvsrc set up the way I explained, the two commands become "cvs up -A" and "cvs up -r netbsd-5". 01:18:47 I think it's safe to say centers are bad in general. 01:18:49 foof: Is that a reference to Japan, or the US, or somewhere else? 01:19:15 cky: yes 01:20:13 :-) 01:20:41 jonrafkind: To be fair, I've used CVS for years and years. 01:20:48 jonrafkind: So those kinds of things are second nature to me. 01:21:17 I've also used Subversion for years, just not years and years. And now at work we use git. :-P 01:21:26 foof: == 01:21:39 I was raised on git 01:21:42 and we use git at work 01:21:48 Humanity has much experience with decentralized government. It's called "feudalism". 01:21:52 I've used hg before and it's basically the same but alpha-varied 01:21:59 jcowan: no, that's just with more local centers 01:22:29 jcowan: Feudalism still exists to this day. Except instead of aristocrats owning you, corporations do. :-P 01:23:05 No need to tell me that. But at least I'm not ascript to the cube farm. 01:23:17 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:23:22 :-) 01:24:09 There's a difference between serfs and Microserfs, just as there's a difference between slavery and wage slavery, that can't be ignored. 01:24:38 Anyhow, it's not the capitalists that create wage slavery, it is the rentiers. 01:30:51 lingrush [~klol@av104117.reshsg.uci.edu] has joined #scheme 01:31:07 jcowan_ [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:31:57 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:32:01 -!- jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 01:44:56 -!- common_tragedian is now known as word-magician 01:45:32 jcowan: Interesting. *nods* 01:45:55 I had to read up on rentiers, but it all makes sense. 01:46:54 Where did you read up on them? I'm curious. 01:47:02 Just Wikipedia. 01:47:17 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:47:43 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-idympbxjmyiivacy] has joined #scheme 01:48:08 It's not rentiers: there are no rentiers anymore in countries such as France. 01:48:12 It's interest. 01:48:48 Well, I presume there are mortgages, so the rentiers are now banks. 01:49:09 chemuduguntar [~ravic@smtp.touchcut.com] has joined #scheme 01:49:15 Mortgages with 0% interest. 01:50:00 And yes, it means that instead of having to work 40 years to pay your housing, you'll have to work only one. 01:51:11 or even less. See eg. how the mormons build their houses. They spend a few days on it, times the number of people, about 2 man.month of work. 01:55:48 "There is some debate as to whether running code leads to rough consensus or vice versa." 01:56:43 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:57:28 Everybody's a rentier, when you plant a tree and eat the fruits. 01:57:42 Well, no. That's capital investment, not rent. 01:58:11 Eating fruit off trees that you didn't plant is rent. 01:58:33 You cannot eat all the fruits of the tree you plan. 02:01:57 is that a challenge? 02:02:10 Sounds more like a proverb. 02:02:50 well, perhaps if you eat nothing else, but trees live usually much more than people... 02:03:06 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.66.173.210] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 02:04:05 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:09:07 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 02:09:07 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 02:09:07 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 02:09:34 -!- vk0 [~vk@ip-23-75.bnaa.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:09:47 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:12:27 i_r_litestar [182e1463@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.20.99] has joined #scheme 02:13:34 hmm 02:14:12 good god I'm retarded today 02:14:19 -!- i_r_litestar [182e1463@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.20.99] has left #scheme 02:21:22 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:21:42 ladies and gentlemen, today's non sequitur. 02:25:13 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 02:25:50 -!- word-magician [~common_tr@h69-129-202-204.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33:50 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:34:06 and that's why potato salad is illegal in somaliland 02:34:12 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:34:34 osoleve: bravo 02:34:51 as the nurse said to the barman 02:37:34 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 02:45:55 -!- levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:39 levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:53:01 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 03:06:44 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:14:54 what does bad define placement mean? 03:16:34 You must put internal defines at the start of the function they're in 03:16:41 It could be related to that 03:17:12 hrm, ok 03:17:15 thanks 03:18:14 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:19:22 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:20:58 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 03:24:02 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-149-156.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:31:01 -!- masm [~masm@bl15-135-214.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:35:30 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:47:02 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:54:57 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 03:55:14 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:57:55 -!- Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-79-176-206-190.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:58:45 can someone help me figure out if i do (%shunting-yard (string->list "3+(4-3)") '()) at the end, stack contains #f? 03:58:48 http://codepad.org/hgVaR2o2 03:58:55 bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has joined #scheme 04:01:00 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 04:01:38 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 04:04:10 saccade [~saccade@74-95-7-186-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 04:07:30 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:08:04 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-idympbxjmyiivacy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:12:25 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-9-42.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:15:46 copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:15:46 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 04:15:46 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 04:18:24 osoleve: Is it because strip-stack returns false because parse-stack returns unspecified when the stack is empty? 04:18:37 osoleve: Just a random guess, I haven't really studied your code. 04:18:49 i'll look into it, thanks 04:19:23 nope 04:20:43 Hmm 04:21:06 Let me get some cereal and I'll have another look. :-P 04:21:07 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 04:21:12 loooove yoooou 04:25:31 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-1-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:29:40 osoleve: I think it is related to what I said. If I replace strip-stack with (if (member (last (parse-stack stack)) stack) (member (last (parse-stack stack)) stack) '())) then (%shunting-yard (string->list "3+(4-3)") '()) returns (#\3 #\4 #\3 (#\-)) 04:29:50 (Which might not be what you want, but it isn;t an error!) 04:30:29 s/strip-stack/the definition of strip-stack/ 04:30:39 TOO LATE 04:30:41 :((( 04:31:00 Heh :-s 04:31:18 hmmm, now to figure out where that rogue #\+ went 04:31:22 thank yoooou 04:32:08 My pleasure 04:32:22 (you don't know where it went, did you? haha) 04:33:04 I've found that shunting yard is usually useful only for interactive mode, like in a scientific calculator. :-P 04:33:05 Nope. :-P 04:33:08 Generally, I prefer to use a real parser. 04:33:19 (i.e., one generated from a grammar.) 04:33:23 -!- saccade [~saccade@74-95-7-186-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:33:27 cky: this is going to make a calculator 04:33:37 also, the calculator uses a recursive-descent parser :D 04:33:38 osoleve: Hahaha, nice. 04:33:59 allenmelon [~amin@97-93-49-23.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:34:16 -!- allenmelon [~amin@97-93-49-23.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has left #scheme 04:35:48 okay, bed time. back to work on this in the morning. 04:35:50 -!- tr3x [~tr3x@93-141-6-183.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:35:51 night, and thanks again! 04:37:18 I need to read up on parsers and stuff. 04:37:18 -!- ijp [~user@host86-150-75-42.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:40:35 saccade [~saccade@74-95-7-186-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 04:40:49 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:56:50 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:00:08 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-zpskijycfbkxrrkn] has joined #scheme 05:06:56 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 05:08:35 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:21:12 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 05:21:15 ysph [~user@adsl-89-38-168.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 05:22:17 Using chicken here, I'd like to read data from a port where the first few bytes are uncompressed, and the rest of the data is deflate compressed, is that something I could do with z3? 05:29:05 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:29:31 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-177.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 05:29:37 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-177.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 05:30:13 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:31:04 -!- ebzzry [~aoeu@203.213.202.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:32:48 ebzzry [~aoeu@203.213.202.186] has joined #scheme 05:36:15 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 05:37:10 -!- paulh_ [~paulh@3-12-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:38:54 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:44:50 Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 05:44:50 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:44:50 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 05:45:36 ysph: If your deflate port is simply a wrapper around an existing input port (and surely, any sane implementation would work that way), then just create your deflate wrapper port after reading those first few uncompressed bytes. 05:46:15 s/deflate/inflate/g 05:46:28 i wish that was how it worked, but it doesn't appear so http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/z3 05:46:36 -!- saccade [~saccade@74-95-7-186-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:47:36 Such fail. :-P 05:48:00 i was really disappointed when i got the the Port interface portion of that page 05:48:29 i'm wondering though if it wouldn't be so hard to crack that open and write the procedures to wrap existing ports 05:48:40 Mango-chan [Mango-chan@ucbvpn-208-60.VPN.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:48:41 -!- Mango-chan [Mango-chan@ucbvpn-208-60.VPN.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Changing host] 05:48:41 Mango-chan [Mango-chan@unaffiliated/mango-chan] has joined #scheme 05:48:50 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:49:22 i was thinking maybe there is some scheme way of doing things that i don't know, it's entirely possible, but the way you described is they way i expected it to work 05:50:14 *the 05:52:23 -!- `Jaka [Mango-chan@ucbvpn-208-60.VPN.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:55:32 -!- DrDuck [~duck@216.186.151.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:59:35 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:00:05 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 06:06:29 christopher [~christoph@c-98-201-58-105.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:06:51 It shouldn't be hard at all. 06:07:11 It's just that I'm doing work at the moment, so I can't look further. :-P But I wish you luck. 06:19:09 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:25:07 rookiejet [~mazin@dhcp-0-f-3d-bc-41-3b.cpe.quickclic.net] has joined #scheme 06:25:09 ccorn [~ccorn@j109182.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 06:25:14 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:32:40 -!- rookiejet [~mazin@dhcp-0-f-3d-bc-41-3b.cpe.quickclic.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 06:46:06 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:51:19 -!- LN^off is now known as LN^^ 06:57:12 vk0 [~vk@ip-23-75.bnaa.dk] has joined #scheme 07:07:07 -!- lingrush [~klol@av104117.reshsg.uci.edu] has quit [Quit: lingrush] 07:13:51 lingrush [~klol@av104117.reshsg.uci.edu] 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rotty_web [8dc96d8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.141.201.109.140] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:45:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-214-157.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:51:44 aleix [~aleix@eurk-125-99.uab.es] has joined #scheme 16:57:36 nteon [~nteon@c-98-210-195-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:58:02 teurastaja [~netwalker@modemcable182.177-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 17:01:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-217-144.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:02:25 (((call/cc (lambda (k) k)) (lambda (x) x)) "HEY!") 17:02:30 i need explanations 17:02:53 i know => "HEY!" but still 17:03:56 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 17:04:12 HG` [~HG@dslb-084-061-247-023.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 17:04:43 anyone? 17:04:48 im stuck 17:05:33 (((call/cc (lambda (k) k)) (lambda (x) x)) "HEY!") is confusing 17:05:41 so what 17:05:53 are you asking what call/cc does? 17:06:48 no 17:06:52 You capture the continuation of the computation that delivers the procedure for the first nested set of parens (in operator position). This continuation is simply returned by (lambda (k) k) 17:07:12 This continuation is then passed to (lambda (x) x) and returned 17:07:25 That's applied to the value of "HEY" 17:08:04 no the continuation is applied to (lambda (x) x) 17:08:10 right 17:08:12 and (lambda (x) x) is applied to HEY 17:08:13 right, applied 17:08:18 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:23 not passed 17:08:53 at least the author said "the most confusing program of its size..." 17:09:36 sjamaan: it is not passed to (lambda (x) x) it is applied to that function 17:09:48 poucet: Yeah, I got that :) 17:09:54 oh sorry :) 17:10:18 I have to say, I find continuations much more confusing than delimited ones :) 17:10:50 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@geniedb.hotdesktop.biz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:10:58 So Iguess when it is applied, you end up with 17:11:09 (((lambda (x) x) (lambda (x) x)) "HEY!") 17:11:23 sridharr [~srid@remote.activestate.com] has joined #scheme 17:11:23 Actually just ((lambda (x) x) "hey") 17:11:49 -!- sridharr [~srid@remote.activestate.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:11:51 not sure I agree on that, a simple displ would help 17:11:52 what i dont get is how after the continuation returns it is applied to (lambda (x) x) 17:11:59 what is left then? 17:12:11 i mean how does a contunuation apply durectly? 17:12:16 *directly 17:12:19 We are replacing the hole made by (call/cc ) with the value the continuation is applied to 17:12:23 or 17:12:30 (((lambda (x) x) (lambda (x) x)) "HEY!") 17:12:37 oh! 17:12:37 poucet: Yes, you're right; (((lambda (x) x) (lambda (x) x)) "HEY!") 17:13:36 *sjamaan* should stop trying to answer tricky questions after getting home from work 17:13:43 :) 17:13:44 continuation refers to (lambda (x) x) or (lambda (x) x) "HEY!")? 17:14:09 teurastaja: imagine a pointer or hole where you are currently evaluating 17:14:38 (([ ] (lambda (x) x)) "HEY!") is where we are at when evalling (call/cc (lambda (k) k) 17:14:52 a continuation says, plug whatever is applied to the continuation into that hole and continue from there (roughly speaking) 17:15:04 so we are applying the continuation to the (lambda (x) x) 17:15:06 so it gets stuck in that hole 17:15:14 (((lambda (x) x) (lambda (x) x)) "HEY!") 17:15:23 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:59 you apply the continuation to itself basicaly 17:17:12 nope, if you did that you'd ahve an infinite loop 17:17:35 artgh 17:17:54 (call/cc (lambda (k) k) returns a function (lambda (f) ((f (lambda (x) x)) "HEY!") 17:17:58 or in hole syntax 17:18:09 (([ ] (lambda (x) x)) "HEY!") 17:18:18 after continuations, is there a more difficult concept to learn? 17:18:34 yorick [~yorick@unaffiliated/yorick] has joined #scheme 17:18:35 I think it's probably one of the most complicated concepts of scheme 17:18:53 Macros? 17:19:11 concretely: what IS a continuation? 17:19:33 teurastaja: are you familiar with C++? 17:19:45 more with c than c++ 17:19:50 imagine some function 17:20:03 int foo() { a(); b(); return continuation(); c(); d();} 17:20:11 the continuation basically allows you to get bakc where you left off 17:20:26 in scheme, how is it defined? 17:20:46 teurastaja: a function taking one parameter (what to put where call/cc was) and evaluating everything after it 17:20:54 Informally, a continuation is "the thing that wants the return value". 17:21:14 sjamaan: I've always wondered what a language that mixes ocntinuations, threads and STM would feel like :) 17:21:16 poucet: Technically continuations can be called with any number of arguments (including 0), but using anything other than 1 is uncommon. 17:21:23 cky: interesting 17:21:39 what would that do? 17:21:39 cky: where do the other ones end up? 17:21:45 teurastaja: Multiple-value return. 17:21:52 (Like using VALUES.) 17:22:21 rudybot: (require srfi/8) 17:22:21 cky: Done. 17:22:24 *poucet* has always preferred delimited continuations, they are much clearer than the fuzzy concept of (from now until end of program) 17:22:48 rudybot: (receive (foo bar baz) (call/cc (lambda (cc) (cc 1 2 3))) (+ foo bar baz)) 17:22:49 cky: ; Value: 6 17:23:12 poucet: ^^--- example of calling continuation with multiple arguments. 17:23:16 Thanks 17:23:30 rudybot: (receive (foo bar baz) (values 1 2 3) (+ foo bar baz)) 17:23:30 cky: ; Value: 6 17:23:36 receive? 17:23:37 poucet: That's the identical version using VALUES instead. 17:23:37 (define (values . x) (cwcc (lambda (c) (apply c x)))) 17:23:41 *poucet* nods 17:24:02 teurastaja: RECEIVE is like MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND, if you've used CL. 17:24:18 Riastradh: if values is based on cwcc, are there any other 'native' ways of injecting multiple values? 17:24:45 Riastradh: woah, mind = blown 17:25:06 elly: Really? That's explicitly mentioned in R5RS. 17:25:25 elly: (That VALUES can be implemented by calling a continuation with its arguments.) 17:26:24 poucet, the definition I gave shows equivalence, not which is necessarily implemented in terms of which. 17:26:27 I either did not read it or forgot it :P 17:26:51 Riastradh: good point 17:30:45 lingrush [~klol@av104117.reshsg.uci.edu] has joined #scheme 17:31:11 i dont get the definition of values 17:32:41 nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 17:33:28 how does (apply c x) work in that definition 17:33:34 early morning 17:37:56 rudybot, (let/cc k (k 2 3)) 17:37:56 DT``: your sandbox is ready 17:37:56 DT``: ; Value: 2 17:37:57 DT``: ; Value#2: 3 17:38:08 oh. 17:38:14 (define-syntax receive (syntax-rules () ((receive (args ...) prod body ...) (call-with-values prod (lambda (args ...) body ...))))) 17:38:17 ? 17:38:33 Better to replace `(args ...)' by `args'. 17:38:55 good point 17:39:01 Is that how it works? 17:39:22 (call-with-values (lambda () prod) (lambda args . body)) 17:39:29 Almost. You also need to replace `prod' by `(lambda () prod)' in the output. 17:39:35 poucet: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-8/srfi-8.html 17:39:42 poucet: That has the obvious implementation. :-) 17:39:46 aha! 17:49:12 what is call/cc in scheme though? 17:50:16 stamourv [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:51:39 When you call a procedure on a sequential machine, you hand control of the machine to the procedure. But you want to get control back when it's done -- you want it to return control of the machine to you, and usually a value. So you have to tell the procedure what to do when it's done. It's almost as though you hand the procedure a procedure that it should execute when it's done -- but not quite like that, because the procedure you hand it isn 17:53:17 Riastradh: you were cut off at "you hand it isn" 17:53:41 When you call a procedure, the `procedure' you hand it to tell it what to do when it's done is called its continuation: it tells how to continue the computation. 17:54:01 ...isn't supposed to return -- it's supposed to continue executing the rest program for all eternity. 17:54:29 When you call CWCC with some continuation, CWCC takes the continuation and turns it into a first-class object that you can use over and over again to restart the computation exactly where the call to CWCC would have returned. 17:56:22 -!- taylanub is now known as taylan 17:57:01 -!- taylan is now known as taylanub 17:58:34 -!- Harrold [~quassel@134.117.254.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:58:50 githogori [~githogori@191.sub-69-99-134.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 18:01:58 -!- hiyuh [~hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:03:39 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-177.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:04:10 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-180.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:04:16 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-180.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:00 wow, I just discovered that clojure's split-at iterates over the list twice. 18:06:45 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-177.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:06:58 gross 18:07:20 iterate twice; cut once 18:07:44 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-180.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:09:04 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-180.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:15:28 ... java ... 18:17:04 pjb, I use to think that *that* was the problem with clojure. 18:17:10 then I looked at the source. 18:19:01 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-149-156.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 18:19:01 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@ip24-255-34-109.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 18:19:03 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@ip24-255-34-109.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:19:03 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 18:19:46 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-1-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:25:29 DT``: One of the grossest things I've found about Clojure's implementation internals is that it throws Exception (rather than a specific subclass thereof). 18:25:54 It makes me earnestly wish that the designers of Java gave Throwable, Exception, RuntimeException, and Error protected constructors only. 18:26:04 I'm not even looking at the internals, just core.clj. 18:26:08 Harrold [~quassel@134.117.254.248] has joined #scheme 18:26:10 *nods* 18:26:51 the more I scroll through the source, the more I feel trolled. 18:26:55 It's fantastic. 18:27:03 Drive-by trolling. :-) 18:28:07 -!- teurastaja [~netwalker@modemcable182.177-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Tschuess] 18:29:51 EbiDK [~ebi@3e6b7ac3.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #scheme 18:33:10 one of my friends has a shirt: "Cut twice. Measure?" 18:33:24 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD93C78.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #scheme 18:35:20 -!- EbiDK [~ebi@3e6b7ac3.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:40:22 elly: how well does that shirt fit? :-\ 18:40:31 be funnier if it were _really_ poorly tailored 18:43:14 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:43:50 offby1: probably well :( 18:45:00 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:49:52 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-63-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:52:14 -!- aleix [~aleix@eurk-125-99.uab.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:00:50 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-198-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:13:08 ijp [~user@host86-150-73-241.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 19:16:26 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 19:20:02 pumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 19:20:02 -!- pumpkin 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