00:11:20 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 00:17:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-13.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:01 -!- nixness [~dsc@78.100.186.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:25:20 nixness [~dsc@89.211.254.177] has joined #scheme 00:29:04 tronador_ [~guille@190.66.191.25] has joined #scheme 00:41:19 -!- davazp [~user@201.Red-88-6-204.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:28 -!- LeoNerd [~leo@fairy.dictatorshipcake.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:53:05 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@75-175-5-194.ptld.qwest.net] has left #scheme 00:57:46 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:48 therac25 [~therac25@120.89.80.18] has joined #scheme 01:10:21 common_tragedian [~common_tr@weir-02.slc.edu] has joined #scheme 01:11:59 -!- githogori [~githogori@49.sub-75-208-78.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:18 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:16:44 -!- Teeko [~Teeko@162.Red-88-22-219.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 01:16:47 -!- nixness [~dsc@89.211.254.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:22:25 necroforest [~jarred@ip68-106-224-116.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 01:22:34 can anyone that has read some of LiSP voice their opinions? 01:24:29 Hey-da-ha-hee-hoooooooo. Hurly burly vurly nurl! 01:24:33 Oh, wait, I haven't read LiSP. 01:26:40 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:28:00 :/ 01:30:40 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:35 Can someone more in tune with American pop-culture than me explain what this "winning" thing is about? 01:42:01 hiyuh [~hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:42:12 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.66.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:42:17 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-62-150.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 01:42:49 ignis_ [~quassel@cpe-66-74-76-152.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:43:46 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-62-150.gmavt.net] has left #scheme 01:45:02 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-62-150.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 01:46:09 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-62-150.gmavt.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:46:23 what winning thing? 01:46:35 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-62-150.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 01:47:55 I believe it's quoting Charlie Sheen, but I can't find an original source or see why it's so funny. 01:56:56 OK, back on topic, how are we going to unify all the implementation-specific CSAN systems? 01:57:14 -!- tessier_ [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:59:53 Or is that a bad idea? We could be inundated with PHP programmers if we make things too easy. 01:59:57 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:00:02 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 02:00:20 fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-191-167-212.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 02:02:10 But, a little inundation is a good thing, right? 02:02:16 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #scheme 02:02:25 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 02:02:25 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #scheme 02:03:38 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-172-213.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:09:41 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:11:55 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:13:40 foocraft [~dsc@89.211.254.177] has joined #scheme 02:14:11 pearle [~user@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #scheme 02:15:53 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-218.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:19:02 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 02:19:02 -!- pearle [~user@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has left #scheme 02:19:42 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-218.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:25:12 vilsonvieira [~vilson@187.112.163.78] has joined #scheme 02:26:11 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #scheme 02:30:40 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:32:58 -!- common_tragedian [~common_tr@weir-02.slc.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:37:30 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-168320.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:39:30 christopher [~christoph@c-98-201-58-105.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:40:46 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-wktzhezfasxmqapy] has joined #scheme 02:40:47 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-wktzhezfasxmqapy] has quit [Changing host] 02:40:47 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 02:44:10 steshaw [~steshaw@60-240-111-207.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 02:48:55 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:52:39 alcuadrado [~alcuadrad@host118.190-138-36.telecom.net.ar] has joined #scheme 02:55:07 foof: Maybe that is the topic of WG3! 02:57:44 php? 02:58:00 copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:58:01 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 02:58:01 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 02:58:14 Hi there! it's the kid reading the SICP once again haha I've just got stuck in one exercise and don't know anyone how knows scheme out there 02:59:21 Then ask here. 02:59:59 I can't find my error: http://paste.ofcode.org/33fMVjaH8ndHpgRbn6wV6an 03:00:58 I'm supposed to make a straight translation from a function to scheme, and a tail recursive version 03:01:16 but the outputs for the same input dont match :( 03:01:41 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:02:48 alcuadrado: what if n = 3? 03:02:57 your specification has a problem 03:03:35 sorry, it's >= 03:03:40 alcuadrado: have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120304 03:03:56 I hope I guessed a b and c correctly. Does it look good? 03:03:58 the editor doesn't supported the right symbol i think 03:05:06 bremner: No, unifying CSAN-type systems. 03:05:46 I think that's my problem 03:05:57 What is your problem? 03:06:03 an off by one error in the parameters 03:06:19 a is fn-2 as you pointed out, but my intention was to use it as fn-3 03:06:53 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 03:07:02 The lesson here is to use the ability lisp gives you to use (almost) any character in symbols, so that you can name your variables meaningfully, instead of using cryptic single letters. 03:07:31 yeah, that's true 03:07:39 can I use ' too? 03:07:51 I tried to name (g) as (f') 03:07:57 and was getting some errors 03:08:01 No, ' is special. 03:08:06 rudybot: (define |f'| "f prime") 03:08:06 cky: your racket sandbox is ready 03:08:06 cky: Done. 03:08:12 rudybot: |f'| 03:08:12 cky: ; Value: "f prime" 03:08:19 It would also depend on the scheme implementation, I'm not sure that |xxx| is standard. 03:08:20 Oh look, I just did it. :-P 03:08:28 pjb: It's not standard. 03:08:31 But f* is often use instead of f' 03:08:35 f** for f'', etc. 03:09:37 I see, thanks :) 03:13:01 pytho [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has joined #scheme 03:13:38 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #scheme 03:14:28 pjb: I'll ask here because I know you play both games: why do some CLers hate on Scheme so much? I was reading Kenny Tilton's blog... 03:15:01 Well Kenny is quite opinionated. 03:16:17 fair enough. I've seen that same hostility from some at #lisp. do you ascribe that to being opinionated too? 03:16:43 It's not really hostility. There are differences. 03:16:50 pjb: f** looks just like a bowdlerised f-word. ;-) 03:16:52 I've spent quite some time now reading about the differences and I still like both. :) 03:17:12 cky: clear your mind of P.C. ;-) 03:17:14 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 03:17:18 :-P 03:17:22 I don't see the need to hate on either 03:17:25 rien: both are likeable. In practice, I prefer CL. 03:17:45 I've been doing CL mostly too, but I can't explain why. :) 03:20:13 The problems are that the standard (up to r5rs, let's ignore r6rs and wait for r7rs{short,big}), is so small, that each implementation need to provide its own extensions to do anything practical, so you have the choice of programming in either a sublanguage where you need to Greenspun CL to be able to do anything, or you have to limit yourself to a single implementation. 03:21:16 On the other hand, I guess one could invest some work to configure and load the SRFIs in various scheme implementations to make bigger and more portability scheme. 03:22:10 I arrived at the same opinion by myself. I was talking to cky about it and he was telling me how it's ok if you abandon all hopes for compatibility amongst different scheme implementations, however I find that I still have to write my own basic stuff to get me high enough to where I need to be to write what I want. 03:22:26 while that is fun and edifying, it does get in the way of Getting Things Done. 03:22:45 I hope big scheme won't be a dud 03:24:57 rien: Agree. 03:27:04 timepilot [~timepilot@99-27-216-74.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:28:05 Yeah, the thing that CL really has over Scheme, in my opinion, is its size. 03:29:42 There's also nil () #f. (car '()) breaks in scheme, and this is really a bother in practice. 03:29:57 shardz [~samuel@ilo.staticfree.info] has joined #scheme 03:30:16 ...what are you smoking? 03:30:19 well, finally I found that the real problem if that I was entering the incorrect value for a base case :$ 03:30:39 (car '()) => () masks legitimate errors. Any program that relies on this is semantically confused. 03:30:48 -!- shardz [~samuel@ilo.staticfree.info] has quit [Client Quit] 03:31:57 No serious Common Lisp program relies on it except as an accident of archaic idioms. 03:34:38 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:34:59 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 03:35:09 can someone take a look at this for me? I'm very lost :/ 03:35:46 http://paste.lisp.org/display/120308 03:40:02 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-148-113.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:40:48 Well, in particular R7RS will have |...| symbols. 03:40:53 pytho: what is counter? Why do you increment it in the else case? 03:41:45 counter keeps track of the number of x's so far 03:41:50 jcowan: is that good or bad? 03:41:58 pytho: and what does the else case mean? 03:42:23 if the car is not in the list, add1 if you find x in the cdr of the list 03:42:37 shardz [~samuel@ilo.staticfree.info] has joined #scheme 03:42:37 rien: It's good in that there is a standardised syntax for making arbitrary symbols. 03:42:38 I'd say it's good. 03:42:57 pytho: When the list is (a b c x x) How many x have you seen? 03:43:11 2 03:43:15 No. 03:43:20 You've not seen them yet. 03:43:39 isn't that what my recursion is for? :O 03:44:03 pjb, yes he did, because originally the list was (p q r x x a b c x x), and he already saw the two x's at the beginning and has cdr'd down to (a b c x x)! 03:44:03 it's trying to find x in the rest of the list 03:44:20 Imagine we start with (x x a b c x x). When we reach (a b c x x), counter is 2. What does it mean that (not (equal? (car '(a b c x x)) 'x)) ? 03:44:47 the point of longest-run is to take a list such as '(x x x b c x x) and return 3 03:44:59 because that was the longest-run of x's 03:45:12 Yes. so in the else case, counter is 3. Why do you compute (+ 1 counter) ? 03:46:18 that is a good point. i'm not sure 03:46:33 it should just be counter 03:46:52 Another question: when do you pass a different value as biggest-counter? 03:47:11 when the list is cdr'd down to '(b c x x) 03:47:41 well, that is when i want to reset it 03:47:46 All the recursive calls to longuest-run-helper pass the same biggest-counter argument. 03:47:54 You never change it. 03:48:00 i wasn't sure how to 03:48:07 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #scheme 03:48:07 You never return it either! 03:48:27 what i wanted to do was compare it to the number that counter returned 03:48:29 and return the largest of the two 03:49:28 pytho: it is possible to do it with a single recursive function, but I'm not sure it's worth the complication. You can use several functions to process the list. 03:50:10 If you want to do it with a single recursive function, you will have to think like a state machine, and you will have to track a state. (It may be an implicit state, but you have to think about it). 03:50:28 do you mean making another helper program? 03:50:43 Suppose the following list is to be interpretted by some logic parser, would you say that the syntax resembles infix notation? '(A AND (B IMPLIES (C IFF D))) 03:50:43 Yes. Try to divide the work in simplier tasks. 03:51:07 pytho: eg. you could have a function that skips over any non x item, returning either an empty list, or a list starting with an x. 03:51:45 pytho: then you could have a function that counts the prefix x, returning a cons cell with the number of x (possibly 0), and the rest of the list (either empty, or not starting with a x). 03:51:46 askhader: Of course. 03:51:59 askhader: If it were prefix, it'd be (and a (implies b (iff c d))) 03:52:01 cky: Brilliant, thank you. 03:52:07 pytho: using these two functions, you could write your solution more easily. 03:53:10 in the first function, if the list is '(x x x a b x), wouldn't 4 be returned? 03:53:22 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:53:26 if it skipped over all the non-x items 03:53:42 Why should it skip over the non x items/ 03:53:43 ? 03:53:59 sorry, I mean, it should return (a b x). 03:54:11 again sorry. 03:54:14 ahh i see 03:54:26 no it's fine. i'm still new to all this so it's a little confusing 03:54:38 (skip-other-items 'x '(a b c x x 1 2 3)) --> (x x 1 2 3) 03:54:49 (skip-other-items 'x '(x x 1 2 3)) --> (x x 1 2 3) 03:55:01 It skips non x, that is, it doesn't skip over x. 03:55:31 (count-items 'x '(a b c x x)) --> (0 . (a b c x x)) 03:55:39 (count-items 'x '(x x x a b c x x)) --> (3 . (a b c x x)) 03:56:08 this count-items counts only a single run, if it's at the beginning of the list. 03:56:21 You can ensure that a run is at the beginning of the list using skip-other-items. 03:56:40 oh so skip-other-items will narrow the list down 03:56:45 Yes 03:56:55 what if the list is '(x x a b c x x x x x) 03:57:16 (skip-other-items 'x '(x x a b c x x x x x)) --> '(x x a b c x x x x x) 03:57:26 (count-items 'x '(x x a b c x x x x x)) --> (2 . (a b c x x x x x)) 03:57:42 (skip-other-items 'x '(a b c x x x x x)) --> (x x x x x) 03:57:52 (count-items 'x '(x x x x x)) --> (5 . ()) 03:57:53 i got it! 03:57:55 thanks :) 03:58:09 Ok, now wrap it up! :-) 04:00:07 Rough size relationships among standards: R5RS < small R7RS < R6RS < ANSI CL < large R7RS. (This does not imply supersetting.) 04:00:26 jcowan: are you sure large R7RS will be larger than CL? 04:01:33 ToxicFrog` [~ToxicFrog@2607:f2c0:f00e:500:222:15ff:fe91:b24c] has joined #scheme 04:01:40 -!- ToxicFrog` [~ToxicFrog@2607:f2c0:f00e:500:222:15ff:fe91:b24c] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:03:46 Reasonably sure, yes. It has 83 modules of various sizes. 04:04:07 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@99-27-216-74.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 04:06:25 -!- rononovski_ [~rononovsk@bzq-79-183-184-16.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:06:36 -!- inimino [~inimino@boshi.inimino.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:06:44 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:07:04 Wow, a language bigger than CL. That'd do Scheme proud. :-D 04:08:42 "It's not size that matters, it's what you do with it." :-P 04:08:52 ^^--- http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/51403/what-should-web-programmers-know-about-cryptography/51528#51528 04:08:52 http://tinyurl.com/4ffc9gd 04:09:09 Of course, no one is able to spec it right now, so for example we know that we'll have a shift/reset API, but we don't know what it will look like exactly. 04:09:34 -!- pytho [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:09:50 rononovski_ [~rononovsk@bzq-79-183-184-16.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 04:09:51 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:09:59 -!- alcuadrado [~alcuadrad@host118.190-138-36.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:10:44 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 04:12:10 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:12:11 Then there are some packages that won't be in large Scheme either but may be in a future Extreme Scheme, such as C, JVM, and CLR FFIs, localization, and a complete sockets API. 04:13:01 jcowan: FFI sounds fundamental nowadays, as well as complete sockets. 04:13:23 So, thus, we have: R5RS < small R7RS < R6RS < ANSI CL < large R7RS < Ackermann's number < extreme R7RS, right? 04:13:42 *jcowan* laughs. 04:14:13 The trouble is that the existing ones aren't similar enough to standardize. There are places where the WG will have to invent a standard, but I hope to keep that rare. 04:14:17 and it looks like if it lacks a CPAN like thingy, it won't be useful either. They should specify it too! 04:14:41 The packages are all optional in conformance terms. 04:14:45 Be sure to name it AOEU. :-D 04:15:01 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #scheme 04:15:05 (Re the "CPAN-like thingy". CL has ASDF; Scheme can have AOEU. :-P) 04:15:15 *jcowan* laughs again. 04:15:25 :-) 04:15:26 -!- foocraft [~dsc@89.211.254.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:15:43 Like the *-rule in the Bell-LaPadula security module. 04:15:43 CL even has quicklisp nowadays! 04:15:50 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:16:51 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 04:17:12 Coolio. 04:17:47 The hope is, of course, that many large R7RS packages can be written in small R7RS, though it's clear that not all can be. 04:18:05 Indeed, FFI needs implementation help. 04:18:42 pjb: At a minimum, some sort of way to break array bounds so your FFI can be implemented in terms of shellcode. ;-) 04:18:44 Once you have FFI, you can implement things like socket as library more easily. (But things might still require help from the implementation, eg. interactions between signals and gc, etc.). 04:19:26 Is multithreading specified in r7rs? 04:20:00 Not in the small language 04:20:24 That's ok. 04:20:26 It's one (or actually several) of the packages 04:20:32 Good. 04:20:41 I hope it won't be SRFI-18, though. 04:21:18 Is any of this `R7RS' practically implemented yet, and grounded in experience with using the implementation for real applications? If not, it's years too early to be standardized... 04:21:28 A large fraction, but not all. 04:21:52 Some implementers did implement r6rs quickly. They'll probably do the same for r7rs. 04:22:12 R7RS small will be easy to implement on top of any R5RS or R6RS system. 04:22:13 That's completely back-arsewards, pjb. 04:22:24 Large can be implemented piece by piece. 04:22:40 And much of it, like the SRFIs we are adopting, will already be there. 04:23:05 I think you mean "Bock arsewards", Riastradh. 04:23:15 ckrailo [~ckrailo@pool-71-170-15-148.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:23:34 inimino [~inimino@boshi.inimino.org] has joined #scheme 04:23:58 Some of the others, like Unicode character database, are just thin overlays on stuff that has existed for years in Perl, Java, C++, etc. 04:24:34 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:25:31 I don't think there's anything in the small language (as currently voted on) that hasn't been around R5RS Schemes for years. With one exception: 04:25:34 DivisionRiastradh. 04:25:41 *jcowan* grins. 04:26:06 -!- evhan [~evhan@76-250-39-229.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:27:06 I didn't put that there... But at least I did implement it in a real Scheme system, and use it for a few things. 04:27:33 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 04:27:40 You wrote it, I proposed, the WG bought it! 04:27:58 s/proposed/proposed it 04:29:50 anybody want to help me figure out where i'm stuck on an assignment? we have to use scheme and i'm having a hell of a time wrapping my head around it. (i'm a ruby/perl guy usually.) 04:29:50 i'm writing a transpose method/function/whatever and it cant use the map stuff i've seen on the internets... it has to be a recursive lambda function. *sighs* 04:29:51 so far i have this: http://pastebin.com/Sww2356c 04:29:52 which is a start... but i dont know what to do to finish the transpose [which should look like this: ((1 4 7) (2 5 8) (3 6 9) (4 7 0)) ] 04:30:40 Oh yes, there is also EXACT-INTEGER? and PORT-CLOSED?, which are harmless enough, and something around current time, but exactly what is not yet decided. 04:31:05 ckrailo: implement map as a recursive function and use it! 04:32:12 pjb: i would if i could... googling gave me that one. ;) 04:32:24 but... the assignment says thsi: 04:32:26 this:* 04:32:27 Write a recursive scheme procedure transpose using a lambda notation that takes a list containing several lists 04:32:27 as input and transposes the columns to rows 04:33:14 ckrailo: pjb's suggestion is correct. 04:33:38 ckrailo: Here's a version using the standard MAP function. You just need to make a recursive version of that: 04:34:03 rudybot: (apply map list '((1 2 3 4) (4 5 6 7) (7 8 9 0))) 04:34:03 cky: ; Value: ((1 4 7) (2 5 8) (3 6 9) (4 7 0)) 04:34:38 ckrailo: All that is using standard built-in Scheme functions. 04:34:48 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:35:28 cky: the prof doesnt want me to use the standard function (or else i would have already, since it's well documented and easily found via Google). 04:35:46 ckrailo: that's why I'm saying to implement it yourself! 04:35:52 ckrailo: What pjb said. 04:36:01 ckrailo: You need to implement your own MAP, that uses recursion. 04:36:26 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 04:37:01 cky: do you have a suggestion on where to start? if you crack open the pastebin, i'm at the first part, (1 4 7), but i dont know where to go from there. 04:37:18 Okay. Start by writing a one-list MAP that uses recursion. 04:37:38 Once you get it down pat, then extend it to take multiple lists. 04:37:46 (define (map fun lst) ... (map fun ...) ...) 04:38:13 pjb: I'm almost tempted to use a named let to get rid of the repeated references to "fun". ;-) 04:39:29 okay cool, let me work on that and i'll report my results. :) thanks cky! 04:39:49 :-) 04:42:47 -!- therac25 [~therac25@120.89.80.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:44:06 copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:44:07 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 04:44:07 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 04:44:14 jcowan: string-ni=? 04:44:45 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:44:58 copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:44:59 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 04:44:59 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 04:45:01 -!- necroforest [~jarred@ip68-106-224-116.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: necroforest] 04:46:36 AOEU? 04:46:54 Riastradh: Which of the division operators do you use? 04:47:35 foof: AOEU are the first 4 letters of the home row in Dvorak. 04:47:41 foof: Obvious contrast to ASDF. 04:47:48 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:48:50 -!- hiyuh [~hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has left #scheme 04:51:44 foof: This is apparently common enough that if you Google for aoeu, all the top hits refer to it as the Dvorak equivalent of asdf. :-P 04:54:19 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:55:38 foof, all I remember off the top of my head is Euclidean and ceiling. 04:57:08 Personally I would've liked to pick just one for WG1 and provide a library of the others in WG2. 04:57:29 Oh, in that case you should pick Euclidean; that's obvious. 04:59:10 ugh i suck at scheme >.< 04:59:36 ckrailo: Everyone (except perhaps GLS and GJS) have been Scheme beginners once. :-) 05:01:26 > (cons (cons 1 '()) (cons 2 '())) 05:01:26 '((1) 2) 05:01:35 how do i make those ((1) (2)) 05:01:37 >.< 05:02:20 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 05:02:25 ckrailo, well, try (cons 1 (cons 2 '())), and see whether that is a useful hint. 05:02:47 Riastradh: i need each to be their own list 05:02:54 ckrailo: Just do as Riastradh says. 05:02:55 so a list with each element being a list containing a number. 05:03:00 i did, it's '(1 2) 05:03:06 i need '((1) (2)) 05:03:13 Good. Now see if you can substitute 1 with (1) and 2 with (2). 05:03:17 ooooo 05:03:20 Stop being so impatient. 05:03:29 sorry, i've been at this for hours before coming here. >.< 05:04:10 evhan [~evhan@76-250-39-229.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:04:20 ckrailo: I was originally going to give you the answer outright, but cleared my buffer when I saw Riastradh's excellent hint. :-P 05:04:45 cky: i'd actually prefer not to have the answer, i need to figure out how to think about scheme. 05:04:51 i do appreciate the thought, though. 05:04:56 Good. Then, patience, grasshopper. ;-) 05:05:09 as long as you promise to put up with my frustration ;) 05:05:15 Hahahahaha. 05:08:00 > (cons (cons 1 '()) (cons (cons 2 '()) '())) 05:08:02 woohoo 05:08:08 '((1) (2)) 05:08:08 :) 05:08:21 okay, now to figure out how to translate that into a lambda function. 05:12:58 ckrailo: Personally, I think manually constructing lists like that is a complete pain in the arse. Once you learn about quasiquotation, you'll probably use it all the time. 05:13:03 nteon [~nteon@c-98-210-195-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:13:37 Sure. But when you write the cons expression, it gives you a template to process it. 05:13:37 rudybot: (define (make-funny-list x y) `((,x) (,y))) 05:13:37 cky: Done. 05:13:45 rudybot: (make-funny-list 1 2) 05:13:45 cky: ; Value: ((1) (2)) 05:14:12 pjb: I'm not sure what you mean by "template to process it". 05:14:59 rudybot: (define (make-funny-list . xs) (map list xs)) 05:14:59 cky: Done. 05:15:00 you can structure your code according to the structure of your data. When you have a cons, you process the car and the cdr. 05:15:04 rudybot: (make-funny-list 1 2 3 4) 05:15:04 cky: ; Value: ((1) (2) (3) (4)) 05:15:26 pjb: You can quasiquote dotted pairs too. 05:15:45 i shouldnt have any dotted pairs 05:15:45 rudybot: (define (funny-cons a b) `(,a . ,b)) 05:15:46 cky: Done. 05:15:56 rudybot: (funny-cons 1 2) 05:15:56 cky: ; Value: (1 . 2) 05:18:06 rudybot: (define (golfed-cons a b) `(,a,@b)) 05:18:06 cky: and you press a key 0,1,2,...,A,B,... to pick the completion 05:18:15 rudybot: eval (define (golfed-cons a b) `(,a,@b)) 05:18:15 cky: Done. 05:18:21 rudybot: (golfed-cons 1 2) 05:18:21 cky: ; Value: (1 . 2) 05:19:58 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:20:03 rudybot: how can you stand it?! 05:20:04 offby1: Hm? What does POT stand for? 05:21:25 necroforest [~jarred@ip68-106-224-116.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 05:24:40 cky: only problem with doing it that way is that i dont know how many rows/columns i'll have. 05:25:15 (doing the make-funny-list thing with defined w x y z, etc.) 05:27:58 ckrailo: Are you still trying to make that transpose function? 05:28:58 ckrailo: so what? Can't you write a recursive function to process whatever number of columns you will have? 05:29:45 cky: yeah >.> 05:30:03 pjb: i suck epically at recursion in scheme. java or ruby, no prob. 05:30:14 ckrailo: Okay, so make a Ruby version. 05:30:21 ckrailo: Then, translate it into Scheme. 05:31:36 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@187.112.163.78] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 05:31:52 But, if you make a Ruby version, be sure you're using cons cells or a similar concept. 05:33:11 (define (map1 fun lst) (if (null? lst) '() (cons (fun (car lst)) (map1 fun (cdr lst))))) 05:33:20 bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has joined #scheme 05:33:22 blake_johnson [~blake@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 05:33:54 That. 05:34:33 (define (map fun . lists) (if (some null? lists) '() (cons (apply fun (map1 car lists)) (apply map fun (map1 cdr lists))))) 05:35:21 (define (some fun lst) (cond ((null? lst) #f) ((fun (car lst)) #t) (else (some fun (cdr lst))))) 05:35:40 Notice that map is structured exactly like map1. 05:36:18 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 05:36:25 Only instead of just (null? lst) we check (some null? lists), instead of (fun (car list)) we (apply fun (map1 car lists)) and instead of (map1 fun (cdr lst)) we (map fun (apply cdr lists)). 05:36:45 That's because all the recursive functions processing lists are always structured the same. 05:37:16 -!- blake_johnson [~blake@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has left #scheme 05:37:31 That's what allows us to write a single map1 function (or map for several lists), and use only that to process lists, instead of implementing over and over the recursive function to process the list. 05:51:33 foocraft [~dsc@dyn-86-36-42-96.wv.qatar.cmu.edu] has joined #scheme 05:52:00 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:55:36 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:56:11 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 05:57:21 ugh why is half of that going over my head 05:57:45 scheme makes me feel freaking stupid. 6 hours into it. :\ 05:58:03 ckrailo: Again. If you think you can do it with Ruby (using cons cells), then do it. 05:58:04 guess thats what happens when you grow up with java/c++, then learn some scripting languages.... 05:58:11 The pain is your brain growing. :-) 05:58:16 fds: :-) 05:58:16 cky: i'm actually not so sure anymore :) 05:58:20 cky: not that way at least 05:58:33 cky: how did you figure out to think in a scheme-ish manner? 05:58:53 ckrailo: Because functional programming is awesomesauce, that's why. ;-) 05:59:10 hehe 05:59:20 i've only thought in imperative-land for years. 05:59:40 Right, and that shift can be quite painful for you, at least initially. 06:00:17 -!- necroforest [~jarred@ip68-106-224-116.ph.ph.cox.net] has left #scheme 06:01:07 It probably won't help you in time for this exercise, but I recommend reading `The Little Schemer'. It really helped me when I was just starting out. (Not that long ago, I may add. :-P) 06:01:35 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:02:21 i've seen a few references to that 06:02:28 i think i've seen one on the racket site 06:02:43 and another in a book i checked out from the library 06:03:26 -!- rononovski_ [~rononovsk@bzq-79-183-184-16.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:03:34 noonian [~noonian@c-76-105-129-255.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:10:19 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.66.191.25] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 06:20:44 saccade_ [~saccade@74-95-7-186-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 06:29:44 -!- ignis_ [~quassel@cpe-66-74-76-152.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:33:29 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:35:02 -!- nteon [~nteon@c-98-210-195-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:49:10 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-243.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:52:41 -!- saccade_ 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[Quit: Fui embora] 14:46:47 Senjai [18531057@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.83.16.87] has joined #scheme 14:47:10 Hey all 14:50:54 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.174.121] has joined #scheme 14:51:51 adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 14:52:51 -!- Harrold [~quassel@134.117.254.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:55:45 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 14:56:16 hi 15:04:19 tr3x [~tr3x@93-138-73-9.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 15:08:31 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:09:51 aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:15:36 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 15:18:16 -!- ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@2607:f2c0:f00e:500:222:15ff:fe91:b24c] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:25:10 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD9439C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5-dev] 15:38:21 Harrold [~quassel@dhcp-101-110.hpsc-staff.carleton.ca] has joined #scheme 15:41:08 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:36 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 15:59:49 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 16:02:30 -!- tr3x [~tr3x@93-138-73-9.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:07:14 ckrailo [~ckrailo@208.86.167.249] has joined #scheme 16:10:25 ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@2607:f2c0:f00e:500:222:15ff:fe91:b24c] has joined #scheme 16:12:02 amoe [~amoe@cpc1-brig13-0-0-cust658.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 16:12:54 ToxicFrog` [~ToxicFrog@2607:f2c0:f00e:500:222:15ff:fe91:b24c] has joined #scheme 16:12:54 -!- ToxicFrog` [~ToxicFrog@2607:f2c0:f00e:500:222:15ff:fe91:b24c] has quit [Client Quit] 16:13:02 Are sockets definitely out for big R7RS? :/ 16:13:11 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:02 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:52 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:21:47 bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has joined #scheme 16:21:50 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Client Quit] 16:25:19 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:12 amoe: I can't speak officially, but I think there's a lot of difficulty designing a "just right" interface for sockets. 16:28:03 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 16:28:03 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 16:28:03 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 16:30:05 the file interface of r5rs certainly wasn't just right, but it was enough to allow basic file io across implementations 16:30:25 pdlogan [~patrick@75-175-5-194.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 16:30:43 can't see why the same thing couldn't be done for at least tcp connections 16:32:03 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:39:08 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #scheme 16:41:23 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:44:28 carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:44:46 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 16:44:46 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:47 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:46:04 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 16:46:21 tronador_ [~guille@190.66.191.25] has joined #scheme 16:46:43 jshickey [~jshickey@97-119-4-66.omah.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 16:48:47 ignis_ [~quassel@cpe-66-74-76-152.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:52:01 paulh_ [~paulh@3-12-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 16:53:54 nteon 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timeout: 264 seconds] 19:01:47 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-198-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:05:21 -!- evhan [~evhan@76-250-39-229.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:05:31 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-182-101.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:06:19 evhan [~evhan@76-250-39-229.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:07:12 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 19:13:59 -!- Harrold [~quassel@dhcp-101-110.hpsc-staff.carleton.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:15:29 -!- DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-47-151.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:06 DT`` [~Feeock@net-93-149-47-151.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 19:19:57 -!- HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-197-082.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:28:36 christopher [~christoph@129.7.255.111] has joined #scheme 19:29:10 -!- christopher [~christoph@129.7.255.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:34 osoleve [~andy@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 19:32:03 how can I determine the length of a symbol's name? is there an analog to CL's (symbol-name ...)? 19:32:35 nevermind, found it 19:34:49 (define symbol-name symbol->string) etc. :-) 19:36:17 christopher [~christoph@129.7.255.111] has joined #scheme 19:39:18 christopher_ [~christoph@129.7.255.111] has joined #scheme 19:40:23 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 19:42:01 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:42:03 choas [~lars@p548B6777.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:43:04 christopher__ [~christoph@129.7.255.111] has joined #scheme 19:43:23 -!- christopher [~christoph@129.7.255.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:43:26 -!- christopher_ [~christoph@129.7.255.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:48:02 -!- christopher__ [~christoph@129.7.255.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:53:58 -!- ravi__ [~ravi@118-92-28-247.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:19 corvaleur [~corvaleur@p54A04FE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:58:47 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-243.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:00:18 Surjikal_ [~nick@134.117.254.249] has joined #scheme 20:00:41 Hey guys, is there a nice program out there to display environment diagrams? 20:01:01 I did take a look at EnvDraw, but it seems quite old. 20:07:29 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.99.20] has joined #scheme 20:09:39 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 20:10:02 Surjikal_: that said, I don't know of any novelty in environments. 20:11:02 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-243.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:20:34 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 20:24:21 True that.. Ill see if I can still compile it. 20:26:32 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 20:33:51 -!- twem2` [~twem2@92.40.173.18.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:37:20 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:39:27 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:41:24 -!- paulh_ [~paulh@3-12-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:51:28 Teeko [~Teeko@162.Red-88-22-219.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:51:46 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 20:51:46 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 20:51:46 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 20:52:11 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:55:12 -!- Surjikal_ [~nick@134.117.254.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:55:50 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 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