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(sqrt (+ 16 (/ (* n (+ n 1)) 2))))) (iota 21 20 -1)))) 02:41:12 WTF 02:41:24 Heh 02:41:32 I've got this assignment due in a few hours and it's making extensive use of map, fold, and filter. 02:41:44 I'm not sure if I'll ever recover. 02:41:54 *fds* folds rageous 02:41:58 rageous: have you partitioned it into bite-sized subproblems? 02:42:08 I'm working on making associations right now. 02:42:16 It's tagged data and lists of lists. 02:42:22 What class is this assignment for, rageous? 02:42:31 Introductory computer science. 02:42:35 Where? 02:42:46 University of Minnesota. 02:42:51 I'm enjoying this assignment so far. 02:43:00 Haven't hit any brick walls, but it's stretching my mind. 02:43:03 Got any questions about it? 02:43:03 rageous: Oh, god. Nothing kills enthusiasm, enjoyment, and passion like academic assignments. 02:43:14 oh, nice; my favorite girlfriend was from minnesota. good to know they're still practicing the ancient jedi arts there. 02:43:21 Haha 02:43:56 Riastradh: Nothing yet, but I do appreciate the offer. 02:44:00 I'm just venting a little. 02:44:22 klutometis: My uni's CS dept. doesn't even practice the ancient jedi arts. I have to do that in my own time. 02:44:45 aidalgol: that's too bad; are you stuck in a java mill? 02:45:30 Riastradh: The assignments put artificial constraints on the work, so I have to exclusively use map, fold, and filter to get my results, rather than iterative and recursive loops, which would be just too easy. 02:45:50 rageous: Those constraints are Good For You. 02:46:03 cky: That's what they all say. 02:46:04 rageous: artificial constraints provide an opportunity for the creative faculties to shine. 02:46:04 rageous: They make you learn about higher-order functions. 02:46:21 I think the key is abstraction. 02:46:26 hiyuh [~hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:46:43 klutometis: Fortunately, yes, but only because I avoid software engineering classes. 02:47:19 rageous: Not just abstraction, but decomposing your problem into small pieces. 02:47:25 However, the algorithms guy here uses extremely buggy, pre-ANSI C. 02:48:00 cky: I'm just starting to get nervous because I'm not finished with it yet, and I've got just about three hours. It shouldn't take that long, but when my time is this constrained, I start to panic. 02:48:04 Without constraints, you end up with the second Viennese school. 02:48:19 rageous: Okay. How would you write it as a loop? 02:48:34 rageous: I'll try to give you hints and stuff to help you break your loop down into bite-sized pieces. 02:48:39 rageous: PM? 02:48:55 aidalgol: Eh, keep the convo on #scheme, unless it's of no interest to Schemers. 02:48:58 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 02:49:04 cky: It isn't. 02:49:09 *nods* 02:50:20 I'm going to spend another ten minutes hacking away at this particular problem. If I don't make any progress, I'll see if anyone's around to give me some pointers. 02:50:44 Scheme is fun for hacking. 02:50:45 Riastradh: good call; does that mean you're a critic of so-called "degenerate art," though? 02:50:59 Without constraints, I end up with a second Viennese finger! 02:50:59 rageous: Excellent. 02:51:31 rageous: i'd like to hack away at the same problem in parallel, since i need an amusement from work. 02:51:38 pray publish the problem, whether you need help or not. 02:53:53 Haha 02:54:01 Alright, I'll publish it. 02:54:13 Where's the preferred paste space? 02:54:37 rageous: See channel topic. 02:54:41 I see it. 02:56:43 Should it automatically show up here? 02:56:54 It used to, but it doesn't any more. 02:57:07 chandler had a problem with spam in another channel, I think, so he turned that feature off. 02:58:30 http://paste.lisp.org/display/120228 02:59:06 What! No Lake Wobegon? Isn't that the most important town in Minnesota? 02:59:34 I think the professor is a transplant, but so am I. 03:00:01 Doesn't matter, though. Everyone knows Prairie Home Companion. 03:00:17 What's the old saying, 'Where the women are handsome and the children are above average' ? 03:00:36 Anyway, I've isolated age and hometown with the following maps... 03:00:46 (map car (map cdr (map car (map cdr biglist)))) 03:00:46 (map car (map cdr (map car (map cdr (map cdr biglist))))) 03:01:10 No, it's `where all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all of the children are above average.' 03:01:15 -!- kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:01:16 Haha 03:01:37 You know it better than I do. I haven't listened to the show since I was a child. 03:02:11 kniu [~kniu@DOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 03:02:43 rageous: anyway, a) has at least two discrete subproblems. oh, but maybe your ten minutes isn't up. 03:02:54 Haha 03:03:21 Now, I've zipped the two lists together. 03:03:22 Well, that's easy enough to fix. It'll start in another twenty hours or so, and even if -- like many bereft college students these days -- you don't have a radio handy, it's streamed by Classical MPR at . How many of those hours will you be tooling away at your problem set? 03:03:58 I've only got a few left, and I've got drill with the Minnesota National Guard bright and early tomorrow morning. 03:05:16 Hahahaha. 03:05:22 rageous: I've already answered all three questions. 03:05:46 You're a pro. 03:05:49 rageous: All I want to know is whether you feel that my posting the answer is going to taint your karma. 03:06:04 I think that would taint the channel's karma, cky. 03:06:14 Oh dear! 03:06:26 Quite frankly, it doesn't matter. I'm tested over all of this on Wednesday, and if you did so I'd be doomed on Wednesday. 03:07:01 I'm looking for understanding of the procedures. 03:07:26 Okay. Here's some one-line descriptions of each of filter, map, and fold. 03:07:48 filter: Takes a predicate and a list. Returns a new list containing items from the incoming list where the predicate returns true. 03:07:53 -!- arbscht_ is now known as arbscht 03:08:08 map: Takes a function and a list. Returns a new list containing the result of each item passed to the function. 03:09:41 fold: Takes a function, an initial value, and a list. Apply the function to the initial value and the first item to the list, using its result as the current value; then apply the function to the current value and the next item on the list; and so on and so forth until the list is exhausted. 03:10:07 Examples: 03:10:18 (filter odd? '(1 2 3 4 5)) => (1 3 5) 03:10:36 (map sqrt '(1 4 9 16 25)) => (1 2 3 4 5) 03:11:04 (fold * 10 '(1 2 3 4 5)) => 1200 03:11:36 (The last one is the same as: (* (* (* (* (* 10 1) 2) 3) 4) 5).) 03:11:47 So far, so good. 03:11:53 Good. :-) 03:12:10 There's one function you should know about, for your particular assignment. 03:12:13 It's called "assoc". 03:12:57 I don't know if assoc is out of bounds. 03:13:02 Is it possible to do it without. 03:13:04 I imagine it is. 03:13:07 rageous: It shouldn't be. It's not a manual loop. 03:13:21 What does assoc do? 03:13:30 rudybot: (assoc "hometown" '(("firstname" "alice") ("hometown" "minneapolis") ("age" 25))) 03:13:31 cky: your racket sandbox is ready 03:13:31 cky: ; Value: ("hometown" "minneapolis") 03:13:38 rudybot: (assoc "age" '(("firstname" "alice") ("hometown" "minneapolis") ("age" 25))) 03:13:38 cky: ; Value: ("age" 25) 03:13:57 You can then use cadr (in this case) to extract just the value. 03:16:12 cky: meh; let him stick to the composition of car and cdr. 03:16:30 klutometis: :-D 03:17:05 Well, where I was before you described the functions in really great detail was the zipping of these two lists... 03:17:18 This yielded : (("minneapolis" 25) ("duluth" 37) ("edina" 22) ("minneapolis" 12) ("st paul" 39) ("minneapolis" 43)) 03:17:19 rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #scheme 03:17:56 Zipping is seriously barking up the wrong tree, IMHO. 03:18:24 Is there anything in Scheme like Common Lisp's `setf'? 03:18:31 However, it's your homework and you should do it however you like. 03:18:37 But simply looking at this list now, it looks like a much simpler problem, but I still don't know where to move from here. 03:18:40 aidalgol: SRFI 17 seems like it. 03:19:00 rageous: Do you want a hint? 03:20:06 I think I'm stuck. 03:20:29 rageous: Each question requires you to use two of the three higher-order functions together. 03:20:40 rageous: How you piece them together is up to you. 03:21:26 "the three higher-order functions" I referred to are, of course, filter, map, and fold, just in case that's not clear. :-P 03:23:00 Do you want another hint? 03:23:41 So, I can get the ages, and I can get a list of the ages above 30, but I don't know how to associate them with the cities. 03:24:28 Show me what you've got. 03:26:04 (map car (map cdr (map car (map cdr biglist)))) 03:26:04 yields the list of cities 03:26:14 (map car (map cdr (map car (map cdr (map cdr biglist))))) 03:26:14 yields list of ages 03:26:27 (filter over30 (map car (map cdr (map car (map cdr (map cdr biglist)))))) 03:26:27 yields the list of ages over 30. 03:27:28 Consider giving names to some of these intermediate quantities! Also, you can contract (map car (map cdr (map car (map cdr (map cdr ...))))) into (map cadadr (map cdr ...)) or (map car (map cdaddr ...)). 03:28:18 So, I can define these lists so they're not so unruly. 03:29:43 rageous: You should use assoc rather than assuming that the third item is the age, for example. 03:30:01 rageous: That way if the marker reorders the assocation pairs, your program will remain working. 03:30:33 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-182-101.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:30:57 I also think trying to get a list of the cities or ages is barking up the wrong tree (though the latter is fine for the last question). 03:31:30 If you want another hint, just ask. 03:32:31 So, c. should be as simple as (foldr + 0 ages) 03:32:35 Yes. 03:32:44 Though, prefer to use foldl instead of foldr. 03:32:54 Interesting. I overheard fellow students talking about how difficult that one was. 03:33:39 I think assoc may work for this homework, the trouble is, I'll have to define it myself. 03:33:48 In fact, there were intermediate parts to this problem that I did not publish. 03:33:52 I guess your fellow students still don't get higher-order functions. 03:33:59 assoc is easy to write. 03:34:34 So, assoc needs to take a key and a list? 03:34:56 And it should spit out the value from that key? 03:35:09 It actually spits out the whole association pair, not just the value. 03:35:20 But you can make a variant that gets just the value. 03:35:42 And I think that was the object in an earlier question, which I'm sure I totally blew. 03:35:51 Hahahahaha. 03:36:07 I tailored it to a single instance to mimic the output listed in the homework, so my assoc-mem looks like this... 03:36:16 (define (assoc-mem key list) 03:36:17 (if (equal? key (car (car list))) 03:36:17 (car (cdr (car list))) 03:36:17 (display "not found") 03:36:17 ) 03:36:17 ) 03:36:40 I don't think assoc is supposed to look like that. 03:36:43 Nope. 03:36:50 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 03:36:50 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 03:36:50 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 03:37:28 The assoc we were supposed to write accepts a key and a list, and returns a value. 03:37:40 That's fine. 03:37:50 In this case, (assoc-mem "age" biglist) => 25 03:37:52 That will certainly make your current question easier to do. 03:38:36 Hey! Don't put parentheses all by themselves on their own lines. That makes them lonely. 03:38:38 I think you meant, (assoc-mem "age" (car biglist)) => 25. 03:38:43 Riastradh++ 03:39:19 rageous: Seasoned Schemers do not put ending brackets standalone, but attach them to the end of the previous line. :-) 03:39:39 (define (assoc-mem key list) 03:39:45 (cond ((null? list) #f) 03:40:04 I do like conds better than ifs, that's for certain. 03:40:47 ((equal? key (caar list)) (cadar list)) 03:41:03 (else (assoc-mem key (cdr list))))) 03:41:56 And that's what I was missing, the ability to actually move down the list. 03:42:25 That makes so much more sense now. 03:42:29 Excellent. :-) 03:42:45 Notice the indentation (and bracket placement) too. 03:42:52 That's the standard format. Try to stick to it. 03:43:53 So, if I take (assoc-mem "age" (car biglist)) I get the first age, 25. 03:44:00 Yes. 03:44:11 Likewise, (assoc-mem "hometown" (car biglist)) 03:44:19 Yep. 03:44:24 Makes sense. 03:44:56 Though, the way I defined assoc-mem uses a loop, and your marker may be unhappy with that. 03:45:01 -!- tauntaun [~Antoninus@64.134.66.212] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:45:06 If all loops are forbidden, you will need to do it a different way. 03:45:21 Normally, I'd say use "find", but that's not in the list of higher-order functions allowed, so you can just use filter. 03:45:22 Loops aren't forbidden there, I dont think. 03:45:26 Okay. 03:45:35 "Make a function assoc-mem that takes a key and an associative list and returns the value corresponding to that key." 03:48:06 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:49:27 *nods* 03:50:34 *cky* goes off to bed.... 03:51:21 Thanks for the help so far, cky. 03:51:23 I appreciate it. 03:51:27 Hopefully I can figure the rest out? 03:51:28 Glad to be of help. 03:51:33 I'm terrible at this. 03:51:43 Yes, I hope so too. But I'll give you another hint before I go. 03:52:04 1. Use map when you want to transform values from a list into the same number of items. 03:52:14 2. Use filter when you want to remove some items from a list. 03:52:15 -!- hiyuh [~hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:52:29 3. Use fold when you are summarising a list down into a single value. 03:52:36 timj__ [~timj@e176193170.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:53:18 Each of those questions call for using two of those functions, used together. It's up to you to figure out how to pair these operations together, but I'll give you one example. 03:53:18 lewis1711 [~lewis@222-155-27-215.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 03:53:27 rudybot: (require srfi/1) 03:53:27 cky: Done. 03:53:39 what sort of macros are things like ' quote, that aren't technically an s-expression? 03:53:45 rudybot: (map (lambda (x) (* x x)) (filter odd? '(1 2 3 4 5))) 03:53:45 cky: ; Value: (1 9 25) 03:54:02 lewis1711: Long time, no see! 03:54:08 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 03:54:08 indeed 03:54:11 ^_^ 03:55:07 lewis1711: The closest thing I can think of are reader macros, but I'm not sure if ', `, etc. are officially considered reader macros. 03:55:10 I'm trying to replicate an enumeration from a C header file, and the gaps are proving to be tricky. If it just starts at zero, I can easily define a vector full of symbols, but if there's a between, say, k and j, I don't know how to *easily* do it. 03:55:31 Anyway. Sleep time. 03:56:02 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176198020.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:56:40 I thought quote was a special form and not any kind of macro.. 03:58:07 oh. I wanted to implement something similar myself 03:58:16 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 03:58:38 How similar? If you can implement it in terms of quote or quasiquote you could use a macro. 03:58:50 just similar syntax 03:58:53 not similar concept 03:59:18 Ah, well maybe you need reader macros, but I don't know much about them, or even how many Schemes implement them. 03:59:38 I think Chicken does 03:59:39 well I don't even know what they mean, so you're ahead of me:) at least i have a name 04:03:21 -!- kuatto [~deep@c-75-72-177-136.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:04:23 http://chickadee.call-cc.org/chickadee/library/set-read-syntax! <-- Might be relevant 04:04:34 I'm a bit out of my depth there though. :-) 04:04:52 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:08:37 Is there a way to say `insert all elements of this vector into this other vector starting at index i'? 04:10:50 aidalgol: See SRFI 43 04:11:27 That's the third referral to an SRFI this afternoon. =p 04:11:31 Thanks, jcowan. 04:11:34 That's what they are for! 04:13:32 43 doesn't seem to be supported by Guile. :( 04:15:36 rageous: you don't need assoc, filter and car is enough. Instead of letting assoc search for the first matching item, you filter all of them then take the first. 04:15:53 DrDuck [~duck@75-138-8-128.dhcp.mtgm.al.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:20:00 aidalgol: You can grab the reference implementation from srfi.schemers.org; it should just work. 04:20:14 ^mye^ [~mye@dslb-088-070-029-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 04:21:49 jcowan: For what I'm doing, I'd rather go with something that doesn't pull in any dependencies. 04:22:04 Okay, look at the code there and copy the routine(s) you need. 04:23:21 -!- mye^ [~mye@dslb-088-070-012-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:29:00 jcowan: move-vector-left! move-vector-right! does what I want. 04:29:15 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-151-109.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:33:40 Bingo. 04:37:41 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:40:53 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 04:41:28 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-36.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:41:31 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-36.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:46:19 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:53:44 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@222-155-27-215.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 04:58:05 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-36.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:59:19 Hmm, is `let*-optionals' from an SRFI? 04:59:20 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 04:59:41 -!- paulh_ [~paulh@3-12-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:16:56 No. 05:17:07 Except inasmuch as it occurs in several SRFIs' reference implementations. 05:18:41 That's where I saw it, in SRFI-43. The author (you?) wrote `use Olin's if it's available to you.' But I'm not sure how I know if it's available to me, or where to find it. 05:18:52 copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 05:18:52 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:18:52 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 05:20:56 As far as I can see there's no mention of it in the Guile manual though. So I suppose it isn't available to me. 05:21:27 But, maybe the code is freely available somewhere 05:31:19 HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-154-255.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 05:32:19 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:33:47 You can probably find it in SRFI 13. But I don't recommend that you use SRFI 43 or LET*-OPTIONALS. Optional arguments are pretty kludgey. 05:36:42 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 05:37:44 Oh, I think I see it. It's called `let-optional*' in Guile. But you think it would be better to implement SRFI-43 without using it? 05:41:14 -!- HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-154-255.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:41:16 As far as I can see it's only used in `list->vector' and `reverse-list->vector'. 05:42:24 Well, I'm far from understanding this code, heh. I think I need to make a cup of tea! 06:00:18 almex [~jazz@unaffiliated/almex] has joined #scheme 06:00:35 -!- almex [~jazz@unaffiliated/almex] has left #scheme 06:14:38 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:15:11 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-0-72.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #scheme 06:19:52 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 06:21:10 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-243.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:28:19 nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 06:34:29 Tea is always a good idea, but I don't think there's anything worth learning from SRFI 43. 06:53:33 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 06:55:38 -!- yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:00:43 yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 07:11:49 -!- nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:13:24 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-243.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:32:56 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 07:33:42 Well, of course you'd say that! 07:33:57 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:39:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:43:00 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:45:40 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-0-72.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:45:47 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-0-72.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #scheme 08:03:57 Riastradh: why are you always repenting for srfi-43? 08:11:17 DT`` [~Feeock@2.32.84.48] has joined #scheme 08:15:51 hrr4 [~user@teleport.nynex.de] has joined #scheme 08:30:36 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-d9bfc2cf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:30:45 pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-5f77b53c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 08:31:19 femtoo [~femto@95-89-198-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 08:38:27 -!- ^mye^ [~mye@dslb-088-070-029-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:40:28 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-198-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:43:39 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:46:21 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 09:02:22 npf [~npf@cpc15-sgyl28-2-0-cust277.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 09:04:36 -!- npf [~npf@cpc15-sgyl28-2-0-cust277.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:08:16 twem2` [~twem2@92.40.173.18.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #scheme 09:15:14 -!- DrDuck [~duck@75-138-8-128.dhcp.mtgm.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:16:25 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:16:57 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-174-112.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 09:17:54 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:19:23 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-36.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:19:58 saccade [~saccade@74-95-7-186-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 09:21:26 araujo [~araujo@190.38.51.34] has joined #scheme 09:21:26 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.51.34] has quit [Changing host] 09:21:26 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 09:24:53 -!- saccade [~saccade@74-95-7-186-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:34:20 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-174-112.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:36:51 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-174-112.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 09:40:20 xwl [~user@114.241.240.139] has joined #scheme 10:11:46 Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-79-176-206-190.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 10:20:50 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:31:13 -!- hrr4 [~user@teleport.nynex.de] has quit [Quit: LOL] 10:36:15 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 10:38:09 micro [~micro@www.bway.net] has joined #scheme 10:39:20 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-243.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:41:47 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 10:43:45 -!- alaricsp_ is now known as alaricsp 10:47:15 -!- blueadept2 [~blueadept@cpe-24-160-96-254.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:02:18 rudybot: (define (symbolify op) (lambda (a b) `(,op ,a ,b))) 11:02:18 pjb: your sandbox is ready 11:02:19 pjb: Done. 11:02:26 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 11:02:30 rudybot: (fold (symbolify '*) 10 '(1 2 3 4 5)) 11:02:30 pjb: error: reference to undefined identifier: fold 11:02:35 rudybot: (foldr (symbolify '*) 10 '(1 2 3 4 5)) 11:02:35 pjb: ; Value: (* 1 (* 2 (* 3 (* 4 (* 5 10))))) 11:02:37 rudybot: (foldl (symbolify '*) 10 '(1 2 3 4 5)) 11:02:37 pjb: ; Value: (* 5 (* 4 (* 3 (* 2 (* 1 10))))) 11:03:16 Symbolic symbols? 11:03:38 :-) 11:04:24 It symbolifies the function, which instead of being arithmetic, becomes symbolic. But then we want the function name... 11:04:29 rudybot: (foldr (symbolify 'cons) nil '(1 2 3 4 5)) 11:04:30 Jafet: your sandbox is ready 11:04:30 Jafet: error: reference to undefined identifier: symbolify 11:04:44 Each one has his own sandbox. 11:05:42 rudybot: (define (symbolify op) (lambda (a b) `(,op ,a ,b))) 11:05:42 Jafet: Done. 11:05:45 rudybot: (foldr (symbolify 'cons) nil '(1 2 3 4 5)) 11:05:45 Jafet: error: reference to undefined identifier: nil 11:05:53 rudybot: (define nil '()) 11:05:53 Jafet: Done. 11:05:55 rudybot: (foldr (symbolify 'cons) nil '(1 2 3 4 5)) 11:05:55 Jafet: ; Value: (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 (cons 5 ()))))) 11:06:18 Because of this dichotomy between function name and function, I find that it's often practical to define meta-functions as macros instead of higher order functions. This is unsatisfying. 11:06:43 rudybot: (foldr (symbolify 'cons) ''() '(1 2 3 4 5)) 11:06:44 Jafet: ; Value: (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 (cons 5 (quote ())))))) 11:06:53 Oh well, that works. 11:07:37 That's funnier when you load a program with all the standard functions symbolified. :-) 11:08:08 Then of course you need to implement a simplifier, but still nice. 11:23:26 kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-105-57.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 11:24:35 -!- nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-46-226.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:37:01 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #scheme 11:57:51 femtoo [~femto@95-89-198-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 12:22:21 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:37:05 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.17.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:47:13 Teeko [~Teeko@184.Red-83-49-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:54:10 -!- lithpr [~user@cpe-204-210-208-155.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:01:24 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:01:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:05:43 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 13:05:48 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Client Quit] 13:13:13 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 13:24:57 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.78.6] has joined #scheme 13:24:58 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.78.6] has quit [Changing host] 13:24:58 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 13:31:04 lithpr [~user@cpe-204-210-208-155.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:34:07 taylanuc [~taylanub@p4FD93FDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 13:35:10 -!- taylanuc is now known as taylanub 13:36:30 -!- lithpr [~user@cpe-204-210-208-155.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:25 tauntaun [~Antoninus@64.134.66.212] has joined #scheme 14:05:08 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-38-142-34.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:06:13 masm [~masm@bl16-182-101.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 14:09:43 lithpr [~user@cpe-204-210-208-155.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:10:59 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 14:28:33 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-38-142-34.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:45:13 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 14:46:55 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-151-109.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:56:01 hiyuh [~hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:01:43 davazp [~user@201.Red-88-6-204.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:24:23 -!- augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:29:20 tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has joined #scheme 15:41:48 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 15:42:00 ghhhhhhhb 15:42:29 you ok ? 15:43:20 -!- Zolomon [~Zolomon@li152-84.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 15:51:29 npf [~npf@cpc15-sgyl28-2-0-cust277.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 15:58:16 DrDuck [~duck@75-138-8-128.dhcp.mtgm.al.charter.com] has joined #scheme 15:58:35 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:59:26 taylanub: cat 16:00:44 i like cats. or do you mean concatenate ? 16:01:03 I should apologize - I deliberately leave my IRC window in focus so my cats can do as little damage to my computer as possible. 16:01:19 oh, "cat" :D 16:01:34 Unfair to the others present, but if you ever see "rm -rf /" come from me then it was more than worth it. 16:01:42 haha 16:03:20 hrmm, i think my implementation choices are down to guile and chicken. 16:07:18 those don't compare, really 16:09:57 different goals or so, you mean ? 16:10:12 yes, I believe so. 16:11:22 taylanub: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Guile#Implementation_compromises 16:12:20 i.e. guile is slow ? 16:14:15 -!- pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has left #scheme 16:19:10 evhan [~evhan@209.242.237.5] has joined #scheme 16:21:44 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 16:22:16 taylanub: they seem to be implying that but I honestly do not know. 16:23:03 -!- npf [~npf@cpc15-sgyl28-2-0-cust277.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: npf] 16:23:52 no troll: any thoughts about haskell ? 16:24:26 The people in #haskell have a lot of thoughts about haskell... 16:24:36 in comparison to scheme ... 16:24:55 and from the viewpoint of #scheme 16:25:45 They're apples and oranges. 16:26:03 What kind of comparison do you want? 16:26:39 i thought they were kind of similar 16:27:01 I switched from haskell to scheme 16:27:25 the reason I did so was because I still like FP but I don't like when it gets in my way 16:27:27 Jafet: have a look at liskell. 16:28:36 rien: for what did you switch? e.g. your 'default' language for projects, or whatever ? 16:29:05 taylanub: my pet language, the one I want to know best and the one I use for everything I have a say on what language to use 16:29:08 my comfort language 16:29:15 i see 16:29:23 pjb: well, that's mostly decorative 16:29:59 Jafet: and it allows you to write macros. 16:30:09 taylanub: the only thing I miss from haskell is the type-system (but some schemes allow you to have types) 16:30:23 pjb: so does Haskell. 16:30:42 with template haskell you mean, Jafet? 16:30:49 (and i've just been told how awesome the type system is, when asking why one would choose haskell over scheme) 16:31:01 taylanub: indeed it's awesome. 16:31:17 rien: yes. 16:31:44 taylanub: it's indeed an awesome type system. so, you should use it when you want an awesome type system :-) 16:31:50 Jafet: don't know how relevant this is but I don't think haskellers care much about TH 16:32:19 rien: why do you think that? 16:35:17 rien: I'm also curious. I thought it was kind of a big deal? 16:39:31 Jafet: I spent a bunch of time at #haskell and they never talked about it 16:39:37 a bunch of times meaning months 16:40:00 and #haskell is very talkative 16:40:40 tronador_ [~guille@190.66.172.162] has joined #scheme 16:40:49 gtg make lunch, bbl 16:40:56 It is talked about sometimes. 16:41:35 Anyway, I feared that this topic would lead to more haskell and less scheme in this channel, and it seems to have come to pass 16:41:53 If taylanub is interested in haskell, go to #haskell. 16:45:09 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-38-142-34.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:47:54 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 16:50:00 evhan_ [~evhan@209.242.237.5] has joined #scheme 16:50:27 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-62-150.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 16:50:47 alright, here's a scheme question (though this is likely to be implementation-specific): are srfi-39 parameter objects GC'd? 16:52:44 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 16:52:45 Riastradh: Sorry about my sudden disappearance last night, but when I came back from making tea the Internet had died, so I went to bed. But, the reason I'm looking at SRFI 43 is that yesterday, two people asked about features from it in #guile, so it obviously has something that's useful to someone! 16:53:15 -!- evhan [~evhan@209.242.237.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:54:52 taylanub: Guile is obviously slower than Chicken, because it's only compiled to bytecode. But I don't think it's fair to categorise Guile as slow when there are languages like Python and Ruby enjoying mainstream popularity. :-P 16:54:55 -!- evhan_ is now known as evhan 16:56:00 taylanub: But, I'm also not sure that choosing one implementation to remain faithful to forever is that useful. Play with several, that's what I'm doing. :-) 16:57:46 evhan: they should, and you can simply test it with (define (loop) (make-parameter #f) (loop)) 16:57:55 The internet died? Oh, no, did the Senate vote for the internet kill switch and already invoke it?! 16:58:13 I think it got better again. 16:58:25 -!- evhan [~evhan@209.242.237.5] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:58:35 Oh, OK, so it was only mostly dead, and somebody pushed the `chocolate' button. 16:58:42 evhan [~evhan@209.242.237.5] has joined #scheme 16:59:09 Anyway, everything in SRFI 43 is more clearly and more efficiently, and often more concisely, expressed with foof-loop and nested-foof-loop. 17:00:22 Hm, okay. I'll look at foof-loop and see if I think I can conjure some SRFI-43-like library with it... 17:00:39 s/with/up with/ 17:00:47 sloyd: confirmed, ty (and i was mostly asking to see if there was an "official" answer :-) ) 17:00:53 No, no, you don't need a vector library for the most part. 17:01:39 Example: (vector-unfold n (lambda (i) (frobnicate zaptwoddle i))) => (collect-vector-of-length n (for i (up-from 0 (to n))) (frobnicate zaptwoddle i)) 17:02:43 *fds* 's brain churns 17:02:49 evhan, in some Scheme systems, they are not GC'd. I believe that at one time, Gauche and Chicken were such Scheme systems. But that information is probably five years stale. 17:04:53 guile 2.0 compiles to bytecode in a noticable but short time; subsequent invocations (which use the previously saved bytecode) still seem usually slower than the chicken interpreter 17:05:36 Riastradh: so, "implementation-dependent". ty very much. 17:05:56 Really, implementations *should* GC them, just like everything else. 17:06:19 (Some systems don't GC symbols either, but, again, they should.) 17:06:53 (Some systems don't even GC the values of unreferenced free variables, which is an even more serious problem.) 17:06:58 I naïvely thought I was doing this because I did need a vector library! I mean, I saw people asking `how do I do this SRFI-1-like thing with vectors instead of lists?' and I thought SRFI 43 was designed to address that situation. 17:08:04 Even if you don't like the way that SRFI 43 is implemented, wouldn't it be sensible to do... something? 17:09:01 (in some tests the guile bytecode is significantly faster though. i'm trying out these btw: http://www.larcenists.org/Twobit/benchmarksAbout.html ) 17:09:45 VECTOR-COPY! is useful, although I think that the parameter convention is a mistake (source start, target start, size is a little clearer than source start, source end, target start -- I always forget whether it's the source end or target end). Pretty much everything else is more clearly and more efficiently expressed with foof-loop than with SRFI 43, so why bother? 17:13:08 Okay.. 17:16:46 I don't mean just that the definitions of everything in SRFI 43 would be clearer; I mean that the uses would be. 17:17:23 Example: (vector-fold (lambda (index counter n) (if (even? n) (+ counter 1) counter)) 0 vec) => (collect-count (for n (in-vector vec)) (if (even? n)) 1) 17:20:38 I see. 17:21:51 *fds* reads foof-loop.txt 17:24:52 whoa, the chicken interpreter is raping my system while trying to run some tests. (slowdown to the point of total hanging) 17:26:02 it's the trav2 test it seems 17:26:28 taylanub: what chicken version are you using? also note that the interpreter is not optimized for performance since chicken is a compiler above all. 17:28:12 4.6.0 17:28:56 ok 17:29:03 http://www.larcenists.org/Twobit/src/trav2.scm is the offender 17:30:01 [panic] out of memory - cannot allocate heap segment - execution terminated 17:30:04 it what I get 17:30:20 during execution it uses up to 1.2 GB of memory it seems 17:30:56 haha, i don't have that much. well i have swap 17:31:04 (eeepc here) 17:31:12 heh alright 17:31:16 same error when compiled 17:33:13 could be a bug in chicken. guile runs it fine 17:33:20 interesting 17:34:06 would you mind filing a ticket? or should I? 17:34:47 chicken bug tracker ? 17:34:52 yesah 17:35:17 i can... 17:35:23 do you have an account? 17:35:27 oh, no 17:35:39 go forth if you do 17:36:01 sure! 17:38:17 done, thanks for the pointer! 17:38:31 ok. by the way the guile bytecode gets a better result for the sum of the .scm files in there (excluding trav2). chicken was faster for most of the ones i tried individually though (haven't tried all individually). maybe there's some certain areas where chicken needs better optimization 17:38:47 though i don't know if it would affect the compiler too 17:39:20 you could try running them compiled 17:39:31 but i'd have nothing to compare to 17:39:49 i'll see which ones are slower for the chicken interpreter though 17:40:05 ok :-) 17:40:27 Why are you comparing the performance of the Chicken interpreter? It's slow! 17:41:43 faster than guile bytecode in many cases :P 17:41:58 oh well, guile needs more optimization i guess 17:42:05 (i have a liking for it. i don't know why!) 17:44:55 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-38-142-34.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:48:35 ^mye^ [~mye@dslb-088-070-029-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 17:49:31 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:23 damn, automating the benchmarks (in the unix shell) is hard. will (have to) use 'dc' :P 17:56:59 bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has joined #scheme 18:02:40 Riastradh: there is a bug in the `filter-map' example in http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.txt I think -- it should be (procedure element) rather than (procedure list) if I am not mistaken 18:02:44 What's wrong with using dc? 18:02:49 for f in *; do echo "[[$f] p] s0"; t -f %e guile $f 2>&1; t -f %e csi -s $f 2>&1; echo \>0; done | dc # i'm a shell wizard 18:03:27 fragile code but works like a charm for this one time 18:06:34 DerGuteMoritz, yes, you're right. Obviously, I inserted the mistake deliberately to keep readers on their toes...! 18:06:59 Riastradh: I see! It seems to fulfill its purpose then :-) 18:07:21 thanks for that extensive write-up by the way, very illuminating 18:18:59 http://www.larcenists.org/Twobit/src/compiler.scm chicken is 1.9 seconds slower than guile on this ... assembly compiler ? (wtf) then there's a .8 seconds difference with test.scm and .2 seconds with slatex.scm . the rest isn't worth mentioning i guess 18:19:59 there's 12 files in total, out of 66, where chicken is always slower. in another 2 it is rarely slower. on the rest it's always faster 18:21:48 is that with Guile 2.0? 18:22:01 compiled from git yesterday 18:22:05 I see 18:22:06 interesting 18:22:23 chicken from archlinux repositories 18:24:34 augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 18:25:44 -!- Teeko [~Teeko@184.Red-83-49-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:27:39 taylanub: I, for one, should be very pleased if you find out where Guile's being slow and file bug reports about it. (Patches welcome!) :-) 18:27:52 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 18:28:48 i'm not that advanced yet, sadly 18:29:31 taylanub: Neither am I, but still, something to think about. And also talk about in #guile, if you're interested. :-) 18:29:32 and guile doesn't have any big bottlenecks like chicken seems to have. it's slower by a bit in most of them 18:29:42 oh, there's a #guile eh 18:31:30 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-103-147.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:33:21 -!- tauntaun [~Antoninus@64.134.66.212] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:55:57 jesusito [~user@110.pool85-49-242.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #scheme 19:01:32 -!- _pearle_ is now known as pearle 19:19:17 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-243.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:21:17 blueadept2 [~blueadept@cpe-24-160-96-254.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:47:27 dralston [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 19:52:39 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:02 -!- phr__ [~phr@71.141.88.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:13:25 -!- rasterbar 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