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(indirection) should work. 02:24:22 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:25:06 no, indirection still requires nested calls to FORMAT; oh, well: maybe nested format is unavoidable. 02:29:11 josephholsten [~josephhol@adsl-99-120-180-181.dsl.tul2ok.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:29:31 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@adsl-99-120-180-181.dsl.tul2ok.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:29:33 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:30:05 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #scheme 02:40:11 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:40:51 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:45:18 steshaw [~steshaw@60-240-111-207.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 02:45:30 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48:31 Why is Irken written in Python?! 02:49:05 klutometis, step 1: throw away FORMAT. 02:50:22 klutometis: If the format you're using is faithful to the CL format, (format "~vf" width 2.5) should work. 02:51:13 No, it shouldn't! But perhaps (format #f "~vf width 2.5) might. 02:53:15 Well, most Scheme formats I've seen allow elliding the #f. 02:54:05 BTW, this is a lot easier with fmt ;) 03:00:20 hello Schemers. I have a question re: racket scheme, if anyone is experienced with that implementation? 03:00:36 (long time chicken user, myself) 03:03:01 I was wondering if anyone knew whether rackets immutable lists provided the same benefits as clojures immutable data structures 03:03:12 in other words, does the racket vm share data structures (behind the scenes) when you pass a list from function to function to function 03:04:22 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-5f7696e7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:08:06 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 03:08:44 pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-d9bfdc87.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 03:12:37 imran_sr, every Scheme system goes much farther than that: passing an object as an argument does not entail copying it. But I believe the same is true in Clojure, and immutability is irrelevant. 03:14:19 Riastradh: so passing a list into a function, and eg: cons'ing something to it will just result in a new list, which has the new cons cell, plus a pointer to the previous list. ie: it won't create an entirely new list, unless someone later tries to modify the original list 03:15:25 Riastradh: are you saying this is something which all scheme's provide? I thought you could only get this with a guaranteed immutable data structure (hence the question about racket) 03:19:05 just wondering if racket's immutable lists provided it any benefits over the regular lists of other scheme implementations 03:20:34 I've just started looking at racket (as its embeddable in vim-7.3), and I've been suprised at how quick it is. I was expecting something slow. But I wrote a couple of simple benchmarks, and racket (with precompiled bytecode, 'raco make') held up well against compiled bigloo and chicken (even at -Obench for bigloo and -O5 for chicken) 03:20:47 dralston [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 03:39:53 imran_sr: It won't create a new list _even_if_ someone later tries to modify the original list. 03:40:15 Although in the default Racket language lists are immutable. 03:41:49 foof: is this (behind the scenes sharing of data structures between 2 seperate lists) something which only immutable lists provide (as I thought), or is this something which all scheme implementations do (I don't see how they can) 03:43:35 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-144-219.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:53:41 bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has joined #scheme 04:01:02 -!- dralston [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: True Grit is on TV!] 04:13:16 chobito01 [~chobito01@ool-4352510c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 04:14:08 srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #scheme 04:14:13 How can I time a function in mit-scheme? (want to see how long it takes to execute, so I can see if one algorithm is faster than the other) 04:16:19 (runtime) 04:16:53 It displays the running time of the previously executed procedure. (I think) 04:18:01 imran_sr: It's something all Scheme implementations do. 04:18:23 foof: ok 04:20:35 foof: works, thanks; regarding irken: bizarre, isn't it? 04:21:10 What is Irken? I googled it and got some weird stuff :-P 04:21:11 Riastradh: what would you use instead of format: are there any clever output combinators? i seem to remember foof (or someone) having written one. 04:21:43 fds: some sort of pseudo-typed-scheme; . 04:22:16 viz. "with type inference and a pattern-matching syntax, it could be considered ML with a lisp/scheme syntax." 04:23:05 Riastradh: ah, that's right: fmt. . 04:23:26 foof: thanks to fmt, though, format looks obselete; thanks. 04:24:25 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-23-82-248-103-231.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 04:34:34 "Release the Irken!" 04:35:02 *offby1* just saw "Clash of the Titans" 04:35:48 klutometis: Looks silly to me. :-) 04:40:32 chibi-scheme has type inference and pattern-matching syntax, it's definitely not ML :P 04:40:39 fds: indeed; someone drunk the type-coolaid. that's cool, though; i think he's just writing private toys. 04:40:54 offby1: good call; i knew that name sounded familiar. 04:41:37 klutometis: I do not, by the way, recommend the movie, unless you adhere to the "so bad it's good" school of cinematic enjoyment. 04:42:03 I first thought of Urkel... 04:42:20 Yeah, I'm sure it was (is) fun to write. I've thought about making silly variations on Scheme a few times myself 04:43:42 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-khdkwaevubwrwdks] has joined #scheme 04:43:57 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-khdkwaevubwrwdks] has quit [Changing host] 04:43:57 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 04:46:35 fds: Docs say that (runtime) returns process time since Scheme was started. The procedure they recommend for timing is (with-timings thunk receiver), where thunk is the procedure in question, and receiver gets times as arguments. 04:46:45 However, I have a function with arguments - so what can I do? 04:49:01 No idea, sorry. I was going by my vague recollection of what was written about it in SICP. 04:50:56 Well, thanks anyway. 04:52:15 You could define a thunk that just calls your real function with the arguments you want, but that seems like a dirty hack. :-P 05:02:48 offby1: that sucks; maybe i won't ruin my childhood, then. looks like hollywood suffers from the "new jersey approach," i.e. "worse is better." 05:03:53 fds: Yea, I tried that, and it seems to work fine - thanks! 05:04:34 -!- rudybot [~luser@ec2-67-202-7-151.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:40 vilsonvieira [~vilson@201.22.83.150.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #scheme 05:10:03 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:11:15 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-23-82-248-103-231.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 05:11:44 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-23-82-248-103-231.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 05:11:51 -!- chobito01 [~chobito01@ool-4352510c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:25:32 -!- Proxima|Centauri [~na@pool-72-95-157-180.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:26:55 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 05:31:32 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.66.172.182] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 05:34:20 rudybot [~luser@ec2-67-202-7-151.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 05:37:11 Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-79-176-206-190.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 05:38:42 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:41:27 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 05:50:53 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-23-82-248-103-231.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 05:51:28 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-23-82-248-103-231.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 06:02:07 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-23-82-248-103-231.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 06:05:19 -!- srid [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 06:07:48 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #scheme 06:08:13 svankie [~svankie@190.18.28.243] has joined #scheme 06:12:11 -!- ewanas [~dsc@78.101.228.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:17:42 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:18:50 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:30:10 wtfness [~dsc@78.100.210.180] has joined #scheme 06:32:07 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 06:34:59 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:48:23 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:48:56 DrDuck [~duck@216.186.151.63] has joined #scheme 06:53:01 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00:35 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:01:13 -!- steshaw [~steshaw@60-240-111-207.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: steshaw] 07:06:27 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-183-84.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:08:01 -!- svankie [~svankie@190.18.28.243] has quit [] 07:20:07 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:25:37 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-23-82-248-103-231.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 07:37:13 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@201.22.83.150.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 07:40:18 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-23-82-248-103-231.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 07:41:14 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 07:42:38 muks [~muks@misha.banu.com] has joined #scheme 07:44:46 steshaw [~steshaw@60-240-111-207.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 07:50:36 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:57:28 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:58:23 -!- muks [~muks@misha.banu.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:59:40 bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has joined #scheme 07:59:56 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-23-82-248-103-231.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 08:00:00 alcuadrado [~alcuadrad@host21.190-230-177.telecom.net.ar] has joined #scheme 08:00:20 Hi there! anyone online? 08:02:33 I've just started reading TSPL4 and wanted to recommendations about which scheme implementation (for linux) choose 08:04:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 08:04:58 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:05:56 muks [~muks@misha.banu.com] has joined #scheme 08:06:55 bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has joined #scheme 08:09:39 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:11:06 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-23-82-248-103-231.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 08:19:26 ikarus or ypsilon? 08:20:11 they are both R6RS compilant (ikarus 94% acording to it's web), and are both in ubuntu repositories 08:30:25 ikarus is abandoned 08:30:56 I don't know much about ypsilon, I don't think it's very popular. 08:31:20 R6RS isn't necessarily a good standard to aim for. 08:31:40 It split the community, and many implementations refuse to support it. 08:32:01 It remains to be seen whether the upcoming R7RS gets more support. 08:33:16 the problem is that the book uses r6rs 08:33:16 ikarus is abandoned? Why? 08:33:24 aren't there two upcoming standards? 08:33:32 or should I read the previous version? 08:33:57 Its developer seemed to invest quite some time in it and in the whole Scheme evolution process 08:34:07 The last Ikarus release was in 2008. 08:34:14 Feb 2008 08:34:15 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:34:28 yeah, I see 08:34:49 There were some commits to the repo after that, but even those not in at least 2 years or so. 08:35:09 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:35:30 adn ypsilon seems to have been developed for piballs :| haha 08:35:38 Ypsilon - The ultimate script language system for the video pinball fourth generation 08:35:42 muks: Yes, the R7RS is split into two standards. The first draft of the "small" R7RS standard is due in one week, though it's likely to be delayed slightly. 08:36:57 so R6RS isn't worth learning? 08:36:59 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 08:37:30 bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has joined #scheme 08:38:08 alcuadrado: Hard to say, but there are no major implementations pushing hard for it (not counting Chez which is commercial). 08:38:43 which are the mos popular implementations? 08:38:59 alcuadrado: If you learn R4RS or R5RS, you'll basically know enough to use any other RnRS for R>=4 08:39:08 There are still many major implementations based on R5RS, a few based on R4RS, and only one so far on R7RS. 08:39:24 My advice is to choose an implementation, not a standard, and learn that. 08:39:51 alcuadrado: I'd say Gambit, Racket and Chicken are popular 08:40:50 Any of those three will provide you with a versatile enough implementation to do most things you want to do. 08:41:08 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-23-82-248-103-231.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 08:41:14 (Although Gambit clearly has less libraries) 08:42:39 I see 08:42:54 well, I wanna learn scheme to read some PL books 08:43:01 Racket and Chicken have the most active communities with the most libraries. 08:43:05 is there any "more suitable" implementation for that? 08:43:40 If you choose Racket, you can learn it with the free online book http://www.htdp.org/ 08:44:01 Or you could read http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ with just about any impl. 08:44:10 alcuadrado: no, there is no "more suitable". Any implementation would do the job for that, I think 08:44:39 so the SICP teches scheme? I thought it was mostly about PL 08:44:52 alcuadrado: the differences between Schemes are relatively small, so it doesn't matter so much which you choose. Just try one and see if you like it, then try another, etc. 08:45:38 If you wanted to do distributed computations using an array of GPUs, there would probably be one. If you want to write factorial, learn CPS or write a type system for the lambda calculus, any implementation is enough. 08:46:23 alcuadrado: which books do you want to read? 08:47:19 I was thinking to read Programming Languages: Application and Interpretation - http://www.cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Books/ProgLangs/2007-04-26/ 08:48:05 Axioplase_, I see yout point, I only asked because I've seen many many people from the PL world who are very fanatic of scheme, so there might be a special implementation :P 08:48:45 yes, gambit :) 08:48:50 08:49:53 gambit can compile scheme to c, right? 08:50:34 Yes. But it's transparent to the user. You can get a standalone executable. 08:51:08 I wanted to see that C haha it might be interesting 08:52:03 so the SICP is suitable for a complete novice to scheme and lisp? 08:52:15 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:52:18 I've read really good reviews about that book 08:52:26 Yes it is. 08:54:16 bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has joined #scheme 08:54:20 ok, so I think I'll give it a try, and use gambit or chicken 08:54:25 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Client Quit] 08:54:46 alcuadrado: The C Gambit produces looks like a very verbose, bizarre assembler. Chicken's generated C code is a little easier to read if you ident it properly. 08:55:07 nice info :) 08:56:11 bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has joined #scheme 08:58:30 bigloo is supposed to produce human-readable C 09:00:05 alcuadrado: the author of PLAI recommends racket-5.0.2 btw 09:00:24 Stalin probably produces the most illegible C. 09:00:50 oh, how I didn't check that before? :S THANKS hkBst :) 09:01:50 NOOOOO! hkBst, you've lead him to the enemy! 09:02:55 foof: how's chibi going? 09:03:12 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:03:50 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 09:04:41 Err, bigloo does not provide TCO, does it? 09:05:17 Axioplase_: it does, but it doesn't garuantee it in 100% of cases, IIUC 09:05:30 to produce more legible C 09:06:17 well, that's kind of shitty :P 09:06:50 if you write something targeting the TCO it would suck not being optimized 09:07:03 alcuadrado: Well, you'll comment the designs of each implementation once you know them 09:07:26 Bigloo is not a toy implementation either 09:07:53 (Let's just say that it's note fully compliant to the RnRS) 09:08:02 are you the designer? sorry man 09:08:13 I'm not 09:08:21 alcuadrado: I wouldn't worry about it :) if you need fast Bigloo is one of the choices you have, besides gambit and larceny... 09:09:04 But there's a lot of work done in many compilers/interpreters, and they all deserve respect 09:09:33 sure! and it's one of the topics that interests me the most :) 09:09:35 It's not as if there was one reference implementation and just toys around 09:12:02 ikarus is also worth having a look if you need it fast 09:15:39 well, thanks for your advices :) 09:15:46 aleix [~aleix@eurk-125-99.uab.es] has joined #scheme 09:32:25 -!- steshaw [~steshaw@60-240-111-207.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: steshaw] 09:35:38 fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-190-234-83.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 09:39:12 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-190-238-142.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:52:23 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-jqmedzyjfgbiownb] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:01:11 -!- alcuadrado [~alcuadrad@host21.190-230-177.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:48 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-d9bfdc87.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:22:19 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-112-241.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:22:32 pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-d9bfc68f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 10:27:19 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-112-241.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 10:40:32 -!- fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-190-234-83.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:45:09 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:50:41 did you guys see this, btw? 10:51:11 not sure it's particularly insightful, though it does strike a chord; somewhat pseudo-psychological, perhaps. 10:55:44 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-23-82-248-103-231.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 10:56:13 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-23-82-248-103-231.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 11:02:08 paulh_ [~paulh@115-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 11:15:37 -!- imran_sr [~imran@75-18-254-4.lightspeed.uncyca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:21:20 he's not going to be making any presentations in front of the APA anytime soon, but I think there's something of a point to it. 11:29:03 Adamant: indeed; i'm not exactly sure what the "upshot" is, so to speak. maybe there is none. 11:30:13 self-knowledge, maybe 11:30:48 also, after observing LKML in action, I'm not sure his thesis for C programmers holds 11:31:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:31:27 it's about as cranky as c.l.l. 11:33:10 Adamant: which thesis: "you're liable to be social and work with others?" 11:33:16 i thought that was pretty hilarious. 11:33:24 klutometis: that 11:34:04 C is not what I consider to be a language with an especially social or asocial community 11:34:30 i don't know; i think the dude is trying to solve some non-existent problem. there's a lot of gnashing of teeth and cognitive dissonance about the state of lisp. fuck it. 11:37:39 sure, there's some asymmetry between lisp's unpopularity and the expectation, as a lisp programmer, to be worshipped by the von-neumann hordes; fuck it, though. go o'reilly on them. 11:39:59 -!- aleix [~aleix@eurk-125-99.uab.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:42:44 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-23-82-248-103-231.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: mathk] 11:50:33 C programmers definitely want to be in control 11:51:27 many C programmers won't even touch C++ with a long stick for the same reason 11:54:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 12:13:21 -!- oivindbi [oivindbi@lynx.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:13:22 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:18:31 ijp` [~user@host109-154-208-197.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 12:20:47 -!- ijp [~user@host86-163-255-123.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:21:47 masm [~masm@bl16-198-38.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 12:21:48 tauntaun [~Antoninus@208.252.23.2] has joined #scheme 12:22:05 -!- augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:22:36 augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 12:26:21 ijp`` [~user@host109-154-208-169.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 12:26:26 tronador_ [~guille@190.66.172.182] has joined #scheme 12:28:47 -!- ijp` [~user@host109-154-208-197.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:29:22 -!- ijp`` [~user@host109-154-208-169.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:38:15 bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has joined #scheme 12:45:24 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.66.172.182] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 12:49:12 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-165-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:54:25 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:56:40 -!- tauntaun [~Antoninus@208.252.23.2] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:58:23 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 13:08:03 -!- augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:09:06 augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 13:11:24 "Don't believe (or be psycho-sociologically affected by) everything on the internet" 13:14:35 -!- augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Bye] 13:15:05 augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 13:20:45 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:22:29 -!- augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:23:29 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 13:24:35 augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 13:29:14 tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has joined #scheme 13:31:15 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has quit [Client Quit] 13:32:12 tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has joined #scheme 13:34:05 -!- augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Bye] 13:34:38 augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 13:35:58 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 13:37:49 Does a scheme implementation's FFI need to explicitly handle varargs functions? 13:38:16 Assuming that it's of the PLT-ish dynamic loading type, not the compiled wrapper code type. 13:38:57 Having trouble calling a varargs function using Mosh's FFI... i.e. what type corresponds to the '...'? ;) 13:42:56 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-198-38.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:46:18 masm [~masm@bl16-198-38.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 13:56:31 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.166.185.130] has joined #scheme 13:56:31 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.166.185.130] has quit [Changing host] 13:56:32 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 14:02:23 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:02:31 tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has joined #scheme 14:04:06 The specific function I'm using does have a version taking a va_list, so if I could construct a va_list from Scheme all would be well. But va_start and the like are macros so that seems unfeasible 14:05:23 hkBst: chibi 0.4 will be out in this month 14:06:06 amoe: va_list is just the name of the unspecified representation of the parameters, so there is no portable way to construct them 14:06:16 -!- paulh_ [~paulh@115-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:07:38 _________________________ 14:08:28 Jafet: damn. do you know any examples of scheme code calling a varargs function through an FFI? 14:09:02 No, I don't know much about the FFI 14:09:10 ok 14:09:31 I guess I would have to dig through compiler output for the va_* macros and hardcode the results :/ 14:10:14 Someone here probably knows 14:11:26 amoe: Which implementation are you using? 14:12:19 cky: at the moment Mosh, but I can use any implementation 14:12:29 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 14:12:49 it has a normal-ish FFI: http://mosh.monaos.org/files/lib/mosh/ffi-ss.html 14:13:26 amoe: I ask because the devil is in the details. ;-) 14:23:20 f8l [~f8l@77-253-19-36.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #scheme 14:27:16 amoe: I've gotten _some_ sort of varargs to work with Racket's FFI. However, it doesn't mesh with stdargs in any way (I tested with printf). 14:27:23 amoe: Probably, I'm doing this all wrong. 14:27:29 Maybe eli can give you some guidance. 14:28:10 I used this: 14:28:13 (define printf (get-ffi-obj "printf" #f (_fun (fmt . args) :: (fmt : _string) -> _int))) 14:28:29 But like I said, that's not the right way to work with it. 14:28:36 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-38-142-34.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:28:37 cky: thanks! 14:28:46 As in, if I do (printf "Hello, %s!" "world"), it crashes Racket. ;-) 14:29:37 OK.... yeah, that's pretty much what happened when I tried 14:29:45 :-P 14:29:55 except mosh has no way to specify (fmt . args) like that 14:30:12 *nods* 14:30:16 Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #scheme 14:30:41 so I tried defining the last arg as a void pointer and passing a NULL in (which the library uses to mark the end of the varargs anyway) 14:30:56 but no dice still, instant segfault 14:31:26 Yeah. 14:32:33 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:46 tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has joined #scheme 14:33:03 Your example doesn't seem to crash mzscheme 4.2.1 14:33:13 instead it returns 32 and prints nothing 14:33:46 I don't have a recent racket around atm... 14:38:17 my mistake, it prints Hello, 14:38:57 if you add a \n to the format string... and returns 33 in that case :p 14:46:18 Hahahahaha. 14:46:28 Well, it returns the number of characters printed. 14:46:36 (That's what printf is specified to do.) 14:47:00 So, if nothing is printed and returns 32, that's just odd. 14:48:49 femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-164-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 14:49:37 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 14:49:45 yes. I guess it happened to find 25 bytes of binary garbage there on my machine 14:50:06 FFI is fun 14:50:08 Perhaps they were ^H 14:52:08 actually the invisibility was because I left out the "\n" 14:52:19 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 14:52:42 which interacts with mzscheme's reader buffering in some way I guess 14:52:59 but it's nicer to think they were all ^H ;) 14:53:11 jesusito [~user@77.Red-80-58-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:04:05 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:06:52 gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has joined #scheme 15:16:31 ddvlad [~ddvlad@141.85.37.251] has joined #scheme 15:16:58 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:17:07 hi, is there a predefined function for the list of numbers from a to b? i know i can write it myself, but i waas wondering what the right(tm) way to do it is 15:17:23 kind of (x 1 3) -> (1 2 3) 15:18:00 ddvlad: usually, it's called iota. You may find it in a library, but it's really a one-liner... 15:18:41 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 15:18:44 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #scheme 15:19:13 pjb: so it's not used that frequently, it's acceptable to write my own? 15:20:15 I have one in my own library. 15:20:34 You could search if there's something like it in the SRFIs, but since it's a one-liner, it would be faster to just write it. 15:21:01 Actually, we already invested more time than it's worth to explain this right now! 15:21:27 i found iota in srfi/1, was just wordering if it's widely used 15:21:29 It really should be a no-brainer. Why did you ask in the first place? 15:21:53 pjb: well, if i wrote it in haskell, someone would quickly point out that it's just [1..n] 15:21:56 ddvlad: don't you load srfi/1 by default? 15:22:08 hmm, no, i don't 15:22:09 ddvlad: yes, it'd be in the language library. 15:22:40 ddvlad: perhaps that's the problem. You should load a set of libraries, be it SRFIs or personnal libraries always first thing first. 15:23:05 pjb: ah, i see, thank you for the tip :) 15:23:18 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:23:29 And when you write programs, as soon as you write a function that could be used in another program, you should store it in your personal library instead of keeping it with your specific program sources. 15:24:54 i'm somewhat aware of that, i'm just coming from a place where whenever i'd write a function it'd already have been there 15:25:16 think  "function that always returns 1, oh that's simple", then i'd find out it's just "const 1" 15:25:17 Well, that's often the case lisp, true. 15:26:01 That's why it's nice to know the libraries catalogs, and to have on-line documentation system, with functions such as apropos, describe and documentation. (They're standard in CL, I guess some scheme implementations have something similar). 15:26:50 Yes, in CL we have (constantly 1). It can also be named (lambda (&rest args) 1) or (lambda args 1) in scheme. 15:27:51 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 15:27:51 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 15:27:51 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 15:27:52 I don't know CL, I'm just now brushing up on my Scheme; it's a school assignment, somewhat :) 15:28:25 Don't worry. It's just I'm more a Common Lisper than a schemer, but they're both in the lisp familly, and share a lot of culture. 15:29:07 Thanks for the time, I'll get back to my simple ant simulation now :) 15:29:50 *pjb* should read the SRFIs, but I don't program in scheme enough to need them really... 15:30:32 rudybot: (require srfi/1) 15:30:33 cky: your racket sandbox is ready 15:30:33 cky: Done. 15:30:41 rudybot: (iota 1 2) 15:30:41 cky: ; Value: (2) 15:30:46 rudybot: (iota 2 1) 15:30:46 cky: ; Value: (1 2) 15:30:48 rudybot: (iota 3 1) 15:30:48 cky: ; Value: (1 2 3) 15:30:54 Great! 15:30:55 ddvlad: There you go. :-P 15:31:24 ddvlad: To answer your question about whether it's widely used, I think it is, yes. 15:31:42 ddvlad: It's certainly the standard way to generate a range, as far as I know. 15:32:39 cky: cool, thanks 15:32:50 :-) 15:32:59 rudybot: (require srfi/26) 15:32:59 cky: Done. 15:33:14 rudybot: (define (constantly x) (cut x)) 15:33:14 cky: Done. 15:33:27 rudybot: (define fourty-two (constantly 42)) 15:33:28 cky: Done. 15:33:31 rudybot: (fourty-two) 15:33:31 cky: error: procedure application: expected procedure, given: 42 (no arguments) 15:33:38 Whoops. 15:34:18 rudybot: (define (constantly x) (cut values x)) 15:34:18 cky: Done. 15:34:41 rudybot: (define fourty-two (constantly 42)) 15:34:41 cky: Done. 15:34:43 rudybot: (fourty-two) 15:34:43 cky: ; Value: 42 15:34:46 \o/ 15:35:11 More generally... 15:35:24 (define (constantly . args) (lambda _ (values args))) 15:35:26 tauntaun [~Antoninus@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 15:35:28 rudybot: (define (constantly . args) (lambda _ (values args))) 15:35:28 cky: Done. 15:35:44 rudybot: (define more (constantly 42 43)) 15:35:44 cky: Done. 15:35:53 rudybot: (more 'ignored) 15:35:53 cky: ; Value: (42 43) 15:36:06 rudybot: (define (constantly . args) (lambda _ (values args))) 15:36:06 pjb: your sandbox is ready 15:36:06 pjb: Done. 15:36:12 rudybot: (constantly 22) 15:36:12 pjb: ; Value: # 15:36:21 rudybot: ((constantly 22)) 15:36:22 pjb: ; Value: (22) 15:36:32 rudybot: (values 1 2 3) 15:36:32 cky: ; Value: 1 15:36:33 cky: ; Value#2: 2 15:36:34 cky: ; Value#3: 3 15:36:35 rudybot: (define (constantly args) (lambda _ args)) 15:36:35 pjb: Done. 15:36:36 rudybot: ((constantly 22)) 15:36:36 pjb: ; Value: 22 15:36:42 that's more like it... 15:36:58 rudybot: (define (constantly args) (lambda _ (values args))) 15:36:58 pjb: Done. 15:37:01 rudybot: ((constantly 22)) 15:37:01 pjb: ; Value: 22 15:37:06 ok. 15:37:07 rudybot: (define (constantly . args) (lambda _ (apply values args))) 15:37:07 cky: Done. 15:37:12 There, I was missing an apply. 15:37:15 rudybot: (define more (constantly 42 43)) 15:37:15 cky: Done. 15:37:18 rudybot: (more 'ignored) 15:37:18 cky: ; Value: 42 15:37:19 cky: ; Value#2: 43 15:37:22 \o/ 15:37:42 Is it a r6rs? 15:37:56 pjb: What, constantly? I don't think it's standardised anywhere. 15:37:58 It seems to deal with multiple values better than r5rs. 15:38:14 No, I mean the way rudybot deals with multiple values. 15:38:17 Oh, you mean Racket. Yes, Racket implements R6RS, but MV works in R5RS too. 15:38:32 Yes, but by r5rs, they're not so convenient to use. 15:38:55 Not sure what you meant by "not so convenient", actually. 15:39:45 You have to use call-with-values to collect them. 15:39:55 (define more (constantly 42 43)) would not work AFAIK in r5rs. 15:40:24 incubot: (define (constantly . args) (lambda _ (apply values args))) 15:40:25 # 15:40:34 incubot: (define two-val (constantly 42 43)) 15:40:34 # 15:40:39 incubot: (two-val) 15:40:39 Error: unbound variable: two-val 15:40:44 O_o 15:41:17 That was definitely the last error message I expected to see! 15:41:44 incubot: constantly 15:41:48 Q: are you the guy who constantly gets punctures? A: yes 15:41:52 incubot: (constantly 42 43) 15:41:52 # 15:41:54 cky: huh, I thought racket had something like "constantly" built in, but I can't find it 15:42:05 offby1: *nods* 15:42:06 pjb, you mean that (define more ((constantly 42 43))) would not work in the R5RS, and it doesn't work in the R6RS either. It works only by accident in Common Lisp because Common Lisp is very happy to mask lots of legitimate errors... 15:42:08 rudybot: constantly 15:42:08 offby1: I get these constantly 15:42:14 what, punctures? 15:42:31 incubot: eval (two-val) 15:42:31 Error: unbound variable: two-val 15:43:21 cky, anyway, if you don't use the `eval' keyword, incubutt is likely to regurgitate some random line somebody said in the channel in the past. 15:43:28 Riastradh: *nods* 15:43:31 incubot: eval two-val 15:43:34 eval (eval '(+ 1 2) (scheme-report-environment 5)) 15:43:40 O_o 15:43:50 Riastradh: I see that even with eval, it still does that. 15:44:01 -!- tauntaun is now known as tautaun_away 15:44:13 incubot: (define foo (constantly 42 43)) 15:44:14 # 15:44:17 incubot: (foo) 15:44:17 Error: unbound variable: foo 15:44:32 incubot: (constantly 42 43) 15:44:32 # 15:44:39 incubot: ((constantly 42 43)) 15:44:39 42 15:44:41 -!- rins` is now known as rins 15:44:48 incubot: (begin (define foo (constantly 42 43)) (foo 'x 'y 'z)) 15:44:48 42 15:44:55 offby1: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/procedures.html#%28def._%28%28lib._racket/function..rkt%29._const%29%29 15:44:55 http://tinyurl.com/4awbzkl 15:45:05 incubot: (call-with-values (lambda () ((constantly 42 43))) list) 15:45:05 (42 43) 15:45:24 Well, I'm glad that works. 15:45:38 rudybot: (const 1 2 3) 15:45:38 cky: error: procedure const: expects 1 argument, given 3: 1 2 3 15:47:41 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 15:48:56 sloyd: yeah! thanks 15:49:10 rudybot: (curry const 1 2 3) 15:49:10 offby1: your racket sandbox is ready 15:49:10 offby1: ; Value: # 15:49:12 offby1: As you can see above, const doesn't support multiple values. ;-) 15:49:16 rudybot: ((curry const) 1 2 3) 15:49:16 offby1: ; Value: # 15:49:19 *sigh* 15:49:32 rudybot: yow 15:49:32 offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: yow in module: 'program 15:49:33 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:49:36 *offby1* slaps rudybot upside the haid 15:51:25 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:56:01 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:59 -!- tautaun_away is now known as tautaun 16:07:38 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 16:07:38 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 16:07:38 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 16:08:17 -!- jimrees__ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:09:07 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:16:46 http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html?1 16:17:31 Not exactly the most interesting EWD IMO. 16:18:02 http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ 16:18:41 A blogger before the blogs, the web, even the Internet existed! :-) 16:18:59 A grumpy blogger. 16:19:11 :) 16:26:45 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:29:43 .oO("EWD"?) 16:29:59 ah 16:34:48 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 16:34:48 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 16:34:48 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 16:37:07 thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has joined #scheme 16:37:28 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has left #scheme 16:38:19 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:38:47 -!- Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:38:53 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:39:31 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-164-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:44:12 -!- tautaun [~Antoninus@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:44:28 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:50:30 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:51:42 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 16:54:59 pdlogan [~patrick@75-175-5-194.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 16:56:09 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 16:57:30 tautaun [~Antoninus@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 17:01:10 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 17:01:35 -!- tautaun [~Antoninus@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:01:52 -!- tonyg [~tonyg@navarone.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:57 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:06:18 bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has joined #scheme 17:09:07 -!- githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:26 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:31 tautaun [~Antoninus@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 17:11:55 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12:40 jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 17:14:34 bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has joined #scheme 17:18:48 Kruppe [~user@134.117.27.222] has joined #scheme 17:22:27 taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD936BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:22:46 scheme is call-by-name, yes? currently "name" vs. "symbol" is confusing me 17:24:13 The terms `call-by-name' and `call-by-value' are needlessly confusing. I suggest that you avoid them. 17:24:49 hrmm, i see 17:25:23 `Pass-by-identity' and `pass-by-copy' are much clearer terms, I think. In Scheme (and Java and Python and lots of languages), arguments are passed by identity; in C (and C++ and a few other languages), they are passed by copy. 17:25:55 ah, now i see better :) 17:26:21 (In C++ one can also pass objects by identity, if one asks for it with `references'.) 17:26:37 pointers, you mean? 17:26:57 No, I mean references. Pointers are different. 17:27:11 If you don't know C++, don't worry about it. 17:27:17 oh, &foo, right ? 17:27:25 Suffice it to say that C passes arguments by copy. 17:27:27 (i know C a little) 17:27:52 the value of &foo is a pointer though (or not?) 17:27:59 -!- jesusito [~user@77.Red-80-58-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:42 Yes. You can indirectly refer to an object by a pointer, and you can pass copies of the pointer as arguments still referring to the same object, but you can't ever pass the object itself as an argument in C. 17:29:44 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:30:06 where "the object itself" is the name of the object, saved where again ? 17:30:41 "Call by name" refers to something different entirely, that is found in few languages today 17:32:27 except, say bash ;) 17:32:49 or perl, I guess. 17:33:07 surely everything is possible in perl ;) 17:33:15 sh passes arguments by copy. Dunno about bash and Perl, though. 17:33:35 -!- tautaun [~Antoninus@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:33:46 Well, passing a function containing the name is equivalent to call by name (but using delay-force is not) 17:34:01 Actually, no, that's not right; strings aren't mutable in sh, and all arguments are strings, so one can't distinguish passing by identity and passing by copy in sh, except perhaps pragmatically by observing performance. 17:35:01 bash is mostly sh. the command line is parsed for substitutions, then executed. there's some that do "parsing magic" though. like 'case $variable in ...' (both sh and bash), or '[[ $foo ... ]]' (bash), etc. (also note that double-quotation makes no difference in those cases) 17:35:12 tautaun [~Antoninus@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 17:35:36 -!- tautaun [~Antoninus@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:35:51 Yes, taylanub, but bash also has data structures other than strings, unlike sh. 17:37:30 And, more importantly, these data structures are mutable, so one can semantically (not just pragmatically) distinguish passing them by identity versus copy. 17:37:41 which are these ? 17:37:54 Arrays, for instance. 17:39:03 well when constructing an argv, they're still expanded entirely. don't know about other cases 17:40:11 dralston [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 17:41:11 tauntaun [~Antoninus@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 17:44:32 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:44:40 HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-161-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 17:45:28 zsh at least appears to pass arguments by copy. 17:45:37 Pepe_ [~ppjet@static.205.131.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 17:45:47 I don't have bash handy, though, and the only shell scripts I write are sh scripts. 17:46:00 what OS ? 17:48:00 sh scripts? scsh! 17:48:04 NetBSD 17:48:18 If scsh weren't badly broken, I'd use that. 17:48:37 This is free software, repair it! :-) 17:48:40 mit-scsh :) 17:48:44 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-238.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:48:57 Takes a lot of effort, pjb. 17:51:17 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 17:56:29 All shells pass the arguments by expansion, and therefore implicitely by copy. 17:56:50 i've had the misfortune of using Tcsh a while ago 17:58:40 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-238.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:00:54 -!- ada2358 [~ada2358@login.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:08 the shells of the future will be the rc-inspired family. see inferno's sh, and es. rc itself is too minimal for productivity i guess 18:06:54 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:20 bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has joined #scheme 18:09:07 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 18:10:21 -!- tauntaun [~Antoninus@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:15:04 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:15:56 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 18:15:56 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 18:15:56 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 18:17:33 scsh? Scheme shell? 18:17:47 Yes. 18:18:02 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #scheme 18:18:12 -!- dralston [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:18:48 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #scheme 18:22:06 The future has shells? 18:22:15 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:31 I would have missed the memo. 18:25:36 Yes, the future of shells will be something not too dissimilar to scsh. The input UI would be styled after Paredit so that people don't have to think about brackets as they enter their shell commands. 18:25:45 It will all just work, and all be beautiful. ;-) 18:25:57 the future's so bright, I gotta wear shells 18:26:04 :-D 18:27:00 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 18:27:07 githogori [~githogori@2.sub-75-210-20.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 18:30:03 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:31:24 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:35:07 scsh still uses sexpressions, no ? 18:35:14 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 18:35:48 you DO want something similar to the traditional sh syntax. es for example translates familiar sh syntax to an s-expression alike notation which can be written in directly 18:36:54 es syntax looks gruesome 18:37:25 scsh does not use s-exprs exclusively, there's a translation layer from a shell-like syntax, iirc 18:41:08 which part of the es syntax? the normal one or the "internal" one ? 18:41:18 internal one, from the paper 18:41:32 well yeah, it seemed like a big hack to me too 18:42:39 but the idea is golden. i wish for a more mature shell in that spirit. maybe i'll do it one day 18:42:52 (that day would be far far away) 18:45:24 commander s seemed fun, but haven't seen anything about it for a while 18:45:43 -> http://www.deinprogramm.de/scheme-2005/05-knauel/05-knauel.pdf 18:45:46 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:50 lbc [~quassel@0909ds1-sdb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 18:46:16 I seem to recall that Commander S was a term project, and when the term was over its author stopped working on it. 18:46:31 -!- lbc [~quassel@0909ds1-sdb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 18:46:42 lbc [~quassel@0909ds1-sdb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 18:46:43 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:47:17 -!- lbc [~quassel@0909ds1-sdb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 18:47:27 lbc [~quassel@0909ds1-sdb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 18:47:54 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-238.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:48:00 -!- bharath_g [~bharath10@117.211.88.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:01 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-238.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:51:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:47 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:52:19 lambda calculus works so great in scheme 18:52:55 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-238.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:53:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-238.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:55:19 CL is a total pain. by the way, is the reason i can see the name of a resulting lambda in scheme, but not in python or CL, a trivial matter of how the final result is displayed, or some pass-by-whatever issue ? 18:56:17 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:13 a trivial matter 19:01:14 -!- wtfness is now known as ewanas 19:01:24 good 19:01:34 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:03:45 shells and whatknot... symbolics lisp machines had a lisp listener (repl) that understood commands, kind of like interactive emacs functions on sterioids... 19:03:46 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/Symbolics-document-examiner.png 19:03:47 http://tinyurl.com/6xuod65 19:23:34 pdlogan: looks suspiciously like gnu emacs... 19:23:56 I mean, gnu emacs l ooks suspciously like Symbolics document examiner. 19:25:07 acme is also similar 19:25:16 (and so is Oberon). 19:25:19 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 19:25:27 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:26:03 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:26:24 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #scheme 19:28:14 davazp [~user@201.Red-88-6-204.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:30:24 -!- ddvlad [~ddvlad@141.85.37.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:32:40 pjb: first there was emacs then there was the lisp machine + emacs then there was the lisp machine + emacs + command processor (then there was gnu emacs...) 19:32:43 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:33:38 Somehow, I doubt TECO emacs had multiple-windows. 19:34:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:34:22 document examiner is not unlike and probably inspired by emac's original INFO system 19:34:23 it had macros. that's half of lisp already, right? 19:34:56 Not all macros are created equal 19:35:07 teco macros are like line noise 19:35:11 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-238.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:35:20 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35:39 Or should that be s/macros/macro systems/ 19:35:46 it did have emacs windows - similar to non-gui emacs 19:35:48 gnu 19:37:25 paulh_ [~paulh@115-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 19:40:03 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:40:38 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 19:41:13 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 19:42:05 -!- augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:44:35 augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 19:49:05 -!- augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Bye] 19:50:47 jesusito [~user@110.pool85-49-242.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #scheme 19:52:06 augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 19:52:32 cuge1 [908e0c4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.144.142.12.78] has joined #scheme 19:52:45 wow siag office kicks ass what a nice scheme gui office app! 20:00:06 -!- augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Bye] 20:00:19 -!- cuge1 [908e0c4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.144.142.12.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:00:58 mye [~mye@dslc-082-082-067-136.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 20:01:24 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:01:37 augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 20:08:13 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 20:08:13 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 20:08:13 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 20:09:06 -!- augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Bye] 20:09:35 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 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[~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-11.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:50:10 _danb_ [~user@203.38.189.126] has joined #scheme 21:53:47 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 21:56:31 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-164-184.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 22:07:40 would you agree that scheme is less powerful than CL ? 22:08:04 you might argue that about the respective standard libraries 22:09:35 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:09:40 implying that the language itself doesn't matter that much ? 22:10:12 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:10:27 implying that Scheme is not inferior to CL as a language :) 22:10:44 taylanub: what is your definition of power? 22:11:00 why in hell are people in #scheme who argue seriously about how much better CL is? 22:11:09 convenience in programming large-scale real-world applications 22:11:36 i'm a noob, i just wanted to hear what scheme fans say 22:11:53 fantazo: Surely you don't think one should be banned from #scheme for thinking another language is better, do you? 22:12:03 so far what i heard is "scheme = mathematical beauty, common lisp = ugly but very powerful" 22:12:03 most programmers would argue that neither Scheme nor CL are fit for large-scale real-world applications :P 22:13:04 taylanub: I don't think there's anything about Scheme that makes it true. But you could say that about their respective standards :-P 22:13:12 fds, not really. but I just doubt the intentions of those people. normally a programming language channel is about how much people did cool stuff with language X, where X is also the name of the channel. 22:13:39 ecraven, karma++ 22:14:00 fantazo: Yes, I agree with you there. (And for the record, I think Scheme is much better than CL, but I still idle in #lisp :-P) 22:14:15 tauntaun [~Antoninus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 22:14:36 But, I don't think I've ever mentioned that fact in #lisp 22:14:42 fds, I idle in #lisp too, but just for the thing that the channel is about lisp, which isn't per definition CL. 22:14:57 -!- Sveklo [~sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:08 I like scheme for its simplicity. 22:15:11 they told me it's about CL the other day 22:15:30 the topic says so too 22:15:35 then they should think again about their naming conventions. 22:15:39 they say 'lisp' for CL i think 22:15:50 fantazo: Well, I believe it was originally created to discuss SBCL development and although it has now expanded it is pretty much CL-only 22:15:55 they answer questions about lisp machine lisp too :) 22:16:34 Right, but not other `mainstream' Lisps like Scheme, Emacs Lisp or Clojure, for example 22:17:09 no, you need to go to the respective channels for that 22:17:25 Indeed 22:17:37 I'm not complaining about this situation. 22:18:05 the only thing which scheme lacks in my opinion is a convention for module systems. as it actually boils down to write a module importing macro for each application, which someone designs. 22:18:55 but that changed with R6RS, lets see how much people incoporate those changes. 22:19:00 in the implementations. 22:20:03 wow - never knew about siag before office. 22:21:46 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-166184.home.otenet.gr] has joined #scheme 22:23:52 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:25:45 what's a module, in scheme ? 22:26:57 Ha! 22:27:53 I think that they're still arguing on whether it belongs to "The Small Scheme" or to "The Big Scheme". 22:28:12 taylanub: right now that's an implementation dependant question afaik 22:28:35 why not just include a file of function definitions ? :P 22:28:38 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:28:51 *taylanub* is a noob in programming in general, i guess 22:28:52 taylanub: because it sucks. 22:29:18 taylanub: name collisions is one of the biggest reasons 22:29:44 well, we bet CL on Android I believe ;) kawa is very much usable, I don't know of any CL that runs on Android 22:30:07 ecraven: ABCL and ECL do already :p 22:30:33 never found those while googling :) 22:30:39 Organizing programs sensibly is not an easy problem, taylanub. 22:30:44 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:30:49 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-165-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 22:31:51 *ASau* can't decide what is worse, organizing it wrong or not doing it at all. 22:33:40 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 22:33:47 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 22:33:47 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 22:34:07 *pjb* can't decide what is wrong, organizing it wrong, or doing it at all. 22:34:47 *ASau* smells maximalist. 22:35:00 maxima lisp! 22:35:19 There's no "maxima lisp" :p 22:35:31 -!- lbc [~quassel@0909ds1-sdb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:35:33 THere's a maxima and it's written in lisp. 22:35:41 It is written in Common Lisp. 22:35:43 Yes. 22:35:59 ASau: modules are required by the wg1 charter ( http://www.scheme-reports.org/2009/working-group-1-charter.html ): "must include support for [...] modules" 22:36:09 And since it defines extensions (eg as macros), we can name that language, the maxima lisp. 22:40:41 -!- Kruppe [~user@134.117.27.222] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:41:00 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 22:42:35 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-165-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:45:16 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-165-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:47:39 chrissbx [~chrissbx@69-196-152-229.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 22:48:26 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C43651.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:48:57 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:49:30 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-152.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:52:33 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-11.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:52:46 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 22:52:46 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 22:52:46 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 22:55:54 any opinions on mit/gnu scheme ? 22:57:34 Ask Riastradh. :-) 23:00:01 Are guile and gnu scheme separate projects? 23:00:03 But, it definitely isn't a bad implementation, as one might expect of MIT. It doesn't have a large/active community though, in my experience 23:00:24 I think that there are three GNU Schemes; MIT-Scheme, Guile and SCM 23:01:07 (I'm not sure which you mean by `GNU Scheme') 23:01:37 There is no `GNU Scheme'. There's Guile, and there's MIT/GNU Scheme (historically, and still casually, called `MIT Scheme'). 23:05:03 -!- f8l [~f8l@77-253-19-36.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 23:06:37 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 23:06:53 Hm, and there's SCM. It says it's official GNU software. It seems a little mysterious though. 23:08:37 Kruppe [~user@134.117.254.249] has joined #scheme 23:08:49 scm's been around a long time - aubrey jaffer iirc - also led to scmlib which'd been ported to multiple schemes back in the day as one of the first portable lib for scheme. 23:10:18 Guile was originally derived from SCM. 23:10:37 scmlib -> slib -- sorry 23:10:50 Before SCM became GNU software, I imagine? 23:11:14 I've wandered around Aubrey Jaffer's pages at csail.mit.edu before and it seems like he's still doing stuff, but, I don't know. I prefer projects with IRC channels. 23:11:40 slib is `portable' only in the sense that it is theoretically capable of running on lots of Scheme systems. It is useless as a library. 23:11:47 Heh 23:12:42 well there was a time when that was the shining example -- well, example -- of portability. 23:13:09 you wrote a compatibility layer to get it to run on whatever scheme you had, if there was none 23:14:11 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:14:31 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:15:03 Compatibility layers are fine. What slib does is not. It is useless as a library. It is basically its own Scheme environment, bootstrapping off some host Scheme's built-in EVAL. 23:16:10 I am not suggesting you adopt it - just saying it has history back when most people weren't trying to get much of anything to run across different schemes. 23:16:33 Are people trying to do that today? 23:16:44 *Ahem* 23:17:58 I've been out of the loop quite a while - I wouldn't know 23:18:44 No, fds, usually they either stick to one implementation or flop around pretending that the R6RS or slib or some other nonsense like that makes code `portable' without actually getting much done. 23:19:08 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:19:20 there you have it 23:19:41 That's the impression I've gotten. 23:21:13 mye^ [~mye@dslc-082-082-084-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 23:22:23 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:24:00 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 23:24:33 -!- mye [~mye@dslc-082-082-067-136.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:27:03 mit scheme seems to include a lot of miscellaneous stuff. i see http-client, http-syntax, and httpio .bci files, but no docs about this 23:28:24 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:32:13 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 23:36:07 tronador_ [~guille@190.66.172.182] has joined #scheme 23:37:59 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 23:38:16 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 23:42:04 tupi [~david@189.60.162.71] has joined #scheme 23:46:21 josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has joined #scheme 23:46:41 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:50:19 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has joined #scheme 23:50:19 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.204] has quit [Changing host] 23:50:19 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 23:51:00 eww, functions for file-path manipulation make a distinction between file "name" and "type", where the "type" is just the part that comes after a dot in the real name 23:51:25 very un-unixish. even windowsish. 23:55:13 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-11.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:13 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-11.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:50 -!- augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:57:07 augiedoggie [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme