00:02:14 mimi [~mimi@94-225-197-41.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 00:02:37 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 00:03:49 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 00:04:32 -!- Prometheus__ [~heyy@CPE0023cdd441d7-CM001947479c3c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Prometheus__] 00:04:44 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 00:08:31 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09:40 -!- parolang [~user@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:11:46 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.230.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:27:28 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:28:38 -!- mimi [~mimi@94-225-197-41.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:30:53 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 00:31:15 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:38:25 -!- dmv_ [~daniel@187.10.44.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:41:55 -!- erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:49:30 erjiang [42f45007@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.244.80.7] has joined #scheme 00:49:43 -!- erjiang [42f45007@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.244.80.7] has quit [Client Quit] 00:50:49 parolang [~user@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 00:51:26 Kind of a strange question, but I'm sort of learning scheme and programming at the same time. 00:51:43 But everything I read says that 0.1 can't be represented exactly. 00:52:01 That is correct, if we're talking about IEEE-754 floating point. 00:52:01 But I type 0.1 in guile and it returns 0.1...why isn't there a slight error? 00:52:13 parolang: Because Guile rounds the number before displaying it, probably. 00:52:25 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:39 nisstyre_netbook [~wes@216.16.226.154] has joined #scheme 00:52:44 Hmm. 00:54:42 -!- nisstyre_netbook is now known as Nisstyre65 00:55:11 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:55:16 -!- Nisstyre65 is now known as Nisstyre 00:55:38 wes__ [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 00:55:47 parolang: don't worry about floating point, that's a long and boring road :) 00:56:53 Heh...would it be strange if I said I find it interesting? :) 01:01:12 parolang: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_tower 01:01:58 no, not at all. 01:02:20 I think the issue I want to resolve is to be able to say how much error there is in an arbitrary floating point value. 01:02:54 parolang: That's hard to say, because that value may have undergone other operations that have degraded it further. 01:02:59 What you need is interval arithmetic. 01:03:45 cky: Yeah...after repeated operations, the error increases...but by how much? 01:03:59 Well, different operations affect the error differently. 01:04:06 yeah 01:04:38 So, an interval arithmetic library provides operations for all intervals. It will adjust the interval as necessary, based on how much error the operation introduces. 01:04:50 But...there's no way you guys know of to get at the bit representation of a floating point number? I realize this is probably implementation/machine-specific. 01:05:08 Most systems these days use IEEE-754, and that is not machine-specific. 01:05:50 Are IEEE-754 flonums unique for each value? 01:06:08 With the exception of denormal values, yes. 01:06:32 Yeah...that's one of the things I haven't understood yet...denormal values. 01:07:26 (I'm also reading "What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic.") 01:09:46 parolang: In a nutshell, denormal values are values that are too small (close to zero) to represent using the usual representation. 01:10:01 Okay, thanks. 01:10:51 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 01:12:11 -!- seamus-android [~alistair@cpc1-brig7-0-0-cust565.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:13:50 Can you overload arithmetic/mathematical operators in scheme? For instance, if you want to add a number-type to the numerical tower (e.g., to use interval-arithmetic)? 01:17:38 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:18:06 maybe using syntax-case ? 01:18:06 Not usually. If you use a CLOS-like object system like Swindle, Coops, Goops, etc., then the arithmetic operators are generic, and you can write your own specialisations. 01:18:11 rien: No. 01:18:21 rien: Macros are type-agnostic. 01:18:42 oh because they're at compile-time and only values have types, right. 01:19:38 cky: Okay. Since I'm using Guile, I think that will work. Thanks. 01:19:43 *nods* 01:23:17 xwl_ [~wixu@nat/nokia/x-joqlbwzclthkcfyh] has joined #scheme 01:24:31 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:26:56 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-195.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:36:52 vilsonvieira [~vilson@187.112.204.12] has joined #scheme 01:39:01 -!- f8l [~f8l@81.219.162.22] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 01:39:34 No IEEE 754 floating-point value (in any given format) represents a number in common with any other IEEE 754 floating-point value -- not even if one of the values is subnormal. 01:40:43 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 01:41:17 Okay, I stand corrected. 01:54:19 Riastradh: Thanks. So I shouldn't need to look at the representation, just know it is IEEE-754 and I can compute the representation. 01:57:34 -!- Nisstyre [~wes@216.16.226.154] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:58:02 -!- wes__ [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:58:12 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 02:01:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-18.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:24:29 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:27:36 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 02:28:13 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:29:16 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:39:05 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:48:44 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:52:12 Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-27-39-176.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 02:53:00 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-27-39-176.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00:59 pytho [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has joined #scheme 03:05:33 hi guys, can someone help me fix this code? it's supposed to take 3 numbers, square them, and return the sum of the squares. i get the incorrect # of arguments to procedure error and don't know how to fix it 03:05:43 the code is here: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=pBHe3eZ3 03:05:59 Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-27-39-176.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 03:06:39 -!- copumpkin is now known as coconut_ 03:06:56 -!- coconut_ is now known as copumpkin 03:08:16 Seus [~Seus@adsl-99-114-191-45.dsl.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:12:14 pytho: Well, that's certainly not what your code does. 03:12:37 Hint: if it wants to take three numbers, your lambda list will look like (x y z), and not just (x). 03:13:57 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #scheme 03:15:07 that's a good point. i didn't know there could be more than one word/variable in lambda 03:16:05 Oh, yes. One per parameter. 03:16:48 pytho: scheme lambdas are fully fledged functions. they're not like python lambdas 03:17:00 they're just procedures with no name that are applied then and there 03:17:14 ahh i see 03:17:22 lambdas are the central concept in Scheme. 03:17:31 _Everything_ in Scheme is built around lambdas. 03:17:32 I thought lists were?:p 03:17:41 Well, lists too, in terms of data. 03:17:43 -!- parolang [~user@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:17:53 Lambdas in terms of the "doing" stuff. 03:17:55 I thought it was ... turtles 03:18:00 offby1: Nice. :-) 03:18:24 Fine. Everything in Scheme is built around lambdas and lists, and it's turtles all the way down. :-P 03:18:32 in other news, game programming in racket is not going so well. maybe i am better off embedding as opposed to writing a C lib and calling it 03:18:46 O_o 03:19:32 cky: anything in particular you are shocked about?:P 03:20:28 Just that things aren't going well. 03:20:37 I mean, Scheme > *, so it should be all hunky dory, right? :-P 03:21:03 haha 03:21:41 basically i am stopped in my tracks by a "SIGSEGV MAPERR si_code 1 fault on addr 0x100004" error. google is helpless (but they all seem to be about racket), so don't exactly know what to do from here 03:21:43 -!- Seus [~Seus@adsl-99-114-191-45.dsl.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Seus] 03:21:55 -!- pytho [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:22:00 might see if I can suss out how to embed a scheme 03:22:15 pytho [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has joined #scheme 03:22:37 Seus [~Seus@99.114.191.45] has joined #scheme 03:23:00 it's that or have my entire 2d map structure live inside a C library...which i think somewhat goes against the point of a library 03:23:49 -!- Seus [~Seus@99.114.191.45] has quit [Client Quit] 03:24:35 lewis1711: oh, you'll get past that. Ask eli in #racket, or on the mailing list. 03:24:57 erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has joined #scheme 03:25:31 offby1: hmm, what's mailing list etiquette about posting code? should I just link to a pastebin or something? 03:26:24 posting up to 50 lines or so is fine 03:26:32 (still has to figure out how to stop his mailbox flooding) 03:26:37 ah 03:26:38 pastebins don't really make sense for mailing lists 03:27:47 i still think in general embedding may be a cleaner choice though 03:27:49 hmm 03:28:16 cky: i got it to add the numbers and then square the result :P 03:31:02 pytho: So do it. :-P 03:32:29 Seus [~Seus@99.114.191.45] has joined #scheme 03:35:09 -!- Seus [~Seus@99.114.191.45] has quit [Client Quit] 03:37:47 still working on it 03:37:53 :-) 03:39:05 Seus [~Seus@99.114.191.45] has joined #scheme 03:40:53 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:43:24 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 03:43:48 does guile have an equivalent for `expand` 03:45:37 -!- Seus [~Seus@99.114.191.45] has quit [Quit: Seus] 03:46:44 how many arguments can stem from one procedure? just 2? 03:47:33 stem from? 03:47:41 are you asking how many values an expression can return? 03:47:54 i think the answer either way is "as many as you want" 03:48:31 erjiang: You mean macroexpand? 03:48:39 erjiang: Or do you mean something else? 03:49:17 offby1: no, if i have one procedure, how many arguments can i create? 03:49:35 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-pnjzhkahckljevqy] has joined #scheme 03:49:35 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-pnjzhkahckljevqy] has quit [Changing host] 03:49:35 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 03:49:48 pytho: we're not sure what you mean. maybe you could give an example? 03:49:50 I don't know what you mean by "creating arguments". 03:50:10 rudybot: (define (four a b c d) (+ a b c d)) 03:50:10 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 03:50:10 cky: let me look up what macroexpand does... 03:50:10 *offby1: Done. 03:50:15 rudybot: (four 10 20 30 40) 03:50:15 *offby1: ; Value: 100 03:52:19 erjiang: i mean that if i have for ex, (lambda (a b c d), how many arguments can i create on the next line? i'm new to programming so i'm not sure if i'm saying this right or not. 03:52:40 timj_ [~timj@e176192123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:52:50 -!- acarrico1 [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-62-150.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:52:54 pytho: Sorry, I'm still having trouble understanding that. 03:52:57 what does "create arguments" mean? 03:52:58 i think it's (arg1 (arg2 ( arg3))) 03:53:00 What is an example of "creating an argument"? 03:53:17 pytho: why not just write some code, and if it doesn't do what you want, show us the code, and tell us what you expected it to do. 03:53:29 Well, (arg1 (arg2 (arg3))) requires all those three variables to be functions. 03:53:44 cky: guile's macroexpand doesn't seem to do what I expected 03:53:49 erjiang: :-( 03:54:03 oh wait, maybe I'm just using it wrong 03:55:27 offby1: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118949 03:55:28 well, I'm expecting it to do (macroexpand '(let* ((x 5) (y (+ x 5))) (+ x y))) => (let ((x 5)) (let ((y (+ x 5))) (+ x y))) 03:55:37 pytho: hold on. 03:55:51 -!- timj [~timj@e176195178.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:56:02 or (macroexpand '(define (add1 x) (+ x 1))) => (define add1 (lambda (x) (+ x 1))) or something like that 03:56:05 pytho: ok, now: how does that code's behavior differ from what you expected? 03:56:14 erjiang: Problem is, in Guile, let, let*, etc. are C-level macros, not Scheme-level ones. 03:56:21 rudybot: (define sum-squares (lambda (x y z) (square (+ x y z)))) 03:56:21 *offby1: Done. 03:56:28 rudybot: (define (square x) (expt x 2)) 03:56:28 *offby1: Done. 03:56:29 erjiang: At least that's my theory, because they're listed as "primitive-builtin-macro!". 03:56:31 rudybot: (sum-squares 1 2 3) 03:56:31 *offby1: ; Value: 36 03:56:52 cky: that's rather disappointing 03:57:03 pytho_ [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has joined #scheme 03:57:16 Agree. 03:58:15 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:19 pytho: out of curiosity, is this for a class? 03:58:31 erjiang: hush your mouth :) 03:58:46 yes, it's for my intro to cs class 03:59:33 ... 03:59:45 pytho_: tell suzanne I said hello 04:00:04 menzell? 04:00:06 -!- pytho [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:00:14 :) 04:00:16 i'm in joseph's class. if you're at my school :P 04:00:35 oh! joe's teaching this semester? 04:00:43 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-62-150.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 04:00:50 yep! his first time teaching c211 04:01:06 get a room, you two 04:01:40 lol 04:02:00 pytho_: so are you a cs major? 04:02:13 yeah 04:02:22 a freshy. 04:03:13 awesome 04:03:50 i'm having a hard time with it. 04:03:54 to be honest :P 04:04:11 pytho_: Which university are you at? 04:04:23 (If you say Northeastern, I'll laugh.) 04:04:24 cky: indiana uni bloomington 04:04:27 Oh, nice. 04:04:32 The _other_ Scheme centre. 04:04:42 _other_ lol 04:04:45 yes 04:04:46 Yes. :-P 04:04:58 i'm suprised the first language is being taught in scheme 04:05:00 o_o 04:05:02 you won't find Racket here :p 04:05:08 erjiang: Nope, it's Chez all the way! 04:05:13 pytho_: Well, I'm not surprised. 04:05:27 pytho_: As I said, it's the other Scheme centre (the main one being Northeastern). 04:05:29 pytho_: Scheme is interesting because it's such an equalizer for the intro class 04:05:49 i thought python was the main intro lang 04:05:57 there are always kids that come in bragging about X years of Java and Y years of Python 04:06:16 but when they start struggling like everybody else, they quiet down :) 04:06:21 :-) 04:07:04 But but but but...Scheme isn't so different from, say, Python though. 04:07:11 In terms of the object model. 04:07:15 cky: blasphemy 04:07:16 Granted, Python isn't so lambda-focused. 04:07:22 erjiang: :-P 04:07:35 I'm a Scheme fan first, and everything else second. So I'm not trying to be blamphemous. 04:07:41 *blasphemous 04:08:03 Also, most languages don't exploit proper tail recursion to the same degree Scheme does. 04:08:11 People who can't think in recursion will be screwed royally. 04:08:18 pytho_: anyways, you should add me on Facebook or email me @indiana.edu 04:08:32 jones@indiana.edu ? 04:08:40 sure thing. 04:09:46 pytho_: you should get on the cs-club mailing list and FB group if you're not already 04:10:12 oh i didn't even know that existed here. 04:10:17 it's my first semester :P 04:10:27 pytho_: and the cs club is new too 04:10:38 i've only heard about the linux user group 04:10:44 but the website hadn't been created yet 04:11:10 I don't think that's affiliated with the school 04:11:50 it's for iub students 04:12:04 i think. 04:15:28 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-124.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:16:48 pytho_: anyways, good luck on your homework! i'll probably see you in #scheme some more :) 04:17:58 -!- erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has quit [Quit: ttfn] 04:24:12 -!- copumpkin is now known as jdh30 04:24:19 -!- jdh30 is now known as jdh31 04:25:42 zarus [~zarus@129.89.198.245] has joined #scheme 04:28:04 -!- jdh31 is now known as copumpkin 04:28:12 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-27-39-176.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:28:16 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 04:30:06 -!- pytho_ [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:38:10 Which one is more current, Stalin or Stalingrad Scheme? 04:38:19 Does anyone have experience with either? 04:40:38 I prefer hitler lisp 04:40:49 I remember Stalingrad Scheme ... so cold ... so hungry ... 04:40:54 EINS CONS. EIN CAR. EIN CDR. 04:40:58 lewis1711: :) 04:41:11 That is excellent. 04:41:16 I guess it's too late to invoke Godwin's Law 04:41:29 But seriously, noone has any experience? 04:42:56 seriously? I've never _heard_ of Stalingrad Scheme 04:42:58 Stalin, sure. 04:43:16 Optimizing compiler that does a great job, but takes an order of magnitude longer to compile than any other compiler 04:45:17 malloc(sizeof(LEBENSRAUM)); 04:45:19 ok I'll stop 04:45:57 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 04:47:21 no! don't! 04:48:00 D'ja hear about the new German-Chinese restaurant? An hour after you've eaten, you feel like invading Czechoslovakia! *rimshot* 04:52:28 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:00:53 offby1: i don't get the chinese bit 05:01:09 *offby1* stares blankly 05:01:14 also that country hasn't existed for over 20 years 05:01:39 lewis1711: Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but the thing dies in the process and the innards are discouraging to any but the pure scientific mind. E. B. White, Some Remarks on Humor, introduction 05:02:05 is that your excuse for such a fail joke?;) 05:02:09 Well, we work with Scheme, so we're scientific. 05:02:12 And it was a fail joke. 05:03:45 -!- tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:06:00 it's a _classic_ 05:07:45 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@187.112.204.12] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 05:11:12 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:12:16 "classic" is an arbitrary qualifier. 05:12:22 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 05:13:21 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 05:14:51 also I completely ruined it. 05:14:54 but other than that. 05:14:54 why is the chinese reference there? 05:15:00 it's just distracting 05:15:56 there used to be this prejudice about Chinese food -- that you'd be hungry an hour after you'd eaten it. 05:16:28 -!- MapMan [mapman@2001:470:1f0a:120e::fe] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:17:02 MapMan [mapman@2001:470:1f0a:120e::fe] has joined #scheme 05:19:21 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:22:09 ah 05:22:13 never heard that one :O 05:22:25 then again I don't like chinese food 05:23:22 -!- blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:37:45 offby1` [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 05:38:59 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:39:16 Are you talking about take-out or authentic? I don't generally like take-out either. 05:39:19 But authentic is good. 05:39:52 hmm, i had some at a restaurant once 05:39:55 just not my cup of tea 05:43:09 Anyone here use scmutils? 05:43:52 It's on my list of things to do, but no. :-( 05:45:09 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 05:47:36 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:18:19 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 06:29:46 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-71.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 06:30:32 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-71.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 06:32:08 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:32:39 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:53:01 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:57:04 -!- user17 [~user@p5B2A9CF3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:59:19 -!- jonrafkind 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corruptmemory femtoo Mandar phao mathk ventonegro myu2 HG` wisey pdelgallego_ pdelgallego adarnimrod tupi dfkjjkfd nilg` stamourv foof jao kenjin2201 DrDuck wbooze homie masm hkBst rasterbar leppie dmv_ alaricsp peterhil pchrist ToxicFrog user17 parcs MichaelRaskin offby1 MapMan Nisstyre acarrico timj_ kniu Teapot annodomini Intensity Riastradh oivindbi snorble sjamaan copumpkin yorick yx 15:16:32 -!- names: Adamant z0d Euthydemus Caleb-- pothos pjb yosafbridge em ski eno__ rrm3_ qsun_ arbscht neilcj preflex bremner gnomon mnemonicsloth minsa snappy araujo jeapostrophe dlouhy rien_ simontwo weinholt REPLeffect joast cky Axioplase_ elly antoszka alexsuraci` Hal9k jimrees_ rdd sloyd devn tessier Zol danking cataska snarkyboojum incubot nowhere_man C-Keen askhader Zahl XTL futilius metasyntax timchen1` rmrfchik ineiros tonyg Khisanth ecraven apgwoz borism peddie 15:16:32 -!- names: stepnem tizoc NNshag indigo Leonidas felipe bzzbzz kanru metasyntax` Kovensky inimino Obfuscate Tasser zeroish ozzloy ada2358 dfeuer aoh Fill minion specbot lisppaste mornfall pattern alexsuraci lusory levi _p4bl0 rudybot zbigniew certainty Pepe_ ve ray zbrown rapacity mario-goulart fds Adrinael rotty klutometis DerGuteMoritz pantsd qebab elf pr clog jimster aking 15:20:05 Riastrad1 [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 15:20:39 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:25:12 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:28:58 femtooo [~femto@95-89-198-16-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 15:31:51 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-198-16-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:33:44 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-124.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:46:42 -!- Mandar [~armand@pha75-21-78-228-186-233.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 15:55:20 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 15:59:31 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable198.178-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 15:59:50 -!- Riastrad1 is now known as Riastradh 16:02:15 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:02:24 jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:03:36 -!- adarnimrod [~nimrod@bzq-79-179-209-113.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:04:57 -!- karme [~user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:15 (define (scheme . ideas) (let ([creativity 'ideas]) (display "Show me your ideas") (newline) 'ideas)) 16:10:27 oops 16:10:58 (define (scheme . ideas) (let ([creativity 'ideas]) (display "Show me your ideas") (newline) 'creativity)) 16:11:23 if this works anyway... 16:12:41 scheme being very algorithmic-centered, one needs experience and creativity to take advantage of it. bring the light of lambda wisdom unto me 16:13:58 show me rare creative stuff 16:14:07 C-C-C-Combo Breaker! 16:14:08 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 16:14:28 whats that? 16:14:30 -!- dmv_ [~daniel@189-47-114-243.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:15:28 teurastaja: You say that when someone is pasting a big gob of text, so as to disrupt their flow. :-P 16:16:11 is that a jk? 16:16:38 i just dont get it enough to laugh 16:16:40 yet 16:17:29 No, it's just a carryover from an old /b/ meme, from what I read. 16:17:56 /b/ meme? 16:18:12 Just Google for "combo breaker". 16:18:35 im more confused than i expected to be when i asked for creativity 16:18:49 that's from killer instinct no? 16:18:50 i said creativity, not madness 16:19:02 rien_: Something like that. 16:19:25 teurastaja: Sorry, I was just in a facetious mood. Which I'm in about 90% of the time. :-P 16:19:34 lol 16:19:49 if you don't know what /b/ is you're in luck :) 16:19:57 What rien_ said. 16:20:22 good times, good times 16:20:34 rien_: The good times are still just a click away. ;-) 16:20:58 well I used to have time for that... not anymore I guess] 16:21:03 Ditto. 16:21:18 damnit i need to fucking manually install most browser plugins.... forgot i couldnt play flash and java.... 16:21:38 Nothing forces you to install them... 16:21:55 yes: casual browsing 16:22:07 Are you using a 64-bit browser? Google for "flash player square". 16:22:54 evhan [~evhan@76-250-39-229.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:23:15 its just that i need linux ABI emulation and everything else, make symlinks, unpack and fetch stuff (proprietary licenses make that a pain) 16:23:32 i know square 16:23:50 i install it on almost every linux i install 16:24:22 its easy, unlike installing on freebsd 16:24:58 its THE MOST frustrating thing to install on freebsd seriously. that and java 16:27:11 I remember getting flash to work on freebsd by installing a thingy that got some linux code to run on freebsd 16:27:51 you have to send yourself messages to activate private accounts at oracle's, put everything in the right directory yourself, make sure you can emulate linux, put a wrapper around flash, fetch timezone updates for java, symlink everything, and im not enumerating mosty of the process 16:28:22 s/mosty/most/ 16:28:37 wow 16:28:49 apt-get install openjdk-6-jdk 16:28:57 You could also just give up YouTube and not give up control of your computer... 16:29:16 get some virtualbox + windows there 16:29:39 i prefer fedora to ubuntu 16:30:40 i dont need a solution for that, i know how to do it, its just the most shocking thing to do: subscribe to the oracle mailing list 16:30:44 i hate oracle! 16:31:12 get in line 16:31:16 good grief. people really think ubuntu when they see apt-get huh. 16:31:34 wow, this channel is getting as offtopic as #emacs ;) 16:31:43 yes! 16:31:50 *rien_* shuts up 16:31:51 installing java on freebsd makes suicide a better solution 16:32:36 I'm using Squeeze on my laptop here. :-) @bremner 16:32:39 but then.... the rest is hot 16:32:42 zevarito [~zevarito@r186-48-209-73.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 16:33:14 squeeze? sounds like java speech 16:33:29 -!- zevarito [~zevarito@r186-48-209-73.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #scheme 16:34:00 that would be squeeje 16:34:43 i was half-right? 16:35:02 no clue 16:35:16 teurastaja: Squeeze == Debian 6.0. 16:35:59 teurastaja: It's referring to bremner's comment about how APT originated with Debian, not Ubuntu. 16:37:04 dmv_ [~daniel@189-47-104-65.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 16:43:36 oh 16:44:09 i prefer to chose my own tools that make use of the ports system 16:44:38 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:44:49 by "my own" i mean things located in /usr/ports/ports-mgmt/ 16:45:17 taste is taste... 16:45:49 Heh. 16:46:22 rudybot: eval ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc)) ; ObScheme 16:46:23 cky: your racket sandbox is ready 16:46:33 cky: error: with-limit: out of time 16:47:04 cky: what was that? 16:47:10 teurastaja: Why was what? 16:47:17 Oh, I misread. 16:47:24 It's a fancy way to run an infinite loop using call/cc. 16:48:43 im reading my (5th?) scheme tutorial. not yet at call/cc 16:48:55 rins [~user@173-162-214-174-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 16:49:12 tspl is the best i read yet 16:49:50 and im still a complete noob 16:50:54 sicp is for people who had calculus 16:51:41 calculus i will study in about a year 16:52:18 please continue pasting lambda wisdom 16:52:28 it enlightens me 16:52:32 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:02 teurastaja: http://community.schemewiki.org/?call-with-current-continuation 16:53:03 :-P 16:53:30 cky, if you're not careful, somebody will cut that tongue of yours right out of your mouth when it's dangling like that. 16:54:30 i already read that months ago if not a year ago 16:54:49 meanwhile ive played with a couple of other languages 16:55:12 Riastradh: Ouch! 16:56:17 tspl sheds some light along the path, but its a slow reading compared to tysifd 16:57:43 mwolfe [~mwolfe@corona.cornerturn.com] has joined #scheme 17:02:32 is sicp really for people who had calculus? what's calculus to do with programming? 17:03:00 have you read it? 17:03:04 you need math 17:03:19 it freakin mit 17:03:47 I haven't read it yet no, but if one needs to know calculus then I can't read it really 17:04:31 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:08:33 rien_: Just read it. :-) 17:08:37 rien_: You'll do just fine. 17:08:52 However, be sure to read it sequentially. 17:10:18 I'll give it a chance then, but if I see any calculus I'm running away! ;) 17:10:51 Heh. 17:12:32 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:39 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:15:26 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@187.58.255.185] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:19:27 -!- wisey [~Steven@host86-150-108-29.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:23:57 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:25:02 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 17:25:43 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:28:34 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 17:28:50 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-134-172.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:28:50 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:32:29 vilsonvieira [~vilson@189.58.118.84.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #scheme 17:33:34 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:34:36 carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:34:41 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:37:06 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@189.58.118.84.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38:13 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 17:40:07 josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has joined #scheme 17:40:56 teurastaja: FWIW i'm rubbish at calc and managed sicp just fine 17:41:13 teurastaja: you learn what you need, it's not that bad 17:41:41 pytho [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has joined #scheme 17:45:05 cool 17:49:56 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #scheme 17:50:57 -!- pytho [959fd3f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.159.211.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:54:15 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:56:12 -!- indigo [~indigo@theross.com] has left #scheme 17:59:37 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:17 lechon [~l@unaffiliated/keram] has joined #scheme 18:08:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:08:26 jewel_ [~jewel@196-210-134-102.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:08:35 zevarito_ [~zevarito@r186-48-234-209.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 18:16:41 i learn what i need what i learn 18:17:11 Good. Then you're all set. 18:17:31 nice contraction of words 18:18:31 in other words: i learn what i need, i need what i learn 18:18:45 i learn what i need what i learn 18:18:49 :P 18:22:39 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 18:23:42 mytoh [~mytoh@h220-215-161-087.catv02.itscom.jp] has joined #scheme 18:25:11 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:27:00 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 18:27:37 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-0-72.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:32:18 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:05 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-130-183.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:34:26 HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-130-183.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 18:39:25 erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has joined #scheme 18:45:04 -!- femtooo [~femto@95-89-198-16-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:54:24 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 19:03:46 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #scheme 19:04:01 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-71.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:04:01 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has left #scheme 19:04:15 -!- ventonegro [~alex@200.150.183.81] has quit [Quit: ventonegro] 19:04:29 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-68.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:04:56 f8l [~f8l@87-205-27-57.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #scheme 19:04:57 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-68.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:07:17 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-71.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:12:15 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:14:19 parolang [~user@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 19:16:36 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 19:19:01 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 19:19:29 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:12 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:22:22 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 19:26:39 pytho [8cb69d83@gateway/web/freenode/ip.140.182.157.131] has joined #scheme 19:35:06 -!- nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:10 (define (cons x y) (lambda (m) (m x y))) 19:44:27 (define (car z) (z (lambda (p q) p))) 19:44:29 heh 19:44:36 Yes. 19:44:45 That's from SICP :) 19:46:28 I need to get way more familiar with lambda computation...the above just seems difficult for me to wrap my head around. 19:46:31 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:47:26 (lambda (m) (m x y)) is a function that abstracts function application. 19:47:39 I guess it's weird to think of abstracting function application. 19:49:15 -!- teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable198.178-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Let FreeBSD handle all the signals... I just clicked on the 'X' button] 19:50:57 (lambda (m) (m x y)) is not a function, it's a closure. It's not only (lambda (m) (m x y)), but it's (lambda (m) (m x y)) with a set of bindings for x and y. 19:51:20 A closure is some kind of fundamental object, with slots (the bindings), and with a single method. 19:51:30 they are all closures 19:51:41 I thought lambda creates anonymous functions? 19:51:50 closures. 19:52:03 I guess I don't understand the difference. 19:52:11 there is no difference here 19:52:17 closures enclose bindings. 19:52:19 lambda creates a closure 19:52:24 which is a function 19:52:29 and if you don't give it a name, then it's anonymous 19:52:58 Okay...so a closure is the same as an environment. 19:53:27 a closure contains an environment 19:53:27 No. 19:53:35 (define car (lambda (z) (z (lambda (p q) p)))) ends up creating two closures 19:53:36 -!- zevarito_ [~zevarito@r186-48-234-209.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #scheme 19:53:39 A closure contains an environment (the bindings) and a function. 19:54:09 okay 19:54:17 erjiang: one or more. Not necessarily two. 19:54:21 So...is it easier to think in terms of closures than in terms of functions? 19:54:31 parolang: yes. 19:54:32 pjb, erm, yes. you are right. my bad 19:55:10 pjb: Okay...so I think that's what I need to work on, so that these kinds of expressions don't seem to mind-bending. 19:55:42 anyways, does anybody know if guile has an equivalent for mzscheme's `expand` procedure? 19:55:49 Closures are how lambdas seem to be able to store data. 19:56:08 erjiang_ [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has joined #scheme 19:56:12 I don't know what expand does. 19:56:37 (expand '(when x y)) => (if x y (void)) 19:56:41 expands macros 19:56:42 wait 19:56:51 i got an answer to this yesterday 19:56:54 nevermind 19:57:31 erjiang: You should ask on #guile. :-) 19:57:37 erjiang: There are more Guile people there. 19:57:47 So...lambda is essentially a closure constructor? 19:57:53 cky, good idea 19:57:55 erjiang: If you're lucky, you may even get a workable answer. :-) 19:58:02 parolang: yes. 19:58:38 And it produces a closure-object...okay, I'm starting to get it :) 19:59:32 well, object might suggest things to some people. value is a bit more neutral. 19:59:33 -!- erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:59:37 -!- erjiang_ is now known as erjiang 19:59:51 There's an equivalence between OO objects and closure. 19:59:53 Okay, sure...I just mean something you can store in a variable. 19:59:59 yup 20:00:00 Hence the term object in its OO meaning. 20:00:29 there's a koan about that, pjb 20:00:31 The whole point of scheme (vs. other lisps), is to demonstrate that objects, actors, and closures are the same thing. 20:00:38 It just seems like extra baggage, but yeah, I agree closures can model objects 20:00:57 That's the fundamental discovery of scheme. It's raison d'être. 20:01:00 ...in fact, modelling objects with closures is a core idiom in JS. 20:01:26 So, it's a concept that's gained mainstream use. 20:01:29 \o/ 20:01:33 pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118984 20:02:01 Okay, I think I found the section of SICP that discusses closures. I skimmed through most of SICP before, but now I'm trying to actually "grok" it, so to speak. 20:02:08 rien_: thank you. 20:02:27 femtoo [~femto@95-89-198-16-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 20:02:27 rien_: exactly :-) 20:02:30 :) 20:02:30 -!- erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has quit [Quit: ttfn] 20:03:09 -!- dmv_ [~daniel@189-47-104-65.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:03:42 It seems the tricky thing is that closures may share bindings with other closures, and other bindings between the two may not be shared. 20:04:01 Well...nevermind, that doesn't make sense. 20:04:07 *parolang* reads. 20:04:20 parolang: yes, a closure may enclose several functions. 20:04:37 (let ((x 1)) (list (lambda () x) (lambda (z) (set! x z)))) 20:04:58 parolang: I like to think of closures as enviroments 20:05:01 this is an object with one slot, and two methods, one getter and one setter. 20:05:09 nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-43-167.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:07:06 pjb: That whole let expression is a single closure? 20:07:45 That whole let creates a single environment for the two functions. I call it a single closure. 20:07:47 yes 20:08:17 the two lambdas close over x 20:08:19 And the second lambda is a closure within another closure. 20:08:25 that's how I'd say it 20:08:31 parolang: not here. 20:08:42 both lambdas are in the same list. 20:09:03 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-40-237.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:09:23 the point is, x is closed over by those two lambdas. that's the point of closures. 20:09:34 they're the only things that can see x 20:10:46 okay... 20:11:03 -!- jewel_ [~jewel@196-210-134-102.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:11:44 Another thing...I don't know if this is guile-specific, are variables themselves considered first-class objects in scheme? 20:12:03 They're not. 20:12:04 yes 20:12:07 ?? 20:12:34 You cannot bind a "variable object" to a variable, and there's no operator to operate on them. 20:12:48 you mean as a pointer? 20:13:08 (let ((x 1)) (let ((v (variable x))) (set-binding v (+ 1 (get-binding v))))) 20:13:13 Yes, something like that. 20:13:18 Well...guile has a make-variable function, for example. 20:13:31 What does it do really? 20:13:53 -- Scheme Procedure: make-variable init Return a variable initialized to value INIT. 20:14:05 That's strange. 20:14:32 Can you write something like (begin (make-variable 'x 43) x) ? 20:14:34 pjb: where does that code run? 20:14:39 nowhere. 20:14:49 (let ((x 1)) (let ((v (variable x))) (set-binding v (+ 1 (get-binding v))))) -> unbound variable "variable" 20:14:54 it could run if variables were first class objects. 20:15:06 oh I see your point 20:15:30 pjb: No, I think it's more like (define x (make-variable 43)). 20:16:03 pjb: But you can also have anonymous variables, I guess. I don't know what happens when you store variables in other variables (or into itself?) :D 20:16:26 Notice that in the case of Common Lisp, or emacs lisp, there are special variables, with dynamic bindings that behave like that. Basically, special variables are symbols. So you could implement (defmacro variable (name) `',name) (defun set-binding (var value) (set var value)) (defun get-binding (var) (symbol-value var)) 20:16:58 amoe [~amoe@cpc1-brig13-0-0-cust658.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 20:17:03 pjb: http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/guile.html#Variables 20:17:21 parolang: ok. But how do you "hook" dynamically created variables in the static program? You can always create objects holding values. That doesn't make them variables. 20:19:27 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 20:19:54 pjb: I'm not entirely sure...I just found it in the manual. I assume that it really just creates another level of dereferencing...so it's not just an object that holds a value, it's an object that holds a value, that can hold a value. But maybe I'm wrong. 20:20:28 zevarito [~zevarito@r186-48-234-209.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 20:20:57 parolang: yes, they don't seem to be lexical variables, but module variables. make-variable just creates a little structure to store a value. Perhaps there are other functions to modify the environment binding a symbol to one such "variable". 20:21:23 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:21:43 josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has joined #scheme 20:22:31 -!- amoe [~amoe@cpc1-brig13-0-0-cust658.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:23:17 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 20:24:41 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:25:22 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-0-72.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #scheme 20:25:55 Hmm...(define x 42) (variable? x) returns #f, probably because x evalutes to 42. 20:26:15 dmv_ [~daniel@189-47-104-65.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 20:26:35 rudybot: (define x 42) (variable? x) 20:26:35 rien_: your r5rs sandbox is ready 20:26:36 rien_: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: variable? in module: 'program 20:26:42 -!- zevarito [~zevarito@r186-48-234-209.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #scheme 20:26:48 oh he's using guile, right? 20:27:19 (define x (make-variable 42)) 20:27:41 Then x returns $3 = # 20:27:55 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has joined #scheme 20:28:32 is guile a rnrs or it doesn't care? 20:28:42 I wonder if there's a way to access the variable object of an implicit variable created with e.g. define. 20:28:43 To me it looks like it never cared. 20:29:04 It's R5RS. 20:29:28 They have some R6RS support. 20:29:45 a gnu version of a language that doesn't care about that language! I'm shocked :) 20:30:22 Are you refering to gcc? 20:30:40 no, to gnu smalltalk 20:30:50 oh 20:31:21 There's also gforth; gcc is C, C++, Ada, Fortran. 20:34:10 I don't really know if they screwed those up 20:35:52 (define y 42) (variable-ref y) segfaults guile :/ 20:36:49 hah 20:37:47 i get a wrong type arg error 20:38:19 schmir [~schmir@ppp-93-104-76-43.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #scheme 20:38:20 parolang: why are you using guile? 20:38:29 Which version? 1.9.14 here. 20:38:45 rien_: Why do people keep asking me that? 20:39:14 I use Emacs, and Guile has a nice environment under Emacs. 20:39:45 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:40:06 guile 1.8.7 here 20:40:09 I like being able to look up information quickly in the info manual. 20:40:33 looks like the variables in guile are mainly for the object system/toplevel 20:40:35 I don't like DrScheme or anything like that. 20:40:49 lol, because guile is... I don't know, not too common, to say the least. 20:40:53 aoh: Yeah, I'll send them a bug report. 20:41:02 they give an additional level of indirection 20:41:25 parolang: you should try chicken scheme, you'll have a lot more support with that 20:41:58 parolang: the same emacs env (if you mean geiser) works for racket too. You might like it. 20:42:17 gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has joined #scheme 20:43:12 bremner: Yeah...does racket have an info manual? 20:44:06 you mean in the info format for emacs? doubt it 20:44:52 parolang: racket manuals are all in scribble. I'm not sure if info is a target or not. 20:45:36 Okay. Anyway, so far, I'm happy with Guile for now. Maybe I'll try other versions of Scheme some other time. 20:45:51 I really don't know enough Scheme to really differentiate at this point. 20:45:52 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@211.177.88.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:24 -!- phao [~phao@189.12.254.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:46:29 me neither, I just like racket because it lets me point gui people to DrRacket, while using emacs myself. 20:46:57 Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-27-39-176.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 20:47:27 is #guile popular? 20:47:32 Didn't it used to be called mzscheme? 20:47:55 rien_: not really 20:48:28 ok, because I was going to say, you will find a lot of people willing to help you if you switch to chicken :) (sorry I don't mean to proselityze) 20:48:37 But, if this was a popularity contest, I wouldn't be investigating Scheme at all. 20:49:24 guile probably has pretty good documentation and libraries, but is 10-100x slower than some of the other implementations 20:49:25 parolang: yeah, mzscheme is also from the PLT people. 20:49:40 fair enough, but there are just better implementations around, is all 20:49:46 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:49:50 sticking to R5RS or R6RS in the beginning makes it easy to switch later depending on what the requirements turn out to be 20:49:55 Also...they say that Emacs might eventually use Guile for it's engine, and can/will support Elisp and Javascript. 20:50:05 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 20:50:13 emacs is planning on using guile instead of elisp? 20:50:15 yeah, that sounds pretty cool 20:50:18 rien_: You don't seem to know much about Guile. 20:50:19 if it ever happens 20:50:39 parolang: I don't. 20:50:54 rien_: Well...Guile will be able to support Elisp, and then Emacs could run Elisp on top of Guile. 20:51:19 are they trying to make it slower? 20:51:28 rien: When you say that X is better than Y, this assumes that you know enough about both X and Y. 20:51:50 -!- pytho [8cb69d83@gateway/web/freenode/ip.140.182.157.131] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:52:07 parolang: in a sense, but not in every sense. 20:52:48 rien_: What you mean to say is that you are happy with Chicken, and you like Chicken. This doesn't make other implementations worse. 20:53:04 Anyway, sorry for the offtopic. 20:53:09 other people already told you why it may be worse. slower was one reason. 20:54:00 Well, Guile is designed to be an extension language, so it has sacrificed some performance for this goal. (Says this in the manual.) 20:54:41 that was probably a mistake, fwiw 20:54:49 lua is an extension language and is quite fast 20:54:53 Hey wingo! 20:54:55 heya 20:55:01 Just sent you guys a bug report. 20:55:18 arcfide [1000@140-182-227-75.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 20:55:33 cool 20:55:37 *wingo* a few weeks behind. 20:55:47 ok that's fine. I just don't trust the gnu people with language development. 20:55:56 :( 20:56:09 be nice 20:56:55 timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.141] has joined #scheme 20:58:07 I mean that. like wingo said, making it an extension language is no excuse to sacrifice speed. 20:58:22 you are right in that regard 20:59:06 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 20:59:34 if elisp will run on top of guile then who knows how slow that will be. 20:59:45 who indeed! 20:59:45 sphjak [sphjak@161.253.112.60] has joined #scheme 20:59:51 sounds like guile tries (tried?) to add all kinds of semantics to scheme in order to be able to run different kinds of languages 21:00:31 hiya. im picking up scheme and have basic print returns down, outputting conditionally, but im looking to move on and was hoping someone could fill me in on something im missing 21:00:37 using scheme as a shared language would probably be a really good idea if it was used as a target language 21:00:45 wingo: You're sounding kind of pessimistic :) 21:00:58 if im recursing over a list, and want to keep track of elements along the way, to print out all the discovered elements at the last iteration, what do i need to do? 21:01:12 not all discovered elements, but ones that match conditionaly 21:01:31 sphjak: you need to cons or append them to a list 21:01:42 sphjak I would create a new list and insert each element that matched 21:01:46 do i need to be passing the list to the f on each iteration? 21:01:55 yes 21:02:05 like an accumulator 21:02:06 parolang: no, simply that we won't know until it happens :) 21:02:13 blehk. that was the best i could come up with, but it sounds painful 21:02:17 when/if, of course 21:02:39 there's an alternative to accumulators 21:02:42 nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 21:02:45 what about something like... 21:02:47 -!- aking [~aking@67.23.13.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:02:48 a top level define 21:02:51 when you do it with accumulators you're using tail recursion 21:02:52 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@67-23-4-190.static.slicehost.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:02:54 -!- jimster [~jimster@jimster.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:02:59 that i cons 21:03:16 wingo: Well...so far, I like Guile. I like Emacs, and I like the way GNU does things. I want to thank you guys for hacking at this. 21:03:36 tx! 21:03:45 :) 21:04:00 femtooo [~femto@95-89-198-16-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 21:04:48 -!- nilg` [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:09 -!- femtooo [~femto@95-89-198-16-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:30 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:54 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-198-16-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:08:25 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 21:09:26 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:09:38 josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has joined #scheme 21:11:52 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:23 -!- sphjak [sphjak@161.253.112.60] has quit [] 21:14:55 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 21:18:13 rudybot: (define (get-odds lstsofar lst) (if (equal? lst '()) lstsofar (if (odd? (car lst)) (get-odds (cons (car lst) lstsofar) (cdr lst)) (get-odds lstsofar (cdr lst))))) (get-odds '() (list 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)) 21:18:13 rien_: ; Value: {7 5 3 1} 21:18:30 oh he's gone 21:19:28 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has left #scheme 21:24:39 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:25:11 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@67-23-4-190.static.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 21:27:18 aking [~aking@67.23.13.119] has joined #scheme 21:28:20 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 21:29:13 -!- rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:51 -!- schmir [~schmir@ppp-93-104-76-43.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:33:37 Sheesh...SICP calls "closure" something else. 21:35:32 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.205] has joined #scheme 21:35:32 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.205] has quit [Changing host] 21:35:32 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 21:35:39 what's that? 21:36:21 bbim 21:37:09 SICP: "In general, an operation for combining data objects satisfies the closure property if the results of combining things with that operation can themselves be combined using the same operation." 21:37:42 that's way above my head 21:37:50 "The use of the word "closure" here comes from abstract algebra, 21:37:50 where a set of elements is said to be closed under an operation if 21:37:50 applying the operation to elements in the set produces an element that 21:37:50 is again an element of the set. The Lisp community also 21:37:53 (unfortunately) uses the word "closure" to describe a totally unrelated 21:37:58 concept: A closure is an implementation technique for representing 21:38:01 procedures with free variables. We do not use the word "closure" in 21:38:04 this second sense in this book." 21:38:08 sorry 21:38:11 Forgot to unfill that. 21:38:12 ... 21:38:29 "The use of the word "closure" here comes from abstract algebra, where a set of elements is said to be closed under an operation if applying the operation to elements in the set produces an element that is again an element of the set. The Lisp community also (unfortunately) uses the word "closure" to describe a totally unrelated concept: A closure is an implementation technique for representing procedures with free variables. 21:38:29 not use the word "closure" in this second sense in this book." 21:39:31 I don't understand the abstract algebra concept of closure 21:39:44 The SICP means closure to mean like a cons cell which can also contain other cons cells, etc. 21:40:01 adding numbers together gives numbers, which again can be added with other numbers, for example 21:41:01 hmm 21:41:20 I'd say the second "unfortunate" sense of closure has been more helpful in my programming endeavors 21:41:32 aoh: I don't know if adding numbers exemplifies "combining things". 21:42:08 parolang: does he not give an example in the book, of what an abstract algebra closure is? 21:42:48 parolang, that is pretty standards in the maths-meaning of the word :) 21:43:09 aoh: You might be right...dunno. 21:43:28 rien_: I don't know...there's a whole section on this. 21:43:45 rien_: I'm reading the info version of SICP inside Emacs, BTW :) 21:44:13 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-130-183.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:44:28 -!- mathk [~mathk@194.177.62.40] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 21:44:44 parolang: lol :) emacs is awesome 21:45:00 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:45:07 ooh does it highlight scheme code in the book? 21:45:14 no 21:45:15 josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has joined #scheme 21:45:20 awww... so close 21:45:24 to perfection 21:45:39 you gave me an idea though, so thanks 21:45:42 One possible weakness to the info reader, but syntax highlighting is kind of gimicky, if you think about it. 21:46:15 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:46:36 I don't know what you mean by that. 21:47:24 mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 21:47:31 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 21:47:32 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 21:47:36 The info reader doesn't highlight syntax in info manuals. 21:48:15 But it's questionable whether syntax highlighting is actually useful, or just a gimmick, something to attract people's attention/interest. 21:48:44 Riastradh: is there a special way to generate info pages from mit-scheme source code? 21:48:52 do you ever program without syntax highlighting? 21:49:09 From the source code? What would the Info pages contain? 21:49:17 rien_, yes. 21:49:37 why? 21:49:52 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:50:11 rien_, Edwin doesn't support it. 21:50:15 josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has joined #scheme 21:50:49 Riastradh: I mean when an info manual has scheme, or other code examples contained. 21:51:00 and you have a strong reason to stick with that editor, I assume? 21:51:32 rien is auditing everyone's choice of software today :) 21:52:02 I'm just making conversation :/ 21:52:43 Yes, rien_. 21:52:59 I like the theory that with a dynamic and interactive enough programming language, the editor you use doesn't matter. 21:53:24 Riastradh: source code + some annotations (like javadoc or doxygen) 21:54:22 ecraven, I don't know of any such work for MIT Scheme in particular. There are various generic Scheme schemes for it. 21:54:52 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:59:30 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:59:40 josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has joined #scheme 22:11:29 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:11:50 josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has joined #scheme 22:12:51 saccade [~saccade@216.239.45.19] has joined #scheme 22:13:36 phao [~phao@189.107.202.49] has joined #scheme 22:13:56 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:17:15 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.202.49] has quit [Client Quit] 22:18:32 -!- josephholsten [~josephhol@216.16.128.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:27:59 vilsonvieira [~vilson@201.47.58.47.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #scheme 22:33:49 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:33:52 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:34:33 -!- dmv_ is now known as valium97582 22:38:10 erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has joined #scheme 22:39:56 mathk [~mathk@194.177.62.20] has joined #scheme 22:44:42 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 22:44:42 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 22:53:56 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 22:54:22 -!- aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 22:55:49 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:09:36 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 23:09:52 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:12:04 _danb_ [~user@124-169-135-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 23:15:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-231-109.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:21 -!- erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:27 -!- mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:19:18 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:18 blueadept [~blueadept@unaffiliated/blueadept] has joined #scheme 23:29:02 -!- f8l is now known as f|l 23:30:08 -!- f|l [~f8l@87-205-27-57.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 23:31:40 zevarito_ [~zevarito@r186-48-214-247.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 23:32:24 seamus-android [~alistair@cpc1-brig7-0-0-cust565.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 23:33:27 -!- evhan [~evhan@76-250-39-229.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:33:42 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 23:35:33 evhan [~evhan@dyn-206-32.vpn.wisc.edu] has joined #scheme 23:36:01 -!- zevarito_ [~zevarito@r186-48-214-247.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:47:20 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.141] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 23:54:24 -!- evhan [~evhan@dyn-206-32.vpn.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]