00:00:02 rudybot: (define-syntax when (syntax-rules () ((_ pred body ...) (if pred (begin body ...) (void))))) 00:00:02 cky: your racket sandbox is ready 00:00:02 cky: Done. 00:00:16 rudybot: (when #t (display "Yay") (newline)) 00:00:17 cky: ; stdout: "Yay\n" 00:01:46 FunkyDrummer [~RageOfTho@users-146-124.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 00:05:12 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-146-124.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:08:34 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.168.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:16:57 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-128.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:20:28 MapMan [mapman@2001:470:1f0a:120e::fe] has joined #scheme 00:23:16 can I do something like (define sum ((define i 2) (define j 3) (+ i j))) 00:23:18 ? 00:23:46 MapMan: You have too many brackets, but yes. 00:24:08 You normally do it using let, though. 00:24:19 I try to do something like that in drracket r5rs and I get 00:24:20 define: not allowed in an expression context in: (define i 2) 00:24:20 (define sum (let ((i 2) (j 3)) (+ i j))) 00:24:30 what's the difference between let and a nested define though? 00:24:31 rudybot: (define sum (let ((i 2) (j 3)) (+ i j))) 00:24:31 cky: Done. 00:24:34 rudybot: sum 00:24:34 cky: ; Value: 5 00:24:49 okay, thanks folks 00:25:00 lewis1711: For starters, nested defines are only allowed at the start of a lambda. 00:25:10 lewis1711: Also, internal defines have letrec semantics, not let. 00:25:24 huh? 00:25:31 rudybot: (define (foo x) (define y 3) (* y x)) 00:25:32 lewis1711: your sandbox is ready 00:25:32 lewis1711: Done. 00:25:55 or do you mean the "implicit lambda" in the above? 00:25:58 ie 00:26:07 Right, and that's the same as: (define foo (lambda (x) (letrec ((y 3)) (* y x)))) 00:26:08 larceny complains about sum being out of context 00:26:37 bitweiler: is larceny still being developed? it looked really interesting but it seemed to be abandoned 00:26:49 yes 00:26:55 I'd like in r6rs scheme to C implementation (heresy, I know) 00:27:03 *an 00:30:48 is it better in scheme if moving files to other storage device to use the OS move system or move the by copying them with scheme? 00:31:00 larceny is still being developed 00:31:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-115.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 00:31:43 hmm. is there anywhere one can follow the dev of larceny, or is it a closed process? 00:32:08 the homepage has no news of any sort 00:32:15 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 00:33:18 lewis1711: ask on larceny-users@lists.ccs.neu.edu 00:33:34 http://lists.ccs.neu.edu/pipermail/larceny-users/2010-December/thread.html 00:34:09 bitweiler: I'd have the OS do it. 00:34:38 okay, thanks 00:34:57 thanks, bookmarked 00:36:05 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@86-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:39:47 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@230.22.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:44:10 darn spaces in name, ehrm.. 00:47:04 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:48:05 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:48:17 is it possible to "extend" a previously defined function? (am experimenting with the whole "Closures for encapsulation vs objects thing) 00:48:55 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:52:32 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:36 -!- FunkyDrummer [~RageOfTho@users-146-124.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:06:10 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-146-124.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 01:06:54 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-129-216.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:07:45 Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:09:54 the obvious way to extend a function is to wrap it in another function. 01:12:38 -!- StephenFalken [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has left #scheme 01:12:47 StephenFalken [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #scheme 01:12:49 offby1` [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 01:14:14 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 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quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:15:29 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-126-77.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:17:46 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-126-77.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:21:31 adu [~ajr@c-76-23-82-40.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:48:35 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:48:41 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:49:14 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:50:28 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:52:06 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:53:00 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: night.] 03:56:04 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176199092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:59:40 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:00:28 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:05:24 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:09:34 timj_ [~timj@e176194087.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:09:36 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:12:59 -!- adu [~ajr@c-76-23-82-40.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 04:14:16 -!- scheibo [~scheibo@CPE0026f3358958-CM0026f3358955.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:14:39 I am having a mental block with the whole variable arguments as an improper list. say I had have the function... 04:14:51 (lambda (foo . bar) ... ) 04:15:01 how would I map over all the arguments passed?:/ 04:15:06 With "map" 04:15:32 Well, if you don't want to treat the first argument differently, you wouldn't use that form 04:15:39 ah 04:15:40 You would write (lambda bar ...) 04:16:13 wait what? that's a vararg? 04:16:20 A simple symbol (or any other object, but only symbols are allowed here) is a degenerate case of an improper list, with 0 regular members. 04:17:00 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-228-156-85.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 04:17:45 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-246.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:17:55 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:18:00 scheibo [~scheibo@CPE0026f3358958-CM0026f3358955.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 04:18:26 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-246.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:18:36 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:18:38 rudybot: (define (foo bar) (map (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) bar)) 04:18:38 lewis1711: Done. 04:18:46 (foo '(1 2 3)) 04:18:54 rudybot: (foo '(1 2 3)) 04:18:54 lewis1711: ; Value: (2 3 4) 04:19:01 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 04:19:15 That's not varargs, that's a single arg which is a list 04:19:19 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19:49 guess i don't need var args then 04:20:12 rudybot: (define (foo . bar) (map (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) bar)) 04:20:13 jcowan: your sandbox is ready 04:20:13 jcowan: Done. 04:20:18 (foo 1 2 3) 04:20:23 rudybot: (foo 1 2 3) 04:20:23 jcowan: ; Value: (2 3 4) 04:20:42 rudybot: (define (foo . bar) (map (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) bar)) 04:20:43 StephenFalken: your sandbox is ready 04:20:43 StephenFalken: Done. 04:20:47 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:20:57 rudybot: (foo 1 2 3) 04:20:57 StephenFalken: ; Value: (2 3 4) 04:20:58 That is varargs: (define (foo . bar) ...) is equivalent to (define foo (lambda bar ...)) 04:21:14 ops 04:21:26 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-246.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:21:37 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-246.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:24:26 right, so the only effective difference is syntax 04:25:43 Just so. 04:26:26 But you see the symmetry of it? The define list is the function name consed to the lambda argument list, which in this case is just a symbol itself, being, 04:26:50 as I said, a degenerate case of an improper list in which there are no regular list elements and the list tail is all there is. 04:27:36 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:28:43 -!- samth [~samth@dhc023752.med.harvard.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:31:34 -!- scheibo [~scheibo@CPE0026f3358958-CM0026f3358955.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:32:52 scheibo [~scheibo@CPE0026f3358958-CM0026f3358955.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 04:34:45 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:38:34 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:39:49 -!- scheibo [~scheibo@CPE0026f3358958-CM0026f3358955.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:41:12 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:42:14 scheibo [~scheibo@CPE0026f3358958-CM0026f3358955.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 04:46:34 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:50:11 -!- tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:50:32 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:56:17 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:57:32 phao_ [~phao@189.107.137.141] has joined #scheme 04:58:24 -!- MapMan [mapman@2001:470:1f0a:120e::fe] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:58:39 MapMan [mapman@2001:470:1f0a:120e::fe] has joined #scheme 05:01:19 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.168.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:02:24 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-124.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:02:24 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:02:52 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-146-124.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:03:15 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.181.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:10:00 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:13:14 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:15:51 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.181.6] has joined #scheme 05:20:57 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:21:18 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:28:04 -!- MapMan [mapman@2001:470:1f0a:120e::fe] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:28:19 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:28:26 Mapianka [~mapman@2001:470:1f0a:120e::fe] has joined #scheme 05:32:07 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:33:46 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 05:36:17 DrDuck [~duck@adsl-81-55-129.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 05:40:34 kanru [~kanru@61-228-156-85.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 05:43:28 If anyone's interested, I've just started a project to solve problems from http://projecteuler.net/ in Scheme. The first few solutions are here: http://franki.blinkenshell.org/project_euler/ I'd love to hear your comments. :-) 05:44:32 I'd be happy to discuss anything from algorithms, reasoning, efficiency, indentation, &c. I shall try my best to keep updating it too, so keep an eye on it if you're interested! 05:44:36 *fds* shrugs 05:48:00 jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:51:41 -!- scheibo [~scheibo@CPE0026f3358958-CM0026f3358955.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:53:32 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-74-68-112-189.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:03:34 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 06:14:39 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.181.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:19:15 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.181.6] has joined #scheme 06:19:36 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:19:43 fds: I care, but am still too useless at scheme to understand:) 06:19:55 havta level up 06:20:05 Heh, me too, me too. :-) 06:20:14 But, this is one of my many ways of trying! 06:20:33 I'm mostly mentioning it here to motivate myself to continue working on it 06:20:52 The more people I tell about it, the more I'll feel like I need to solve more problems! 06:21:22 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 06:21:49 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:22:05 fds: how will you deal with the problems that are computing intensive ? 06:22:32 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:22:57 I'm not sure, if I really can't get decent performance from a good algorithm I'll try Guile's FFI, I guess 06:23:06 I've never done that before, so it would be educational 06:27:39 _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 06:31:02 fds: thanks for the link to the project ;) 06:32:30 :-) 06:33:12 It might make sense for me to switch to a compiled Scheme though, like Chicken. I just happened to be playing around with Guile when I started working on it 06:35:38 valium97582 [~daniel@187.57.19.237] has joined #scheme 06:36:21 -!- Mapianka [~mapman@2001:470:1f0a:120e::fe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:51 I got the impression that the trick to most euler problems is finding the right algorithm 06:39:58 though I've only done the first 20 or so 06:41:04 -!- DrDuck [~duck@adsl-81-55-129.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:41:11 so you just paste your answer into the answer box? 06:47:05 -!- mwolfe [~michael@cpe-67-49-72-40.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:47:21 MapMan [mapman@2001:470:1f0a:120e::fe] has joined #scheme 06:48:09 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:49:39 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:54:59 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.181.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:55:50 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:57:10 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:33 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 06:59:07 -!- MapMan [mapman@2001:470:1f0a:120e::fe] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:59:25 MapMan [mapman@2001:470:1f0a:120e::fe] has joined #scheme 07:00:19 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 07:01:12 Problem 7 07:01:13 By listing the first six prime numbers: 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, and 13, we can see that the 6th prime is 13. 07:01:13 What is the 10001st prime number? 07:01:16 :/ 07:01:20 This is just brute force 07:01:42 You don't like brute force? 07:01:56 Then try computing the 10^20th prime number. 07:02:25 There is nothing brilliant about finding 10001st prime number. 07:02:43 and there should be? 07:02:47 Indeed, there isn't. 07:03:00 To make it more challenging, I guess there should be. 07:04:08 but it's just the seventh problem! 07:04:18 And if you can compute the 10^40th prime number in a short time, that probably means you have a novel algorithm. 07:05:24 -!- phao_ [~phao@189.107.137.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:05:40 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:05:46 A simple problem like "find the sum of all positive integers from 1 to 10^40" would weed out people with brains from simple brute forcers. 07:06:01 This is just a very simple example. 07:06:46 Right, Jafet 07:09:14 Feh. You can look down on other people, or you can look up. 07:11:47 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:18:57 There's no need to "weed out people" in a project where the sole purpose is helping people practice algorithmic solutions to math problems. 07:26:26 phao [~phao@189.107.131.209] has joined #scheme 07:34:25 adu [~ajr@c-76-23-82-40.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:50:13 damn it, I want static typing right about now:P 07:52:02 unless there's some nice way to ensure that an argument to a scheme function is a list of length 3 lists 07:54:13 Don't call the function with invalid arguments. 07:54:45 lol 07:54:50 I was afraid that would be it 07:56:07 Why, do you get up semi-conscious in the middle of the night and enter invalid procedure calls into your code? 07:56:45 I guess i'm a paranoid programmer 07:57:05 so I'm worried I might do that 07:57:28 I find it more readable when you can write what sort of thing a function should expect as an argument 07:57:36 or at least have the option to 07:57:51 but scheme does lots of other things i'll love so I'll forgive the dynamic typing 08:09:34 lewis1711: you can write any static test you want. (define (f x) (static (list-of-length? x 3)) (do-something x)) 08:10:11 lewis1711: it's up to you to define static, list-of-length? and the compiler that will do the static test. 08:10:28 yes, I may create a bunch of type checkin functions 08:10:31 Meanwhile, you can implement static as identity. 08:10:45 or assert rather, I mean. 08:10:52 gosh, i am already working on my own OOP system, and next is the module system. oh well, at least it will be done how I want it;) 08:11:05 Exactly! That's the point. 08:11:10 haha 08:11:12 of scheme? 08:11:18 Yes. 08:11:21 man I just came here because I liked the s-expressions 08:11:34 but this is cool too 08:12:19 And I'd would even say of computing in general. Once upon a time, programmers had the whole machine at their disposition, with no OS or library to intervene. They could build safe and proved bug-free programs, because they didn't have to rely on buggy libraries or OS components. 08:12:30 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:12:40 yeah but facebook must have run *really* slowly for them;) 08:12:46 :-) 08:12:58 Nowadays, the best you can do is to run in a VM. 08:13:03 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #scheme 08:13:37 Man, I have read through the define-syntax bit in TSPL so many times and I still don't get it. it's all pattern matching appareantly. I mean I can do pattern matching in Ocaml alright, but in scheme i can't grok it. 08:20:22 lewis1711: there are also defmacro operators. Easier to use IMO, but not necessarily "hygienic". 08:20:44 hmmm, I'd like to stay clean:) 08:21:01 I am looking for a more noob friendly scheme macro guide 08:27:09 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 08:27:31 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:28:05 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:34:31 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:35:11 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.131.209] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:41:05 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-99.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:47:37 -!- bitweiler [~bitweiler@99.58.93.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:53:39 pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 08:53:50 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 08:54:30 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-126-98.dip.osnanet.de] has joined 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generally just confused about what to do 22:28:45 <_danb_> you just want to run scheme programs? 22:29:01 There are many Scheme interpreters available in the Ubuntu repositories 22:29:37 I'm personally using `Chicken' right now. :-) 22:29:46 well i think the book is telling me to write stuff in an interpreter so it spits answers back out. the book is SICP maybe you all are familiar with it 22:29:57 @ _danb_ 22:30:06 ok ill check that one out fds 22:30:15 isn't MIT scheme the favourite sicp scheme? 22:30:33 <_danb_> sanduz2: another nice one is racket; although you might only be able to get it as plt scheme 22:30:55 yeah, ubuntu doesn't have racket yet last time I heard. 22:31:06 The only part of SICP that I've found to be Scheme-specific is the `picture language' section, but I couldn't get that working with MIT Scheme. :-P 22:31:20 ah, ok. Does it work with PLT/Racket? 22:31:31 Apparently, I haven't tried it though 22:31:33 or chicken? 22:31:40 -!- vpalle [~vpalle@0x3ec65448.inet.dsl.telianet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:31:44 I just gave up and moved on :-P 22:32:02 fds, so any interpreter should be fine? 22:32:10 sanduz2: eah, pretty much 22:32:17 s/eah/Yeah/ 22:32:37 thanks guys, i guess you all love that Chicken interpreter then? 22:32:51 <_danb_> sanduz2: haven't used chicken; just plt/racket 22:33:00 <_danb_> chicken looks cool in how it compiles into machine code 22:33:08 I do, but Racket is also popular. I guess they're the two most widely used in here. *shrug* 22:33:13 <_danb_> but plt has a history for being used to teach 22:33:18 <_danb_> though it is a serious language 22:33:20 -!- Dark-Star [~michael@HSI-KBW-095-208-117-017.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 22:33:47 flonum [~ben@24-138-98-109.zing-net.ca] has joined #scheme 22:34:06 isnt scheme the language and plt/chicken/racket just the name of the program that interprets it or compiles it or something? forgive my ignorance, ive never worked with functional programming 22:34:24 <_danb_> they're all implementations of "scheme" 22:35:03 <_danb_> what is "scheme" - maybe wikipedia is best for that; I'm a newb myself on this stuff; but the 2 big lisps are "common lisp" and "scheme" 22:35:11 <_danb_> and there are many implementations of both 22:35:16 <_danb_> I guess you could think of them as standards 22:35:39 Also, Scheme has a fairly loose definition, much looser than Common Lisp 22:35:41 <_danb_> there's also clojure which is java-based lisp-1 that's doing its own thing 22:35:54 And Emacs-Lisp! 22:35:55 :-P 22:36:06 <_danb_> :) 22:36:10 jesus 22:36:11 lol 22:36:29 sanduz2: You sound incredibly confused 22:36:47 -!- flonum [~ben@24-138-98-109.zing-net.ca] has left #scheme 22:37:12 a little bit, i just find it odd that theres no main language like python and instead just a bunch of implementations. so i guess scheme is more like a standard or a rulebook as was mentioned earlier 22:37:16 kind of odd to me 22:37:19 Don't worry about that stuff, really. Just grab any interpreter and work through SICP. You can learn more about the whole eco-system later, if you want to 22:37:22 odd? 22:37:27 most languages are like that 22:37:37 thanks fds 22:37:48 cpython ironpython pypy ... 22:37:57 drdo, are they? how would you compare this to, say, python which has one main language by the python foundation 22:38:04 thats true 22:38:14 vpalle [~vpalle@0x3ec65448.inet.dsl.telianet.dk] has joined #scheme 22:38:15 sanduz2: python is one language, and a pretty recent one 22:38:17 but did no one make a "scheme" language? 22:38:19 -!- mwolfe [~michael@64.134.229.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:38:33 python has a bunch of implementations 22:38:43 sanduz2: C for example, which is very widely used, is defined by a standard 22:39:34 Scheme was originally developed at MIT (I'm not sure if it was the same as the present MIT-Scheme), but it has a long tradition of being implemented many times, at different universities or just for fun 22:40:35 i think i understand a bit better now. so stuff like GCC or jython use some standards but may add extra stuff or implement it a different way 22:40:49 Right 22:40:58 fds: scheme is quite hard to implement 22:41:07 cool thanks 22:41:16 drdo: I didn't say anything about how difficult it was. 22:41:22 <_danb_> sanduz2: so what got you interested in scheme and lisp? 22:41:46 -!- githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:41:46 fds: I didn't claim you did :) 22:42:15 sanduz2: Python is actually an interesting case, because the `standard' is actually CPython or whatever it's called, rather than actually having a written standar. That seems more confusing to me. :-) 22:42:56 _danb_, well ive been programming for over a year now and i was searching for a book that would expand my mind more and i found SICP. also im itnerested in AI and wanted to learn a functional paradigm so i thought it was a good match 22:43:08 fds, haha 22:43:13 <_danb_> sanduz2: ++sicp , that is mind-expanding 22:44:07 hehe 22:44:36 so scheme is fine for AI compared to common lisp and stuff? why do you guys use scheme instead of common lisp 22:44:44 <_danb_> for AI, there's an old book PAIP with Norvig as one of the authors; apparently very lispy book; and there is a more up to date book that concentrates on AI by the same author 22:44:55 <_danb_> (co-author) 22:45:10 ill write that down _danb_ 22:45:14 Whatever you do, stay away from Modern Approach 22:45:53 Unless you happen to read text that seems to have been written by people with a severe case of ADHD 22:45:58 *happen to like 22:46:07 <_danb_> sanduz2: for a really fun intro to common lisp, try Land of Lisp 22:46:14 drdo, ill keep a note of it 22:46:37 That's just my opinion, maybe you'll enjoy it 22:46:51 oh wow it has cartoon characters 22:46:52 <_danb_> you'll start to see the differences and design choices made by scheme vs common lisp if you do LoL and compare it to whatever you learn with scheme 22:47:01 sanduz2: it has a Video Clip 22:47:36 ok cool ill check it out :) thanks guys 22:48:14 <_danb_> sanduz2: but LoL will teach you the basics and a way to think about "lisp" in general 22:48:20 <_danb_> that seems fun and fairly fast 22:48:38 <_danb_> but sicp is the ultimate!!! 22:48:54 haha 22:48:57 <_danb_> umm, well, maybe not; but it's deeply cool 22:49:11 -!- antoszka is now known as antoszka-temp 22:49:14 i was planning to do sicp then do the art of programming by knuth 22:49:15 <_danb_> ... so far 22:49:21 which i heard was another classic ' 22:49:21 The Ultimate is RnRS! 22:49:33 -!- antoszka-temp is now known as antoszka 22:49:39 The Ultimate is Lambda! 22:49:40 <_danb_> if you're serious about programming, sicp should be near the top of your list 22:50:13 <_danb_> but LoL might be easier and faster 22:50:30 ill tough it out with sicp! 22:52:54 sanduz2: read Knuth on coroutines. Then read just R5RS. Implement any of coroutine algorithms 22:53:21 I did that back in the time - feels nice. 22:55:32 *rien* is trying to find Knuth on coroutines 22:55:33 MichaelRaskin, i plan to read Knuths concrete mathematics book too which i think includes that. or did you have something else in mind? 22:55:59 The Art of computer programmings has a chapter about coroutines 22:56:13 ah ok 22:56:18 Implementing things in assembler gave Knuth some freedom in flow control. 22:57:35 Dijkstra just rolled around in his grave 23:08:04 Genosh|Off [~Genosh@119.Red-79-145-47.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:10:26 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@119.Red-79-145-47.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:10:32 -!- Genosh|Off is now known as Genosh 23:12:55 sorry to bug you guys again, but im looking through the ubuntu repository and i see the chicken compiler but no interpreter, then theres just the PLT environment but no interpreter. am i confused again? i see other interpreters but will they run from the command line like the python interpreter? 23:13:36 interpretation and compilation are just implementation details 23:13:44 If you install chicken-bin it comes with the interpreter, it's called `csi' 23:14:08 (`Chicken Scheme Interpreter', if you're wondering) 23:14:16 ah ok thanks guys :) 23:15:06 I think you can set up the interpreter to use readline and stuff so you have a decent editing experience, but I recommend just using Emacs. ;-) 23:16:45 i just started trying out emacs recently (im a vim user). i guess it was destiny! 23:19:26 With Emacs you can just do M-x run-scheme to get a nice REPL (with history and proper editing commands and stuff) and you can just press C-x C-e to send code from a file to get evaluated and other niceties. 23:20:05 that sounds pretty nice 23:21:17 I think it's fun, but Emacs is a bit of an investment. People in here and #emacs are generally helpful though, I can share some stuff from my .emacs file with you if you're interested. 23:22:03 ill remember your offer, i havent even gotten started learning it yet :P and this room is indeed very helpful (the lisp room just had a bunch of people shouting...) 23:22:13 ive added it to my list 23:22:50 Cool. :-) 23:23:21 sanduz2: Actually, limp for vim gives whatever fds mentioned already 23:23:40 There are some more complicated things that can be configured in Emacs but not in Limp... 23:24:03 MichaelRaskin, oh nice. then if i fall in love with scheme i dont have to fall in love with a particular editor 23:24:11 But my immediate boss switched to Emacs for Common Lisp and still gets worse experience than me with Vim after a few months 23:24:47 Editor? Has Emacs OS got a text editor? 23:24:52 hahahaha 23:24:54 Is there a Paredit for Vim? 23:25:43 ...Not that I'm against Vim in any way; I'm pro-choice. :-P 23:26:05 What is par-edit actually? 23:26:11 thats just another word for HATE AND BIGOTRY AND HOMOPHOBIA 23:27:19 Any time someone described its features, they never got past Vim's basic non-sexp-specific parenthesis matching features + maybe auto-closing of parenthesis which Vim optionally has and which is annoying 23:28:32 It's a minor mode for editing Lisp; it offers various functionality to help managing sexps. I love the auto-closing of parentheses, but it does other stuff too lik, errr, pressing the control key and arrows to move stuff in and out of sexps 23:28:38 (It's not easy to explain) 23:29:07 hm 23:29:12 It's hard to remember what exactly it provides because it's been a while since I've edited without it 23:29:32 I guess the web page has a feature list, I'll look now. :-) 23:29:42 Maybe it has some more bindings that I would need to look for on vim.org if I wanted them in one package 23:30:39 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:32:55 I guess this tells you exactly what it provides: http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.html If you're interested 23:33:33 I particularly like the `paredit-kill' function, it kills just the right amount of code. :-) 23:33:56 -!- Fill [~Fill@static.195.170.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Changing host] 23:33:56 Fill [~Fill@unaffiliated/fill] has joined #scheme 23:34:50 <_danb_> a paredit cheatsheet is also good 23:35:01 <_danb_> ah that is the cheatsheet 23:35:11 Somehow half of these bindings look like they would send me into a rage 23:35:18 <_danb_> different to the one I had 23:35:31 <_danb_> MichaelRaskin: well, with vim and normal emacs you are editing lines of code 23:35:41 <_danb_> with paredit you are editing nested tree structures 23:35:58 <_danb_> well, something like that 23:36:16 Right, it feels very `syntax aware', maybe that would annoy you and I found it a little disorienting at first, but I reall like it now 23:36:20 s/reall/really/ 23:36:21 <_danb_> I should just say: nested lists 23:36:33 _danb_: my paid job supposes maintaining some websites, and I made it so the sites I maintain are implemented in Common Lisp... So I write significant amont of complicated s-expressions 23:36:35 <_danb_> it is disorienting and easy to forget at first 23:36:40 <_danb_> because it is a different paradigm for editing 23:37:10 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:37:12 _danb_: I use things like "da)" (kill everything inside () and () itself) a lot 23:37:18 And such things 23:37:29 <_danb_> yeh, I'm a vimmer 23:37:32 <_danb_> was once 23:38:02 That sounds just like the kind of thing Paredit brings to Emacs. :-) 23:38:09 <_danb_> but the line editing stuff that makes vi so powerful, breaks down when you deal with nested structures like html/sexps 23:38:09 But something that kills inside of "", inside of () or everything until end-of-line looks like a trap to me more than like a nice binding 23:38:27 _danb_: with sexps- flat wrong 23:38:28 <_danb_> I imagine vim has extensions just like emacs does for handling these 23:38:54 Vim _core_ functionality is handling the concept of ".." and (..) and [..] 23:39:20 <_danb_> hmm, that's a new one 23:39:24 With XML there are some troubles, true. 23:39:33 <_danb_> I mean, new to me 23:39:58 -!- sanduz2 [~sanduz2@75-149-186-118-Miami.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:39:59 <_danb_> I just associate vi (and vim) with jkhl d f; / c wbe etc etc 23:40:31 Well, Vim has text objects 23:40:50 You can kill a "paragraph" or a "word" or a "() contents" 23:44:39 I'd say that Vim gives enough power that when you can do your current wish with a single command (maybe consisting of 5 keystrokes, but logically one command), you just don't want a DWIM C-k to provide you some fun, as Urist McProgrammer would say. 23:45:48 <_danb_> MichaelRaskin: can you evaluate an sexp directly in vim and see the result? 23:46:14 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 23:46:25 vim is a text editor 23:46:37 not an evaluator 23:46:42 :) 23:46:44 I used to use Limp for that (it would send the sexp to the screen with Lisp), but now I just do not want that 23:47:03 rien: it can be integrated with screen instance where evaluator runs, you know 23:47:26 yes I heard that many people use it with screen 23:47:34 mwolfe [~michael@cpe-67-49-72-40.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:48:05 Funny thing is that I find screen with Lisp calling transient Vim instance to edit the command-line more useful more often than direct sending of expressions to evaluate from Vim to screen 23:48:49 Maybe has to do with the fact that I use Vim to write code with complex enough structure that reloading the file is a better idea 23:50:12 that's what I do, edit the file, (load "file.scm") and play with it 23:55:56 groovy2shoes [~guv@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #scheme