00:00:24 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 00:00:45 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:00:51 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:00:51 erider [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/erider] has joined #scheme 00:29:25 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:30:06 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-202.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:30:11 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-202.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 00:38:36 Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 00:40:16 hmmm, this r6rs interpreter gives me {a b c} for '(a b c) 00:40:32 which makes me sort of whish I could use curly braces in scheme to denote a quoted list 00:43:06 Hahahahaha. 00:43:06 chemuduguntar [~user@smtp.touchcut.com] has joined #scheme 00:43:41 lewis1711: Just change the reader and writer. Done. :-P 00:44:36 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 00:44:41 being a noob I can't tell if you're just trolling, or telling me this is infact easy to do in scheme. I will proceed cautiously 00:46:29 Hahahaha. 00:46:43 Serious answer: it can be done that way, but I don't recommend it as a first resort. 00:47:10 (i.e., there's no built-in facilities to extend the reader and writer, as far as I know.) 00:47:16 lewis1711: sounds like Racket. 00:47:22 I think the {} mean "immutable list" 00:47:44 or, rather, "mutable list", since immutable is the default in racket 00:47:47 it's drracket, but it's an r6rs file 00:47:51 yeah 00:48:23 which reminds me, time to compile petit larceny. see what kind of C code it comes up with:D 00:55:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/erider] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:00:45 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:03:37 somnium [~user@184.42.0.205] has joined #scheme 01:04:21 come on lisp-paste, pull through for me.. 01:09:51 lewis1711: Just use the web site, and paste in the URL afterwards. 01:09:58 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:10:03 lewis1711: The bot isn't coming back just yet. 01:10:50 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:10:54 After you complete your paste, go to http://paste.lisp.org/ and find your paste, then paste its URL to the channel manually. 01:11:10 ah yes, here we go 01:11:19 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117862 01:11:20 :-) 01:11:51 the comments should explain it. however it still fails if I do (simplify '(a x 3)) or some other such nonsense, where the car of the list is a symbol 01:12:05 because it relies on evaluating it to check of it's a procedure 01:16:49 hi 01:19:07 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:19:41 hello 01:20:06 *offby1* favors gist.github.com, but admits that that's a personal preference 01:20:15 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:22:52 ha ha ha 8-}} 01:27:15 offby1: It certainly has the advantage of not being broken, or at least of having people who fix it when there are problems. 01:29:13 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-140-89.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:30:02 lisppaste has the advantage of not requiring logging in, and working well with w3m. :-P 01:30:40 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:33:50 is there anyway to see if something is a quoted procedure, without evaluating it? 01:33:51 *somnium* notices #scheme has an unusually high concentration of w3m users 01:34:04 basically the thing needs to work on 01:34:09 'a as well as '+ 01:34:15 lewis1711: No portable way to check. 01:34:18 where a is unbound 01:34:21 hmm 01:34:30 somnium: :-) 01:34:48 somnium: w3m is the browser of champions! :-D 01:35:32 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 01:35:39 Just like mutt is the mail client of champions. :-P 01:37:44 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-4dbed15d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:37:54 pygospa [~pygospa@kiel-4dbedc6c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 01:38:42 *somnium* can't function without kmail :/ 01:38:54 Hehehehe. 01:39:39 i tried to set up mutt a few days ago and failed miserably 01:39:51 Really? Is that possible? 01:39:58 to set it up? i guess not 01:40:14 No, I mean is it possible to fail miserably at setting up mutt. 01:40:19 the problem stemmed from trying to get mutt to interface with multiple imap servers 01:40:25 Ive tried to setup gnus and wanderlust a few times -- I think I just don't enjoy pain enough 01:40:33 its configuration file seems to support only one server at a time, or something 01:40:38 Well, you use "c" to switch folders. Specify an IMAP URL to connect. 01:40:50 Yes, it uses one folder at a time, which implies one server at a time. 01:40:57 obviously im not going to type in an imap url each time i want to connect to a server.. 01:41:20 You get history, so up-arrow to the one you want. 01:41:32 (I don't think the history persists across mutt invocations, though.) 01:42:22 Use "c?" (and put in the IMAP URL) to browse folders. 01:43:09 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 01:43:59 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:44:16 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:47:31 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:48:53 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@189.Red-83-37-197.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:50:07 -!- githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:50:12 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:50:41 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:51:33 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:54:53 hi, I'm a scheme newbie and i dont understand why i get an error when running this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117863 01:55:02 says that x is unbound 01:56:35 karljoh: You need to use let* instead of let. 01:56:55 karljoh: Using let is like saying (in Python syntax) x, y = 4, x + x. 01:57:04 karljoh: Using let* is like saying x = 4; y = x + x. 01:57:38 thank you so much :) 01:57:44 My pleasure. :-) 01:57:46 ive been scratching my head for a long time 01:58:28 I bet! *nods* 02:01:02 its strange though. When they introduce let in sicp at the end of chap 1, it seems possible to do it the way i wrote it 02:01:10 i must've misread 02:02:31 yes; what you've got will never work as written. 02:02:44 rudybot: (define (asdf) (let ((x 4) (y (+ x x))) (+ x y))) 02:02:45 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 02:02:45 *offby1: Done. 02:02:53 rudybot: (asdf) 02:02:53 *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: x in module: 'program 02:02:58 rudybot: (define (asdf) (let* ((x 4) (y (+ x x))) (+ x y))) 02:02:59 *offby1: Done. 02:03:00 rudybot: (asdf) 02:03:00 *offby1: ; Value: 12 02:03:02 ta da 02:03:32 karljoh: If the SICP example defines a different "x" _outside_ the let form, then that will work (and _that_ x will be the one used). 02:03:52 rudybot: (define x 3) (define (asdf) (let ((x 4) (y (+ x x))) (+ x y))) 02:03:53 cky: Done. 02:03:58 rudybot: (asdf) 02:03:59 cky: ; Value: 10 02:04:16 ah tricky 02:04:43 *offby1* nods gravely 02:04:52 -!- mwolfe [~michael@cpe-67-49-72-40.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:35 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-248-132.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:22:54 -!- fds [~frankie@unaffiliated/franki] has quit [Changing host] 02:22:54 fds [~frankie@fsf/member/fds] has joined #scheme 02:23:46 Kerrick2 [~Kerrick@71-214-232-177.desm.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 02:25:26 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-34-186-198.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:27:42 lewis1711 [~lewis@222-155-26-198.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 02:32:20 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:43:22 greyhame [~jao@245.Red-81-39-209.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 02:43:28 -!- greyhame [~jao@245.Red-81-39-209.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:43:29 greyhame [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 02:44:27 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 02:45:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:50:45 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:57:50 -!- Kerrick2 [~Kerrick@71-214-232-177.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Kerrick2] 02:58:03 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-214-232-177.desm.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 03:03:47 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:04:17 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-214-232-177.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:04:22 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-214-224-204.desm.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 03:05:19 -!- zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:07:14 zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:10:55 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:11:22 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-214-224-204.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:14:03 -!- karljoh [karljoh@h-79-127.A165.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:25:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:29:12 Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-214-224-204.desm.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 03:30:46 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:30:51 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@71-214-224-204.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:36:30 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 03:41:04 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 03:46:03 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@71-215-25-216.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:49:46 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 03:52:34 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176192117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:52:42 timj_ [~timj@e176192117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:55:26 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: night!] 03:58:17 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:00:32 foof: would you consider making srfi-28 or srfi-48 standard? 04:09:42 foof: in particular, the reference implementation of srfi 28 seems to be sufficient: https://gist.github.com/748003 04:12:56 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 04:15:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:20:56 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:23:29 lewis17111 [~lewis@222-155-24-197.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 04:23:44 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@222-155-26-198.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:29:10 -!- tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:33:17 -!- lewis17111 is now known as lewis1711 04:36:16 lewis17111 [~lewis@222-155-25-103.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 04:37:21 -!- sloyd [sloyd@station457.vo3.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 04:37:33 sloyd [sloyd@station457.vo3.net] has joined #scheme 04:38:35 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@222-155-24-197.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:40:46 -!- Gmind [~Deulamco@113.190.182.165] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:43:13 Gmind [~Deulamco@113.190.182.165] has joined #scheme 04:45:55 Chipmunk [~Kaushik@nat/google/x-hdetqtscfzvrwoky] has joined #scheme 04:47:59 klutometis, wild guess: he'd be more interested in doing something with his fmt library. 04:48:23 Checkie [4442@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 04:51:52 Riastradh: ah, interesting; didn't know about this: . 04:57:03 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:57:58 -!- sloyd [sloyd@station457.vo3.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:00:32 sloyd [sloyd@station457.vo3.net] has joined #scheme 05:02:55 DrDuck [~duck@216.186.151.63] has joined #scheme 05:04:11 -!- chemuduguntar [~user@smtp.touchcut.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:05:48 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-202.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:06:12 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 05:09:58 -!- mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:11:52 gawd; porting let-optionals is a pain in the ass. 05:12:15 Riastradh: didn't you have a discussion once on the merits of let-optionals vs. case-lambda, &c.? 05:15:25 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:16:15 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 05:16:23 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 05:20:47 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:25:52 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 05:28:54 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:39:23 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-202.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 05:40:00 -!- DrDuck [~duck@216.186.151.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:40:38 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-94.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 05:41:12 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-140-89.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:41:55 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-94.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 05:42:28 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-54.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:44:44 is there anyway I can replace the word lambda in my code? possibly with \ or  05:45:23 in racket you can 05:45:35 (you can use ) 05:46:56 am using r6rs, since that's what TSPL is in 05:47:08 -!- lewis17111 is now known as lewis1711 05:47:21 it should still work, afaik 05:47:56 "expand: unbound identifier in module in: " nah, not in r6rs mode 05:48:10 oh well 05:48:17 i guess r6rs has its own reader 05:48:17 am also thinking \ might be better as loads of people still don't seem to have unicode support 05:48:38 really? in 2010? 05:48:45 who doesnt have unicode support? 05:49:21 I remember i pased a bit of racket lambda stuff, and loads of people could not read it 05:49:29 *posted, in another IRC room 05:49:48 IIRC most windows command lines don't have unicode 05:50:13 i dont think the windows command line should be used for anything relevant.. 05:50:19 LOL 05:50:35 a few unix consoles can't to unicode, IIRC 05:50:48 thats true, i used to use aterm but switched to xterm just to get unicode 05:51:03 so its not that people can't get it, they are probably just too lazy 05:51:46 i dont know if a real tty supports unicode, but i have no sympathy for people who do real work in a tty 05:52:11 (i mean programming work, not sysadmin stuff) 05:52:45 programming in a tty is the new riding a fixie 05:52:50 minimalist hipster chic 05:54:04 there was a guy in my undergraduate class that told me with a straight face there is no reason to use x11, i was ilke .. are you serious 05:54:12 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-54.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:54:17 lewis1711: Orly? I program using vi, in a terminal window. 05:54:29 not even vim? 05:54:46 cky, an x11 terminal? 05:54:48 lewis1711: Well, I don't use any vim features, except syntax highlighting (and bracket matching). 05:54:57 jonrafkind: Yes, currently using mlterm. 05:55:08 that's different 05:55:10 well me too 05:55:23 he meant a real tty, like on the native console 05:55:32 I thought schemers were violently pro-emacs 05:55:36 or maybe that's cl folk 05:56:03 I think lispers in general have a penchant for emacs 05:56:10 Most Lisp programmers (of any dialect) are, but, I'm just a rebel like that. 05:56:17 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:56:30 though there's a disturbing trend amongst ex-java clojure users to use eclipse/netbeans 05:57:06 *somnium* wonders about SISC/Kawa/ABCL users 05:57:08 emacs can be nice. after you get rid of all the lisp machine key bindings that give you RSI 06:00:07 but I should probably stop talking about editors, as I am learning about syntactic extensions and noone in the room will want to help if I start giving my opinions on such a religious issue;) 06:01:28 i took my first dive Into some .el files I had downloaded to figure some stuff out and was confused by all the lisp-isms.. (apply 'foo 1 2 3) ??? 06:01:50 i eventually figured out my goal, but it took me 3 hours 06:02:05 yeah emacs can be a bit of a time sink, being so configurable 06:02:11 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-202.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:02:20 (apply 'foo 1 2 3) is not likely to work very well even in elisp. 06:03:03 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-94.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 06:03:32 why not? 06:03:45 Try it. 06:03:47 are you saying one cannot call `apply' on a symbol, foo? 06:03:55 (Substitute `+' for `foo', for example.) 06:04:13 ok well maybe the arguments are wrong, here is the real example 06:04:24 (apply 'agda2-go nil t t cmd 06:04:24 (format "%d" g) 06:04:24 (agda2-goal-Range o) 06:04:25 (agda2-string-quote txt) args) 06:04:43 i was only concerned with tracing the call chain, so i was looking at the first argument 06:04:54 But yes, symbols are inextricably connected to function and variable definitions in the semantics of an elisp program, unlike in Scheme, where they are sensibly separated. 06:05:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:05:50 hygienic macros, what an odd term. 06:06:22 perhaps the name was chosen to distance scheme from richard stallman 06:10:45 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:12:41 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-202.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 06:15:22 O_o 06:21:24 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 06:22:11 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-202.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:25:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:30:46 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:30:50 man, I need some better error messages than "bad syntax" 06:36:37 lewis1711: bad syntax 06:37:07 wut 06:37:14 lewis1711: bad syntax 06:37:21 :P 06:37:25 (Okay, enough with the "ed is the standard text editor" jokes.) 06:45:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:50:45 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:51:09 "following the list of auxillary keywords is a list of rules, or pattern/template pairs" 06:51:16 what is this witch-craft >( 06:54:27 -!- Gmind [~Deulamco@113.190.182.165] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:55:36 lewis1711: That's pretty clear to me. 06:55:39 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-74-52.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 06:55:57 lewis1711: That means, what follows is a list of rules (pattern/template pairs). 06:56:13 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-28-188.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:58:10 which bigs the quesiton, what are pattern/template pairs. perhaps I skipped over them 06:59:20 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@64.104.132.187] has joined #scheme 06:59:24 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@64.104.132.187] has quit [Changing host] 06:59:24 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 07:00:21 lewis1711: http://blog.willdonnelly.net/2008/09/04/a-scheme-syntax-rules-primer/ 07:00:25 lewis1711: You should study some of the macros built into Scheme, for guidance. Both the "cond" and "case" macros are excellent reading materials. 07:00:29 maybe useful 07:00:57 lewis1711: Also, for your own enlightenment, study the definitions of "let" (both plain and named) and "let*" also. 07:01:39 definitions in terms of what? I know what let does now, and use it 07:01:45 but yes I should read up on cond 07:01:53 -!- Checkie [4442@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:02:05 lewis1711: If you read the R5RS spec, it contains the actual definitions of the macros specified by the standard. 07:02:18 lewis1711: (I'm sure R6RS contains same; but I haven't studied R6RS.) 07:03:29 in TSPL they have definitions for and, or 07:03:45 but not really grokking it. will find macro definition for cond 07:06:57 r5rs cond 07:07:05 Oh dear. specbot died too? 07:07:47 Gmind [~Deulamco@113.190.182.165] has joined #scheme 07:09:14 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 07:10:13 lewis1711: See http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_7.3 07:10:15 http://tinyurl.com/424d9o 07:10:28 The first two macros are of special interest. 07:11:14 curious, does properly-tail-recursive imply that stack-overflows can never happen? 07:11:31 i don't understand that much at all 07:13:04 somnium: Yes, if all the recursions happen in tail position. 07:13:07 since any program with non-tail calls, can be cps-transformed to a program of nothing but tail calls. 07:13:12 cky: ^^ 07:13:14 Hmmm. 07:13:57 Do you have unlimited memory, somnium? 07:14:09 Riastradh: that's a different issue 07:14:17 Not really. 07:14:38 Chicken will let you run out of memory, but I imagine some implementations will blow the C/JVM stack in some cases 07:15:57 memory limits are so much greater than stack limits that it seems like a separate issue, at least practically 07:17:35 The stack is part of your computer's memory. 07:18:56 How you divide it up and name the parts (`stack [cache]', `heap', `nursery', `newspace', `oldspace', `large object space', &c.) doesn't change whether it's limited. 07:19:49 Riastradh: I'm not disputing that the stack is part of memory 07:21:42 somnium: But it seems you're robbing Peter to pay Paul. And for what? 07:22:12 The `stack' is just the part of the memory used only by a certain kind of (second-class) object, continuations. Suppose you got rid of this separate part of memory and stored continuations' environments in the heap. In terms of their storage (and ignoring, say, whether they are first-class or second-class), would continuations be substantively different from ordinary procedures then? 07:22:14 somnium: If a program has so many outstanding call frames that it would overflow the stack, perhaps the program's design is questionable. 07:22:47 (Note that proper tail recursion does not figure into my question.) 07:23:47 being limited by actual memory seems like 'the right thing', being limited by the host's stack size, which may be < 1% of actual ram, does not seem like 'the right thing' 07:25:04 somnium: So, do things the SISC way. Have all the call frames on the heap. It doesn't address the point that having that many call frames is just somehow wrong. 07:25:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:26:39 hmm, so if your program contains non-tail calls, it probably deserves to blow up, fix it 07:28:42 somnium: If it contains non-tail calls that get recursed into zillions of times, then yes. 07:30:56 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 07:34:01 yabp [~yabp@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 07:34:41 -!- yabp [~yabp@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #scheme 07:36:46 -!- Gmind [~Deulamco@113.190.182.165] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:37:12 I'm trying to find the right thing for a js toy. testing on v8, Array.map across 1million items as a base, trampolined cps-version of map across a list was 10x slower, iterating across the list into an array, then copying the array back to a list was only 20% slower 07:40:10 anyway, naive cps conversion is dog slow, and the stack blows up if you sneeze (I think some versions of Safari had a limit of ~100 frames) 07:44:48 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 07:46:16 Gmind [~Deulamco@113.190.182.165] has joined #scheme 07:53:32 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.20] has joined #scheme 07:55:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:59:41 cky: do you SISC? 08:00:45 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:01:22 -!- Chipmunk [~Kaushik@nat/google/x-hdetqtscfzvrwoky] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:03:15 Chipmunk [~Kaushik@nat/google/x-wccynsoafxuuczcq] has joined #scheme 08:06:11 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:13:51 gavino [~g@207-180-177-44.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 08:14:11 hallo, any one using scheme for a dynamic website care to share thier experiences? 08:15:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:17:31 foof: lastly, it might be nice to have some sort of regex facilities; what's your opinion on the portability of irregex to chibi? 08:17:43 -!- Chipmunk [~Kaushik@nat/google/x-wccynsoafxuuczcq] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:20:55 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:30:01 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:30:47 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 08:32:17 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:32:37 gavino: i shied away from using scheme-based servers for years; as one might do behind, say, mod_proxy. instead, i stuck to fast_cgi with scheme. 08:33:13 this was an irrational prejudice, though; and i may well use a scheme-based server for my next project. that, or scgi; i think. 08:35:57 :) 08:36:10 cky: i SISC'd back in the day; and had beautiful, recursive graph algorithms hit the stack ceiling. 08:36:11 relaional database or no-sql something? 08:36:27 oow what would happen then 08:36:57 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 08:37:00 gavino: both: couch, mssql, postgresql and mysql. 08:37:14 couch via ; whoops, not documented. 08:37:47 somnium: whoops; see above (accidentally addressed to cky). 08:38:35 couch wazat? 08:40:08 gavino: so-called "no-sql"; . 08:41:46 minsa [minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:44:40 www.prevayler.org 09:05:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:10:15 -!- TheSeparateOne [~jeffrey@ip72-207-124-108.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:10:18 -!- xwl_ [~wixu@nat/nokia/x-yneayhjlsbeeyccx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:10:46 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:16:47 klutometis: I recently broke something in records (make test-records fails), it's probably trivial, will fix ASAP. 09:17:10 be dope if cl-prevalence was maintained 09:17:23 I dislike SRFI-28/48 greatly. I'll port my fmt library to chibi. 09:18:05 IrRegex works out of the box in chibi. I may make a smaller version for distribution with chibi though. 09:18:37 chibi? 09:22:29 xwl_ [~wixu@nat/nokia/x-xqavcntoudqwmqxv] has joined #scheme 09:25:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:25:29 gavino: a scheme implementation 09:26:11 IrRegex actually works out of the box in every Scheme I know of - if it doesn't, that's a bug. 09:28:49 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #scheme 09:30:55 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:43:15 slom [~sloma@port-87-234-239-162.static.qsc.de] has joined #scheme 09:51:47 -!- Gmind [~Deulamco@113.190.182.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:55:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:00:45 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 10:02:56 bugs! 10:02:59 stamp em! 10:03:34 -!- Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-79-179-17-189.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:10:24 Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-79-176-8-22.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 10:10:42 -!- Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-79-176-8-22.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:11:55 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 10:16:58 Chipmunk [~Kaushik@nat/google/x-tapqnjgvnyrcyxgp] has joined #scheme 10:20:28 lewis17111 [~lewis@125-239-249-154.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 10:21:04 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@222-155-25-103.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:28:59 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:30:53 mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 10:33:32 ray_ [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 10:34:31 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:36:10 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.20] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:45:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:50:45 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 10:54:28 Arafangion [~arafangio@60-241-250-19.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 10:55:35 Why does lisp use s-exp's, whereas most "traditional" languagages, such as what is commonly called the "C-family", or the "Pascal family" of languages (however we classify them), tend to use m-exp's instead? Only Lisp seems to have moved from m-exp's to s-expr's? 10:55:46 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 10:56:11 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-111-155.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 10:56:13 -!- Chipmunk [~Kaushik@nat/google/x-tapqnjgvnyrcyxgp] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:57:48 lisp is older than c 10:58:43 noonian: That's not really an answer. :) 11:00:34 Arafangion: maybe this gives you some hints: http://www8.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/html/lisp/histlit1.html 11:03:27 C-Keen: Awesome, I'll have to read that. :) 11:03:42 yeah i dont have the real answer, just think s-expressions look more like function syntax from mathematics 11:04:02 C-Keen: I was more wondering why other languages never picked it up (Current popular languages seem to be boasting that they support more and more lisp features, but I've yet to see much support for actual s-expr's). 11:04:20 noonian: Really? When I did maths, ,we always used m-expr's. 11:04:38 noonian: P(x), F(y), F'(y), and so on. 11:05:18 oh yes, I guess I didnt know what m-expressions were :P 11:06:29 karljoh [karljoh@h-79-127.A165.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #scheme 11:09:58 Arafangion: one of the reasons is that parsing s-expr is dead easy 11:11:31 I would imagine it was because that's not the way maths notation is written 11:11:34 C-Keen: Surely that's not a justifiable reason on its own? 11:11:47 -!- lewis17111 is now known as Lewis1711 11:12:05 but as for calling s-exp a feature of the language, isnt the only feature that data is represented the same way as the code? 11:12:34 though I wonder if we are all taught to do maths with s-expressions as childrens, whether we'd think infix is ugly...i am starting to prefer s expressions I think 11:13:57 " Kuenstiche Intelligenz" hehe, I love it 11:14:04 Lewis1711: Isn't scheme more like (+ 1 2 3), when infix is more like (1 + 2 + 3) ? 11:14:13 pretty much 11:14:39 yes 11:14:43 ah, i meant "if we WERE all taught to do maths with s-expressions as children 11:14:45 " 11:15:10 but m expressions are prefix also 11:15:32 +(1 2) 11:16:19 noonian: Yup, but what I don't get is why everybody screams "It's madness. MADNESS!", when they see a lisp s-exp, but they're fine with an m-expr? 11:17:29 Arafangion, yeah, maybe just because we never saw the function name inside a parent ever in math 11:17:44 noonian: the problem with mathematics is that while most functions are written as m expressions, some are written infix, and still others postfix 11:17:44 except when composing functions 11:17:55 yeah 11:18:02 sin(x), a+b, n! 11:18:14 everything is pretty consistent in scheme which is nice 11:18:23 Lewis1711: That's only a *subset* of the maths notations! 11:18:41 yeah, I never claimed all of maths could be done like that;) 11:19:56 and some are hard to type hehe 11:19:57 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-111-155.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:20:46 I'm a maths major, and the uniformity of s expressions is what has attracted me to scheme, though I've only been using it for a couple of weeks 11:21:33 have you looked at lambda calculus at all? 11:21:45 *Arafangion* has *glanced* at it. 11:22:19 :) 11:22:27 sweet link 11:22:28 theoretical basis of scheme, and kind of interesting 11:22:38 wish more mccarthy on youtube 11:22:48 noonian: a little bit. I never got what it was really "about" though, hasn't really sparked an interest 11:23:35 gavino: I dislke the sudden prevalance of "developer videos". :( 11:25:48 Lewis1711, basically just that you have a turing complete language with nothing but lambdas of one argument 11:26:41 part of schemes simplicity 11:27:35 I'll have to look into it at some stage 11:27:50 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #scheme 11:27:53 i tried having a go at common lisp the other day, i found it really weird. 11:28:02 I think one LISP is enough for me 11:29:53 Every time I want to properly learn just /one/ lisp, I always feel like I want to write my own interpreter for it... And then I remember that I still have to cook dinner. :( 11:32:22 lol 11:34:33 -!- slom [~sloma@port-87-234-239-162.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:40:17 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:40:41 well I look at tcl, which has event driven built in, and suposedly has abstraction of netowrk 11:40:51 can this be a ruder but mroe practive language? 11:42:56 Well, the languages I like so far are Python, Ruby, C#, and C++, for different reasons. 11:43:09 tcl is like a cat 11:43:13 I think Python is the most practicle of the four. 11:43:17 *practical. 11:43:29 Jafet: Selfish, and never does what you tell it to do? 11:43:32 It will bounce around doing all sorts of silly things with string, but try to get it be useful and it'll slow to a crawl 11:43:41 Jafet: Ha, nice! 11:43:58 I'm found of ruby. shame the preformance is so atrocious 11:44:09 *fond 11:44:12 tcl is actually listed as one of the reasons for GNU inventing guile. 11:44:39 and it's also a shame guile isn't r6rs. may still use it at some point though. 11:44:51 I'm not sure if guile is even r5rs 11:44:54 Lewis1711: I've not noticed ruby's performance issues... But then, I tend to use it for projects where its performance is NOT the bottleneck. (For example, Rakefiles) 11:44:55 is mit scheme r6? 11:45:07 no 11:45:54 there's only a few. maybe scheme will get stuck in a time warp like C, where there's only a few compilers that fully implement c99:P 11:46:14 the list is getting bigger nowadays 11:46:37 Not even Microsoft's C compiler supports C99. :( 11:46:47 (Not even stdtypes.h!!!) 11:47:01 X-Scale [~email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #scheme 11:47:08 clang may support it fully by now 11:47:38 is there a new version of c manual planned? 11:47:44 or must one read the standard? 11:47:59 ah programing 11:48:06 tiz not as easy as once thought 11:48:12 Well, C doesn't have a stdtypes.h. 11:48:33 what would you consider the most impresive scheme app you saw? 11:48:38 siag office was pretty cool 11:48:59 Jafet: I might have spelt it wrong... But I'm fairly sure that it's part of C99. 11:49:17 gavino: It was cool... Pity it wasn't entirely practical. :( 11:49:31 oh? 11:49:38 did you find many limitiations? 11:49:51 sreadsheet seemed ok 11:50:36 From memory (it was many years ago when I last looked at it), it was very minimal. You had more functionality with Gnumeric. 11:50:52 Although Gnumeric is indeed much heavier in terms of system resources, even as light as it is. 11:51:19 But it was mostly the word processor I was looking at, for some reason I preferred abiword. 11:51:28 (That and LyX, depending on what I was doing) 11:55:28 Development of Siag office has almost stopped, by the looks of things. 11:55:30 (Must've been 10 years since I last looked at it, actually - perhaps it's mature now) 11:56:51 -!- karljoh [karljoh@h-79-127.A165.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:57:06 I am trying to do computer algebra with scheme. not that i know anything about it. but i know algebra, so perhaps i can learn computers:P 11:57:17 tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has joined #scheme 11:57:44 Lewis1711: Linear Algebra? 11:57:52 Good project. :) 11:57:56 no, arithmetic with symbols 11:58:19 Most people would be checking out Octave, or if they have buckets of cash just lying about, Matlab. 11:58:46 Lewis1711: Non-linear algebra? 11:58:56 Calculus? 12:00:10 eventually:P 12:00:13 to calculus 12:00:31 Have fun. :) It's not nearly as bad as people claim it is. 12:00:45 It's mostly pattern recognition - you learn the patterns, and you apply the ones you see. 12:01:53 are you talking about calculus or scheme? 12:02:50 To be honest, I don't actually know Scheme. "Calculus" on its own usually doesn't refer to Lambda Calculus, which, incidentially, I'm also ignorant of. 12:03:11 davazp [~user@3.Red-83-46-6.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:03:38 there are so many interesting things 12:03:43 so little time 12:03:47 -!- puddingpimp [npetbx@118-93-162-219.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:04:02 Caleb-- [thedude@bzq-79-176-8-22.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 12:04:04 gavino: Indeed. :( 12:04:32 Lewis1711, there is a section on that sort of thing in SICP 12:04:49 they do symbolic differentiation 12:04:53 Lewis1711: Essentially, whenever you have a trivial equation you need to find the exact integral or derivative, or whatever, you do it by applying learnt patterns to it that match. 12:04:58 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 12:05:01 -!- minsa [minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:05:14 Lewis1711: If you don't know of a pattern, you have to brute-force it, with heaps of computation, the more computation, the less error. 12:05:48 *Arafangion* hasn't done calculus for over 6 years. 12:07:17 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:07:17 lol 12:07:40 I am trying to think what standard maths notation is for a known and unknown variable 12:07:48 x 12:07:48 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 12:07:52 x -7 12:08:10 unknown variable is an expresion based on known variable eh 12:08:17 y - 4xdx 12:08:24 y = 4xdx 12:08:37 Lewis1711: If it's of the form Ax^n + Bx^(n-1) + ... = 0; then you're dealing with linear algebra. 12:09:18 (Actually, not sure if that's strictly correct?) 12:09:24 well that's a polynomial 12:09:33 you can write matrices as polynomials 12:09:41 s-expressions enable homoiconicity 12:09:48 that's why Lisps use them 12:10:07 easy to use metaprogramming is hard without homoiconicity 12:10:46 Yeah, you'd have to write very explicit models otherwise, as I currently do in C#. 12:11:02 right. you tend to get into some kind of templating system 12:11:19 and even good ones of those suck 12:11:35 bad ones, like the C++ template system, are a temple of horrors 12:11:52 Adamant: Alas, it's one of the better ones. :( 12:12:05 you have to put on your Indiana Jones hat to raid useful shit out of those 12:12:28 Well, I use C#... It's "generics" are very limited. :( 12:12:33 ah 12:12:50 Python, on the other hand, barely even needs the notion. 12:13:02 But you'd still tend to need to write a model. 12:13:06 true, but it's also dynamically typed 12:13:11 which is why 12:13:45 C# is being increasonly dynamically typed, but it's still more or less statically typed behind the scenes. 12:16:14 Still, the languages separate code from data, so you must write an explicit model if you want to merge them somehow. 12:16:30 yeah 12:17:23 got siag instaaled 12:17:27 pretty k00l 12:17:36 I've now found an old website that is talking about the woes of C++'s templating engine. 12:17:48 -!- gavino [~g@207-180-177-44.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:19:31 yeah I wouldn't even both with C++ for that 12:19:36 then again i don't really know the language 12:19:49 It's saying that it's impossible to implement functions such as 'min' and 'max. 12:19:52 'max'. 12:19:58 humm 12:20:45 speaking of functions, I am trying to think of how to write something that would go through a list of symbols, a group together identical ones, like '(a a b c) => ((* 2 a) b c)) 12:21:35 I could do a really inefficient filter thing 12:21:52 The guy who is saying that it's impossible, is the author of "Modern C++ Design". 12:22:08 name? 12:22:18 Okay, okay, it's enough that #haskell already becomes ##c++ every other rowdy night 12:22:23 You don't have to drag it in here. 12:22:27 Andrei Alexandrescu 12:22:41 Arafangion: yeah, he's working on D now 12:22:47 Yep. 12:23:28 I should get ready for bed, so Jafet can stop pacing about because of the state of the channel. 12:23:49 lewis: it's only inefficient if you expect to be manipulating thousands of variables. 12:24:26 Lewis1711: In The Art Of Unix Programming, they suggest that you use the simplist algorithm, because they are faster if N is small - and N is usually small. 12:25:05 Lewis1711: If you know that N will tend to be "huge", that's when I'd pick a fancy algorithm. 12:25:14 hmm 12:25:26 I was just going to map a filter over it 12:25:51 though i am checking the relevant sections TSPL to see if there's anything already that does what I want 12:26:19 Lewis1711: If you're thinking of using a hash table of some sort, you'll have to contend with the overhead of the hash. 12:26:52 no, never crossed my mind 12:27:19 Lewis1711: It should. :) 12:27:50 Lewis1711: In your case, I'd just use lists. 12:27:57 Bear in mind what algebra you're working in 12:28:13 Like, whether it really is true that (* a b) = (* b a) 12:28:57 Even if they're commutative, they might not be in practice if you're contending with floating point values or other approximations. 12:29:36 Jafet: yeah, I am just doing "scalar algebra", so that will be true 12:29:44 masm [~masm@bl16-198-62.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 12:30:06 Looking up "field" in your math books may help. 12:30:57 Chipmunk [~Kaushik@nat/google/x-tbdkohqjwckfdnbd] has joined #scheme 12:31:10 (* a b c) might not equal (* c b a) if a is huge, and c is tiny. 12:31:29 in TSPL, there are loads of entries with 3 or so names 12:31:43 like remq, remv, remove 12:32:47 ..which has something todo with eq? eqv? and equal? err 12:33:45 Lewis1711: Be thankful you're not using Perl. :) 12:33:59 http://www.ozonehouse.com/mark/periodic/ 12:34:35 ha 12:34:55 I am unable to tell if the author did that as a joke, or if he's being serious. 12:35:17 Larry Wall? I think perl started off as a joke.. 12:35:25 oh you mean the period table 12:35:31 The periodic table, yes. 12:35:53 I suspect that it's indeed a joke - the tone is unneccessarily indulgent. 12:37:47 Lewis1711: COnsidering your confusion about 'eq?', 'eqv?', 'equal?', while I don't know Scheme, I would assume that they may well have subtle differences. 12:37:59 Lewis1711: For example, one might only return true if they're the same actual object in RAM. 12:38:15 Lewis1711: Another might return true if the value more or less means the same. 12:38:26 Lewis1711: And another might return true only if the contents are the same. 12:38:45 well that's pretty wild speculation isn't it:P 12:39:08 one of them might pour me a whiskey and give me a back massage 12:39:20 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-2.html#%_toc_%_sec_6.1 has it all 12:39:21 http://tinyurl.com/2clun78 12:39:47 Lewis1711: If you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras. :) 12:40:04 Lewis1711: And this distinction between the different types of equality is present in many languages. 12:40:09 here you are assuming I don't live in rural botswana 12:40:43 Lewis1711: The point is to thikn of the most likely reason. It's much more likely to be true. 12:40:45 Lewis1711, theres this but its way too much code it feels like http://pastebin.com/3uQ4UNtG 12:41:59 noonian: interesting. never actually used loop before, not sure what it does:/ 12:42:10 oh my bad, you let'd it 12:42:12 thats just a name 12:42:14 yeah 12:42:31 loop is my go-to name :P 12:42:44 records are new 12:42:49 (to me) 12:43:06 yeah im not really using records either just association lists 12:43:14 let me digest this eqv/eq/equals thing C-Keen linked first, hold up 12:43:41 (assoc a '((c 1) (a 12))) ;=> (a 12) 12:47:44 right, eqv makes most sense right now 12:47:48 on to noonians function 12:48:54 basically i build up a list of the vars and how many times weve seen it, then collapse it so if youve only seen it once it just is the var otherwise '(* count var) 12:49:27 btw the first line has a typo 12:58:08 -!- Chipmunk [~Kaushik@nat/google/x-tbdkohqjwckfdnbd] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:01:43 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 13:02:20 -!- zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:02:41 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 13:05:05 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:08:41 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:08:48 Somelauw [~anonymous@031-214-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl] has joined #scheme 13:09:11 Is there a nice way to use bitmasks in lisp. 13:10:01 Somelauw: what's your use case? 13:10:21 I want to input a number as binary. 13:10:29 Like (bin 101) = 3. 13:11:04 The only way I could think of was using (number->string bitmask 2) 13:11:10 Is there a better way? 13:11:20 that depends on your scheme system 13:11:25 Especially when I have a list of bitmasks. 13:11:26 this is all nonstandard behaviour 13:11:29 I am using racket. 13:11:38 I don't know which scheme is the best one. 13:12:32 so what do you want to do with the bitmask? 13:12:58 I want to use it as a bitset in which elements can be enabled and disables. 13:13:11 for racket there is http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/generic-numbers.html?q=bitwise&q=bitmask#(part._.Bitwise_.Operations) 13:13:12 http://tinyurl.com/27h2kbc 13:14:28 hkBst [~quassel@79.170.210.174] has joined #scheme 13:14:28 -!- hkBst [~quassel@79.170.210.174] has quit [Changing host] 13:14:28 hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 13:16:02 -!- Lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-249-154.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:17:52 Okay, I am having something like: (map (lambda (x) (string->number x 2)) '("1001" "0110" "1001")) 13:18:01 f or r6rs (rnrs arithmetic bitwise) http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-12.html#node_sec_11.1 13:18:14 I was looking for a nicer way. 13:18:45 I don't think there is an alternative. 13:18:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-123.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 13:19:06 femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-143-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 13:19:40 that looks pretty nice to me with map 13:20:52 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #scheme 13:21:32 Why not name what the bits stand for? (define read-bit 1) (define write-bit 2).... (open "file" (bitwise-or read-bit write-bit)) ? 13:22:26 Somelauw: Are you using bits as a mis-guided attempt to be "efficient"? 13:22:56 Well, the code is more complicated and looks like this: http://pastebin.com/mPxD1jBX 13:23:11 also you can enter them as literals: #b101 13:23:21 C-keen, I don't get the idea completely. 13:23:21 slom [~sloma@port-87-234-239-162.static.qsc.de] has joined #scheme 13:23:25 no need to parse them 13:23:38 Okay that #b things looks cool 13:23:59 Somelauw: how is 2 different from #b10 ? 13:24:50 It isn't, but #b demonstrates closer how my programs works. 13:25:38 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-111-155.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 13:26:18 Arafagion, I use bitmasks instead of sets, so it should be more efficient. 13:26:55 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 13:27:08 Somelauw: my point above was to put emphasis on what your bitmask stands for instead of the actual magic value. But your approach might be more sensible I don't know your program 13:27:10 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 13:27:12 somelauw i would just (define (make-bitmask bstring) (string->number bstring 2)) then it is more readable 13:27:56 but i just think that #b10 looks ugly 13:28:12 Does scheme have any documentation tools like pydoc or javadoc? (I often try to google things, but I can't find them) 13:28:26 #b seems nicer to me 13:28:44 And also saves me some typing, since I have a list of bitmasks. 13:29:26 You are right that it probably becomes clearer if I make it an external function instead of a lambda. 13:29:26 Somelauw: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/index.html for your scheme 13:29:39 as far as documentation you just have the standards r5rs r6rs and rackets own docs 13:29:40 racket has got nice docs 13:29:50 and srfi's 13:30:19 I was looking whether there was some #b like feature in racket, so I searched on binary, but got stuff about how to write binary files and such. 13:30:33 Somelauw: see http://www.schemers.org/ for more reading material 13:30:53 Somelauw: you should have searched for 'literals' and 'numbers' 13:33:06 literals doesn't give any results 13:33:09 numbers works 13:33:16 When using the racket manual 13:33:46 Thanks 13:38:03 You are welcome 13:41:09 -!- noonian 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[~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:07:04 rajeshsr [~rajeshsr@115.242.194.36] has joined #scheme 16:10:46 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:15:27 I've downloaded the Racket.sh bin, now how do I install it. :| 16:15:29 -!- xwl_ [~wixu@nat/nokia/x-xqavcntoudqwmqxv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:39 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A906C8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:16:05 DrDuck: Open up a terminal and run it as "sh path-to-the-racket-file-you-downloaded.sh" 16:16:44 Where's a good place to put it? 16:16:51 In your opinion, chandler? 16:18:37 I'd expand it as an in-place installation in your home directory. 16:25:23 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:30:47 erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:32:01 -!- kephas 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#scheme 17:56:11 BW^- [~Miranda@92.81.222.224] has joined #scheme 17:56:21 now how do i split a string into fragments divided by char-set:whitespace of srfi 14? 17:58:59 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:24 using pregexp for it. 18:02:56 jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 18:03:33 BW^-: You could use string-tokenize from srfi-13 18:03:50 (and invert the charset) 18:03:59 aha 18:04:06 thx for the idea 18:04:10 yw 18:07:12 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-181-145.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:07:42 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:07:52 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-94.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:07:57 Does anyone use the Bigloo complier, or have any compliments/complaints about it? 18:09:47 dettymac: basically it's good. 18:10:09 as i got it, it tries to make a scheme atop c++, that kind of fits into c++ thinking 18:10:28 a bit like scheme as a library 18:10:37 it uses the boehm gc library for gc 18:11:05 it has been used in at least two real-world apps, a php compiler and an electricity grid app 18:11:38 i believe your choice of bigloo vs. another environment needs to be determined by your unique, specific needs and requirements for your software. 18:12:32 weird, the version that port was listing is 2.0.1 but after try to unistall it i saw this... ---> Uninstalling redis @1.2.6_1 18:12:38 :s 18:12:49 sorry wrong channel :) 18:12:55 :) 18:12:56 fail 18:13:28 -!- BW^- [~Miranda@92.81.222.224] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 18:20:39 zevarito: te vi 18:23:13 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:27:18 tizoc: :) 18:29:44 -!- zevarito [~zevarito@unaffiliated/zevarito] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:18 zevarito [~zevarito@r186-48-239-189.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 18:30:52 ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 18:32:51 Gmind [~Deulamco@113.190.202.190] has joined #scheme 18:33:23 -!- Gmind [~Deulamco@113.190.202.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:43 nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has joined #scheme 18:40:16 -!- nilg [~user@77.70.2.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:01 Maxel [~Maxel@71-89-86-205.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 18:49:28 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:55:42 hello, schemesters. 18:56:39 pumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.205] has joined #scheme 18:56:39 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.205] has quit [Changing host] 18:56:39 pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 18:59:07 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:03:30 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@71-89-86-205.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:05:54 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-143-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:14 davazp [~user@3.Red-83-46-6.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:37:33 mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 19:47:19 -!- somnium [~user@184.42.0.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48:16 Riastradh: yes, constructive analysis isn't for faint of heart as of today. 19:48:29 Riastradh: OTOH, it helps to avoid some topological insanity. 19:48:42 (for obvious reasons) 19:52:18 femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-143-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 20:03:18 femtooo 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seconds] 21:17:58 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-31-12.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:22:31 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-143-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:30:30 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-31-134.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:35:50 -!- zevarito [~zevarito@r186-48-239-189.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:31 -!- Chipmunk [~Kaushik@74.125.63.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:40:14 -!- erider [~chatzilla@pool-108-3-149-46.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:40:15 erider [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/erider] has joined #scheme 21:43:18 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-210-54.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:47:12 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 21:48:01 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:51 khisanth_ [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-28-63.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:49:58 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-31-134.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:50:04 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:50:49 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:51:27 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:52:15 Hooray for making programs in scheme! 21:52:17 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-111-155.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 21:52:19 I like Racket. 21:52:54 Yes, making programs in scheme is good 21:53:00 That's what it's for, anyway! 21:54:12 I'm using 'How to Design Programs' as a primer for SICP - didn't feel like I was covering ground well enough. Hopefully I see an improvement when I try SICP again tonight. 21:58:52 -!- khisanth_ [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-28-63.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:59:24 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-111-155.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:59:25 pothos [~pothos@111-240-210-54.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 22:03:10 neilv [~user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 22:03:10 -!- neilv [~user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:03:10 neilv [~user@unaffiliated/neilv] has joined #scheme 22:09:35 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 22:10:42 laurus [~laurus@c-68-40-207-109.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:11:25 I'm trying to add a line break between calls of the format command on lists. The code is here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117902 . I want to add the line break inside the call to dump-db. How do I do that? 22:16:58 Never mind, got it. 22:16:59 -!- laurus [~laurus@c-68-40-207-109.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #scheme 22:18:52 khisanth_ [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-6-202.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:27:01 -!- khisanth_ [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-6-202.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:31:54 -!- nmg [~nickga@dsl78-143-210-236.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:33:02 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:40:52 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:40:56 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:06 zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:41:14 -!- rajeshsr [~rajeshsr@115.184.87.193] has quit [Quit: rajeshsr] 22:46:54 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-4-48.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:47:03 -!- aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 22:49:30 lewis1711 [~lewis@222-155-24-147.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 22:52:43 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e0b815c.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:02 schmir [~schmir@p54A906C8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 23:00:17 -!- pumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:03:22 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A906C8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:07:21 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #scheme 23:10:02 bitweiler [~bitweiler@adsl-99-40-236-82.dsl.stl2mo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:10:09 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:10:19 greetings ;) 23:12:18 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #scheme 23:15:54 hi 23:16:28 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:18:23 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 23:18:56 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #scheme 23:21:20 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:21:26 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 23:22:32 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 23:25:09 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #scheme 23:25:43 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:50 -!- zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:28:18 -!- karljoh [karljoh@h-79-127.A165.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:29:54 petrus [~petrus@unaffiliated/petrus] has joined #scheme 23:33:46 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #scheme 23:35:22 zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:37:19 karljoh [karljoh@h-79-127.A165.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #scheme 23:46:15 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 23:46:53 -!- petrus [~petrus@unaffiliated/petrus] has left #scheme 23:47:12 is it the case that APPEND runs in linear time; whereas CONS, constant? 23:47:49 implementation dependent, perhaps? have to use the god-damned scientific method with mine? 23:48:08 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:48:09 I don't understand why it would be different 23:48:14 they're both linked lists 23:48:30 wrt to APPEND: "The resulting list is always newly allocated..." 23:48:34 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_420 23:48:35 http://tinyurl.com/5ccsel 23:48:48 wrt CONS: "Returns a newly allocated pair..." 23:48:51 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_390 23:48:51 http://tinyurl.com/6pd7cx 23:48:57 oh 23:48:57 wtf 23:49:07 seems to imply that the list is reallocated on the one hand; on the other, merely a pair. 23:49:59 -!- davazp [~user@3.Red-83-46-6.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:27 i've just never found a satisfying solution to the classic conundrum where i'm CONSing during an iteration; only to be forced to reverse at the end, or APPEND instead along the way. 23:50:51 happens mainly with input streams; otherwise, it's usually possible to restructure as a recursion. 23:51:05 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:51:16 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:51:18 kenjin [~kenjin@211.177.89.126] has joined #scheme 23:51:44 -!- kenjin is now known as Guest51088 23:51:51 hmm; on the other hand, i guess i can just recurse to eof-object and unwind. ok. 23:52:03 klutometis: APPEND would reallocate a new list, as in, all nodes in the new list are fresh. 23:52:27 klutometis: CONS only reallocates one node. 23:52:40 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #scheme 23:53:10 cky: that's what i intuited, and why i always mistrusted APPEND; but it's nice to see it corroborated in R5RS. 23:54:27 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 23:54:36 cky: all nodes save one, by the way: "...except that it shares structure with the last list argument," is the addendum to that phrase. 23:54:52 w.r.t. APPEND, that is. 23:55:47 -!- Guest51088 [~kenjin@211.177.89.126] has quit [Client Quit] 23:56:00 kenjin_ [~kenjin@211.177.89.126] has joined #scheme 23:57:33 -!- kenjin_ [~kenjin@211.177.89.126] has quit [Client Quit] 23:57:48 kenjin_ [~kenjin@211.177.89.126] has joined #scheme 23:57:53 lewis17111 [~lewis@222-155-165-23.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 23:58:51 -!- kenjin_ [~kenjin@211.177.89.126] has quit [Client Quit] 23:59:02 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@211.177.89.126] has joined #scheme 23:59:54 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@222-155-24-147.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]