00:03:45 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90C85.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:57 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 00:07:41 schmir [~schmir@p54A90C85.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 00:07:53 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90C85.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09:05 thanks for the help, i figured it out. 00:12:44 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:04 drdo` [~user@77.54.208.2] has joined #scheme 00:13:12 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46] has joined #scheme 00:14:24 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:14:30 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 00:16:37 -!- jeapostrophe_ [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe_] 00:16:59 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 00:35:26 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:35:59 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 00:36:22 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:39:13 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.80.123] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:07 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:44:39 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 00:50:23 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:51:51 tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has joined #scheme 00:52:40 -!- Leonidas [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:54:54 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 01:04:51 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 01:07:24 Leonidas_ [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 01:07:33 -!- Leonidas_ is now known as Leonidas 01:12:05 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@217.191.199.228] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:12:14 TheRealPygo [~pygospa@217.191.222.245] has joined #scheme 01:19:39 -!- drdo [~user@77.54.208.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:20:32 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 01:28:19 -!- felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Quit: felipe] 01:32:32 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:49 -!- Azuvix [~james@174-27-34-218.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:35:37 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:47:20 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:50:34 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 01:50:34 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:51:56 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 01:52:30 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-ogfrciryxbkwbzys] has joined #scheme 01:54:23 -!- tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:54:44 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-ogfrciryxbkwbzys] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56:08 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-rrvcrfkscrxxwuhp] has joined #scheme 02:03:59 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:06:20 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-rrvcrfkscrxxwuhp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:06:56 Kerrick [~Kerrick@b01-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 02:07:38 Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-27-34-218.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 02:08:01 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-fegrdgsckktxtjsj] has joined #scheme 02:09:31 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 02:15:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-146-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:16:33 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #scheme 02:20:27 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:25:08 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:27:38 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 02:27:50 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 02:33:15 Hum. Smells like bubble sort 02:33:52 Smells like n^2 02:33:58 or some bogo sort, since the spec has no "sequentially" around "comparing". 02:34:55 Wait, the above sentence may contain crap. 02:35:46 anyway 02:35:54 -!- bgs100 is now known as robot100 02:36:01 -!- robot100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 02:37:53 Axioplase_: are you french 02:38:26 banisterfiend: I sure am. 02:38:44 Did I just use some typical French idiom? 02:43:12 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:43:22 yes 02:43:27 can you guess what it was 02:43:37 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.205] has joined #scheme 02:43:37 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.205] has quit [Changing host] 02:43:37 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 02:44:42 I didn't write "may be full of crap / may be crappy" 02:45:40 The over use of "merde" in a quite literal way I'd say. 02:45:57 Or "has no" instead of proper "doesn't have any" 02:46:08 I think that both may be a hint. 02:48:06 Or, it could be "smells like", even though I was thinking of Nirvana's famous song. 02:48:33 I vote for "smell like" instead of "sounds like" 02:48:52 s/vote for/bet on/ 02:52:52 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 02:54:32 Axioplase_: it was the "hum" 02:54:56 haha :) 02:55:18 should've written "hmmm"? 02:55:47 well, that's the way native english speakers seem to write it :) 02:55:50 but i prefer 'hum' 02:56:01 hmm, weird. 02:56:18 also when french speakers get frustrated they type things like "oufff" or "eufff" 02:56:24 that's a give away too :) 02:56:31 banisterfiend: ouff? 02:56:39 like a sound of frustration 02:56:44 Not when frustrated, afaik 02:56:47 may be equivalent to 'pfft' but not quite 02:56:49 "Ouf" is "phew" 02:56:54 ah 02:56:54 hehe 02:57:04 after you nearly got busted/killed/disconnected/whatever 02:57:15 i just remember when i used to annoy my french friend she'd type 'eufff' 02:57:29 so i figured it was frustration 02:57:35 banisterfiend: Are you a native English speaker? 02:57:40 yea 02:57:59 because you write no cap at the beginning of English, French 02:58:04 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-fegrdgsckktxtjsj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:58:12 im just lazy :) 02:58:37 I blame the internet. 02:58:53 i blame sarkozy 02:59:28 He's not responsible for hum, ouff, euff nor IRC grammar 03:00:32 And politics on the internet seldom make people befriend, so let's not talk about him 03:00:53 Axioplase_: Does your keyboard have an elipsis key or is that being generated by some software on your end? 03:01:37 danking: I used a dvorak-bépo layout, with an easy-to-access ellipsis 03:01:48 use 03:02:35 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:02:37 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 03:02:38 Axioplase_: is it true that french females prefer it dans la cou 03:02:55 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Client Quit] 03:03:03 "dans la cou"? 03:03:17 in the ass? 03:03:26 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 03:03:55 Axioplase_: Neat 03:04:09 why doesn't this work? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/298803/ 03:04:30 I'd expect that val is known inside external due to parameterize 03:04:33 The occasional linguistic interlude may not be on-topic in #scheme, but the conversation has taken a rather different turn now; perhaps you folks could return it to the subject of Scheme. 03:04:52 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-fwqgzlkroyjjozif] has joined #scheme 03:05:29 Leonidas: can you apply val? 03:05:33 Leonidas, parameters are ordinary values. The variables by which you refer to them are ordinary lexically scoped variables. PARAMETRIZE doesn't change any of that. 03:06:11 If you want EXTERNAL to have access to the current value of the parameter you created by evaluating (MAKE-PARAMETER 23), you'll have to pass the parameter to EXTERNAL somehow, or evaluate its expression, (LAMBDA () (DISPLAY VAL)), in the scope of the variable VAL. 03:06:45 Riastradh: bummer. if I have to pass val to external, it is quite useless for me then. 03:06:59 One easy way to go about this is to write 03:07:02 (define val (make-parameter 23)) 03:07:11 at the top level, by the definition of EXTERNAL. 03:07:22 oh, I see. Good idea, will do. 03:16:58 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:19:19 Riastradh: thanks, works perfectly now. 03:21:11 lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-28-202.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 03:22:22 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-118.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:22:34 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-118.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 03:23:29 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-nlwoeehgqwospmkb] has joined #scheme 03:27:28 -!- mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:31:27 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-27-34-218.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:33:25 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:36:15 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 03:38:23 offby1` [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 03:40:47 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:51:05 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:51:08 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:52:41 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.150.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:52:43 timj_ [~timj@e176194102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:54:59 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #scheme 03:56:05 -!- timj [~timj@e176197228.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:05:13 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:05:32 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:50 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 04:06:30 Maxel [~Maxel@99.149.174.30] has joined #scheme 04:07:17 -!- Maxel [~Maxel@99.149.174.30] has left #scheme 04:07:32 banisterfiend [~horse@115.189.235.100] has joined #scheme 04:12:08 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-118.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:14:29 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@115.189.235.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:15:27 Hm, what can I say that makes me look interested in type theory and lambda calculus without exaggerating my (admittedly limited) knowledge? 04:15:33 *franki^* hates selling himself 04:16:42 Maybe start with `I'll have whatever you're having.' 04:18:24 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:18:40 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 04:18:45 strung_ [~strung@174-20-55-26.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 04:19:50 -!- strung_ [~strung@174-20-55-26.mpls.qwest.net] has left #scheme 04:20:14 Heh 04:24:46 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 04:31:38 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 04:31:54 "Come here often?" 04:34:56 offby1: i said that to my gf after a marathon oral session wheere she came 4 times in a row 04:35:03 sticky little girl. 04:35:16 O_o 04:36:25 ...is that a more elaborate way of saying "that's what she said"? 04:37:05 -!- bweaver [~user@c-67-161-229-130.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:37:10 i guesss so 04:37:11 *offby1* backs away slowly 04:40:18 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:44:29 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:44:59 Does banisterfiend contribute anything relevant to Scheme? 04:47:29 quite the opposite, to the best of my memory 04:47:40 necroforest [~jarred@pool-108-18-226-169.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:50:25 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:11 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:30 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 05:03:21 are there any scheme implementations particulary friendly to multicore? (good support for native threads, immutable structs/records) 05:04:20 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@b01-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:04:53 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:06:03 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 05:06:10 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 05:06:39 In the name of "opposite contributions".... 05:06:44 rudybot: (define a (call/cc (lambda (cc) (delay (call/cc cc))))) 05:06:44 cky: Done. 05:06:57 rudybot: (force a) 05:06:58 -!- rudybot [~luser@2001:470:1:41:a800:ff:fe3e:cde7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:07:03 O_o 05:07:11 Did I really just crash rudybot? 05:07:52 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:12:08 Apparently doing stuff with the resulting object in Guile results in extreme weirdness too. 05:15:58 nilg [~user@85.239.138.109] has joined #scheme 05:18:35 mmc [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 05:20:10 cky: executes in finite time on my machine 05:20:16 Racket 5.0.2 05:20:44 danking: I was gonna do more gnarly things with that object, if the bot didn't crash. :-P 05:21:23 haha 05:21:42 I thought rudybot evaluated expressions in Racket. 05:23:23 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 05:25:46 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:43:26 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:47:45 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 05:50:52 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 05:59:28 banisterfiend` [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 06:01:20 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:02:48 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:12:21 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-20-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 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[~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:51:13 ravic [~ravi@118-93-176-141.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 07:55:45 -!- jlongster [~user@c-98-242-90-116.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:18 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 08:02:54 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-fwqgzlkroyjjozif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:04:22 jlongster [~user@c-98-242-90-116.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:07:00 -!- jlongster [~user@c-98-242-90-116.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:07:53 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:10:12 do s-expressions become easier to read? I find them quite confusing to parse, especially when they are split out into multiple lines 08:11:12 lewis1711: solution: become a better programmer 08:11:14 easier to read than what? 08:11:22 hehe 08:11:27 lewis1711: moved on from ruby already? :P 08:11:51 banisterfiend`: do you troll other channels too or only #scheme? 08:11:59 lewis1711: Do you follow the Lisp style guide? http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt 08:12:15 somnium: a couple of othes 08:12:17 others* 08:12:27 lewis1711: If you follow it to the full, you will find things much easier to read. 08:12:56 somnium: "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" 08:13:01 lewis1711, yes, they become easier to read with practice, just like just about any notation. Don't count parentheses; follow the indentation. 08:17:13 cky: have you? 08:18:08 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:20:45 jlongster [~user@c-98-242-90-116.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:23:32 -!- banisterfiend` [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:25:07 Riastradh: almost all text-editors these days can highlight parens, so that's never bothered me. 08:25:14 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 08:25:21 fradgers- [~fradgers-@2.121.50.126] has joined #scheme 08:25:34 I nest functions in most languages that allow it anyway.. 08:25:39 cky: checking it out now 08:29:25 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:30:38 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 08:30:41 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 08:34:30 huh, that guide assumes I'll use emacs and that "hand indentation" is evil. I use emacs for somethings, but it's auto indentation irritates me beyond belief. 08:35:37 -!- nasloc__ [tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:35:41 I do like the ? and ! notation. 08:36:03 timchen1` [tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #scheme 08:36:30 -!- jlongster [~user@c-98-242-90-116.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:37:00 banisterfiend [~horse@122.56.210.93] has joined #scheme 08:38:02 -!- nilg [~user@85.239.138.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:38:17 banisterfiend: I might ask you the same question:P 08:38:55 lewis1711: im not really learning scheme 08:39:14 lewis1711: i just steal features occasionally and bring them bback to ruby, like i was working on a let the other day 08:39:52 let's you do this shit in ruby: let { |x=10, y=(x*2)| x, y } #=> [10, 20] 08:41:08 lewis1711, I don't see the word `evil' in the document, but indenting Scheme programs by hand is almost always a waste of time, because the only correct way to indent them is the way that Emacs indents them. There are exceptions, of course. 08:42:06 What do you mean by auto indentation? In GNU Emacs, there is a convention that RET shall insert a line break and do nothing more. If you want Emacs to indent something for you, you usually must request it by hitting TAB or similar. 08:43:05 in many language modes if you hit return after a line, it will indent where it thinks it should go, instead of following the indentation of the line above it. one of the major reason I don't use emacs tbh, because apart from that it's a fantastic editor 08:43:30 most languages have a correct indentation guide, but i still prefer doing it myself 08:43:44 lewis1711: so youve given up on ruby? 08:43:52 lewis1711: that's ususally pretty easy to customize 08:44:21 yeah, that's up to the author of the major mode. 08:44:29 banisterfiend: I am not programming in it right now. I wouldn't say given up on it however. It's a great langauge, one of the best I have come across, and will definitely use it again 08:44:31 Yeah that's usually very easy to fix, if the mode doesn't have a customization variable to do it, you can just rebind the return key 08:44:31 RET doesn't do indent here. C-j does. 08:45:26 I customised the hell out of my emacs, so I can't remember any of the original keybindings. and i am sure i rebinded my ret key. but that's another machine. 08:45:37 lewis1711, can you be more specific about your objection? It wasn't clear to me what Emacs was doing when you typed RET, and what you wanted it to do; neither action you described matches my expectation of what GNU Emacs does by default when one hits RET. 08:45:42 Any mode in which RET does anything more than insert a newline character violates a pretty consistent convention of GNU Emacs. 08:47:10 there are two commands I tried: newline, and newline-and-indent (or similar). new line places the cursor at the left most position. newline-and-indent placed the cursor where the language mode thought it should go. my preferred behaviour is for the cursor to be placed at the same position as the first non-whitespace char in the line above it 08:48:00 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 08:48:47 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@122.56.210.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:49:02 If you really want that, you can do this: (defun newline-to-position () (interactive) (let ((n (- (point) (point-at-bol)))) (newline) (insert (make-string n ?\ )))) (global-set-key (kbd "RET") 'newline-to-position) 08:49:19 It is not clear to me why one would want that, though. 08:50:00 (Perhaps (indent-to n) would be better than (insert (make-string n ?\ )), if there is a nonzero chance that you may want the indentation to use tabs rather than spaces.) 08:50:07 Riastradh: it's not clear to me why one would want the many default settings in emacs. thankfully it's very customisable. 08:50:37 nevertheless, thanks for that code, I will try that out when i get my machine working again:) 08:55:20 lewis1711: The only reasonable (uh) use case I can think of for making the next line flush with the current line is if you want to fight the mode's indentation rules. 08:55:30 As Riastradh said, in the case of Scheme, don't fight the rules. :-) 08:56:03 yes, I do not like indentation rules in modes. 08:58:24 lewis1711: you could always edit your program in fundamental mode 08:58:45 well make a note of that 08:58:53 though that would remove syntax highlighting, no? 08:59:22 am using gedit right now (yeah you heard me, I like it:P) 09:00:00 if you find gedit to be a satisfactory editor then more power to you 09:00:23 lewis1711: Does gedit support proper Lisp indentation (as specified in Riastradh's style guide), without you having to manually format it? 09:01:27 no. I am quite happy manually formatting. I do it with every other language. 09:01:54 lewis1711: The problem with manually formatting files is that it's too easy to introduce one's own idiosyncrasies in the formatting, whereas in the case of Lisp programming, the fewer formatting idiosyncrasies, the better. (Just like Python.) 09:02:45 I don't follow. scheme has no significant whitespace, so I am not seeing the comparison with python 09:03:16 lewis1711: Although the reader doesn't care about whitespace, other programmers do, and there's pretty much the one true style. 09:03:48 as defined by who? 09:03:51 lewis1711: You were talking about Lisp code being hard to read. If everybody used the one true style correctly, it'd be easy to read, because everything would be consistent. 09:04:05 lewis1711: The Lisp Emacs mode. :-P 09:04:24 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 09:04:48 lewis1711: I'm a vi user, but, I actually still feed files into Emacs for proper formatting afterwards. :-P 09:05:04 who says it's the one true style though, seriously? 09:05:07 there was this guy ... who recently tried to challenge the true style 09:05:16 http://gregslepak.posterous.com/on-lisps-readability 09:06:54 lewis1711: there are some poo-bums who format lisp parentheses like they were C-style { } braces 09:06:57 well, I guess history is filled with challengers 09:07:21 lol that's what that guy is doing 09:07:24 what a poo bum 09:07:26 somnium: That is such heresy. :-P 09:07:29 that guys second example is a lot more readable:/ 09:07:58 lewis1711: If you learn to read Lisp code like you read Python, you wouldn't think so. 09:08:27 No sane Python programmer would ask to have braces. :-) 09:08:34 in any case he didn't manage to inspire the sort of mass-awakening he seemed to be after 09:08:41 thank heavens 09:08:42 python is a horrible stunted language, let's not even talk about python 09:08:55 somnium: Indeed. 09:11:02 I don't think it does anything for the lisp community to demand people indent their code the way an archaic editor based on keyboard maps on machines that no longer exists maintained by a near-autistic man with no hygiene or social skills 09:11:12 does 09:11:28 hahah 09:11:40 but lisp programmers aspire to be that man, 9/10 lisp programmers have unkempt beards 09:11:55 and only lose their virginity at around 58 09:11:56 lewis1711: Wow, way to launch an ad hominem argument. 09:12:18 lewis1711: Whether RMS wrote it or not is totally irrelevant to the validity of the style. 09:12:39 banisterfiend: O_o 09:12:39 yes, but it smacks to me of creepy cultism 09:13:02 anyway, let me press my tab key in peace! ;) 09:13:09 it smacks to you upside the head, bithc 09:13:17 Hah. 09:14:21 lewis1711: As long as you're coding only for yourself, you can format it whatever way suits you. I think most Lisp programmers would reformat the code to the standard style before they'd touch it with a 10 ft pole, though. :-) 09:15:03 fair enough. i usually reformat C-like code to my own preferred style (braces on new lines) 09:15:19 *pukes* 09:15:50 *cky* prefers K&R style for C code. 09:15:52 whenever I write anything in java/javascript/c++ I feel like I'm battling an unruly swarm of curly-braces 09:16:18 somnium: Quite. 09:18:24 Wow. Dead bot is dead, still. 09:18:33 *cky* feels quite bad about that. 09:19:43 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:20:31 ah, apparently I'm a fan of 'the one true brace style' 09:20:52 are 4-space tabs acceptable to your majesties?:P 09:21:17 bearable but 2-space tabs are preferred 09:21:42 4-space tabs makes it harder to use multiple buffers 09:21:44 I find 2 space way too hard to read in any language 09:22:25 C-like convention is usually 4, but Lua or maybe Ruby (banisterfiend ?) often use 2 09:24:38 I use 4 spaces for C-style code, but, note, spaces not tabs. :-P 09:24:50 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:25:05 somnium: How's 1TBS different from K&R again? *googles* 09:25:25 I hope you don't use K&R naming convetions... 09:25:30 *lewis1711* shudders at &ptr 09:26:00 the wikipedia entry on indent_style is much more thorough than I expected 09:26:55 somnium: Indeed. 09:27:06 lewis1711: What do you prefer, p? 09:27:14 pointer 09:27:18 O_o 09:27:27 No serious C programmer writes "pointer" in full. 09:27:29 p is better than ptr though 09:27:41 only if it's a throw away pointer, however 09:27:58 K&R seem to have invented textspeak:P 09:28:12 u hv 2 declr ur ptrs! 09:28:30 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 09:29:16 *rolls eyes* 09:29:28 Pointers are so common in C that it's silly to write out "pointer". 09:30:02 May I remind you that abbreviated names in the C library are common too. malloc instead of allocate_memory, for example. 09:30:13 you think that's a good thing!? 09:30:13 strtoul instead of string_to_unsigned_long. 09:30:21 it's a holdover from tiny terminals 09:30:23 ugh 09:30:35 notice how modern languages no longer do that 09:30:43 (or at least not to as great an extent) 09:31:08 Eh, modern is in the eye of the beholder. *huggles rplaca tightly* 09:31:52 it hinders readability... I mean if it's as common as int or const I don't mind, but something like strcmpr is just...ugh 09:31:58 and don't get my started on unix program names 09:32:01 *me 09:32:09 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 09:32:24 They're just fine. But if you're not a Unix user, perhaps they're hard for you to understand. 09:32:42 I do prefer to type du instead of disk-usage. 09:33:28 I am a unix user 09:33:31 I'm the kind of person who prefers to write call/cc instead of call-with-current-continuation, though. :-P 09:34:17 cky: do you write things like (define (strtoul &sptr) ...) ? 09:34:45 somnium: Of course not. I use the established conventions of the language, and in this case, string->number. 09:35:14 can you imagine if gosling had written C instead of java like? it wouldn't be "&p", it would be "standard.system.memory.addresses.get_address_of(p)" 09:35:24 *though 09:35:49 That's a little too extreme. 09:36:42 Also, the use of ptr to refer to a pointer is enshrined in the C++ standard library: auto_ptr, ptr_fun, shared_ptr, etc. 09:37:36 the C++ standard library is so terrible that being enshrined in it is reason enough to avoid it:P 09:37:37 So, using ptr in current code is definitely in line with the "established conventions of the language". 09:38:23 chylli [~lchangyin@119.181.61.120] has joined #scheme 09:38:30 Anyway, I'm going to bed. Stayed up an hour too long already. 09:39:27 lewis1711: did u ever finish your ruby c ext 09:40:26 How to partition a list by element index(odd/even)? Any simple solution? e.g., (partition FOO? '(a b c d)) => (a c) (b d) 09:40:38 banisterfiend: no. noone could explain the weird random colour shit that was going on. since it used C not many rubyists were willing/able to help, and since it dealt with the ruby API not many C-programmers were willing/able, and it was beyond my abilities. 09:40:51 xwl_: a reduce function 09:42:15 ...this is why Ruby needs a good FFI, amirite? 09:42:40 xwl_: What's a use case for partitioning by _index_ rather than by value? 09:42:59 xwl_: Because, if you're partitioning by value, SRFI 1 comes with a partition function that does the job. 09:43:34 cky: i'd like to group every two items in a list, in sequence. 09:44:05 cky: it has an FFI, but FFI's usually have a big overhead. this was for doing rendering stuff in a C lib, was i was using Rubys API. i was also teaching myself C at the same time, so the deficiency is probably in me and not ruby. that having been said, even with my limited C knowledge, I found writing extensions for lua trivial in comparison 09:44:46 lewis1711: I consider any inter-language stuf to have big overhead, so I never let that discourage me from using an FFI. 09:44:51 *stuff 09:45:21 I did some tests for ruby, the overhead never even got to 1.5 times the length of time to execute, compared to native C 09:46:14 it's not like the lisp world where everything is usually written in lisp, loads of python, ruby etc stuff is written in c 09:46:50 *pukes* In that regard, I'm glad my day job uses JRuby...almost all the "native" stuff is written in Java. 09:47:16 We have odd spots where we do have to call C code, and there, I use JNA (Java's FFI, yes). 09:47:20 ah. yeah jruby has a much nicer java interface than ruby does C, from what I hear. 09:47:28 Yes, it's awesomesauce. 09:47:44 though Luas is the best. 09:47:58 What, for Java integration? 09:48:02 Kahlua 09:48:02 no, C 09:48:08 Hehehe. 09:48:19 srsly 09:48:24 hooray, my first wtf scheme function, and i am still in chapter 1 of SICP 09:48:47 *cky* actually never got around to reading SICP (nor any textbook of that calibre). 09:49:46 -!- chylli [~lchangyin@119.181.61.120] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:50:00 All my Scheme knowledge is self-taught, but I chose the hard-core way: I made myself read through all the macros and denotational semantics in R5RS. :-P 09:50:15 nilg [~user@85.239.138.109] has joined #scheme 09:50:34 chylli [~lchangyin@119.181.61.120] has joined #scheme 09:51:06 I also read through The Little Schemer and The Seasoned Schemer, though some parts of it still make my head spin. 09:51:40 -!- chylli [~lchangyin@119.181.61.120] has quit [Client Quit] 09:52:05 ha, madness 09:52:06 chylli [~lchangyin@119.181.61.120] has joined #scheme 09:52:22 Hehehe. 09:52:34 I probably should check what RxRS the scheme i am using implements 09:53:46 Well, let's see: Racket, Chez, Ikarus, Ypsilon use R6RS. Most other implementations use R5RS (some are adding R6RS support, but many are adamant about sticking with R5RS). 09:54:29 Currently my favourite implementation is Chicken, which is one of the "adamant about R5RS" implementations. :-D 09:54:29 can't find info on mit-scheme 09:54:38 well i probably can 09:54:47 but not without more googling than i feel like 09:55:21 http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/ 09:55:27 They have no plans to support R6RS. 09:56:07 Oh, I forgot, Scheme48 is also a big R6RS backer. How could I forget? :-P 09:56:35 the rnrs and associated schisms are really unique to the scheme community, kind of charming in an odd way 09:56:51 the cond function is interesting 09:57:33 somnium: That's because Scheme has no "benevolent dictator", like many other language communities have. 09:57:53 somnium: Like, there are lots of Python 3 haters, but, at least Guido kind of props it up. 09:58:13 masm [~masm@bl19-150-206.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 09:58:16 "benevolent committee" 09:58:41 somnium: O_o That just sounds bad, in the same way that "design by committee" does. 09:59:08 (Not saying that it's actually bad; just talking about how it rolls off the tongue.) 09:59:29 yeah the multiple implementations thing is a bit weird 09:59:41 (from a non-lispers perspective) 09:59:42 lewis1711: cond is cond; what's particularly interesting? Unless you mean the =>, then yes, that's fun. 09:59:46 and the srfis 10:00:03 cky: new to me 10:00:44 lewis1711: *backs away slowly* (to borrow offby1's line) 10:01:05 cond is, like, Lisp 101. :-) 10:01:08 yeah 10:01:16 secret: I have never used lisp before 10:01:34 ...that would be why you struggle with Lisp formatting, amirite? 10:01:40 except for copy-pasta'ing/tweaking stuff for the emacs config 10:02:01 I am not struggling. I am indenting! 10:02:14 :-P 10:02:35 Also, like, don't let people catch you say "cond function"; those two words are an oxymoron. :-) 10:02:45 not in haskell 10:02:54 if cond is not a function, what is it? 10:02:56 somnium: True, but that's because Haskell is lazy. 10:03:06 lewis1711: It's a macro. 10:03:14 mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 10:03:21 *lewis1711* eyes glaze over 10:03:24 I see 10:03:39 I wonder if threading/concurrency is the most widely diverging aspect of most implementations 10:03:41 lewis1711: It's important to know whether something is a function or a macro or a special form, because their evaluation rules differ. 10:04:21 lewis1711: Scheme doesn't (normally) do lazy evaluation, so, when calling a function, all arguments are fully evaluated before they are passed in. 10:04:27 lewis1711: well i was always willing to help (with your ruby/c stuff) i guess i just wasnt online when you were looking for help 10:04:38 lewis1711: When dealing with macros and special forms, though, this is not necessarily the case. 10:05:06 hmm. I'll deal with it later 10:05:54 banisterfiend: yeah, probably. I got tired of asking the same question in the same channels everyday though. and i also figured if I needed to rely on iRC that much, I probably needed more C knowledge 10:05:58 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:06:15 and I can only handle C in small doses. like Chemo 10:06:58 With an expression like (if (zero? d) #f (/ n d)), the "if" is a special form, not a function; if it were a function, then the (/ n d) is always evaluated, even if d is zero. 10:07:20 ah 10:07:23 I follow 10:07:36 :-) 10:07:41 but if is a "special form", while cond is a macro? 10:07:52 also...you have if as well? ok hmm 10:08:07 Right, because cond expands to an expression that ultimately uses if. 10:08:18 sorta like switch 10:08:19 So, if is the base operation. 10:08:25 Yep. 10:09:18 lewis1711: are you watching the SICP videos on youtube? 10:09:24 no, reading the book 10:09:35 cky: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/298905/ this should give you horrible nightmares:) 10:09:40 the vids are pretty awesome 10:09:41 (the paste site in the topic did not work for me) 10:10:29 lewis1711: The indentation is slightly off, but, the function looks correct (even if not the way I'd write it). :-) 10:10:51 Estás aí? 10:11:05 Wrong window. 10:11:06 so I guess I am following the one true style, minus the 2 space thing 10:12:11 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117237 10:12:23 That's how I understand it's formatted. 10:12:54 hmm, that's weird to me 10:12:56 maybe the r7rs will adopt Qi's 'almost no parens' let/cond style 10:13:04 (Things like if, cond, case, etc. have special formatting for their clauses.) 10:13:22 also I prefer the more verbose style. it looks more similar to how it's written in mathematics 10:13:37 Sure, whatever floats your boat. 10:13:40 if nothing else it might be a useful way to distract attention from other, non-superficial proposals 10:13:50 Anyway. Must sleep. :-P 10:13:54 *cky* procrastinates way too much. 10:13:58 haha 10:14:01 have a good one 10:14:03 :-) 10:14:05 cheers 10:15:14 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 10:18:37 -!- TheRealPygo is now known as pygospa 10:20:12 cky : hm, what's the difference between macros and special forms ? 10:20:55 (not counting the difference analogous to primitive procedures in an implementation vs. defined procedures) 10:35:28 You can make macros yourself, while special forms are handed down by the implementation. However, you can't tell the difference in practice. 10:46:19 ski: special forms are an explicit exception from the evaluation rules. 10:47:07 ski: macros have been added later to give the language user the same power 10:48:23 yeah 10:48:52 tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has joined #scheme 10:48:53 i'm just wondering if there is any point in distinguishing (apart from talking internal implementation) 10:49:44 If you aren't an implementor of the language there isn't 10:50:11 but under the hood both are usually done differently 10:50:26 the if form for example 10:53:25 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-28-202.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 10:53:25 You can think of them as macros that expand to themselves if that makes you happy i guess 10:58:02 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 11:05:21 Implementations are free to implement special forms as macros expanding to even specialier forms, too 11:06:29 HG` [~HG@xdsleh213.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 11:09:50 Yes, sure, but that doesn't make any sense, if a certain form can be described as a macro and yet is defined as a special form, it's usually for performance reasons, so implementing that as macro undermines the whole point of that thing being a special form 11:16:47 -!- ski [~slj@c-2911e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:19:47 ski [~slj@c-2911e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 11:20:20 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:26:43 mmc1 [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 11:28:17 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 11:31:17 isn't at the whim of the implementor? let can expand to lambda and be reduced later by the compiler/interpreter with no impact on performance, but the implementor might prefer to handle it specially. the semantics are the same in either case 11:37:16 it is hard to do for some cases: if is one that comes to my mind. How would you implement the correct behaviour with standard eval rules or a macro? 11:40:26 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:42:27 the very basics (if, lambda, apply/call) have to be special-forms I think 11:44:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-146-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 11:47:29 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 11:48:13 -!- mmc1 [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:01:30 Oh, I dunno, if might be implemented in terms of some more featureful core special form with three branches (true, false, and 'undefined' values?), with normal if duplicating the false case into the undefined case? 12:02:19 I'm not sure if the truthity of undefined values is defined anywhere, but it'd be a bit oxymoronic if it was, so we can probably pick either option ;-) 12:03:53 Welcome to the blurry twilight zone between the language and the implementation. Feel free to join any of the flame wars over there. 12:04:03 well, in ML you could use case to implement if, but you still have some kind of primitive branching operator 12:04:06 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 12:05:06 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:13:12 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 12:14:29 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:15:23 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:21:53 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 12:22:26 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:36:53 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:44:41 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 12:44:54 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:53:27 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 13:02:54 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:10:16 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 13:15:02 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:56 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 13:29:01 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:29:20 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 13:31:31 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:39:47 banisterfiend [~horse@115.189.230.223] has joined #scheme 13:43:59 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-99-193.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:44:49 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-67-83.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 13:50:20 mmc1 [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 13:53:36 femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 13:57:04 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.90.1] 14:01:36 -!- mmc1 [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:14:20 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 14:21:57 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 14:31:22 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsleh213.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:35:28 mmc1 [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 14:46:28 -!- mmc1 [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:49:25 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 14:50:37 mmc1 [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 14:54:40 -!- mmc1 [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:07:17 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:12:56 aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:15:49 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@212-14-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 15:26:39 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 15:26:54 Checkie [1575@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 15:29:36 bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 15:42:55 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 15:50:23 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:23 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:30 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-150-206.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:16:13 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:16:37 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:20:17 rudybot [~luser@2001:470:1:41:a800:ff:fe3e:cde7] has joined #scheme 16:20:40 rudybot: seen cky 16:20:40 offby1: cky was seen in/on #scheme eleven hours ago, saying "rudybot: (define a (call/cc (lambda (cc) (delay (call/cc cc)))))", and then cky was seen in/on #scheme eleven hours ago, saying "rudybot: (force a)" 16:20:48 cky: I theenk you keelt the bot 16:21:03 drdo [~user@194.210.228.105] has joined #scheme 16:25:56 -!- Intensity [IaQtVDRv7J@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:27:08 offby1: Yikes! 16:27:24 :-( 16:28:17 masm [~masm@2.80.150.206] has joined #scheme 16:28:52 *cky* is terribly sorry. 16:28:58 *offby1* calls the bot-o-cide cops 16:29:27 *cky* is guilty as charged. 16:29:33 at least the victim, as you can see, managed to scribble a note identifying the killer 16:30:04 :-) 16:42:21 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 16:42:53 Fabse [~mightyfid@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has joined #scheme 16:45:11 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:11 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:51 Intensity [z1STYHpvh3@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #scheme 16:58:09 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:59:31 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:05:38 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:06:55 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:07:29 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 17:10:50 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:46 -!- Fabse [~mightyfid@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has quit [] 17:15:00 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:23:24 Oejet [~oejet@212.45.122.120] has joined #scheme 17:26:38 jlongster [~user@c-98-242-90-116.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:31:31 -!- drdo [~user@194.210.228.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:36:21 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:06 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:17 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-146-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:57:57 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-124.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:01:15 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:02:25 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@212-14-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:04:50 mmc1 [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 18:07:17 adesin [~adesin@nat-portal-160-94-47-16.uofm.wireless.umn.edu] has joined #scheme 18:07:56 whats the function that returns the items of paramater 1 that don't match an item in paramater 2 18:08:07 (returns the difference of 2 lists) 18:08:57 adesin: lset-difference may be what you're thinking of. 18:09:15 rudybot: (require srfi/1) 18:09:17 cky: your racket sandbox is ready 18:09:17 cky: Done. 18:09:39 rudybot: (lset-difference = (iota 10) '(1 2 4 8)) 18:09:39 cky: ; Value: (0 3 5 6 7 9) 18:09:58 hmm, is it just subtract? 18:10:10 rudybot: (lset-difference eq? '(foo bar baz qux) '(foo bar)) 18:10:10 cky: ; Value: (baz qux) 18:10:25 adesin: See the examples above. 18:10:28 alexsura1i [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:10:28 -!- alexsura1i [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:17:33 -!- C-Keen [ckeen@pestilenz.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:17:38 C-Keen [ckeen@pestilenz.org] has joined #scheme 18:19:19 -!- adesin [~adesin@nat-portal-160-94-47-16.uofm.wireless.umn.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:31:34 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:41:50 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:46:24 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 18:49:06 drdo [~user@194.210.228.105] has joined #scheme 19:00:28 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:02:42 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.205] has joined #scheme 19:02:42 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.205] has quit [Changing host] 19:02:42 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 19:08:42 Zol [~Zolomon@li152-84.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 19:13:45 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:15 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@212-14-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 19:21:12 choas [~lars@p578F682C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:30:54 -!- chylli [~lchangyin@119.181.61.120] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:37:02 -!- ravic [~ravi@118-93-176-141.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:11 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:49:56 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:50:05 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:51:19 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-163-45.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:53:03 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-35-163-45.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:57:41 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:00:34 kar8nga [~kar8nga@k-173.vc-graz.ac.at] has joined #scheme 20:00:47 -!- nilg [~user@85.239.138.109] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:01:35 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@115.189.230.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:02:41 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:03:18 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 20:03:49 banisterfiend [~horse@115.189.230.223] has joined #scheme 20:05:10 copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.205] has joined #scheme 20:05:10 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@17.101.89.205] has quit [Changing host] 20:05:10 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 20:09:12 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 20:10:48 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 20:11:51 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@115.189.230.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:14:26 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 20:19:06 -!- drdo [~user@194.210.228.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:24:43 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@k-173.vc-graz.ac.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:42 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 20:35:58 -!- mmc1 [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:35:59 mmc2 [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:41:38 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:46:36 bem_ [~bem@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has joined #scheme 20:48:35 -!- bem [~bem@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:48:50 -!- bem_ is now known as chandler 20:54:48 see this? http://www.zdnet.com/blog/burnette/hungarian-lisp-developer-walks-away-with-google-ai-contest/2131 20:54:48 http://tinyurl.com/36hldnx 20:55:08 choice quote: "After seeing Gabor's performance, many participants commented that they would be taking a new look at the 50 year old language." 20:56:03 do languages suffer bitrot; or what's the source of this bizarre canard (that new languages, namely, are preferable)? 21:02:24 New languages typically attempt to solve problems that older languages haven't, such as offering easy concurrency/parallelism and simplifying debugging (such as through a strong typing system). 21:02:56 I charitably read that as saying that Lisp has been around for a long time but is often overlooked in favor of younger languages. 21:05:50 Unthahorsten [~Unthahors@del63-3-88-177-167-25.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 21:09:37 schmir [~schmir@p54A91887.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:09:43 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:15:02 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:25 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 21:19:04 -!- langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has left #scheme 21:21:39 alexshendi [~androirc@178.2.208.210] has joined #scheme 21:21:57 -!- Thorn [~Thorn@unaffiliated/thorn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:21 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:27:29 -!- alexshendi [~androirc@178.2.208.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:56 -!- Unthahorsten [~Unthahors@del63-3-88-177-167-25.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: goodbye] 21:30:47 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 21:31:29 -!- mmc2 [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:33:53 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 21:37:45 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.90.1] 21:38:02 ixor [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:46:11 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 21:46:39 kar8nga [~kar8nga@i-75.vc-graz.ac.at] has joined #scheme 21:53:10 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A91887.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:06:40 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:08:31 -!- mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:09:08 adesin [~adesin@nat-portal-160-94-47-16.uofm.wireless.umn.edu] has joined #scheme 22:09:33 -!- adesin [~adesin@nat-portal-160-94-47-16.uofm.wireless.umn.edu] has left #scheme 22:10:38 araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has joined #scheme 22:10:38 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has quit [Changing host] 22:10:38 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 22:12:32 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@i-75.vc-graz.ac.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:06 Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-27-34-218.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 22:23:10 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:26:06 -!- choas [~lars@p578F682C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:29:14 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 22:31:04 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 22:31:29 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:36:30 Obfuscate: the interesting thing about lisp being, possibly, that e.g. erlang-like concurrency or type-systems can be built without ad-hoc extensions to the language. 22:36:41 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:54 chandler: indeed; though the article's position seems to be something like: "oh, how quaint: a lightsaber!" 22:39:13 by the way: is there an idiom for creating singular values akin to, say, the eof-object? 22:39:30 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 22:40:28 i've seen code which uses improbable symbols to achieve something like singletons. 22:41:55 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:43:13 (gensym) 22:43:36 at least in racket generates non-internned symbols 22:45:06 anyone got a racket poweed blog I can check out? 22:46:44 klutometis: You can rely on (cons #f #f) to evaluate to an object which is not `eq?' to any other existing object. 22:46:47 jonrafkind: that occurred to me, actually; i'm somewhat surprised, but maybe it's the best solution. 22:47:45 i used to use (lambda () (void)), but gensym is cheaper 22:49:17 incubot [incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 22:49:24 incubot: (let ((a (cons #f #f)) (b (cons #f #f))) (list (eq? a a) (eq? a b))) 22:49:25 (#t #f) 22:49:36 chandler: fascinating 22:50:13 incubot: (let ((a (lambda () (void))) (b (lambda () (void)))) (list (eq? a a) (eq? a b))) 22:50:14 (#t #f) 22:50:53 jonrafkind: I don't understand your comment about (lambda () (void)). 22:50:58 rudybot: eval (eq? (void) (void)) 22:51:00 chandler: your racket sandbox is ready 22:51:00 chandler: ; Value: #t 22:51:13 rudybot: eval (eq? (lambda () (void)) (lambda () (void)) 22:51:13 jonrafkind: your sandbox is ready 22:51:13 jonrafkind: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 22:51:17 rudybot: eval (eq? (lambda () (void)) (lambda () (void))) 22:51:17 jonrafkind: ; Value: #f 22:51:21 I don't believe you can rely on those lambdas being non-eq?. 22:51:43 yea i dunno 22:51:44 -!- aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 22:52:01 chandler: why does (cons #f #f) work? 22:52:49 it's doing pointer-comparison, say, on two different pairs? 22:53:40 klutometis: Yep, and cons is guaranteed to return a fresh pair. 22:53:54 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 22:53:55 `cons' is guaranteed to return an object which is not `eq?' to any other object. 22:54:10 this, i take it, is not guaranteed to work: 22:54:12 incubot: (let ((a '(#f . #f)) (b '(#f . #f))) (list (eq? a a) (eq? a b))) 22:54:13 (#t #f) 22:54:26 jonrafkind: (eq? (lambda () (void)) (lambda () (void))) is unspecified. 22:55:15 klutometis: That could return either (#t #f) or (#t #t). 22:55:40 klutometis: (let* ((func (lambda () '(#f . #f))) (a (func)) (b (func))) (list (eq? a a) (eq? a b))) 22:55:58 rudybot: (let* ((func (lambda () '(#f . #f))) (a (func)) (b (func))) (list (eq? a a) (eq? a b))) 22:55:58 cky: ; Value: (#t #t) 22:56:20 damn, that's subtle. 22:56:20 As I expected. 22:56:24 (Sorry, have laggy Internet connection. :-() 22:56:34 rudybot: (+ 1 2) 22:56:34 chandler: ; Value: 3 22:56:37 Wow! 22:56:43 offby1: Many thanks! 22:56:50 chandler: You should thank eli. 22:57:01 eli: Many thanks! 22:58:32 klutometis: cky's example only demonstrates that (eq? x x) -> #t when x is a pair. 22:58:49 (Unfortunately, (eq? x x) is not always required to return #t.) 22:59:27 That's...interesting. 22:59:59 (eq? 0 0) -> #f or #t, per R5RS. 22:59:59 in Racket (and thus rudybot) it always returns #t, I believe 23:00:16 rudybot: (require srfi/60) (define bigbigbignum (ash 1 300)) (eq? bigbigbignum bigbigbignum) 23:00:16 cky: ; Value: #t 23:00:23 chandler: Yes, when using numeric constants. 23:00:48 chandler: But, when using a variable, is that still the case? 23:00:51 It's not about *constants*. (let ((x 0)) (eq? x x)) -> #f or #t per R5RS. 23:01:10 I see. 23:02:13 "Eq?'s behavior on numbers and characters is implementation-dependent, but it will always return either true or false, and will return true only when eqv? would also return true." 23:03:01 For more fun: 23:03:01 so there's some subset of undefined behaviour when eqv? would have returned #f? 23:03:15 rudybot: (list (eq? +nan.0 +nan.0) (= +nan.0 +nan.0)) 23:03:15 cky: ; Value: (#t #f) 23:03:23 klutometis: No. You've read that backwards. 23:03:26 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:03:37 chandler: you're right. 23:09:33 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 23:12:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-124.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:16 -!- Oejet [~oejet@212.45.122.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:14:30 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #scheme 23:15:08 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:17:05 my FOL's a little rusty, but i take it that the direction of the implication is eq? -> eqv?; such that if eqv?, eq? is true or false; but if (not eqv?), (not eq?). 23:17:57 drdo [~user@194.210.228.105] has joined #scheme 23:26:50 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #scheme 23:32:31 eq? => eqv? => equal?. The converse implications do not hold (counterexamples: (eq...? (cons 0 0) (cons 0 0)) per the standard, (eq...? (expt 2 128) (expt 2 128)) in every Scheme I know). Also, eq? => =, but = and eqv? are incomparable under the partial order of implication on equality predicates (counterexample: (eqv?/= 1. 1)). 23:33:15 just wait till we're all on 256-bit machines, Riastradh 23:33:29 Hmm, sorry, my last assertion was false. eqv? => = 23:33:50 (for all arguments on which = is defined) 23:34:38 samth, oh, there are other possibilities. For instance, I could imagine Schemes with a vector caching bignum powers of two. But I don't know of any such Schemes. 23:36:28 Ooh, I have one for you! 23:36:38 (eqv? +nan.0 +nan.0) ==> #t 23:36:45 ..but (= +nan.0 +nan.0) ==> #f 23:36:46 Actually, I suppose eq? => eqv? => equal? => = (the last for all arguments on which = is defined). 23:36:55 Ah. 23:36:57 You're right. 23:37:09 Assuming, of course, that = does not trap on NaNs. 23:37:52 (Frankly I think not trapping in that case is pretty silly.) 23:38:20 (As silly as (= 'a 'a) giving #F.) 23:38:42 but (number? +nan.0) ==> #t 23:39:00 That's silly too. 23:39:08 ..and ironic. 23:44:00 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-175-225.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:44:25 imran_sr [~imran@75-18-254-4.lightspeed.uncyca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:51:44 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@212-14-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:55:47 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 23:56:46 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@2.121.50.126] has left #scheme