00:00:47 *Caleb--* googles himself 00:01:36 Heh... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caleb 00:05:20 -!- zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:11:48 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:55 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@pool-173-76-209-217.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 00:30:30 -!- mmc1 [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:30:44 jeapostrophe [~jay@pool-173-76-209-217.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:55:58 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:58 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:35:19 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@pool-173-76-209-217.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 01:36:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-223.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:49:02 jeapostrophe [~jay@pool-173-76-209-217.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:54:31 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:05:31 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:14:29 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:16:18 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.32] has joined #scheme 02:19:50 -!- aking [~aking@67.23.13.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:19:55 aking [~aking@67.23.13.119] has joined #scheme 02:34:49 -!- aking [~aking@67.23.13.119] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:35:32 Azuvix [~james@174-27-34-218.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 02:37:39 aking [~aking@67.23.13.119] has joined #scheme 02:44:18 -!- aking [~aking@67.23.13.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:44:48 aking [~aking@67.23.13.119] has joined #scheme 02:48:30 franki^: Social engagements can be such a bore :/. 03:01:10 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:13:29 xwl [~user@117.79.235.212] has joined #scheme 03:17:03 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@61.99.46.4] has joined #scheme 03:22:52 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.32] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:32:46 -!- Azuvix [~james@174-27-34-218.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:41:39 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable060.239-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:52:43 timj_ [~timj@e176198121.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:53:03 danking: Bring a deck of cards. Get everyone to play 500. Instant interestingness boost. 03:56:04 -!- timj__ [~timj@e176196248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:00:34 -!- mejja [~chatzilla@c-5bb9e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 04:01:58 -!- snorble_ [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:05:03 snorble_ [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 04:11:01 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-40-104.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:38:46 caelan [~caelan@gnu/webmaster/caelan] has joined #scheme 04:41:37 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-141-122.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:45:26 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-153-22.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:49:11 -!- caelan [~caelan@gnu/webmaster/caelan] has left #scheme 05:07:31 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@pool-173-76-209-217.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 05:08:33 jeapostrophe [~jay@pool-173-76-209-217.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:11:15 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@pool-173-76-209-217.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:20:18 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aisa] 05:28:16 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-141-122.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 05:33:00 cky: Glancing at the wikipedia page makes me think this game might be too complicated to explain at many of the social gatherings I've recently attended. 05:33:38 danking: Okay, so, I come from New Zealand. 05:34:06 danking: Every New Zealander (and Australian) is expected to know how to play 500, just like every Chinese is expected to know how to play Mahjong. 05:34:29 (I'm of Chinese descent, and yes, I know how to play Mahjong.) 05:35:23 So, just like Mahjong is an idle activity in China, 500 is an idle activity in New Zealand and Australia. :-P 05:50:41 nilg [~user@85.239.138.109] has joined #scheme 05:58:02 danking: Tell me about it! I was going to say that I'm probably the least social person you'll ever meet, but in an IRC channel dedicated to, shall I say, a "minority" programming language, that might not be true. ;) 05:58:05 hi cky :) 05:58:09 But I'm not very sociable! 05:58:18 I am now back from said social event though 06:02:56 cky: I suppose in America Blackjack or Poker are safe bets, but I still don't see those games being more fun than say, programming. 06:03:19 Try Settlers of Catan ;) 06:03:23 HAH 06:03:24 Tried it 06:03:36 They were too drunk to understand it I think. 06:03:40 meh 06:03:50 Heh :\ 06:04:28 I think I'm a reasonably sociable person when the conversation topics are of interest to me, but I'm not that good at "shooting the shit." 06:04:55 I don't know what that means, but I can try guessing. :P 06:04:58 danking: Where do you live, out of curiosity? 06:05:19 danking: how 'bout them Patriots? 06:05:23 chemuduguntar: Heya! 06:05:29 cky: Currently, San Diego, California. In little more than a month I'll return to my beloved Boston though. 06:05:37 danking: Nice, nice. :-) 06:05:51 danking: Okay, well, I was trying to decide whether to mention the M word. Hmm. 06:06:19 offby1: Ugh. Perhaps if I even knew when sports seasons were I'd be better at shooting the shit. 06:06:35 cky: move? 06:06:45 danking: No, Mensa. 06:06:49 lol 06:07:56 I've never found myself having to small-talk at Mensa gatherings, but, I obviously can't speak about any gatherings other than ones I've been to, so. 06:09:51 the more interests you have, the easier it is to small-talk 06:10:27 That, too. 06:10:48 football and rugby are a lot more interesting and bearable when you can look at them from a lot of different perspectives 06:12:00 ...like, as a counterpoint to foosball? :-P 06:14:02 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@217.191.172.98] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:14:12 TheRealPygo [~pygospa@217.191.209.193] has joined #scheme 06:16:26 Adamant: I think I do have a decently wide array of interests. I think the issue is more my inablity to successfully find a connection with another person. 06:16:45 ah 06:16:45 I need to optimize my conversation algorithms. 06:16:51 no 06:17:02 hmm? 06:17:07 thinking of it in those terms is kinda partially the problem :) 06:17:54 danking: You seem to have no problems chatting on IRC. 06:18:13 cky: I share your confusion. 06:18:14 What Adamant said...you're probably overthinking it. 06:18:22 listen more than you speak 06:18:28 but do speak 06:19:15 and try to find people you genuinely like/care for to some degree 06:19:20 Well the issue often is that there is so much speaking going on about things which I know very little. Inserting myself into the conversation proves hard. I am much more at ease in a one-on-one interaction. 06:19:32 ah, group talk? 06:19:38 Aye 06:19:40 It's a pain. 06:19:43 yeah 06:19:54 Especially when the group gets hung up on one topic. 06:20:03 right 06:23:12 notsonerdysunny [~chatzilla@59.92.147.25] has joined #scheme 06:23:40 I wonder if there's Scheme Meetup. Then, the group can at least get hung up on one topic that interests you. :-P 06:24:35 DrDuck [~duck@66-168-225-64.static.mtgm.al.charter.com] has joined #scheme 06:24:44 cky: There is an FP group in San Diego but they meet once a month and I always manage to miss the meeting 06:25:35 I am very excited for the Boston-Lisp meetings when I finally return to beantown 06:28:46 Boston must be one of the best cities in the world for Lisp-related events :P 06:28:53 I'm so jealous. 06:29:09 Try finding anything in Mexico! Especially if your Spanish is bad. :| 06:29:16 lol 06:29:21 I need to see if there's a Lisp and/or Scheme community in Durham, NC (where I live). I know there's a shop in downtown Durham that does Clojure consulting, but. 06:29:34 Well, Mexico city probably has something, but here in San Luis... No chance. 06:29:56 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:30:00 franki^: What brings you to Mexico with poor Spanish skills? 06:30:11 danking: A very good question! 06:30:22 I wanted to get out of the rain ;) 06:30:24 lol Google Maps gives me Saint Louis if I search for San Luis 06:30:49 It's San Luis Potosí, a few hours north of Mexico City 06:31:03 It isn't that small, but it's incredibly boring, and safe ;) 06:32:07 cky: Best I could find: http://www.meetup.com/TriJVM/ 06:32:53 franki^: So I'm guessing you're orginally from London then. 06:32:58 I'll move back to the "civilised world" next year though. 06:33:07 danking: Well, Cardiff, not too far from London 06:33:16 Just over the bridge, so to speak 06:33:36 It rains a lot more there than in London 06:33:50 (defina (factorial numero) (si (< numero 2) 0 ...)) 06:34:02 :) 06:34:31 Riastradh: And the function always returns 0, amirite? ;-) 06:35:17 ...ah, 1, no 0. Es factorial, no Fibonacci. 06:35:31 :-) 06:36:07 Los mexicanos, como los americanos, no pueden hacer matematico! 06:37:00 I love looking at maps of London and seeing all these familiar names. I wonder if they're anthying like their American doppelgangers 06:37:27 They probably were a quarter millennium ago, danking. 06:38:53 I suppose so. A bit damper and warmer, but altogether similar. 06:39:00 I haven't travelled extensively in the States, but it seems pretty foreign to me :) 06:39:29 Plus, anyone who can rhyme "hot" with "thought" isn't speaking the same language as I am! :P 06:43:38 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-87-43.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 06:44:06 ...I'm not serious, by the way, I've got nothing against the differently accented. :) 06:45:11 franki^: Come to Boston, we've retained the non-rhoticity and the unplanned city design :P 06:45:26 That's more like it! o/ 06:45:38 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.20] 06:45:50 My sister studied in Boston for six months, I think 06:46:07 What about someone who can't rhyme `merry', `marry', and `Mary'? 06:46:46 Merry, marry and Mary should never rhyme, but "the Mary, marry, merry merger" is a pleasure to say 06:48:06 But, what can I say. Torque and talk are the same for me. :) 06:48:13 Or and awe too 06:48:13 Oh wow. I had never heard of that before, had to Wikipedia it 06:48:48 Language is so cool 06:49:00 Dearest creature in creation, study English pronunciation... 06:49:02 danking: Thanks for the TriJVM link. I just learnt from their discussions that there was a Clojure conference in Durham a month ago, and I didn't even know about it! :-/ 06:49:02 I've read a bit about this kind of stuff because I teach English to Mexicans, who all speak like they do in the movies and think that I'm really weird ;) 06:49:23 danking: And yes, the Clojure-consultancy-in-downtown-Durham was a platinum sponsor. :-) 06:50:18 Hm, maybe that sentence wasn't clear. The "they" from the movies are Americans. 06:50:26 (There is a couplet in that poem that does not work in Boston, although it works in most of the US and across the pond: it rhymes `grant' and `aunt'.) 06:50:32 Beer has clouded my grammar :P 06:50:48 Riastradh: Nice. 06:51:10 *franki^* rhymes grant with aunt, and aren't, can't, shan't too 06:51:20 franki^: Well, me too. 06:51:33 All said with "long a". 06:51:39 cky: Do you rhyme batted with battered though? 06:51:50 I think that's quite a Kiwi thing 06:51:53 Prebably so. 06:51:55 cky, `aren't' with `can't' and the rest? 06:52:05 Riastradh: Yes, all with long a too. 06:52:10 -!- notsonerdysunny [~chatzilla@59.92.147.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:52:18 ahnt, cahnt, shahnt, etc. 06:52:19 cky: :P Glad I could be of help 06:54:03 franki^: I could definitely rhyme batted with battered, they sound like homophones to me 06:54:04 danking: Incidentally, I do a lot of stuff in the JVM sphere, so to speak. My day job is in JRuby (and Java), and, for my personal Scheme stuff...let's just say I have plans to make a fork of SISC. 06:54:44 cky: I don't know much about Kiwi accents, except for Flight of the Conchords. Although I watched "Eagle vs Shark" recently, that was... interesting (if you know it) 06:54:46 cky: What're you gonna do with your fork? 06:54:50 Is SISC still alive? I haven't heard from Scott Miller or Matthias Radestock in years. 06:55:01 Riastradh: Neither have I. I think it's orphaned. :-( 06:55:04 danking: Really? That's unusual, for an American, but you said that you're Bostonian? 06:55:10 danking: I want to make it support the Da Vinci Machine. 06:55:14 franki^: North of the city, but essentially yes. 06:55:27 danking: i.e., use all the cool dynamic language support that the next version of Java will have. 06:55:47 danking: Cool, I'm glad to hear that you're doing your bit for regional diversity. :) 06:56:10 franki^: I <3 FOTC, but, I don't remember the show's episodes by name. 06:56:18 franki^: At any rate, I've only watched the first season. 06:56:31 (define (boston-accent word) (regexp-replace "r" word "")) 06:57:13 cky: Ah, sorry if I wasn;t clear, "Eagle vs Shark" is a film, unrelated to the FOTC, except that Jemaine is in it 06:57:17 danking: I didn't know that "obert" is a name in Boston! 06:57:39 franki^: Oh oh, I see. 06:57:44 cky: Perhaps the procedure needs some refinement :P 06:57:45 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:57:49 cky: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_vs_Shark 06:57:59 danking: :-P 06:58:30 cky: I've got a Mexican friend here who lived in NZ for a year, so she's a bit obsessed with Kiwi stuff and she lent me the DVD 06:58:37 franki^: Nice, nice. :-) 06:58:51 franki^: One of my best friends is a New Zealander who lived in Mexico for a few years. 06:59:19 cky: Interesting, maybe there's more cultural exchange than I would've predicted! 06:59:23 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 06:59:31 :-P 07:00:26 Anyway, I'm feeling so guilty about being this off-topic I might just go to bed. Then I can ask Scheme-related questions in the morning! 07:00:35 Have fun! I should sleep too. 07:01:18 'suppose I should get back to hackin' 07:01:23 eagle vs. shark was a lame rip off of napoleon dynamite 07:06:53 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 07:14:13 -!- xwl [~user@117.79.235.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:35:32 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:38:33 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 08:13:35 -!- nilg [~user@85.239.138.109] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16:00 kar8nga [~kar8nga@78.104.80.67] has joined #scheme 08:16:57 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 08:24:30 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:27:01 sajith [~sajith@59.164.229.2] has joined #scheme 08:48:23 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:50:26 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 09:12:24 femtoo 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has quit [Changing host] 12:48:31 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 12:56:20 Waldteufel [~benjamin@port-92-193-20-3.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #scheme 12:56:34 hi :) 12:57:52 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@m-77.vc-graz.ac.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:59:14 hi 13:00:21 tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has joined #scheme 13:02:21 nilg [~user@85.239.138.109] has joined #scheme 13:09:58 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 13:31:36 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.20] 13:32:04 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 13:32:11 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:32:48 araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has joined #scheme 13:32:48 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has quit [Changing host] 13:32:48 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 13:34:24 pavelludiq_ [~quassel@83.222.167.92] has joined #scheme 13:34:49 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@83.222.167.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:06:58 porton [~porton@77.125.126.79] has joined #scheme 14:07:37 I'm a Scheme beginner. Is it good to use (do ...) in Scheme programs instead of recursion? For me it seems that "do" is more clear 14:08:47 i would say that depends on what you are doing 14:09:32 Waldteufel: I add features to a Scheme modules which are a part of TeXmacs 14:10:30 Or maybe I am just not accustomed with functional programming and having more experience would switch to recursion? 14:10:33 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:11:15 porton: if you have the choice between some kind of sequential stuff and recursion you are usually coding a loop 14:11:36 ... In abstract mathematics I prefer to use explicit e.g. series rather than writing it inductively defined, because it is simpler to switch from series to induction than vice verse 14:11:54 Waldteufel: Do you suggest to code loops explicitly> 14:12:05 and for loops you would usually use some kind of higher-order function like (map ) or (filter) or (foldr) 14:12:58 i suggest to avoid both (do ) _and_ recursion ^^ 14:13:07 Waldteufel: The precise thing I am doing, is to enumerate over all elements of a list and replace its element with given name by a given value. If there are no element with given value, I want add it to the end of the list 14:13:42 ... (I mean the first encountered element with given name should be replaced) 14:14:34 ... I see nothing better than "do" for this work. (I'm a Scheme beginner however.) 14:15:33 hm :/ 14:15:43 i would use a different data structure 14:16:33 http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Hash-Tables.html 14:16:43 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-141-122.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:16:50 Waldteufel: This is a rare operation and so no reason to worry about its performance. Most often my list will be enumerated from the start to the end to form a GUI menu with items named after names of list elements 14:17:09 ... So I deem that my data structure choice (plain list) is good 14:17:17 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-198.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:17:21 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-198.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:17:49 porton: that is not a performance question ;) 14:18:04 Waldteufel: Also hash tables are not ordered, but I want to have the possibility to reorder my list (that for a future version of the program) 14:18:13 thats the more important thing 14:18:36 hm probably recursion would fit that best 14:18:50 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-198.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:18:55 Waldteufel: Why not "do"? For me it seems more natural 14:19:00 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-198.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:19:05 porton: why should that be more natural? 14:19:17 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:19:54 Waldteufel: If someone sees "do" he immediately understand that this is a loop. If someone sees recursion he need yet several seconds to understand that this is a loop 14:20:19 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-141-122.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:20:24 from where do you take the knowledge that _everybody_ is like that? ;) 14:20:39 in functional programming languages you dont have things like loops 14:20:54 you think of mathematical stuff like data sets and mappings between them 14:21:27 and as a list is a recursive data structure in scheme, you usually would process it in a recursive way 14:21:46 Waldteufel: I judge supposing that others are like myself. For me it is a little harder to understand recursion than an explicit loop. However this may be from my not enough experience with functional programming 14:22:55 Waldteufel: Data in imperative programming languages is also a mathematical stuff. I'd say that a variable in imperative language is a mathematical sequence of its values while a program executes 14:23:32 i disagree 14:23:51 Waldteufel: Do you disagree that a variable in imperative language is a mathematical sequence? 14:24:12 masm [~masm@bl19-153-22.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 14:24:26 yes. for the compiler, in y = a + 1; a = 5; z = a + 2; the first a and the second a are _different_ variables 14:25:08 Waldteufel: These are different items of the sequence "a" 14:25:10 of course you could construct the sequence of variable values indexed by execution time 14:26:11 Waldteufel: You almost understood me. Just index is more natural not by execution time but by discrete execution steps indexed by a natural number 14:26:19 yes of course 14:26:35 not by execution time in seconds but in clock cycles or something 14:26:54 back to your problem: 14:27:03 i think a functional solution would be 14:27:21 Returning to my initial question: Is there any reason to prefer recursion over "do"? (Oh, well I know one reason: That Scheme program would be easier to translate to Haskell :-) ) 14:27:27 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #scheme 14:27:31 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 14:27:46 if item is already in list: replace, else: append. 14:28:32 Waldteufel: You don't need to explain me how to do it with recursion (it seems I already understand this), but to WHY use recursion 14:28:40 porton: Yes. `do' is disfavored; I for one can't decipher a `do' form at a glance. 14:29:14 porton: when in rome, do as the romans do. thats the only reason ;) 14:29:19 There are other iterative constructs that are more expressive. The foof-loop library provides one such form; Racket has its own iteration construct that I'm quite fond of. 14:29:39 Otherwise, I tend to use a named let form when it's not too cumbersome. 14:29:52 minion: foof-loop? 14:29:52 foof-loop: Taylor R. Campbell's extensible looping macros, at , documented at 14:30:08 chandler: It seem we have opposing opinions. I've said that for me reading "do" would be easier than reading recursion, while you say "one can't decipher a `do' form at a glance" 14:30:26 I said that *I* can't decipher it. :-) 14:30:53 I rarely come across `do' forms in the wild, so I'm inclined to believe that my stylistic preference is fairly widely held. 14:31:37 porton: theres nothing to keep you from writing completely imperative programs in scheme. with lots of (set! ). and (do ) 14:31:42 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 14:32:43 `do' is not an imperative form. Any `do' form may easily be rewritten into a recursive program without the use of `set!'. 14:32:44 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-198.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:32:46 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-198.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:33:55 chandler: But above I said that often converting from recursion to imperative form is harder than vice verse 14:35:28 Harder in what sense? 14:36:00 -!- yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 14:36:26 chandler: It is similar to math example where is hard to convert from an inductive definition to an explicit formula (maybe with a series) 14:37:13 yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 14:37:15 -!- yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:37:41 in a kind of way you are saying that integrating is simpler than differentiating 14:37:52 I don't believe that analogy quite holds. Conversion from imperative style to recursive style in the general case requires a cumbersome transformation that destroys the direct style of the original program. 14:37:53 yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 14:38:12 If the recursion is not terminal, then to transform it you'll need a stack. On an other hand, an iteration is trivially transformed in a terminal recursion. 14:38:54 Waldteufel: Honestly, I haven't been able to make sense out of anything you've said so far. 14:39:15 xD 14:39:34 maybe i should just keep quiet 14:40:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.20] 14:40:33 pjb: Only the iterations that can be trivially transformed into recursion can be trivially transformed into recursion. In order to transform a general imperative program into a recursive program, you'll need to apply a CPS transformation. That's why I'm not sure I agree with porton's proposition that converting from recursion to an imperative form is more difficult than the reverse. 14:41:03 chandler: What is CPS? 14:41:13 Continuation-Passing Style 14:41:35 (There are other transformations you can apply too, but a CPS transformation is probably the easiest.) 14:41:37 chandler: And what that means? 14:42:22 The margin of this IRC buffer is too small to fully explain it. :-) 14:42:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation-passing_style 14:43:01 The related form SSA is often used to accomplish this transformation, but it's more difficult to understand than CPS. 14:43:34 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 14:46:05 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:54:27 -!- Waldteufel [~benjamin@port-92-193-20-3.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #scheme 14:56:09 chandler: using more sophisticated techniques (even automatically) can be defined as being more difficult. Having to use a stack or CPS is more difficult than if it was possible, a simple loop. 15:13:06 jeapostrophe [~jay@pool-173-76-209-217.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:14:38 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@pool-173-76-209-217.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:27:17 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 15:31:40 jeapostrophe [~jay@pool-173-76-209-217.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:36:03 kar8nga [~kar8nga@j-139.vc-graz.ac.at] has joined #scheme 15:40:44 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-153-22.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:43:00 -!- DrDuck [~duck@66-168-225-64.static.mtgm.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:46:35 Is it possible to pass variables by reference? 15:46:43 porton: Not in Scheme. 15:47:24 But, if you're trying to do side-effect-free programs, that's completely irrelevant. 15:47:46 cky: I don't try to do side-effect-free programs. Why I would? 15:48:18 Because that's the style many Scheme programmers aim to use, to the maximum degree practicable. 15:48:54 Programs are easier to reason about if you have a few isolated spots with side effects, than if you have side effects littered everywhere. 15:48:59 It's a form of decoupling. 15:51:03 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 15:51:17 porton: You do realise that even a "do" loop in Scheme is side-effect-free (if you don't explicitly put in side-effecting code, of course), right? 15:53:11 If I want to replace one element in list, this is most naturally done with a side effect (may with a "hidden" side effect on a local variable) 15:53:26 porton: Not in Scheme, it's not. 15:54:34 porton: Instead of set-car!ing the element, you could just start from that place, and cons in the new value, then prepend the elements preceding it. 15:54:48 cky: Other programmers of the project for which I use Scheme use "append!" and "set!". There would be a void attempt to make better style than other programmer of the same project TeXmacs 15:55:05 append! is not required to have side effects. 15:55:09 append! is fine when you know nobody else holds a reference to your list 15:55:10 It's simply allowed to. 15:55:14 It's simply an optimization 15:55:15 What sjamaan said. 15:55:32 http://www.texmacs.org - want to volunteer in programming it? 15:55:44 *sjamaan* is happy with emacs thanks very much 15:55:56 (It is in C++ and Scheme) 15:56:03 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-137.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:56:19 *cky* prefers to work with programs that are 100% Scheme, but that's just me. 15:56:20 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-223.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:57:05 porton: It's okay to use set! in limited places, but, you generally don't want to use it "as a habit". 15:57:12 I learned some Scheme specifically to participate in development of TeXmacs (http://www.texmacs.org) 15:57:40 I got the URL the first time you pasted it (and in any case, I know of the project). 15:57:46 +1 15:58:21 porton: It's good you're enthusiastic about the project 15:58:29 But don't keep posting the URL :) 15:58:45 :-) 16:00:09 masm [~masm@bl19-153-22.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 16:13:42 aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:18:03 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-147-105.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:24:47 sjamaan: implement progressive punishment system on the channel :) 16:26:17 :) 16:27:44 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@pool-173-76-209-217.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 16:39:59 Caleb-- [~caleb@bzq-79-182-51-207.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 16:46:43 DrDuck [~duck@66-168-225-64.static.mtgm.al.charter.com] has joined #scheme 16:50:42 kghost [~kghost@113.109.188.74] has joined #scheme 16:53:06 -!- porton [~porton@77.125.126.79] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:05:21 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 17:06:21 yamanu [~yamanu@89.142.205.211] has joined #scheme 17:06:51 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@j-139.vc-graz.ac.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:45 hello people 17:07:56 i'm trying to execute (thread-sleep! (/ 1 16)) 17:08:14 but it says Error: (inexact->exact) inexact number cannot be represented as an exact number: 62.5 17:09:18 anybody willing to contribute a quick fix? thank you 17:09:34 What implementation is this for? 17:09:38 chicken 17:11:43 Hm. The documentation says it accepts a real number, so this looks like a bug in Chicken. 17:12:15 Does (thread-sleep! (seconds->time (+ (/ 1 16) (time->seconds (current-time))))) work? 17:13:23 no, same thing 17:15:19 thank you, i thought it's some kind of newbie knot 17:15:32 No, I'm pretty sure it's just a bug. 17:16:52 yamanu: (define (thread-sleep-wrapper! n) (thread-sleep! (/ (truncate (exact->inexact (* n 100))) 100))) 17:17:01 But this shouldn't be necessary; I'd suggest reporting it as a bug. 17:19:23 chandler: thank you, this works 17:27:22 chandler: It looks like a known issue: http://web.archiveorange.com/archive/v/BiIJQhm4bptgy0012JNw 17:28:28 -!- zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:29:34 yamanu: OK, good. It looks like it's been fixed in chicken head, so you might want to check that out and give it a try (or just stick with the workaround for now). 17:38:25 -!- DrDuck [~duck@66-168-225-64.static.mtgm.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:38:39 -!- yamanu [~yamanu@89.142.205.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:40:43 alaricsp_ [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 17:46:06 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:47:47 jao [~user@75.Red-79-145-118.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:48:05 Oejet [~oejet@212.45.122.120] has joined #scheme 18:04:14 Drache [~DugabE@p4FE539AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:05:56 -!- Drache [~DugabE@p4FE539AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #scheme 18:06:43 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-40-104.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 18:15:58 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:32:22 -!- HG` 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timeout: 264 seconds] 19:23:29 -!- inimino [~inimino@boshi.inimino.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:23:29 -!- Zol [~Zolomon@li152-84.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:23:50 bremner [~bremner@yantan.tethera.net] has joined #scheme 19:23:54 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 19:24:38 inimino [~inimino@boshi.inimino.org] has joined #scheme 19:25:29 HG` [~HG@xdslev044.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 19:29:04 -!- yamanu [~yamanu@89.142.205.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:30:56 porton [~porton@77.125.126.79] has joined #scheme 19:32:37 -!- rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:32:53 rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #scheme 19:33:01 ASau`` [~user@95-28-62-161.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 19:33:45 -!- danking [~danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:33:45 vanity_ [~vanity@unaffiliated/vanity] has joined #scheme 19:34:17 alexsuraci [~alex@71.188.133.67] has joined #scheme 19:34:17 em_ [~em@user-0ccem9o.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 19:34:17 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:34:40 danking [~danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:35:44 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:35:44 is there any scheme implementation that's like lua?: small + simple implementation, decent C FFI ? 19:36:00 Leonidas_ [~Leonidas@coaxial.xivilization.net] has joined #scheme 19:36:08 -!- elly_ is now known as elly 19:36:08 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:36:08 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.71.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:36:08 Can a variable defined with (define var ...) return a different value every time it is accessed as global variables change (like a procedure) 19:36:09 adzuci_ [~ada2358@129.10.117.100] has joined #scheme 19:36:09 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:36:09 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:36:09 vanity_: I don't know if Chibi fits your bill. 19:36:09 -!- Leonidas_ [~Leonidas@coaxial.xivilization.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:36:09 Leonidas_ [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 19:36:09 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:09 -!- jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:09 Kovensky [~kovensky@72.14.179.164] has joined #scheme 19:36:10 -!- shardz [samuel@ilo.staticfree.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:10 -!- ASau` [~user@95-28-62-161.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:10 -!- yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:10 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smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 19:36:43 -!- shardz [samuel@ilo.staticfree.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:43 -!- chandra_ [crito@cohomology.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:49 chandra [crito@cohomology.org] has joined #scheme 19:36:49 -!- chandra [crito@cohomology.org] has quit [Changing host] 19:36:49 chandra [crito@unaffiliated/crito] has joined #scheme 19:36:55 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:56 jewel__ [~jewel@196-210-134-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:37:14 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 19:37:19 -!- Intensity [Na3QaYSfj0@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:20 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 342 seconds] 19:37:21 shardz [samuel@ilo.staticfree.info] has joined #scheme 19:37:23 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:37:23 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:37:24 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 19:37:25 yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 19:37:36 -!- em_ [~em@user-0ccem9o.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:37:36 vanity_: But you should give it a try, for sure. 19:37:43 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 19:37:47 -!- ski_ [~slj@c-2911e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:41 zbigniew [~zb@li177-156.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 19:38:54 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 19:39:21 cky: it looks good so far 19:39:48 on first glance, far more readable than either gambit or chicken 19:39:55 Good, good. :-) 19:40:03 are you the author of chibi scheme ? 19:40:08 No, foof is. 19:40:52 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 19:41:19 ski_ [~slj@c-2911e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:41:29 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 19:42:25 -!- emma is now known as em 19:45:17 -!- vanity_ is now known as vanity 19:49:16 -!- vanity [~vanity@unaffiliated/vanity] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:49:18 Intensity [UrRz31O8yP@panix5.panix.com] has joined #scheme 19:49:18 -!- Intensity [UrRz31O8yP@panix5.panix.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:49:18 Intensity [UrRz31O8yP@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #scheme 19:54:18 yamanu [~yamanu@89.142.205.211] has joined #scheme 20:01:58 mmc1 [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:05:55 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 20:06:30 AtnNn [~welcome@173.177.239.60] has joined #scheme 20:14:41 *Caleb--* tackles cky 20:14:43 ^_^ 20:14:56 -!- porton [~porton@77.125.126.79] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:15:43 *cky* dodges and watches Caleb-- fall over. :-P 20:18:48 schmir [~schmir@p54A9127A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:19:26 *offby1`* pours motor oil on the roadway 20:19:31 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 20:19:38 DrDuck [~duck@adsl-81-55-129.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 20:20:28 fradgers- [~fradgers-@2.121.50.126] has joined #scheme 20:21:39 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:35:19 -!- yamanu [~yamanu@89.142.205.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:55 -!- ski_ is now known as ski 20:40:30 -!- jewel__ [~jewel@196-210-134-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:41:32 pothos_ [~pothos@111-240-219-12.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 20:42:34 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-219-180.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:43:15 -!- pothos_ is now known as pothos 20:45:19 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A9127A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:48:10 I want to place an http request and retain the cookie that is produced by the server. Is this information found in the response headers usually? 20:48:41 yes, the server sends a Set-Cookie header when it wants the client to store a cookie 20:49:11 After that the client should send a Cookie header with that cookie every subsequent request 20:50:20 Suppose I use the (post-impure-port ...) to place the request, assuming the 'post' is correct, I should receive a header with the formatted cookie? 20:50:34 Well the headers of the port, I mean. 20:50:50 I have no idea what a post-impure-port is 20:51:09 http://docs.racket-lang.org/net/url.html?q=cookie&q=net#(def._((lib._net/url..rkt)._post-impure-port)) 20:51:15 Try #racket 20:51:26 It's supported in plt-scheme as well. 20:51:40 Racket was previously known as plt-scheme 20:51:45 It's the same thing 20:51:55 I am aware. 20:52:56 From the description you should be able to extract the cookie from that 20:58:19 -!- mmc1 [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:02:38 saccade [~saccade@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:04:28 smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 21:08:35 -!- saccade [~saccade@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:12:56 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:14:43 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 21:15:35 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:17:31 -!- smtlaissezfaire [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: smtlaissezfaire] 21:28:42 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 21:36:23 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:38:15 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.35] has joined #scheme 21:41:45 kingless [~kingless@adsl-242-219-75.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 21:45:38 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslev044.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:04:12 -!- kingless [~kingless@adsl-242-219-75.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:10:19 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:18:02 -!- nilg` [~user@85.239.138.109] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:59 -!- DrDuck [~duck@adsl-81-55-129.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:27:26 Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-27-34-218.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 22:28:52 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.35] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:32:08 mmc1 [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 22:37:17 kar8nga [~kar8nga@78.104.81.46] has joined #scheme 22:41:42 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@2.121.50.126] has left #scheme 22:55:46 -!- mmc1 [~michal@cs181181164.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:04:36 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:25 -!- nmg [~nick@dsl78-143-208-98.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:37:01 -!- DerGuteM1ritz is now known as DerGuteMoritz 23:53:48 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme