00:02:25 -!- Mandar [~armand@pha75-21-78-228-186-233.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:04:20 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-229-44.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:34 So is a runoff election, but people fill out new ballots just the same. 00:06:38 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:07:11 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:07:37 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-142-196.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:07:51 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-142-196.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:08:35 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-37-109.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:08:39 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-33-88.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 00:09:05 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@155.Red-88-15-69.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:10:15 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:10:51 -!- saac [~saac@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:12:14 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:14:47 saac [~saac@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #scheme 00:15:53 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e064cc1.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 00:16:31 jcowan: You didn't put your foot in it; I did. It's obvious that there are irreconcilable differences of philosophy between the WG members and me, so I'll cease generating noise by responding to questions about how things ought to be done. 00:18:03 I hate it when people threaten to shut up: it's a very powerful rhetorical strategy, and I never know how to respond to it. 00:18:05 Yes, responding to questions is unimportant; what's really important is generating noise about how things ought to be done, whether or not it was solicited! 00:18:42 In addition, "how things should be done" has an implicit scope. "Given these constraints, how should this be done?" is what I usually want to know. 00:19:38 I find it difficult to answer those questions when the constraints provided are arbitrary and (in my view) don't make much sense. 00:20:47 I'm not threatening to shut up; I'm rather apologizing for the bignum discussion, which was thoroughly unproductive, and which I regret having started. 00:21:44 It's not your fault alone -- I piled on too, so you can pile blame on me too. 00:25:10 *jcowan* blames nobody. 00:28:34 Anyhow, what I am doing now has little to do with the WG: I am writing proposals for them to look at. For all I know, they will complain even louder when their attention is focused. 00:29:54 Are there any other topics you'd like to dogpile on? Random numbers would be a useful one right now. (I'm being quite serious.) 00:30:57 http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/RandomnessCommonLisp is my current proposal for that. 00:32:14 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 00:33:01 jcowan: will there be a standard faculty for strong randomness? 00:34:45 Can you explain why there is a concept of a "random state" which is different from a "random source"? 00:35:11 chandler: an already iterated random source is how I understood it 00:35:34 when you want to store a random source's current state after use 00:35:47 I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. 00:36:07 A random state is a read/write-invariant representation of a random source, apparently. 00:36:29 In MIT Scheme this is rendered by EXPORT-RANDOM-STATE and IMPORT-RANDOM-STATE, and `random source' and `random state' are synonymous (one being the term from SRFI 27, and the other being the term from Common Lisp, for a common concept). 00:36:56 I don't understand why there are two separate concepts here. 00:37:00 oh, so it's a seed? 00:37:17 no 00:37:33 Adamant: No one has suggested one. 00:37:52 chandler, presumably, a random source is a more efficient representation. 00:37:59 jcowan: I don't know how much people care about crypto in Scheme, but that's pretty essential 00:38:01 Not necessarily, it's just type-encapsulated. 00:38:36 I haven't looked deeply into it, but C++0x looks like it has a pretty well-conceived PRNG abstraction. 00:38:51 A state can be any type; a source has a disjoint type. 00:39:39 I still don't understand why there are two concepts here. 00:39:53 Why not just specify that random sources must be printable and readable? 00:40:20 *Riastradh* vanishes. 00:41:32 Because Scheme doesn't have extensible syntax. 00:42:01 There is no way to say how to print/read a disjoint type. 00:42:25 So the state must be representable by some existing known datum. 00:42:25 And actually, even that invariant doesn't seem essential to me. It could be suggested to implementors, but the notion of an "equivalent implementation" is so loose that it's not useful absent more specific knowledge about the implementation. 00:43:29 For instance, two slightly different computers running the same version of implementation X might not be able to share random states if one computer has an optional better-quality PRNG installed, or has some cryptographic hardware that provides its own high-quality PRNG fed from a good entropy source. 00:44:43 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:44:52 I would suggest eliminating the concept of a random source entirely, along with the requirement that the source or seed must be externalizable (if that's not a word, it is now!). 00:46:40 foof's use case for externalizability is running student code, where you need to check the output against the gold output. 00:47:41 s/the output/the student's output 00:49:26 -!- imran_sr [~imran@75-18-254-4.lightspeed.uncyca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:49:50 imran_sr [~imran@75-18-254-4.lightspeed.uncyca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:50:25 That's a nice reason to have it as an implementation feature, but there are still a large number of other ways in which different runs of the same program could produce different results. 00:50:56 Yeah, but you get to blame the student for them. 00:51:14 Unless the student's program accidentally passes, sure. 00:51:16 It's an early outcropping of "mocking". 00:51:46 seangrov` [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 00:51:49 But the grader could also just as easily redefine `random' to return some preset sequence of numbers, no? 00:52:55 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:53:16 I suppose. 00:53:24 This really only applies to very trivial programs anyway. When grading programs which use randomness for a real purpose, you'd want to verify that it's using the random numbers sanely, and that things in the output which ought to be random actually *are* random. 00:53:44 I think passing random-sources around a (homogeneous) network is a more sensible use case. 00:54:15 Right, but is it sensible for the standard to require this, or is it just a sensible implementation feature? 00:57:21 Well, I modeled my proposal on CL, so I'll stick with CL's features. 00:57:42 My contention is that it's the latter: the circumstances under which it can be expected to work are implementation-specific by nature, so it's probably best to leave this in the land of implementation-provided extensions. 00:58:52 Despite being a longtime user of Common Lisp, I can't ever recall actually externalizing a random state for any purposes other than visually checking for sameness when debugging. 01:00:22 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 01:00:27 *jcowan* wonders how many random-state implementations there actually are in the CL world. 01:01:07 I suspect one per implementation, with the prossible exception of the CMUCL-derived implementations. 01:01:53 Heh, "prossible". Didn't catch that until now. 01:02:00 *jcowan* chuckles. 01:03:44 In order to implement the program-grading use case, you'd need some way of parameterizing the random state used for initializing random random state objects as well. 01:06:33 Consider the most degenerate case of an implementation running on a platform or in an interpreter where the only facility provided is a function to generate random integers. In order to implement externalizable random states, this implementation essentially needs to provide its own PRNG. 01:07:19 Without externalizable random states, a random state object can be represented as a pair of the random integer that will be used to calculate the next return value from `random' and a mutable box that will be updated later to point to the next random state. 01:07:41 If the user keeps a random state, the history of random numbers generated from that point is stored in memory. If not, it's flushed by the GC. 01:08:53 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 01:09:43 Why can't this be externalized as a list of those integers? 01:09:50 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@217.191.166.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:10:10 The box is an essential part of the state. 01:11:26 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-94.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:11:41 pygospa [~pygospa@217.191.217.12] has joined #scheme 01:12:45 Whenever I want to use Google Code Search, I always have to google it to find it. 01:12:49 Sorry, I simply don't see how the implementation works, with or without externalizable states. 01:12:56 I keep going to , like . 01:13:23 jcowan: Hold on, I'll cook up an implementation. 01:13:57 Riastradh: In general, foo.google.com is deprecated in favor of .google.com/foo. 01:14:05 typically www 01:14:10 What? When did this happen? 01:14:47 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-33-88.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:14:59 New products typically aren't released on separate domains. 01:15:07 Anyway, have you folks looked at the C++0x PRNG abstraction? 01:15:15 Not yet. 01:16:15 It addresses the basic problem that the PRNG abstractions provided by programming languages tend to be useless for any serious randomization purposes. 01:16:30 Pointer? 01:16:48 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-65-135.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 01:16:48 , maybe. 01:17:32 *jcowan* nods. 01:17:49 Incidentally, the STL random_shuffle routine (algorithm? whatever it's called in C++ lingo) implemented in GCC is broken. Oops. 01:17:52 As of 4.4.3, anyway. 01:19:56 -!- franki^ is now known as fds 01:20:15 -!- fds is now known as franki^ 01:21:15 It's unfortunate that rand() % x does actually yield a value in [0, x), because that means the program doesn't obviously break when you use the idiom... 01:21:44 *jcowan* notes that the C++0x version does require random number engines to be externalizable. 01:25:03 Riastradh: chandler doubts the worth of requiring implementations to be able to externalize the state of a random-source. 01:25:39 Riastradh: In case you care about such things: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4093092/mit-scheme-not-working 01:26:51 eli, gee, I don't know anything about Windows, and I'm not sure what to tell someone who doesn't notice `Type ``C-h t'' for a tutorial' or something. 01:28:07 What good does that do if the program won't even start? 01:28:18 It does on his Mac, jcowan. 01:28:43 And does the tutorial explain what to do about heap overflows on Windows? 01:28:45 LISP makes it big in Japan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiUdthoFO-k 01:28:52 drdo` [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 01:29:40 No, jcowan. I was just puzzled by this: `Edwin is a bit confusing. Does anyone know...where I can find some good Edwin tutorials?' When Edwin starts, it says: Type `C-h' for help, or `C-h t' for a tutorial. 01:29:50 Ah, quite. 01:30:04 Evidently he values that tutorial as "not good". 01:30:41 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:31:53 -!- seangrov` [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:32:32 jcowan: Sorry, I had to step away from the keyboard for a few minutes. 01:33:14 Fare: I want one of their computers! http://mottohadeni.net/blog/2010/08/03/briefly-talking-lisp-and-girl-seiyuu-units/ 01:33:15 http://tinyurl.com/39j4zbl 01:33:24 Hmmm...drat. I was hoping MIT Scheme's IMPORT-RANDOM-STATE and EXPORT-RANDOM-STATE were cloned from Common Lisp, so that I could use Google Code Search to find whether anyone uses them. But instead Common Lisp just says that random states are readable and writable. Phooey. 01:33:26 chandler pasted "a simple (and bad) implementation of random states" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/116215 01:33:47 rudybot: init http://paste.lisp.org/display/116215/raw 01:33:51 chandler: your "http://paste.lisp.org/display/116215/raw" sandbox is ready 01:33:57 rudybot: eval (test-random^) 01:33:58 chandler: ; Value: ((766 766 766) (128 128 128) (622 622)) 01:34:05 Gack! 01:34:23 (modulo (platform-rng) limit) 01:35:00 OK, this is a toy illustration, so I'll let this pass. 01:36:25 Riastradh: Well, you know that there are a bunch of people who won't know what "C-h t" means... 01:37:09 Riastradh: I'm not sure which of the many problems here you're commenting on. 01:37:48 eli, yes, that's why it also says: `C-h' means: hold down the Ctrl key and type `h'. 01:38:35 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 01:39:06 chandler, the bias induced by (modulo {a number generated randomly with uniform distribution over a set of consecutive integers starting with 0 whose cardinality is probably not a multiple of LIMIT} limit). 01:39:32 Also, LIMIT may exceed 2^31. 01:39:44 (But the bias is what bothers me at a visceral level.) 01:41:00 franki^, I won a lisp netbook at ILC2010 01:41:03 Anyone using this as an *actual* implementation deserves that. I should have checked the value of LIMIT, I suppose, but as you said, this is a toy. 01:41:30 I was rather annoyed to discover this: 01:41:36 rudybot: eval (random (expt 2 32)) 01:41:36 chandler: error: random: expects argument of type ; given 4294967296 01:41:53 Well, that's dumb. 01:42:06 I wonder whether it's biased, too. 01:42:11 I'm not even sure where that magic number comes from. 01:42:14 Fare: Cool! Have you got any pictures of it? Just for curiosity's sake. :) 01:42:30 rudybot: eval (- 01:42:30 chandler: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 01:42:32 Gah. 01:42:49 rudybot: eval (- 4294967296 4294967087) 01:42:50 chandler: ; Value: 209 01:43:09 Golly... I took one look and assumed it was 2^32 - 1 or something, and didn't even notice that it is 2^32 &~ 0xd0. 01:44:00 *boggle* 01:44:00 franki^, http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/smartbook unhappily the box has a "genesi" logo, not a "LISP" logo. 01:44:18 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:45:31 jcowan: Anyway, hopefully that code makes it more obvious. It's a terrible implementation choice, but I could easily imagine scenarios where it's the best of bad options. 01:45:47 Unfortunately it doesn't help me. Perhaps I'm just too tired. 01:46:11 OK. Basically, it's saving a history of random numbers generated from a particular state. 01:46:13 Wouldn't it be easier just to spend the ten lines of code to implement a linear congruential PRNG? 01:46:28 If you don't mind crappy PRNs, then yes. 01:48:31 chandler, can you imagine a scenario where it is better to do what you described than to implement a linear congruential generator? 01:50:02 You could steal the Mersenne Twister from SBCL, or some such. 01:50:20 I'm sure there are good portable Scheme PRNGs somewhere. 01:50:49 Consider the "itty bitty box" scenario again where any decent PRNG will run too slowly to be usable, but there's a good hardware source of random numbers available. 01:51:13 But you have the memory to record a history of all the numbers you've generated?? 01:51:27 Only if the user actually saves a state. :-) 01:51:39 OK, maybe there isn't a use for this after all. 01:52:10 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #scheme 01:52:12 (Actually, relatively low-speed 32-bit processors with a few megabytes of RAM are becoming more common.) 01:53:06 chandler: you mean, like the green array processors? 01:53:18 In any case, would it be reasonable to rely in some random PRNG from the language specification in that scenario? 01:53:40 http://www.greenarrays.com/ 01:53:46 I don't know; I'm BSing at this point. 01:54:12 (Heh, `some random PRNG'. That was prossibly not intentional.) 01:55:06 Fare: I was thinking more along the lines of the substantially more popular Cortex-M3 series.. 01:57:33 Of course, there's this simple getRandomNumber algorithm: http://xkcd.com/221/ 01:58:09 http://www.dilbert.com/fast/2001-10-25/ 02:01:14 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 02:03:57 chandler: relatively is of course relative to other 32/64-bit. they spank 8-bits. 02:04:43 "three point one four one five nine [...] nine nine nine nine nine nine, and so on!" 02:06:08 10001110101, periodic table, with the centerpiece of mind 02:06:40 There are 756 digits hidden under that "[...]" 02:12:38 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:15:39 What was the link to the PRNG abstraction proposal? 02:17:38 Also, is there anything else for me to waste time fruitlessly discussing to death? 02:17:47 I'm in a fruitless death-discussion kind of mood. 02:23:00 How about floating-point control modes and exception flags? 02:23:43 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 02:29:16 Riastradh, how about multidimension matrix processing? 02:35:53 On a totally unrelated note, can anyone here recommend an RSS or Atom reader, preferably one running in GNU Emacs? 02:39:50 I'm afraid that I cannot, but if you happen to find one, please do let me know. 02:39:58 I'd like to use such a thing as well. 02:43:54 It's too bad emacs-w3m is totally broken. It quickly makes Emacs spectacularly crash. 02:48:19 *jcowan* notes the existence of GnusRss, but knows nothing about it. 02:48:28 I don't think I want to use gnus... 02:49:00 Well, then there is newsticker. 02:50:23 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:53:45 Yikes! 02:54:11 If you wanted to use Gnus, I was about to suggest Gwene. 02:54:59 newsticker looks too complicated. 02:55:26 *jcowan* uses Google Reader. 02:56:30 -!- jcowan [~John@98.14.172.204] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:57:18 I also use Google Reader, but I would honestly be happier with a local application to do the reading; the part that I like is the server-side storage and the sharing options. 02:57:32 I suppose I ought to be embarrassed about that. 02:59:19 Why? 02:59:47 Embarrassed about which part: using Google Reader, wanting a local application, wanting someone else to host your state, or wanting to share something? 03:00:07 -!- aisa [~aisa@c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:00:35 *offby1* is happy with Google Reader 03:00:47 on my various mobile toys, I use apps to cache stuff locally 03:00:54 on a real computer, I just use the web interface 03:01:40 I'd consider using Google Reader if it were free software running locally redirectable through Tor without sending any information to Google... 03:02:11 you could get a new gmail account, not tied to anything else 03:02:14 use tor to read it 03:02:21 they'd quickly learn a lot about this particular person 03:02:29 but if you're careful about what you read, they might not guess it's you. 03:02:33 maybe. 03:02:45 Riastradh, embarrassed with wanting (or at least being satisfied with) someone else hosting my state, and by extension using Google Reader. 03:02:48 I suspect you were making a joke. 03:04:57 -!- rudybot [~luser@2001:470:1:41:a800:ff:fe3e:cde7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06:45 rudybot [~luser@2001:470:1:41:a800:ff:fe3e:cde7] has joined #scheme 03:07:13 offby1, yes, I suppose you could call it a joke. 03:07:18 rudybot: eval (string-length " ") 03:07:20 offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 03:07:20 offby1: ; Value: 11 03:07:29 eli: ^^ merged 03:07:44 Google Reader violates all of the hard constraints and some of the soft ones (e.g., it runs in a web browser, not in Emacs). 03:08:03 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:14:18 rudybot: (define x 1) 03:14:18 eli: your sandbox is ready 03:14:19 eli: Done. 03:14:23 Whew! 03:14:51 offby1: Was it just a click to merge all like they blah blah-ed on? 03:15:03 -!- not-rudy-bot [~luser@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:20:02 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:23:14 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 03:23:57 eli: sorta 03:24:07 you'd rebased a bunch of my commits, so I deliberately excluded them 03:24:28 .oO("they"? "blah blah-ed"?) 03:24:42 Ah, so I should have kept it as I took it, without rebasing... 03:24:58 Gosh, I thought you were the git expert now. 03:25:02 There was some excited blog post, and a similarly excited webcast thing... 03:25:18 Well, it's a github feature, not really related... 03:25:53 shh ... schacon is in #git right now 03:25:58 he's a githubber 03:26:46 (He's usually there, I think...) 03:27:19 In any case, it's not really negative opinion, just an impression of them usually being excited about all kinds of stuffs.. 03:27:48 I may well have seen those videos, but they just slid past without me paying attention 03:28:33 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:29:11 Maybe this means that I'm getting too excited by these excited videos. 03:29:40 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-55-13.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:00 you need some stability in your life. 03:30:18 *gnomon* hefts a sandbag hopefully 03:30:19 _danb_` [~user@124-168-42-90.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 03:30:22 I think the official githubby way would be for you to have made a "pull request" once you'd finished your commits. 03:30:23 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:30:34 never done that, though. 03:31:32 I thought that this merge queue thing was replacing those. (Which I didn't try either.) 03:31:41 -!- _danb_` is now known as _danb_ 03:33:01 .oO("merge queue"?) 03:33:09 You may be more up on the new hotness than I. 03:34:17 ... "Fork Queue". 03:34:25 You mean you didn't use that? 03:36:14 naw 03:36:18 well, maybe I did 03:36:21 I think I looked at it 03:36:41 Oh, and fork queue too 03:36:43 *offby1* slaps thigh 03:36:49 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-94.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 03:37:07 oh heck no, I never even noticed that. 03:37:19 Ah, so you missed all the fun. 03:37:30 huh, so those are all commits that I might merge. 03:37:31 Who knew. 03:37:53 You're supposed to choose the commits, apply, review the changes, then commit, all in the web interface. 03:38:11 gosh 03:38:14 (Like I said, the video makes it sound as exciting as skydiving.) 03:38:24 how the hell am I supposed to run tests from the web interface? 03:38:50 *offby1* realizes this isn't the most on-topic discussion 03:38:51 How am I supposed to be a crusty Unix curmudgeon from the web interface? 03:39:01 Riastradh: you can't; that's the whole point! 03:39:06 *evil laughter* 03:39:39 geez, the feature is almost two years old. 03:39:45 (I suppose that in that direction you get that java thing, which I don't remember its name.) 03:39:58 I'm pretty sure it was recent. 03:40:29 emma_ [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 03:40:37 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:40:38 schacon [~schacon@adsl-76-200-163-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:40:41 sup? 03:40:51 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.144.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:40:53 lemme paste some scrollback 03:40:54 No, I would not like to sup right now; I have already eaten. 03:41:15 schacon: https://gist.github.com/gists 03:41:17 oops 03:41:22 that didn't work, did it. 03:41:23 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 03:41:36 sappinin homey? 03:41:58 I used to be able to automatically paste to gist from emacs ... something musta broke 03:42:20 masm [~masm@2.80.144.108] has joined #scheme 03:42:51 Can't find it. Too many pictures of alcohol on that blog. 03:42:59 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.144.108] has quit [Client Quit] 03:43:10 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-94.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:43:19 schacon: https://gist.github.com/662104 03:44:51 I thought I was the github king. But I just handed my fork-queue crown to him. 03:45:05 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-142-196.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:45:23 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-142-196.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:49:56 what's the question? 03:49:59 what is the fork queue for? 03:50:12 or why are we excited by fanbois videos? 03:50:21 I think offby1 meant to address eli, and his tab completion totally botched. 03:50:42 mostly the former, but I haven't read the article you wrote (two years ago!) introducing the feature 03:50:49 Oh. 03:50:53 Maybe not. Never mind. 03:51:00 it's just a cherry-pick UI 03:51:08 oh 03:51:23 that was an excellent explanation :) 03:51:36 fork queue shows you all the unique commits anywhere in your network that are not picked into your repository 03:51:49 and lets you cherry pick them one at a time, as though they were patches 03:51:51 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-142-196.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:52:25 ah, so it's not for, say, merging. 03:52:26 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176195079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:52:27 the pull request stuff is a bit different - it allows people to send you a branch and request to pull it in - merge instead of cherry-pick 03:52:33 *nod 03:52:38 timj_ [~timj@e176195079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:52:47 (... and for some reason I thought it (the forq queue thing) was a recent thing.) 03:52:56 It's recent to me :) 03:52:57 so if you like cherry-picking/rebasing, you use the fork queue, if you prefer merging you use the pull requests 03:53:06 no, it's one of the first things i did at github 03:53:11 probably two years ago now 03:53:18 for the record, i hate it 03:53:22 heh 03:53:44 but one of the other githubbers loves it, as do others, so it survives 03:53:58 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-142-196.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:54:29 *eli* likes cherry picking for other reasons. 03:54:44 because you make kirsch out of 'em, I'm guessing. 03:55:30 Well, that too, maybe. 03:57:14 mmm, cherry pie 04:02:07 How does github make money? 04:08:42 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:15:30 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:18:48 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:19:09 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-rwltqmfqwwvoncwm] has joined #scheme 04:27:14 -!- imran_sr [~imran@75-18-254-4.lightspeed.uncyca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:28:56 -!- saac [~saac@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:29:23 saac [~saac@a81-84-164-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 04:29:23 -!- saac [~saac@a81-84-164-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Changing host] 04:29:23 saac [~saac@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #scheme 04:30:34 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-6-84.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:31:16 saac_ [~saac@a81-84-164-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 04:31:22 -!- saac_ [~saac@a81-84-164-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 04:37:03 -!- saac [~saac@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:42:55 -!- schacon [~schacon@adsl-76-200-163-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: schacon] 04:46:55 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-116.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:47:10 arcfide, you're late for the WGn discussion-to-death-fest. 04:51:40 Riastradh: I'm not sure what Google Reader does that a local RSS reader doesn't. 04:53:18 Riastradh: the only thing I can think of is: they charge a little to keep your repo private. 04:56:40 schacon_ [~schacon@adsl-76-200-163-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:56:46 Adamant: collects things even when you aren't online (RSS feeds tend to forget anything past the 10 most recent or something) 04:56:49 Riastradh: What discussion to death fest? 04:57:01 Did I miss something outside of the mailing list discussion to death? 04:57:06 so if you go away for a month, and you miss K items, you will not have a complete history 04:57:11 I'm still about 200 emails worth of WG discussion behind. 04:57:32 (also, I wish RSS required a parameter that let me say I wanted all of history. Some blogs are awesome and I'd like to read the entire thing offline) 04:58:01 copumpkin: true, but not a problem for regular RSS users 04:58:02 arcfide, we discussed integer arithmetic and random generation to death, not coming to any particularly fruitful conclusions. 04:58:13 Hah. 04:58:16 That sounds about right. 04:58:28 also you can have a online server if you really need that, although that costs money. 04:58:28 -!- schacon_ [~schacon@adsl-76-200-163-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:59:34 Adamant, Google Reader helps to aggregate information about its users for Google's purposes, whatever they may be, and resists attempts by anyone but Googlers to read or modify its implementation. 04:59:47 those are totally a feature 05:00:31 remind me when Google gets their GoogleBrainImplant tech off the ground so it can send me targeted advertising based on my current thought patterns 05:01:04 and/or have me hate on Facebook and Apple in public 05:01:31 (I presume Google Reader also has ads, which would be another hard constraint violation.) 05:01:56 lots of things have ads. if you don't like ads, you have AdBlock. 05:02:24 Adamant: That's like supporting the spammers because you have spam filtering. 05:02:25 Until a couple days ago, I don't think I ever saw ads in gmail, and I've been using it exclusively for years 05:02:30 I'm less disturbed by ads and more disturbed by the mini-FBI-files that have been developed by advertisers to sell me targetted advertising 05:03:06 Bah, now I remember why I have to stay off this channel.... 05:03:07 general advertising is totally cool in my book and I wouldn't AdBlock it because developers gotta eat 05:03:08 I talk. 05:03:20 why you no can talk 05:03:21 *arcfide* gets back to work. 05:03:26 good answer 05:03:28 I have too much work.... 05:03:46 And the final page of the manual I have to read is printing out, so...procrastination is at an end. 05:03:52 It was good to drop in and say hello though. :-) 05:03:53 COMPILING 05:03:54 :P 05:04:01 good to see you as well. :) 05:04:11 Adamant: I use Chez, I don't wait for my compiler. :-P 05:04:13 jimmy_sjtu [~jimmy@218.193.190.132] has joined #scheme 05:04:24 See ya'll. 05:04:34 Have fun with meta-analyzing the WG's! 05:05:26 Riastradh: also, github makes money by subscriptions 05:05:44 private and non-open-source repos cost money 05:06:08 so does use by a for-profit business, etc. etc. 05:08:17 Adamant: I just hate ads that move, or play sounds 05:08:23 others I can ignore 05:08:43 Flashblock, NoScript, or Adblock all solve those 05:08:47 yep 05:08:58 there are equivalents for Flashblock and Adblock in Chrome 05:09:06 yep 05:09:10 yep 05:09:17 yep? 05:09:18 ayup, mm-hmm 05:09:30 ah, you sly rogue 05:09:40 Some folks calls it a sling blade, mm-hm. 05:09:47 I was wondering if that was coming. 05:10:02 but you call it a Kaiser blade. 05:10:29 Henry Kaiser? The Kaiser of Prussia and All Germany? Kaiser Roll? 05:10:30 who knkows 05:11:07 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:11:12 kaiser sose? 05:11:13 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #scheme 05:12:02 I think that was with a z 05:12:07 I don't know if that matters 05:12:18 after all, he is the Devil Himself. 05:12:18 its the difference between life and death 05:31:56 jengle [~jengle@64-252-187-48.adsl.snet.net] has joined #scheme 05:32:40 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:33:53 -!- offby1 is now known as someone-else 05:34:05 -!- someone-else is now known as offby1 05:34:28 -!- offby1 is now known as someone-else 05:34:35 -!- someone-else is now known as offby1 05:37:52 -!- arcfide [1000@c-69-136-6-84.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #scheme 05:42:05 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 05:49:57 -!- jimmy_sjtu [~jimmy@218.193.190.132] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:51:31 saac [~saac@a81-84-164-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 06:09:00 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 06:09:10 -!- jengle [~jengle@64-252-187-48.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Quit: jengle] 06:16:02 kar8nga [~kar8nga@m-28.vc-graz.ac.at] has joined #scheme 06:16:03 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@m-28.vc-graz.ac.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:18:08 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 06:36:36 seangrov` [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:47:25 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-65-135.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:48:34 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-28-132.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 07:01:48 -!- mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:08:12 karme [~user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 07:14:26 jengle [~jengle@64-252-187-48.adsl.snet.net] has joined #scheme 07:16:16 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:23:27 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-94.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:29:21 -!- saac [~saac@a81-84-164-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Changing host] 07:29:22 saac [~saac@unaffiliated/saac] has joined #scheme 07:53:17 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:55:20 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 07:58:05 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-64-53.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 07:58:40 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-28-132.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:14:16 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e064cc1.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 08:23:11 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:29:00 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:29:47 ethun [~ethun@59.93.193.87] has joined #scheme 08:37:27 -!- jengle [~jengle@64-252-187-48.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Quit: jengle] 08:41:48 schmir [~schmir@p54A90FB1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 08:47:40 scriptha [~sc@ip4da3afe2.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #scheme 08:49:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-229-44.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 08:52:43 mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 08:55:38 dzhus [~sphinx@95-24-166-183.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 09:09:02 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-73-136.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 09:09:14 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-64-53.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:15:06 Hello, I have query about an exercise in the tspl book. I have posted the code at http://paste.lisp.org/+2HOJ. Thanks for your response 09:17:23 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:17:40 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 09:26:04 -!- ethun [~ethun@59.93.193.87] has left #scheme 09:47:57 ethun [~ethun@59.93.193.87] has joined #scheme 09:49:32 -!- ethun [~ethun@59.93.193.87] has left #scheme 09:57:35 HG` [~HG@xdslei013.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 09:59:01 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.56] has joined #scheme 10:03:45 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-79-97.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 10:04:09 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslei013.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:04:35 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-73-136.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:16:20 -!- jao [~user@141.Red-79-145-118.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:19:09 masm [~masm@bl19-144-108.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:29:33 -!- Axsuul [~someone@97-93-99-133.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:43:44 -!- Intensity [2nGOhrNbVB@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:46:05 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.32] has joined #scheme 10:57:21 femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 10:58:41 jao [~user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 11:00:08 is anyone here using kawa to program for android? 11:01:36 doc_who [~doc_who@138-78-106-107.resnet.smcm.edu] has joined #scheme 11:03:16 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.32] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:05:38 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-79-97.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:07:53 HG` [~HG@xdslei013.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 11:08:20 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-17-128.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 11:08:51 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 11:12:28 -!- vu3rdd 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[~user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:35 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-12-158.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:58:03 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:00:57 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-15-150.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 13:07:48 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-13-65.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:07:50 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-204-212.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:08:35 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-27-155.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 13:09:03 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.105.29] has joined #scheme 13:14:25 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslei013.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:21:10 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-204-212.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:35:44 EbiDK [~ebi@3e6b7ac3.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #scheme 13:44:15 ecraven, I'm told the guys behind App Inventor do. 13:44:25 copumpkin [~pumpkin@user-142hbak.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 13:44:26 (but they are not here, that I know) 13:46:53 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@user-142hbak.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:16 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-82-129.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:00:01 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-27-155.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:02:01 thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has joined #scheme 14:02:40 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:02:55 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 14:04:26 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has left #scheme 14:05:16 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 14:06:00 aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:23:57 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.32] has joined #scheme 14:25:00 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:25:08 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 14:29:37 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:28 copumpkin [~pumpkin@131.247.67.79] has joined #scheme 14:38:55 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 14:39:23 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 14:39:30 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 14:40:24 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:44:43 -!- saac [~saac@unaffiliated/saac] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:47:41 ecraven: there's also something called Moby that is supposed to let you use Scheme on Android 14:50:37 dnm_ [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:53:51 the strange plt thing.. 14:54:20 can't seem to find anything that works well.. kawa is strange, to say the least, jscheme and sisc don't quite work.. 14:58:48 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-43-9.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:59:11 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-82-129.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:02:58 ethun [~rajag@59.93.193.35] has joined #scheme 15:08:21 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:10:22 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:17:45 mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 15:22:25 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:23:36 kty1104 [~kty1104@59.4.64.226] has joined #scheme 15:29:23 -!- kty1104 [~kty1104@59.4.64.226] has quit [Quit:   .] 15:29:58 kty1104 [~kty1104@59.4.64.226] has joined #scheme 15:30:27 hello 15:30:43 anybody there? 15:31:09 yes, there are lots of people here 15:31:19 how come here is so quite? 15:31:32 jengle [~jengle@64-252-187-48.adsl.snet.net] has joined #scheme 15:31:35 nobody here but us zombie processes. 15:35:56 Intensity [R3EHaLBWO3@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #scheme 15:36:39 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 15:41:16 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:43:59 kill -CHLD offby1! 15:48:00 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:52:48 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@131.247.67.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:02 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 15:53:59 -!- ethun [~rajag@59.93.193.35] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1] 15:57:42 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:59:32 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-75-82.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 15:59:43 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-43-9.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:02:30 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C2AE73.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:02 ethun [~rajag@59.93.193.35] has joined #scheme 16:08:31 femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 16:09:30 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 16:09:43 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:09:58 -!- ethun [~rajag@59.93.193.35] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1] 16:14:08 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:16:12 does anyone know how i can access inner (nested) classes from within kawa? 16:16:35 kuribas [~user@d54C2AE73.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 16:17:18 ah, the obvious.. $ 16:19:08 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:24:57 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90FB1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:53 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 16:43:08 -!- tupi_ [~david@186.205.37.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:43:37 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:48:02 HG` [~HG@xdslei013.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 16:56:45 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 16:58:53 -!- Intensity [R3EHaLBWO3@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Quit: Intensity] 16:59:28 -!- mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:01:20 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:02:12 firecrow8 [~fcrow@69.38.169.34] has joined #scheme 17:03:26 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:03:31 Intensity [tHQF89vu3z@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #scheme 17:04:24 -!- Intensity [tHQF89vu3z@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Client Quit] 17:04:52 Intensity [0fWH4oszNg@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #scheme 17:05:13 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 17:06:35 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-75-82.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:07:03 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-87-53.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 17:09:43 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:13:12 tupi [~david@186.205.37.15] has joined #scheme 17:16:21 copumpkin [~pumpkin@131.247.67.79] has joined #scheme 17:16:30 -!- jengle [~jengle@64-252-187-48.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:16:48 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 17:18:56 -!- jao [~user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:23:26 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 17:28:05 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:28:46 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 17:30:42 vieq [~vieq@metabug/vieq] has joined #scheme 17:32:05 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 17:33:41 want to learn scheme, book names that you recommended? 17:36:04 The Scheme Programming Language 17:36:33 17:36:47 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:36:55 jengle [~jengle@64-252-187-48.adsl.snet.net] has joined #scheme 17:38:13 femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 17:41:24 mario-goulart: the 4th edition? 17:43:04 personaly, http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/, is one of the few books that had the biggest impact on me 17:43:10 vieq: The 3rd is online, IIRC. I don't know if the 4th is. 17:43:26 http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_i_0?rh=k%3AThe+Scheme+Programming+Language%2Ci%3Astripbooks&keywords=The+Scheme+Programming+Language&ie=UTF8&qid=1288892408#%2Fref%3Dsr_st%3Fkeywords%3DThe%2BScheme%2BProgramming%2BLanguage%26qid%3D1288892562%26rh%3Dk%253AThe%2BScheme%2BProgramming%2BLanguage%252Cn%253A283155%26sort%3Dsalesrank&enc=1 17:43:26 http://tinyurl.com/28nyo7k 17:44:13 vieq: If you can't afford buying the 4th edition, the 3rd is a good option. 17:44:19 mario-goulart: I gotta know before I spend my money 17:44:23 I can 17:44:41 it's just there is other books too 17:44:49 so it's one shot 17:45:07 Anyway, I only know the 3rd, but I suppose the 4th got something better. :-) 17:45:33 thanks for sharing 17:46:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-229-44.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:46:33 You're welcome. 17:48:59 -!- vieq [~vieq@metabug/vieq] has left #scheme 17:50:45 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 17:51:42 vieq [~vieq@metabug/vieq] has joined #scheme 17:51:50 found the 4th edition online http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/ 17:51:57 so I thought of sharing as well 17:52:01 thanks again mario-goulart 17:52:39 last question I am using Fedora Linux, searching for scheme over yum came back with loads of results 17:53:20 Cool, vieq 17:53:22 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-193.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:53:43 vieq: there are also some very good video lessons about scheme. 17:53:59 URL? 17:54:02 http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 17:54:23 http://pastebin.com/gJYijrFT 17:55:09 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:55:45 vieq: one of the hardest aspects of scheme is picking an implementation. :-) 17:56:03 :S, what if I do not want to kill my self over it? 17:56:21 There are safe bets like Racket and Chicken. 17:56:23 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable041.134-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:56:23 That's not too hard. Try every one until you find the one that irritates you least. 17:56:59 Jafet: well plt-scheme.x86_64 seems familiar 17:57:10 -!- jengle [~jengle@64-252-187-48.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Quit: jengle] 17:57:15 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 17:59:04 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 18:00:41 Axius [~darkstar@109.97.54.252] has joined #scheme 18:03:51 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:04:29 femtooo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 18:06:09 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:06:09 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:06:09 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 18:07:38 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:08:04 vieq: PLT Scheme is now known as Racket. 18:08:48 eli: just found out, how ever I always prefer to install via yum 18:09:08 vieq: Do yourself a favor, and use the installers. 18:09:27 eli: well consider it right away 18:09:43 The default mode of the installer is to create a single directory with everything in it. 18:09:53 just out of curiosity, is there is a reason I should use racket instead of plt? 18:10:08 You can then move it anywhere you want, or just remove it when you don't want to use it any more. No need to change anything else in your system. 18:10:24 You should use Racket simply because it's a newer version. 18:10:43 good reason enough 18:10:44 -!- Axius [~darkstar@109.97.54.252] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:14:00 rpg_ [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #scheme 18:16:39 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 18:16:53 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:18:28 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:21:38 rpg [~rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #scheme 18:23:11 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:23:56 Axsuul [~someone@97-93-99-133.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 18:38:25 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 18:45:54 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:52:53 -!- rpg [~rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:52:59 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 18:58:28 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:59:07 -!- stamourv [~user@kauai.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:28 stamourv [~user@kauai.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:00:18 -!- femtooo [~femto@95-89-197-196-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:04:51 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:06:22 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C2AE73.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:08:35 -!- stamourv [~user@kauai.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:08:45 stamourv [~user@kauai.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:09:18 mmc [~michal@cs27120227.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 19:11:18 rpg [~rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #scheme 19:14:43 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 19:15:38 -!- rpg [~rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:16:57 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 19:17:11 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:19:15 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:20:03 rpg [~rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #scheme 19:34:02 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 19:38:05 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:38:17 kar8nga [~kar8nga@k-173.vc-graz.ac.at] has joined #scheme 19:44:19 -!- rpg [~rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:45:42 hotblack231 [~jh@p57BD7C8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:48:06 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #scheme 19:53:21 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 19:56:22 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:05:03 vieq: you can choose: http://imagebin.ca/view/qCdO-974.html 20:21:24 schmir [~schmir@p54A90809.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:22:32 Renaming is always a bad P.R. affair. 20:27:51 "Ce nez, ce regard biaiseux, tu es le petit fillot de la fripouille. Je n'ôse entrevoir telle infâmie. [...] C'est un félon ce Jaquard, son vrai nom c'est Jacouille." 20:50:39 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 20:55:18 pjb: HAHAHAHAHA 20:55:46 jao [~user@141.Red-79-145-118.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:01:31 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-247-192.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:01 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 21:16:56 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 21:23:45 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 21:25:50 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:42:04 wingo [~wingo@240.Red-79-156-144.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:42:09 schemers 21:42:15 it has become november. 21:44:23 indeed 21:47:38 klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:49:00 remember remember the first of november 21:51:00 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:51:52 Fifth. :| 21:57:53 indeed, fourth here though :-) 21:59:58 -!- githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:01:07 -!- EbiDK [~ebi@3e6b7ac3.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:01:46 -!- firecrow8 [~fcrow@69.38.169.34] has left #scheme 22:02:10 -!- klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: klovett] 22:02:13 *wingo* feels a little silly for writing what amounts to the same thing as sjamaan's intarwebs 22:04:25 -!- vieq [~vieq@metabug/vieq] has left #scheme 22:06:14 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:06:40 wingo: we cannot be super original everyday... 22:06:52 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-25-82-254-177-74.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:12:10 githogori [~githogori@adsl-66-123-22-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:13:21 klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:15:28 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:21:47 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-32-82-254-4-217.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 22:22:07 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:43 -!- dnm_ [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:27:44 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:28:10 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #scheme 22:30:36 laurus [~laurus@c-68-40-207-109.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:30:39 -!- aisa [~aisa@173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:30:42 Why does (cons '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) give ((1 2 3) 4 5 6) ? 22:33:03 laurus: (cons X Y) = (X . Y), so (cons '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) ==> ((1 2 3) . (4 5 6)), but (4 5 6) = (4 . (5 . (6 . ()))) so ((1 2 3) . (4 5 6)) ==> ((1 2 3) . (4 . (5 . (6 . ())))), but (X . (a . (b . ()))) ==> (X a b), so ((1 2 3) . (4 . (5 . (6 . ())))) ==> ((1 2 3) 4 5 6) 22:33:33 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:33:44 Quadrescence, wow, thanks for writing that all out! 22:34:06 If you want ((1 2 3) (4 5 6)), then you can do (list '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) 22:34:18 seangrove [~user@184-192-201-35.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #scheme 22:34:54 Actually, I'm going through the tutorial at http://www.shido.info/lisp/idx_scm_e.html and I think I must have been really tired, since I typed cons instead of car, but I didn't understand the result 22:39:51 Quadrescence: '(1 2 3 . 4) is the same as (quote (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 '()))))) correct? 22:40:10 Er 22:40:52 (quote (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 4)))) , correct? 22:41:46 yes 22:42:08 Thanks :) I'm getting it now I think. 22:43:30 Is there anything for Scheme akin to the os module in Python? 22:45:18 Depends on your implementation. 22:45:29 Argh 22:45:36 This is why I've avoided Scheme until now :P 22:45:59 Why? Just choose am implementation you like and use it 22:46:13 I want to use Guile 22:47:04 guile provides a posix-like api; though windows support is not the best 22:47:16 wingo, that's okay, I'm on the GNU system! ;) 22:47:20 but the posixy api is usually there on windows 22:47:23 heh cool :) 22:47:24 By the way, I'm really excited about your work on Guile 22:47:31 tx! have fun :) 22:47:35 Thanks! :) 22:47:53 what did you want from os? 22:48:14 been a while since i hacked python in anger... 22:48:40 Heh. I was going through the Scheme tutorial I pasted above, and there's a part where he does (cd a_directory) so I was looking for that function. 22:49:06 chdir i think 22:50:04 It worked, thanks! 22:50:26 By the way wingo, this probably isn't the right channel for this, but I think you should advertise for Guile 2.0 a lot. I just told a friend about it today and he got really excited 22:50:37 Perhaps a better web site, or I don't know, something 22:50:53 The Emacs in Guile thing is half of what made him so excited 22:51:05 In fact that's half the reason I'm learning it now 22:51:08 probably more on topic for #guile, but you have a good point 22:51:43 :) 22:54:43 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90809.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:54 hypercube32 [~hypercube@158.102.207.68.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:01:47 Is it preferable to use lambda or not when defining functions? 23:05:13 laurus: it's a matter of personal preference. 23:05:33 pjb, I see :) 23:06:11 laurus: You can ask scheme whetner (equalp ''(1 2 3 . 4) '(quote (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 '())))))) 23:06:36 rudybot: eval (equalp ''(1 2 3 . 4) '(quote (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 '())))))) 23:06:37 pjb: your r5rs sandbox is ready 23:06:37 pjb: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: equalp in module: 'program 23:06:42 -!- jao [~user@141.Red-79-145-118.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:43 rudybot: eval (equal? ''(1 2 3 . 4) '(quote (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 '())))))) 23:06:43 pjb: ; Value: #f 23:06:53 Ah, very cool :) Thank you! 23:08:00 laurus: the point is that when you read "(1 2 3 . 4)", it's the reader that will construct the list and return (1 2 3 . 4). When you read "(quote (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 '())))))", you don't get the list (1 2 3 . 4), but the list: (quote (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 '()))))). Obviously they're not equal. 23:08:22 pjb, yeah, I realized my mistake with the quote thing :P Thanks for pointing it out 23:08:53 And itwill return the list (quote (1 2 3 . 4)) when you read "'(1 2 3 . 4)" which is not equal either. 23:09:36 But when you evaluate these forms, (quote (1 2 3 . 4)) produces (1 2 3 . 4) and (quote (cons 1 (cons 23:09:36 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 '()))))) produces (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 '())))), which is still not equal. 23:09:43 Right, heh 23:10:17 On the other hand, if you evlauate (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 '())))), you get (1 2 3 4), which is still not equal to (1 2 3 . 4)... 23:10:58 Right 23:11:05 So, the reader produces sexps. eval evaluates sexps and produces sexps. But quote returns its argument unchanged. 23:11:29 I understand now :) Thanks! 23:11:55 Good. 23:11:58 I'm kind of surprised more people aren't using this language 23:12:07 It's so remarkably consistent with the syntax 23:13:03 jao [~user@141.Red-79-145-118.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:16:03 -!- laurus [~laurus@c-68-40-207-109.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #scheme 23:16:23 -!- seangrove [~user@184-192-201-35.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:26:14 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:26:49 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e064cc1.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 23:32:32 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:11 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 23:37:13 -!- wingo [~wingo@240.Red-79-156-144.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:38:14 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@k-173.vc-graz.ac.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:46 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-94.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:51:39 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.32] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:53:41 -!- hotblack231 [~jh@p57BD7C8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]