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04:11:01 DuncanM 04:13:03 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-15-104.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 04:15:03 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:15:33 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:42:43 -!- easy4 [~easy4@c-174-60-36-128.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: easy4] 05:08:11 -!- rmrfchik [~rmrfchik@linuxhacker.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:27:33 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:48:00 -!- sepp2k [~sexy@p548CEACC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: sepp2k] 05:50:17 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:52:08 choas [~lars@p5792CF5C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 06:56:47 -!- paperkettles [~chris@ip72-195-132-159.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:59:28 paperkettles [~chris@ip72-195-132-159.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #scheme 06:59:38 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-82-72.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 07:00:15 -!- paperkettles [~chris@ip72-195-132-159.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:05:14 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:08:42 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 07:15:27 -!- timj_ is now known as timj 07:29:26 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-15-104.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:47:42 paperkettles [~chris@ip72-195-132-159.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #scheme 07:48:02 -!- Leonidas_ is now known as Leonidas 07:56:51 reified [~reified@usr018.bb160-01.udk.im.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 08:01:23 rbarraud [~rbarraud@202-180-88-252.callplus.net.nz] has joined #scheme 08:16:26 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 08:17:36 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 08:20:54 alaricsp [~alaric@mukhadvaram.gurukuli.co.uk] has joined #scheme 08:34:23 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e0aadb6.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 08:42:06 -!- paperkettles [~chris@ip72-195-132-159.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: paperkettles] 08:56:23 cky: these 21-bit bytes remind me RADIX-50. 09:03:03 -!- jlongster [~user@c-71-204-23-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:04:14 darkmag [~vfalico@guest-docking-nat-1-159.ethz.ch] has joined #scheme 09:07:13 -!- jao [~user@83.50.71.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:07:26 -!- darkmag [~vfalico@guest-docking-nat-1-159.ethz.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 09:07:37 darkmag [~vfalico@guest-docking-nat-1-159.ethz.ch] has joined #scheme 09:11:17 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:11:40 mmc [~michal@cs190095.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 09:17:09 cthuluh [moo@wxcvbn.org] has joined #scheme 09:18:43 -!- cthuluh [moo@wxcvbn.org] has left #scheme 09:21:02 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@mukhadvaram.gurukuli.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:23:00 -!- mmc [~michal@cs190095.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:29:20 -!- adadglgmut [~steve@cpe-65-25-14-11.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:29:46 githogori [~githogori@65.197.200.12] has joined #scheme 09:33:48 -!- darkmag [~vfalico@guest-docking-nat-1-159.ethz.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:37:24 -!- SirNick [~nick@c-67-160-151-16.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:53:14 -!- pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:57:32 mmc [~michal@cs190095.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 10:03:58 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 10:10:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-48.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 10:15:25 hohoho [~hohoho@bm203-180-244-172.bmobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:16:24 dzhus [~sphinx@95-24-5-199.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 10:21:22 nataraj [~natarajsn@122.165.223.135] has joined #scheme 10:26:03 need to modify a Wiliki written in gosh 10:28:00 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@202-180-88-252.callplus.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:28:50 Oh gosh 10:29:06 (the implementation is called "Gauche", not "gosh") 10:32:30 Oh darn 10:33:41 can't quite break in 10:33:57 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-215.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 10:34:26 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 10:37:31 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 10:39:10 (use wiliki) 10:39:17 kinda #include? 10:44:22 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 10:44:50 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 10:45:50 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-215.vinet.ba] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:48:10 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-82-72.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:49:04 -!- githogori [~githogori@65.197.200.12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:52:48 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:53:08 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 11:05:21 lbc_ [~lbc@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 11:20:58 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-48.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:23:19 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 11:39:28 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-48.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 11:43:30 In the first place, 11:43:47 (let ([x (* 3 4)]) (+ x x)), why would anybody need such an expresion at all? 11:48:17 that specific expression? No particular reason. 11:48:30 (I'm not stalking you, honest :-) 11:50:25 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-178.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 11:54:08 masm [~masm@bl16-180-46.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 11:54:36 -!- nataraj [~natarajsn@122.165.223.135] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:07:18 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@g230084020.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:15:40 pygospa [~pygospa@g230084020.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 12:17:25 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:54 -!- reified [~reified@usr018.bb160-01.udk.im.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: reified] 12:41:32 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 12:42:57 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@bm203-180-244-172.bmobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45:59 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:46:24 easy4 [~easy4@c-174-60-36-128.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:49:26 hohoho [~hohoho@bm203-180-244-172.bmobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:04:50 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:44 darkmag [~vfalico@guest-docking-nat-1-087.ethz.ch] has joined #scheme 13:10:49 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 13:13:59 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:15:05 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 13:16:47 edw [~user@c-71-225-69-168.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:17:33 The MIT Scheme User's Manual's ToC is at the _back_ in the PDF. Interesting choice. 13:20:32 You should see what they put on page 3. 13:21:18 -!- darkmag [~vfalico@guest-docking-nat-1-087.ethz.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:24:30 Uhh... Chapter one? 13:25:42 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 13:28:20 davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:29:29 That was version 7.0's User Manual, btw. For 9.0, they seem to have succumbed to convention. 13:32:58 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 13:53:12 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@bm203-180-244-172.bmobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:54 megajosh2 [~megajosh2@pool-96-241-38-130.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:38:14 alvatar [~alvatar@125.232.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 14:38:14 hi! 14:38:19 hi 14:38:24 Hi! 14:38:29 has anyone tried STKLOS 14:38:34 www.stklos.net 14:39:53 I'd take that as a "no." 14:40:34 hehe 14:40:44 well sometimes people take long to answer 14:40:56 I just saw that it was added to gentoo's lisp overlay 14:41:04 and it looks good actually 15:00:38 darkmag [~vfalico@guest-docking-nat-1-099.ethz.ch] has joined #scheme 15:05:54 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:08 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:25:57 DrDuck [~duck@146.229.116.177] has joined #scheme 15:33:28 -!- edw [~user@c-71-225-69-168.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:40:48 -!- darkmag [~vfalico@guest-docking-nat-1-099.ethz.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:41:34 -!- copumpkin is now known as TacticalLongcat 15:42:00 -!- TacticalLongcat is now known as copumpkin 15:58:28 luz [~davids@186.205.48.47] has joined #scheme 15:58:48 reified [~reified@usr018.bb160-01.udk.im.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:59:26 -!- reified [~reified@usr018.bb160-01.udk.im.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 16:10:44 klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:15:02 alaricsp [~alaric@mukhadvaram.gurukuli.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:18:56 -!- easy4 [~easy4@c-174-60-36-128.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: easy4] 16:19:44 easy4 [~easy4@c-174-60-36-128.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:29:01 pavelludiq [~user@87.246.58.137] has joined #scheme 16:29:34 -!- pavelludiq [~user@87.246.58.137] has quit [Client Quit] 16:30:33 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #scheme 16:31:39 femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-241-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 16:37:42 -!- klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: klovett] 17:04:33 SirNick [~nick@c-67-160-151-16.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:14:27 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-252-121.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:14:28 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-252-121.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:18:14 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.65.0] has joined #scheme 17:26:03 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-178.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:26:22 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-178.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 17:26:59 I implemented quicksort in scheme last night 17:27:15 *jimster* flexes 17:28:25 what's a nice object system to look into? 17:41:32 klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:42:56 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:02 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:01:28 -!- alvatar is now known as awesome-O 18:01:44 -!- awesome-O is now known as awesome-O-3000 18:02:52 -!- DrDuck [~duck@146.229.116.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:11:57 -!- klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: klovett] 18:17:13 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-241-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:21:44 githogori [~githogori@65.197.200.12] has joined #scheme 18:23:04 Mr-Cat [59b2e62a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.178.230.42] has joined #scheme 18:24:07 edw [~user@c-76-99-21-9.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:24:48 femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-241-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 18:27:58 -!- ski [~slj@c-3810e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:29:33 -!- lbc_ [~lbc@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Quit: lbc_] 18:30:51 ski [~slj@c-3810e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:31:02 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 18:31:35 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:35:27 sepp2k [~sexy@p548CEACC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:40:52 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:42 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:42:30 -!- githogori [~githogori@65.197.200.12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:29 MarcusTullius [~user@226-227.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #scheme 18:46:13 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:38 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:49:46 -!- SirNick [~nick@c-67-160-151-16.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:53:20 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:55:17 -!- awesome-O-3000 [~alvatar@125.232.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:56:54 edw` [~user@c-76-99-21-9.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:57:19 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:36 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:57:56 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:24 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:58:28 -!- edw [~user@c-76-99-21-9.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:00:08 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@mukhadvaram.gurukuli.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:02:19 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:10 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:04:40 adadglgmut [~steve@cpe-65-25-14-11.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:04:55 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 19:05:42 edw`, sorry, Edwin's paredit is closest to paredit.el 19 or so. (Similarly, Edwin is like GNU Emacs 19, for an easy mnemonic!) 19:05:42 jimster: what variety of object system are you looking for? 19:05:58 edw`, it's also missing some things, as you observed, such as slurping and barfing. 19:06:21 Some day, perhaps I'll bring it up to whatever is the current version of paredit.el. 19:06:42 Speaking of which, I am working on preparing paredit.el version 22. 19:07:15 rotty, I haven't forgotten that you requested something about trc-testing, by the way, but I'm afraid I've forgotten exactly what it was, although I'm sure if you mention it I'll remember immediately. 19:07:58 Riastradh: it was having a return value indicating success or failure from run-test-suite 19:08:05 Oh, right. 19:08:43 Yes, I think I'll just rewrite trc-testing if I get a chance so that it doesn't use any dynamic binding nonsense, except for handling errors. I also want to be able to enter a debugger whenever a test fails, not just when it signals an unexpected condition. 19:09:18 -!- Leonidas [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:11:23 Leonidas [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 19:14:59 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.65.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:22:57 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 19:45:41 -!- MarcusTullius [~user@226-227.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:46:45 MarcusTullius [~user@226-227.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #scheme 19:47:21 -!- Mr-Cat [59b2e62a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.178.230.42] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:48:30 -!- davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:32 e-future [~e-future@a89-152-187-244.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 19:50:32 -!- e-future [~e-future@a89-152-187-244.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Changing host] 19:50:32 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #scheme 19:54:38 I'm hacking paredit 22. Any requests for it? Frustrations with paredit 21? Other feedback on paredit? 19:56:16 I've got a question that might be a frustration. 19:56:22 Yes? 19:57:22 Is there an easy way to comment a form? Right now I'm just killing the form, starting a comment, and then yanking it, but that only works for single-line forms. 19:57:33 C-M-SPC M-; 19:58:06 ...if you have enabled Transient Mark Mode. Otherwise, `C-M-SPC M-x comment-region RET'. 19:58:17 (Sometimes I forget that other users don't enable Transient Mark Mode.) 19:58:30 No, I don't use transient mark mode. 19:58:45 In fact, it greatly annoyed me that it became the default in Emacs 23. 19:59:30 The comment-region suggestion is my other workaround, but often times C-q ; C-n C-q ; (repeat as necessary) is faster. 20:00:24 So, this is my frustration: I'd like an easier way to comment a sexp. 20:00:46 Bind, say, C-M-; to `comment-region', perhaps? 20:03:03 Oh, and after I use `comment-region' I then need to indent the commented region appropriately. 20:03:17 I set `comment-style' to `indent'. 20:04:07 Ah, that works. 20:04:21 ijp [~Ian@host109-153-30-239.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:05:30 The process is still annoying. I'd love to have a single command that comments an expression using whatever the best expression-comment mechanism is in the source language. In practice, I can just use #+(or) or #; in Common Lisp and Scheme respectively, and be annoyed the few times I'm writing elisp. 20:07:09 alaricsp [~alaric@mukhadvaram.gurukuli.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:08:20 (It's not as if writing elisp is annoyance-free in other respects.) 20:08:36 I have deliberately avoided putting anything that is specific to Scheme or to Common Lisp in paredit. But it should be straightforward to bind, say, C-M-; to a command you define in your .emacs file that runs (cond ((eq major-mode 'scheme-mode) (insert "#;") (open-line)) ((eq major-mode 'lisp-mode) (insert "#+(or) ") (indent-sexp)) (t (mark-sexp) (comment-region))). 20:09:50 I tolerate the status quo because C-M-SPC M-; is fast enough for me. 20:10:24 That's a reasonable suggestion. That would also work well for other languages where (progn (mark-sexp) (comment-region)) is sensible. 20:12:07 I'm shocked - shocked - to find out that you're a user of transient-mark-mode. I would have expected you to eschew this new and fashionable heresy. 20:12:57 (Well, I suppose it's only newly default.) 20:13:43 I got tired of typing `C-x C-x C-x C-x' to remind myself what region I was about to kill. 20:15:25 *offby1* resisted tmm for a long time 20:15:32 Transient Mark Mode enables many other amenities that I'm fond of. E.g., repeated C-M-SPC. 20:15:38 I'll often set a mark, perform some editing commands that don't disturb the mark, and then kill-ring-save the region. Seeing the region while I'm editing distracts me during that process. 20:15:40 (or repeated M-SPC, &c.) 20:16:30 I'm leaving for a little while. I'll be back later to see whether there is any more paredit feedback to reflect in 22. 20:20:33 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:31:20 SirNick [~nick@c-67-160-151-16.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:33:26 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:34:32 Blkt [~user@net-93-151-225-193.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 20:35:30 schmir [~schmir@p54A909D7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:40:33 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-57-82-249-33-112.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:45:06 binni [~binni@85-220-87-209.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #scheme 20:48:21 -!- adadglgmut [~steve@cpe-65-25-14-11.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:53:21 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-36-82-251-59-13.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:54:06 cipher__ [~cipher@c-76-24-16-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:54:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-48.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:56:58 klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:57:50 -!- cipher [~cipher@c-76-24-16-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:03:14 edw`` [~user@c-76-99-21-9.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:04:43 -!- edw` [~user@c-76-99-21-9.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:05:20 kuribas [~user@94-226-136-133.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 21:08:32 offby1` [~user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 21:10:26 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:10:58 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:11:48 -!- mmc [~michal@cs190095.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:14:30 -!- klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: klovett] 21:15:02 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:15:58 -!- edw`` [~user@c-76-99-21-9.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:16:07 -!- kuribas [~user@94-226-136-133.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:16:37 Mr-Cat [59b2e62a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.178.230.42] has joined #scheme 21:25:08 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:26:05 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 21:27:20 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 21:30:43 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #scheme 21:34:50 Hi. I've been thinking of module systems in scheme and similar languages (e.g. erlang can be called a similar language) vs. object-oriented languages. Module in scheme is quite similar to an OO class: both of them incapsulate logic and data. Importing modules is similar to aggregation with automatic delegation (well, or maybe multiple inheritance) <...> 21:36:24 Most modules seem to be similar to singletons of classes with parameterless constructors. But if to proceed with module-class analogy, there could exist modules with constructors having parameters. And we could instantiate modules and then bind them to variables. A similar mechanism is implemented in erlang (http://www.trapexit.org/Parameterized_Modules). 21:36:37 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:38 So the question is <...> 21:36:46 racket has those, they are called units 21:38:06 jonrafkind: Aha, thanks, you've answered my question. So, in racket only? 21:38:31 i dont know if other schemes have it 21:39:49 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:40:30 E.g. a unit-like mechanism could be used to interface scheme to OO-languages, like java or c#. 21:41:13 you mean pass values between java<->scheme ? 21:41:24 or just try to unify some part of the semantics? 21:42:43 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e0aadb6.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 21:45:09 To unify semantics. E.g. r5rs does not have a notion of class. An additional entity is needed to represent it. 21:45:38 Whose notion of class? 21:46:29 Java's notion of class for example 21:47:04 Why is an additional entity needed to represent that in Scheme? 21:47:48 The only thing that comes to mind as being missing in the R5RS from this perspective is a means of defining new disjoint types, but I'd be surprised if you could find an implementation of the R5RS that lacks this. 21:48:04 jonrafkind: How does racket do classes? macros on top of macros? 21:48:14 yea 21:49:57 adadglgmut [~steve@cpe-65-25-14-11.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:53:37 chandler: Well, I was just thinking about a possible (potentially implementable) mapping betweent the concepts in scheme and a mainstream OO-language like java. One possibility is to map java classes to r6rs-like record types (probably extended in appropriate way - I didn't use them much). Then modules map to java packages or something like this. <...> 21:55:05 In my limited experience, such mappings look easy on paper than some language feature somewhere throws a big fat spanner in the works. 21:55:22 Classes are useful to make dispatch efficient. 21:57:12 To be precise, `classes' in the sense of Haskell's type classes, C++'s vtables, and whatever the analogous concept is called in Java. 21:57:36 That can be isolated reasonably well from the issue of representation, though, which is what the concept Common Lisp calls `class' is used for. 21:57:57 Foreign-function interfaces tend to be all nice and automatic for simple cases (passing integers and strings about), but usually get a bit more 'manual' when you get into more esoteric things. 21:57:58 I should start over. 21:58:36 There are two very different concepts both called `class', say Haskell class and CL class. Both are useful for making behaviour dispatch efficient, in different ways. 21:59:22 on the subject, if I want to write fmap in racket, is there already a procedure that returns a type identity for arbitrary objects? 21:59:23 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-38.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 21:59:25 Haskell classes have to do with intended behaviour; CL classes have to do with intrinsic behaviour. What was the term KMP used for these two, in his discussion on EQUAL and COPY? 22:01:23 CL classes fit better into a dynamically typed language, but it is frustrating to specify the semantics in a way that isn't tied to many implementation details and choices that one might prefer one's language to be independent of. 22:02:29 Haskell classes fit better into a statically typed language, because the extra arguments one must pass around are implied by the static types and need not be written explicitly. 22:03:12 So in this respect Scheme is stuck between a rock and a hard place: nobody wants the language to specify those implementation details, but it's tedious to pass the extra arguments around explicitly. 22:04:26 -!- choas [~lars@p5792CF5C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:04:49 -!- megajosh2 [~megajosh2@pool-96-241-38-130.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:05:08 Oh well. 22:05:14 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A909D7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:18 *Riastradh* steps off his soapbox. 22:05:24 Continue, please. Don't mind me. 22:06:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-38.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:06:43 But then I've recalled of erlang (being a nice language after all) nice module system and their OO-like parameterized modules and thought that such a concept is more or less schemish. Erlang and scheme are alike in a sense that both try to keep the things simple. E.g. erlang allows a very limited notion of a user-defined type (they're just giving names to tuples and their components), so everything spins around modules and functions. 22:07:23 Erlang doesn't really have disjoint types. 22:07:47 yup 22:07:56 just tuples 22:07:59 Also, Erlang has a global module namespace. 22:09:44 That makes certain forms of metalinguistic abstraction frustrating. 22:10:03 Riastradh: I'm not sure what do you mean by 'global module namespace' 22:10:14 SirNick_ [~nick@c-67-160-151-16.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:10:47 That is, the semantics of the object-program depends on how the meta-program was written, because there is a global map from atoms to modules and from atom/atom/arity triples to function bindings that the bifs respect. 22:11:23 So you can't really effectively exploit the bifs in order for a meta-program to interpret an object-program. 22:12:19 -!- SirNick [~nick@c-67-160-151-16.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:14:13 I should clarify: the semantics of the object-program depends on how the meta-program was written, if the meta-program interprets the object-program using most bifs rather than emulating those bifs. 22:19:45 Riastradh: Sorry. Still don't get what's wrong in having atom -> module mapping in erlang. Isn't it quite similar to symbol -> module mapping in scheme? 22:19:58 What symbol -> module mapping in Scheme? 22:23:26 Library name I mean. Like "rnrs base" in (import (rnrs base)) 22:24:45 klovett [~klovett@c-67-180-97-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:24:54 Oh, you mean in the R6RS. I don't know the extent to which the R6RS is broken -- I'm talking about real Scheme systems, not the R6RS. 22:27:54 As far as I know, though, the R6RS requires you to explicitly specify when you want the system to reify a program's libraries for it. 22:28:56 *somnium* didn't realize that R6RS wasn't a real scheme system 22:29:05 Does anybody actually use it? 22:29:30 morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #scheme 22:29:36 So as long as you don't ask for the ENVIRONMENT procedure, you don't need to worry about an object-program `seeing' the meta-program, even if you allow the object-program to see the standard APPLY procedure, for instance. By contrast, in Erlang, if you give spawn/2 to an object-program as is, it can `see' the meta-program's modules and functions. 22:30:17 -!- SirNick_ [~nick@c-67-160-151-16.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:30:34 Riastradh. Aha. Now I think I got your idea 22:32:06 insofar as I 'actually use' scheme, I only use R6RS implementations, though I don't 'actually use' scheme that often 22:32:24 This has consequences far beyond simply handing spawn/2 or APPLY to the object-program -- if you want the object-program not to see the meta-program, you must prevent the object system from getting *anything* that uses spawn/2 / APPLY. 22:32:38 This matters in order to make the semantics of the object-program independent of how the meta-program was written. 22:33:12 In Erlang, metalinguistic abstraction is not very popular, so most Erlang programmers don't encounter this. 22:34:24 However, in Common Lisp, metalinguistic abstraction happens all over the place, which makes Common Lisp systems practically impossible to build or analyze reliably. (I mean `build' here mostly in the sense of `compile'.) 22:35:20 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@95-24-5-199.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:37:21 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-241-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:39:34 Riastradh: So, when you say that "an object program can see a meta program via spawn/2" - you mean that the object-program sees the same modules as the meta-program and the modules of the meta-program itself, and there's no way in a meta-program to prepare a "fake view" of existing modules and their interface for the object program? 22:39:57 It can -- it's just a lot of trouble to do that, because you need to make such a fake view for *everything* you let the object-program see. 22:40:19 -!- pygospa [~pygospa@g230084020.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:40:53 For example, if I wrote a really nifty library that you want to let your object-programs use, and my library calls spawn/2, you have to present a fake view of my library. But my library might be very complicated, and it might not be clear that it even calls spawn/2, or what arguments it passes to spawn/2, because it might use a library that chandler wrote, and it might call list_to_atom with some horribly constructed list. 22:41:25 spawn/2 is not the only leaky bif, though; there are many. 22:41:49 And that's the problem: much of Erlang relies on global databases. 22:42:32 pygospa [~pygospa@g227014084.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 22:42:34 This all reminds me of a "dependency injection" buzzw^W pattern in OOP... 22:42:41 -!- morphir [~morphir@84-52-234.12.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:43:49 So, a "perfect" language should allow a meta-program to "inject" the proper interface into the object-program? 22:44:38 Generally, programs should avoid being reflective unless they have a *very* good reason to be so. 22:45:07 Riastradh: Is there a system that provides such a "fake view of the world" mechanism so that I can give it a try? 22:45:11 I suspect in 50 years people will look at currently fashionable OO concepts similar to the way we look at 17th century medicine now 22:45:25 Sorry, that language is a trifle vague. 22:45:41 reified [~reified@usr018.bb160-01.udk.im.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 22:45:45 Generally, programs should avoid reflecting on their lexical environments unless there is a very good reason to do so. 22:45:57 Hi, reified. What an appropriate name to enter our discussion. 22:46:05 :) 22:47:26 Riastradh: A "trifle vague"? 22:47:50 "Not very clear" 22:47:54 I meant that `programs should avoid being reflective' is vague, and not what I wanted to say. 22:50:14 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 22:50:17 -!- offby1 [~user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:50:17 offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 22:50:39 My mind is split between three different activities right now, so I am probably not speaking very clearly about abstract concepts such as program reflection. 22:50:54 Riastradh: Maybe that's not what you wanted to say, but I thought of "constraining the view of the outside world" and of haskell which does it with its monads 22:52:40 Well, it's 3 am here and I probably don't get along well with the abstract concepts at this time of day 22:56:25 But in a dynamically typed language "constraining the view of the outside world" could mean "constraining the contents of the environment", and the list of visible and usable modules could be considered to be the part of the enironment 22:58:22 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@mukhadvaram.gurukuli.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:47 sepp2k_ [~sexy@p548CF216.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:01:48 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-252-121.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:01:53 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-252-121.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:04:14 -!- sepp2k [~sexy@p548CEACC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:05:28 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:07:34 somnium: Well, OOP as I see it is (just like like scheme) about a simple and clean (as simple and clean as java or c# 1 and maybe 2) being powerful 23:09:38 -!- ski [~slj@c-3810e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:10:27 I suppose I don't see java or c# as being particularly simple or clean 23:11:36 I am impressed with f# though, if only it had better support on mono 23:12:03 davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:16:15 Well, today's C# 4.0 is certainly a bizarre manifestation. But java (maybe except its strange implementation of generics) seems to me as an example of reasonably simple laguage 23:22:45 But sometimes I start to think that a typed language can't be simple or at least it can't end up being simple after more or less considerable time of development. If we want types - we'll ask for paramterized types and polymorphism in time. Then we'll ask for higher-order polymorphism, co/contra-variance and so on. The type system being turing complete won't make us stop asking for extra stuff piled onto it. 23:23:02 Mr-Cat: whenever I look at a javadoc and see AbstractFactory_0...Factory_n amongst many other classes, my definition of simplicity is violated 23:24:44 -!- binni [~binni@85-220-87-209.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:26:28 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-192.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:27:15 OO patterns (even being a good intent) of course can be overused (for evil). In scheme you may also overwhelm your colleagues with nacros expading into macros exapanding into macros expanding into ... 23:27:25 are there any type constructs the java/C# family that aren't better handled (ie. safer, less boilerplate) by any member of the ML family? 23:30:02 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-178.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:30:34 well, well designed macros typically present a small and well-defined mini language for a particular problem, so unless your colleagues need to debug the implementation, they seem preferable to FactoryFactoryFactorys, but thats just me 23:31:04 somnium: Sorry, what do you mean by "type construct"? 23:33:54 classes/generics/interfaces 23:37:07 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:37:59 New paredit 22 beta is up at . 23:41:46 The output of `darcs changes' is at . 23:43:43 -!- MarcusTullius [~user@226-227.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:44:32 Well, this is the case where I'm not sure of what is right and what is wrong. On one hand I believe that one does not need a highly feature-rich language to build safe and boilerplate-free programs and I often try (and often fail, heh) to design programs in such a way. On the other hand I cannot prove this belief and moreover there are many examples where "feature-poor" languages rely on code generation, hairy macros (like C's #define 23:48:48 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 23:49:48 Riastradh: do you send updates to ELPA? 23:50:41 What's ELPA? 23:50:48 (I guess not.) 23:50:53 :) 23:51:17 Emacs Lisp Package Archive, I think it's an official part of Emacs trunk 23:51:26 they still have version 20 23:51:51 I see. I think Phil Hagelberg might have put it there. 23:52:04 (I don't remember what his nickname on IRC is, if he has one.) 23:52:24 ah, probably, he made some customizations for working with c-family languages too 23:52:33 technomancy, he's usually in #clojure 23:52:33 technomancy, that's it. 23:52:48 and #emacs 23:57:06 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-151-225-193.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbound t please] 23:58:17 Mr-Cat: have you worked with DSLs?