00:04:58 first round of final call to votes 00:05:38 So now is the time to pack in lots more issues? 00:06:03 you can add issues at any time 00:06:26 i'll finalize things in batches 00:07:18 Okay. 00:07:46 i'll be sending out an email later today with details 00:13:51 Good. We need at least one more voter to get a majority of voters, which I think is an important thing. 00:14:21 the number of voters is irrelevant 00:14:22 (that is, votes from a majority of the committee, as distinct from *how* they vote) 00:14:48 there could be 100 voters, and the only option that gets 2 vote could win the preferential vote 00:15:11 total percentage doesn't even factor into it 00:17:29 Sure. But if less than 50% of the committee can be bothered to vote, we don't have much of a committee. I think the SC will find such votes less than convincing. 00:17:46 -!- foose [79d1eb29@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.209.235.41] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:17:55 oh, people who don't vote in the next round are out of the committee, that will be in the announcement 00:18:19 they'll get a month to vote, and can ask for an extension if they want, but if they don't make the effort they're out 00:18:46 A little tricky. You can ask the SC to remove them, but you can't just do it yourself; you didn't appoint them. 00:19:15 (A majority could vote them out, by parliamentary law, but you don't *have* a majority voting.) 00:19:28 i already discussed it with the SC 00:19:37 Oh, okay. I should do the same. 00:20:32 and it's not very controversial, i'm not even asking for a majority - anyone who _doesn't_ want to be out just has to vote 00:21:31 Well, you have 8/17 voters now. 00:21:32 damnit, my kitten hates it when i use my computer :( 00:21:46 *jcowan* holds that cats belong on the floor. 00:22:19 *jcowan* enforces this view with a plant sprayer when he can get away with it. 00:26:26 I have come to the conclusion that WG2 should not worry very much about the names of procedures/syntax in WG2 modules, since they are easily remapped locally, or about order of arguments or such, which is easily remapped with a shim module. 00:26:53 What matters is that the API provide the correct functionality. 00:27:05 brb 00:27:27 There is a merit to consistent, predictable names, jcowan. The merit is that it reduces the need to scan linearly through documentation to emulate a mapping from concepts to names. 00:28:32 Example: If I want the linear-update variant of APPEND, how do I find that? In Common Lisp, either I know it's NCONC, or I linearly scan through the parts of the HyperSpec related to lists. In Scheme, it's probably APPEND!. 00:29:24 Indeed. 00:29:48 However, with 53 modules on the WG2 work queue at present (and several more that are evenly split between WG2 and a new WG), such detail work is going to be impracticable. 00:30:02 (out of 193 modules in the original proposal) 00:30:26 Fairly wholesale adoption of existing material is going to be required. 00:31:30 Either that, or a good many people are going to have to vote against things: currently people are only voting for things, despite my warnings. 00:39:05 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-33-181.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:41:13 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:41:21 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 00:53:26 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:57:55 Do you think it would be excessive to announce that I'm closing the preliminary WG2 vote on Friday? That would be six weeks from the original announcement. 01:00:04 Rakko [~rakko@71-90-73-192.dhcp.ftbg.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 01:05:20 -!- tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: tltstc] 01:05:21 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 01:05:42 The vote on the modules? 01:06:39 Yes. 01:07:02 I'd say just leave it open, but start working on the list that exists now. 01:07:41 I can't do that. In principle, at least, a bunch of people might vote against one of them. (So far only a single negative vote has been cast, but I'm going to emphasize again their importance.) 01:12:09 -!- Nshag [~none@AClermont-Ferrand-551-1-64-146.w86-206.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 01:12:36 black_13 [~black_13@216-188-252-243.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:12:41 I cast a few negative votes. 01:12:47 kids 01:12:55 Nshag [~none@AClermont-Ferrand-551-1-64-146.w86-206.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 01:13:04 -!- Nshag [~none@AClermont-Ferrand-551-1-64-146.w86-206.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 01:13:14 is this the apropriate place to ask about drracket? 01:15:30 I think it's *an* appropriate place, although I believe they have a #racket too. 01:16:28 oh there is thanks 01:17:02 No problem 01:17:58 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:19:29 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 01:20:11 so what is the deal with lambda? 01:20:19 or what does lambda do for me 01:20:35 (i-am-newbie) 01:22:29 or a more concrete question how i set a breakpoint in drracket 01:22:48 Lambda creates a procedure without a name. 01:23:17 You never *have* to use it, but it gets annoying to name every procedure and define it separately. 01:23:32 DrDuck2 [~duck@146.229.118.126] has joined #scheme 01:26:43 i just started reading the sicp book 01:27:28 ages ago i had been introduced to scheme and lisp and thought it a toy language (i might have been wrong) 01:28:31 can lambda be use to dynamicall create a function based on what happens in a procedure? 01:30:24 -!- DrDuck2 [~duck@146.229.118.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:33:29 yes 01:34:56 Yes and no. Unless you use "eval", you can't manufacture function *bodies* on the fly, but you can and do manufacture function *objects* on the fly. 01:35:27 wingo [~wingo@247.Red-79-156-65.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:37:01 jcowan, is that what you just said in the sicp book? 01:37:15 Surely, if not in those words. 01:37:51 my reson for askin is i work for a company that makes a program that talks to electonic equipment 01:38:00 the software is c++ and its terrible 01:38:52 that is c++ just not suited for the problem but i dont know what is 01:40:13 i had seen how languages like python lua or the like are embedded into a game why not something similar 01:43:33 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:43:50 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:47:14 adadglgmut [~steve@cpe-65-25-14-11.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:47:42 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Restarting Emacs...] 01:48:12 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 01:48:53 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 01:55:08 -!- wingo [~wingo@247.Red-79-156-65.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:55:27 somnium [~user@adsl-65-185-34.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 01:55:27 what is an "environment" 01:55:42 somnium, kopenicus? 01:55:57 nil 01:56:35 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:57:07 -!- saccade [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THIRTY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:02:02 saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-82-90.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 02:03:15 The context in which variables are defined and bound to their values. 02:03:23 kepler 02:04:56 With Guile, how can I get a list of all filenames what match a given pattern? 02:07:22 so does scheme have an "object" 02:08:04 i am looking at http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/sicp/book/node52.html and it the author referrs to "independent objects" 02:09:34 An "object" in the Scheme context is any value whatsoever: a boolean, number, list, vector, procedure, or what have you. 02:11:51 jcowan: Unicode case-folding isn't trivial. 02:12:35 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 02:12:38 It takes a small table (~ 1000 entries) and a tiny bit of code for handling the small number of non-trivial cases. 02:13:00 I know, I wrote the Chicken implementation. 02:13:01 That's for both case-folding and case-mapping. 02:13:17 Ah. Why do you bring this up? 02:15:00 Looking at arcfide's case-sensitivity proposal, he requires Unicode case-folding when Unicode is supported. 02:15:03 black_13: Scheme also has OOP something like you would find in other languages, through the SOS component 02:15:45 Unicode is easy to support (Chibi already does, mostly), but the full case folding would be a huge burden. 02:16:03 i will look that up 02:16:03 Well, if you look at UnicodeCowan, you'll see that I require it too, but I don't go with Unicode/non-Unicode; rather I allow implementations to provide whatever subset of Unicode they want, as long as it's a superset of ASCII. 02:16:28 (Proper or improper) 02:17:29 Right, but I'd like to be able to provide Unicode without providing full Unicode case-folding. 02:17:34 At least in the core. 02:18:44 Hmm. Well, as things are going, case-folding will not be in the WG1 core. 02:19:02 (although currently chibi doesn't even have ASCII case-folding) 02:24:30 -!- saccade [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-82-90.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:24:32 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:28:03 -!- black_13 [~black_13@216-188-252-243.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:33:19 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 02:34:49 I don't even want it in the I/O modules, which will always be loaded in the repl. 02:39:43 -!- timj__ [~timj@e176202189.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:40:33 Blkt` [~user@net-93-146-149-37.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 02:43:40 -!- Blkt [~user@net-188-152-128-146.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:47:51 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Quit: Kerrick] 02:48:16 Well, UnicodeCowan doesn't require you to support full Unicode identifiers. 02:50:58 I'm talking about the case-folding setting on ports. 02:51:07 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has quit [Quit:  In our sky there is no limits, and masters we have none; heavy metal is the only one! ] 02:52:26 Oh, that doesn't specify what case-folding is - I guess that defaults to UnicodeCowan. 02:52:38 Not only that, but it applies only to symbols, not to general text. 02:53:18 timj__ [~timj@e176192032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:28 But UnicodeCowan would require Chibi to apply the full Unicode folding to symbols. 02:53:43 Unless Chibi were compiled in ASCII mode. 02:54:05 You can make a rule saying "only ASCII in symbols" even though you support full Unicode elsewhere. 02:56:17 -!- xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-gtycnrrwidrpghrf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:57:12 xwl_ [~user@nat/nokia/x-buzuihzeollwkpje] has joined #scheme 02:57:15 Hmm. UnicodeCowan #13-#14 speak of identifiers; I'll change that to symbols. 03:00:04 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:01:41 -!- Blkt` [~user@net-93-146-149-37.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:11 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:03:21 UnicodeCowan says you have to support escape sequences in symbols, but you can leave them as-is. 03:03:51 This may be a dumb question, but why can't you construct functions without using eval? 03:04:17 Of course you can. Evaluate (lambda () 0). That program didn't use EVAL, but it constructed a procedure. 03:04:45 It constructed a procedure *object*, but not a procedure *text*. That was my point. 03:05:13 Yeah 03:05:13 But I *want* Unicode symbols :) 03:05:38 So just do ASCII+Japanese. No case folding. :-) 03:05:46 I would think Lisp-like languages would be in favor of constructing function bodies piece by piece, unless there's a darn good reason. 03:06:52 Do you mean at READ-time, at compile time, or at runtime? 03:07:09 Well, you can use LAMBDA, Rakko, or you can use EVAL. 03:07:47 foof: I added this to UnicodeCowan: The `symbol->string` procedure may return the actual character or the escape sequence at the implementation's option, but any leading zeros must be removed from the escape sequence. 03:07:49 Sound good? 03:08:05 At runtime, I mean. 03:08:46 Function bodies aren't constructed at runtime, except by using EVAL, which essentially puts you back at compile time. 03:09:38 jcowan: sounds reasonable, but that's orthogonal to case folding 03:10:25 you wrote figlet?? 03:10:30 Rakko: indeed 03:10:33 foof: True 03:10:34 memories 03:10:55 Or rather, I Unicode-ified figlet. I didn't write the engine, and never even figured out how it worked. 03:10:58 ah 03:11:09 A Unicode figlet sounds nice 03:11:14 I also provided a lot of fonts. 03:11:24 (mostly converted X Windows bitmap fonts) 03:11:39 figlet 2.1 and later, I think. 03:14:15 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:57 foof: I just wrote TrivialUnicodeModule to put all the case-mapping/case-folding/normalization stuff in a module. Subset of (rnrs unicode 6). 03:15:44 NO! No specific string normalizations! 03:16:11 That's an encoding issue, and should if anything be set on ports. 03:16:23 WG1 has voted them in. 03:16:23 oh, great, there's a tropical storm Hermione, which no one knows how to pronounce 03:16:30 her-MY-on-ee 03:16:41 Not HP fans, obviously 03:16:45 I thought everyone has known how to pronounce it since a certain Mrs Rowling popularized it so. 03:16:48 what is this 'voting' you guys speak of? 03:16:50 WG1 hasn't finalized anything yet. 03:17:04 Rakko, a lot of Scheme-related things are going on the ballot all over the US this November. 03:17:10 You can have a single procedure `string-normalize' which returns the string in the implementations preferred normal form. 03:17:10 Well, unless someone else votes. But the voting is certainly running tha tway. 03:17:33 Why should the implementation prefer one? 03:17:35 Rakko: "a insidious invention of the Greco-Roman Industrial Complex." - King Xerxes Of Persia 03:17:58 jcowan: Because the implementation may only *have* one. 03:18:21 Under what body's auspices, Riastradh ? 03:18:32 Normalization sucks. It would be awesome if _all_ strings were automatically normalized for you in memory, so the programmer doesn't ever have to worry about it. 03:18:46 Then `string-normalize' is the identity function. 03:19:14 You might persuade me for C vs. D, but not for K vs. no K. Those make a semantic difference. 03:19:25 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:19:28 I think before you discuss normalization, you should have a reasonably large body of existing programs that have to deal with normalization. 03:19:44 Riastradh: most software ignores it, and is therefore buggy 03:20:26 Most Unicode data is NFC, except on the Mac 03:20:38 OK, but what are the operations the software needs in order not to be buggy? This is not to ask `what operations might one conceive to do normalization?' but `what do real programs actually need to do here?'. 03:23:04 Real programs that care about character identity (other than in the ASCII repertoire, where normalization is the identity) should either normalize their input or arrange for it to already be normalized and check that it is. 03:23:16 Either form C or form D will do; form C is strongly preferred on the web. 03:23:22 jcowan: Would you then provide normalization for the K vs. no K option only? How? 03:23:38 (compatibility-fold string) => string, I suppose. 03:24:05 Probably with a better name. 03:24:54 I don't actually know if that commutes with C and D in all cases, but I think it does. 03:25:47 Right, but if the proper behavior were specified for programs which care about character identity, a programming language could do it automatically. 03:26:24 If, however, you provide specific normalization operations at the string level (instead of the port level), you preclude any such language. 03:26:41 I don't think the programming language should do anything automatically if there is not clear evidence from a broad body of *particular* programs that you can cite which either (a) consistently perform this operation in a clear, regular pattern conforming to what the programming language would do automatically, or (b) is broken precisely because it fails to do so. 03:27:27 (Fixing the subject/predicate plural agreement in (b) is left as an exercise for the reader.) 03:27:32 Riastradh: For filenames, database keys, or any text shared between systems, the normal form matters. 03:28:30 Great -- but which normal form? If normal from Frobblethorpe matters for the Oxiborick database, then the program should say `I want the Frobblethorpe normalization, please'; it shouldn't be the responsibility of the programming language to guess that. 03:29:00 For file contents it would be nice if everyone agreed on one normal form, but without that we need a way to construct the appropriate bytes - not necessarily as strings in memory. 03:29:38 (I don't know whether I'm not being clear here, by the way, but I am actually looking for actual, real, physical, existing, human-written, specific examples of programs -- not general properties that programs might hypothetically satisfy.) 03:30:53 jcowan: What is http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/UnicodeCowan ? I don't see anything in it telling what you have to do with it. Did you author it? Is it part of a standard, or a proposed part of one? 03:30:59 Riastradh: I'm only talking about in-memory strings. So you have an online game, and two players from different systems send you strings referring to the same resource. You want to normalize those strings to some (arbitrary) internal normal form. 03:31:15 Rakko: I wrote it: by WG1 convention, a proposer appends his name. 03:31:27 WG1 = Working Group 1? 03:31:41 Yes, for the revision of Scheme. 03:31:56 OK, so the RnRS people? 03:32:02 R7RS, yes. 03:32:40 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:32:42 Again, I'm not even sure if automatic normalization of all strings is good, but I'm not interested in making the entire idea impossible in WG1. 03:33:04 foof, what online game are you talking about? Can I see the source code? What bugs has it had regarding normalization? 03:34:21 Riastradh: This is hypothetical. If you really want real code I'll write a MUD this evening that exhibits a real problem which auto-normalization would solve. 03:35:24 No, I don't want hypothetical programs or programs that you write to illustrate a point. I'm looking for *existing* programs that were written to solve a problem other than illustrating a point about normalization, and which, in the course of solving that problem, encountered a subproblem related to normalization. 03:35:29 As a simpler example, any system with any text search feature needs to normalize. 03:35:56 Riastradh: I mean a real MUD that I actually want to write and haven't had time to, that I know will have the problem. 03:37:17 The software at my current employer, and former employer, both have normalization issues which I'm afraid I can't share with you. 03:37:25 ... 03:37:50 I mean, I can't show you the actual code. The problem is in text search. 03:38:54 The text they search with may, depending on their system, not be in the same normal form as what you'd stored on your server. 03:39:17 A raw codepoint comparison will then fail to match. 03:39:55 So what you do is normalize both first, then compare (or use a fancy normalization-insensitive comparator). 03:40:09 OK. So I'm going to mmap the file into memory, and then start searching through it using a WG1 string which has been normalized to the Wg1 normal form. Will that work? 03:40:59 If the file was written with the WG1 normal form, yes, and in fact taht's probably the case if it was mmaped. 03:41:23 The result of mmaping would be a blob, not a string. 03:41:26 Otherwise, you need to either know a priori what normal form the file is in, or convert it. 03:41:35 No, I wrote it with a C++ program, foof, which was buggy and used the wrong normal form. 03:41:54 And then you convert the string to an appropriately normalized byte-vector for comparison. 03:42:28 As jcowan says, mmaping doesn't result in a string. 03:42:58 I'm well aware of the need for handling different normalization forms at the binary level (which is why it's a port property). 03:43:50 But normalizing works at the character level. And I'd be quite opposed to any "WG1 normalization"; at most, there might be an implementation-specific normalization, and it could be the identity normalization. 03:44:29 C vs. D, Riastradh, is essentially a time vs. space tradeoff: it's more expensive to normalize to C, and you need slightly larger tables, but the result is more compact. 03:44:43 I said from the beginning it was implementation specific and could be the identity function. 03:44:46 At least, typically more compact. 03:45:14 So if I want to have well-normalized text but the Scheme that makes sense for me does identity normalization, I am not to have a normalization function available? 03:46:16 jcowan: Sorry, to clarify it can only be the identity if the Scheme auto-normalizes. 03:46:21 By the way, is there a reference implementation of any of these Unicodey proposals, together with a body of example programs that practically solve problems that existing programs fail to solve? 03:47:06 Riastradh: You're arguing the same thing I am - standardization is premature. 03:47:34 However, it's useful and reasonable to have a single `string-normalize' procedure. 03:47:54 Specific normal forms, on the other hand, preclude some interesting implementation approaches. 03:48:13 Riastradh: Every R6RS implementation is already conformant. 03:48:27 No, I don't know whether it's premature. It may be that if you look at the evidence, you will find it abundantly clear that there is only one API that any real program actually needs or uses. 03:48:29 (To UnicodeCowan and TrivialUnicodeModule, not to what foof is proposing.) 03:49:07 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:49:07 I am arguing that everybody is providing design and nobody is providing evidence. 03:49:38 foof: I don't follow you. 03:49:58 astronaut architecture :) 03:50:09 Well, there are a lot of programs that use ICU (the dominant Unicode library in C/C++ and Java). I can't say whether they use normalization as such. 03:53:34 foof: So you want to package normalization with character I/O, and also make sure that all string constructors normalize also, string-concat in particular? 03:53:37 Riastradh: I've been programming Unicode and dealing with normalization for 10 years. 03:54:23 The code I'm working on right now uses ICU normalization to a single, arbitrary internal normalization. 03:54:54 You mean it layers an extra normalization phase on top of C or D? 03:57:25 Oh wait... it doesn't look like that's being used... 03:57:46 (japanese doesn't actually have C/D issues) 03:57:53 True. 03:58:07 I just can't see imposing all that overhead on every string constructor. 03:59:16 Once all strings in memory are normalized it's easy to keep them that way. The cost is in I/O. 03:59:29 ... and mutation. This works better with immutable strings. 03:59:53 Yes, mutation is even worse, as it can have non-local effects. But the same is true of concatenating immutable strings. 04:00:15 It's local to the point of concatenation. 04:00:33 It does require handling, but I think it could be done efficiently. 04:00:39 That can reach arbitrarily far, as when the first string ends with a base and the second string begins with an arbitrary number of diacritics. 04:01:02 A pathological case. 04:01:29 Like I said, maybe not a good idea, but why make it impossible? 04:01:41 I like making bad ideas impossible, personally. 04:01:53 Who says it's a bad idea? 04:01:58 If you like it, you could have a module that rebinds all the necessary string operators. 04:02:52 Lot's of really nice ideas that we take for granted sounded bad at first. 04:03:40 No, it can't be done in a module because you need the guarantee that all strings are already normalized. 04:03:56 You could create a new datatype that wraps a normalized string though. 04:05:18 True. 04:05:28 Having modules and records to take for granted makes a *lot* of things possible. 04:07:00 ADTs in r7rs? 04:08:30 I think it's a certainty, though they are not technically required. 04:08:42 Of course, how "abstract" they are is a question. 04:08:59 Arrgh. Iset is not compiling properly on Cygwin, so I can't install utf8. 04:12:07 tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:14:13 -!- nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:16:45 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 04:18:21 Riastradh: Google doesn't return the same results when you search for männer (form C) as for manner (form D). That's bogus, as they are canonically equivalent. 04:19:54 -!- wgd [~will@76-205-0-91.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:20:26 So there is your particular-program with a normalization-related bug. 04:20:38 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:20:53 wgd [~will@76-205-0-91.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:22:45 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:24:37 black_13 [black_13@adsl-99-73-16-125.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:24:56 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:43:42 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:52:26 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@117.196.146.154] has joined #scheme 05:00:14 -!- black_13 [black_13@adsl-99-73-16-125.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:00:28 jcowan: I disagree that your exception proposal isn't low-level. It requires me to type out `call-with-current-continuation' every time I use it. 05:02:05 The voting is running in favor of the call/cc synonym. 05:02:21 (Make a trivial point, get a trivial response) 05:03:37 What's your view on let-values and let*-values, btw? 05:03:39 It's not a trivial point. I absolutely would never use your proposal directly, and doubt most people would want to either. 05:05:16 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:41 They're fine in a module. 05:06:16 I would personally prefer call-with-values and values be relegated to a module, and for consistency nothing in WG1 would return MV. 05:06:42 I'm sure I'll lose that fight so I won't bother, though I may write up my complaint for the record. 05:07:00 Nothing in R5RS returns MV, at any rate. 05:20:21 -!- nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:20:32 I'm okay with putting all four in a module too. I don't think I have proposed anything that returns one. 05:20:59 I think there's been mention of a few things, but nothing finalized yet. 05:22:30 *jcowan* adds a multiple-values module ticket to the other module tickets he has just added. 05:23:18 It occurs to me that a SRFI-9-style record system can be implemented purely syntactically (exporting a record type just means exporting the constructor, predicate, accessors, and mutators). 05:24:28 Yes, SRFI-9 is the lowest common denominator. Many people prefer other approaches, but no one actually refuses to use SRFI-9, which is why it's winning the vote. 05:24:42 BUt with multiple inheritance it cannot, because there is no way to know how the supertype is bound, unless we add record-types as a new kind of thing besides identifiers and syntax keywords. 05:24:50 We'd all rather have SRFI-9 than nothing. 05:25:13 IIRC you think multiple inheritance is essential, or do I have you confused with someone else. 05:26:04 If the type of binding of the record descriptor in SRFI-9 is left unspecified (a grey area in the current SRFI-9 spec), then it could be syntax, and that could be used to provide both single and multiple inheritence purely syntactically. 05:26:21 How? 05:26:49 Once the supertype predicate has been expanded into a procedure, how can that procedure be redefined composably when the subtype is defined, without leaving a trace at runtime? 05:26:54 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:26:59 If the rtd is a macro that accepts a CPS API to pass info about the record such as its parent rtd and slots. 05:27:43 Ah. But that requires low-level macros, then, which WG1 does not. 05:27:46 -!- nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:28:30 No, syntax-rules suffices in this case with CPS-style expansion. 05:28:52 Okay, I'll take your word for it. 05:30:42 But I only want single inheritence anyway. 05:31:19 ... which I mostly implemented on the train the other day, I'll check it in this evening. 05:32:22 Just got mail from BH, says he's been busy but will be voting on time. 05:33:16 I've been counting on him to vote no to almost everything :) 05:37:31 I'm sorry, I meant to refer to single inheritance, not multiple inheritance. 05:37:39 SRFI-9 has no inheritance. 05:40:22 I'm happy with just SRFI-9 in WG1. I'd accept arguments for a more easily extensible syntax. 05:40:43 i.e. I think Aaron's proposal is fine too. 05:41:50 Which doesn give single inheritence. 05:42:23 does 05:53:54 Hmmm... actualy, RecordsArcfide is kind of inconsistent. Partially bizarre positional arguments, partially named, and no way to specify a constructor with a different set or order of fields. 05:56:15 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 05:58:31 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@117.196.146.154] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:08:14 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:08:55 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 06:09:40 Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 06:12:19 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:17:31 DaDa` [~user@20.94.63.81.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #scheme 06:23:47 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:26:00 I just found a counterexample to my conjecture that compatibility decomp commutes with NFC/NFD. 06:26:28 Consider wide A followed by combining acute. In NFC/D that remains unchanged, but in NFKC it becomes A WITH ACUTE. 06:28:03 NFD counterexamples are more artificial, but they exist. 06:29:39 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:35:46 -!- rotty_ is now known as rotty 06:36:45 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:44:21 -!- jcowan [~John@p-68-237-140-231.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:56:53 -!- Rakko [~rakko@71-90-73-192.dhcp.ftbg.wi.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Rakko] 07:26:15 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-125-174.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 07:30:30 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Quit: Kerrick] 07:31:00 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 07:38:57 Jafet1 [~Jafet@120.140.39.59] has joined #scheme 07:39:03 -!- Jafet1 [~Jafet@120.140.39.59] has quit [Changing host] 07:39:03 Jafet1 [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has 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Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:08:10 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:09:28 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 09:09:30 easy4 [~easy4@c-174-60-36-128.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:23:49 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 09:24:09 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.109] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:29:23 -!- DaDa` [~user@20.94.63.81.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:33:37 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 09:46:00 atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #scheme 10:17:18 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:23:45 Blkt [~user@net-93-146-149-37.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 10:24:40 good day everyone 10:30:22 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:37:26 -!- choas [~lars@p5792C2CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:55:29 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:11:37 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 11:12:22 Hi Blkt 11:13:32 gi 11:13:34 hi* 11:14:41 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-170.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 11:16:46 femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 11:21:33 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:24:39 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-88-117.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 11:25:38 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e055c8a.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 11:40:12 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 11:40:59 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-88-117.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:44:46 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #scheme 11:58:49 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:03 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 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-!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:45 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 13:12:35 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:13:57 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14:43 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 13:19:47 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:34:44 minion: memo for jcowan: OK, Google's search fails to equate canonically equivalent text -- but can you show me the code causing the bug in Google, and explain why this or that API would help to reduce the chance that someone would make the same bug again? 13:34:44 Remembered. I'll tell jcowan when he/she/it next speaks. 13:43:01 choas [~lars@p5792C2CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 13:49:53 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:56:08 luz [~davids@201.17.88.176] has joined #scheme 14:02:25 xwl [~user@117.79.235.206] has joined #scheme 14:05:18 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:11:13 Riastradh: it is not code but the absense of code - google doesn't normalize the search terms 14:11:31 I've put up some notes at http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/StringNormalization 14:12:07 atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #scheme 14:14:05 Riastradh! 14:14:08 hi :) 14:14:11 Hi. 14:15:20 -!- shirtless [~theuser@unaffiliated/shirtless] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:17:01 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has left #scheme 14:21:28 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-125-174.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:23:02 If there's anything on that page that needs clarification, let me know. 14:23:10 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:26:04 foof, `the canonical and compatibility normalizations are not commutative' should read `do not commute'. 14:26:44 OK 14:26:50 *sjamaan* - as a non-native reader - thinks "are not commutative" is a lot clearer 14:27:17 What it says is wrong. It implies that both canonical normalization and compatibility normalization are binary operations that exhibit the property of commutativity. 14:27:30 I see 14:27:46 `f and g do not commute' means that `f o g =/= g o f'. 14:32:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:32:59 I believe the standard term for what you are trying to describe in one of the paragraphs is `grapheme cluster', not `grapheme'; but there is more than one way to form the clusters, of which you probably want to refer to the default choice, i.e. default grapheme clusters. 14:34:30 I find it interesting that the most erudite and interesting conversations about Unicode that I've ever witnessed have been in this channel. 14:34:32 Yes, I got lazy at the end there. 14:34:43 I meant grapheme cluster. 14:35:00 And I _did_ emphasize that they would themselves need to be in some sort of normal form. 14:47:41 In older standards the normalization forms weren't idempotent, but I believe that was fixed. 14:48:09 That would make for a pretty darned useless normalization. 14:52:24 tonyg [~tonyg@navarone.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:54:03 FurnaceBoy [~FurnaceBo@bas2-toronto10-2925235460.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 14:55:32 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 14:59:34 dzhus [~sphinx@95-27-132-72.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 15:00:04 adadglgmut_ [~steve@cpe-65-25-14-11.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:02:07 -!- adadglgmut [~steve@cpe-65-25-14-11.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:05:23 gnomon: I don't know about the others, but i18n text processing is my job - I know it a lot better than I know Scheme. 15:12:04 -!- adadglgmut_ [~steve@cpe-65-25-14-11.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:22:22 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 15:26:25 -!- xwl [~user@117.79.235.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:28:19 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:29:26 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:29:28 jcowan [~John@p-68-237-140-231.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #scheme 15:29:33 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 15:29:43 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 15:31:19 mmc [~michal@cs27122118.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 15:32:23 edw```` [~user@71.23.221.213] has joined #scheme 15:33:03 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-82.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:35:52 -!- edw``` [~user@71.23.221.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:39:13 minion: memo to Riastradh: Of course I can't show you the code, but it is not about "this or that normalization package", it is about the use of one of two standard normalization algorithms to avoid bugs in searching and sorting text -- in this case, it's probably the sorting. 15:39:13 Remembered. I'll tell Riastradh when he/she/it next speaks. 15:43:04 -!- timj__ [~timj@e176192032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:58 15:44:58 Riastradh, memo from jcowan: Of course I can't show you the code, but it is not about "this or that normalization package", it is about the use of one of two standard normalization algorithms to avoid bugs in searching and sorting text -- in this case, it's probably the sorting. 15:45:52 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:47:56 consider the emergency broadcast system working. 15:53:28 -!- mhoye [~mhoye@shell.off.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:54:28 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-56-254.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:55:20 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-56-254.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:55 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-56-254.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:58:59 emma [~em@user-0ccemf4.cable.mindspring.com] has joined 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timeout: 272 seconds] 18:13:24 kar8nga [~kar8nga@i-127.vc-graz.ac.at] has joined #scheme 18:29:29 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 18:39:25 wingo [~wingo@247.Red-79-156-65.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:40:20 moin 18:40:23 schmir [~schmir@p54A90218.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:40:24 er, evening :) 18:41:17 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A90218.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:45 schmir [~schmir@p54A90218.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:42:13 -!- jao [~user@83.50.71.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:44:28 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:49:02 githogori [~githogori@220.sub-75-208-25.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 19:02:54 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:06:14 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:27:16 -!- adadglgmut 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[~rbarraud@118-93-88-117.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:50:38 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-88-117.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 22:55:16 ada2358 [~ada2358@login.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 23:00:21 -!- ada2358 is now known as adzuci 23:00:38 -!- adzuci [~ada2358@login.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 23:00:38 adzuci [~ada2358@unaffiliated/ada2358] has joined #scheme 23:03:40 -!- moell [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: "If you put a million monkeys at a million keyboards, one of them will eventually write a Java program. The rest of them will write Perl programs."] 23:04:10 -!- choas [~lars@p5792C2CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:06:41 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:14:59 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-196.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:18:03 -!- wingo [~wingo@247.Red-79-156-65.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:18:46 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-170.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:22:03 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-63-152.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 23:30:18 adadglgmut [~steve@cpe-65-25-14-11.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:31:02 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:32:10 Scala [~agscala@198.111.39.24] has joined #scheme 23:32:24 -!- Nshag [~none@AClermont-Ferrand-551-1-124-45.w92-150.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 23:32:38 I'm using guile on ubuntu. If I use guile -s filename.scm, is it supposed to print the result to stdout? 23:36:02 -!- saccade [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THIRTY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:36:26 saccade [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THIRTY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:53:04 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:41 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 23:55:08 -!- jao [~user@52.Red-213-98-196.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:55:10 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:00 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:58:33 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]