00:04:41 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 00:07:22 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:10:44 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:11:55 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@202-180-88-252.callplus.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:27:58 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:30:39 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 00:43:43 -!- aymeric [~aymeric@CPE0019e33fe10f-CM0017ee42b49e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: aymeric] 00:48:12 rbarraud [~rbarraud@202-180-88-252.callplus.net.nz] has joined #scheme 00:48:52 Rakko [~rakko@71-90-73-192.dhcp.ftbg.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 00:50:30 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:55 rotty: ping 00:54:30 jesusito [~user@92.pool85-54-35.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #scheme 00:55:56 How do you check if a variable is bound? 00:56:49 Rakko: why would you want to do that? 00:57:53 Well... basically, I want to define a port to one file in the port variable hasn't already been bound 00:58:09 *if the port variable hasn't already been bound 00:58:28 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 00:59:05 I don't know, then. Maybe you can do that with a macro. 00:59:12 Hmmmmm 00:59:21 Must not be something that's commonly done in Scheme. 00:59:32 surely the whole point of static scope is that you don't do that 00:59:59 It seems that he wants to do that as definitions, with conditional inclusion or some such. 01:00:13 yeah 01:00:30 I would just use a command line argument, but MIT Scheme (which I am using) doesn't seem to allow that easily 01:02:27 Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-19-234-140.bois.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:15:34 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:17:06 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:18:11 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 01:18:20 Rakko: I suspect you're confused somehow. 01:18:29 Why would a variable be bound that you don't know about? 01:18:47 maybe he has a different view of programming than you, dont be so insensitive 01:18:59 confused somehow is flame lite. 01:19:01 :) 01:19:08 Diet Flame. 01:19:48 Yeah... I'm coming from Ruby 01:22:00 ruby is a magic land of milk and honey. scheme is a barren wasteland where nomads fight for drops of water 01:22:48 Rakko: emacs lisp is similar -- you can take a symbol and ask "is there a variable associated with this symbol". But in scheme, names aren't present at runtime so it makes no sense to ask that question. 01:23:24 ok :) 01:23:28 not really 01:23:34 ruby is slow as hell 01:23:58 and basically just a lisp warped into algol-style syntax anyways 01:24:25 well i guess 1.9 is about the same speed as python 01:24:31 jonrafkind: I read that as 'monads fight...' 01:24:33 so that's a bit better, but still slow 01:25:11 jonrafkind: oh I see now the humour in your first line. 01:25:17 *FurnaceBoy* is a bit slow 01:25:22 ill be here all week 01:25:26 :D 01:25:33 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:25:34 what's the deal with r6rs now 01:25:36 it was one of those slow burning witticisms 01:25:43 so they want to split into two languages?? 01:25:55 yea, big scheme and little scheme 01:26:08 big = libraries and other nonsense, little = r5rs + some extra stuff, I guess 01:26:16 Why didn't they just make one language with a small standard lib 01:26:20 *offby1* bets that Big Scheme can beat up Little Scheme 01:26:37 jyaan: because if you do that you end up with the situation we have now 01:26:39 then make a standard optional extension lib 01:26:40 thats what I think they should do.. but who knows what the editors want 01:27:14 Yeah, that's roughly the situation we have now. 01:28:02 making scheme big is really bad for me 01:28:13 and probably lots of other ppl i'm sure 01:28:19 I don't really care about Real Life Development, anyhow -- more fun to read TRS and hear the oleg counter click, click, click. 01:28:25 lol 01:28:39 well i use it for RL stuff, but i actually need it smaller 01:28:50 but that's because i use it along with C/C++ 01:29:01 i dont see what the issue is, if oyu want small scheme then just use r5rs or something forever 01:29:14 but the world keeps moving and people want bigger libraries standard, so make that 01:29:17 what's TRS? 01:29:22 Because some things from r5rs are good 01:29:39 jonrafkind: how did that work out for R6RS ;) 01:30:14 well i dont really understand the people who dislike r6rs 01:30:19 not that I disagree with you 01:31:10 There are criticisms to be made, but I've seen more than a few who have just inherited others' dislike of it 01:31:40 -!- jesusito [~user@92.pool85-54-35.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: Quit] 01:32:33 Actually as long as the resulting lib I have to link in isn't huge it would probably be OK 01:33:51 The issue for me is just that since I'm embedding I really don't need to pull in so much stuff 01:34:36 seems like the implementation should provide some way to exclude stuff you dont want 01:34:49 yea then I'd be happy 01:35:00 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@202-180-88-252.callplus.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:35:27 Unicode is good for me since I always use it 01:35:49 syntax-case is also nice 01:36:13 i don't like the way the module system looks, but that's a minor complaint 01:36:16 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Hay] 01:36:53 basically anything I don't use I don't want to come in 01:37:15 Yes, that's the thing everyone seems to agree on. 01:37:19 but in that case the module system would help in figuring that out 01:37:34 lol jafet 01:38:27 well it should work out in the end i hope 01:40:55 btw i was wondering 01:41:11 why is delay in a compat lib in r5rs 01:41:30 did they add a different way of doing lazy eval or not? 01:42:27 presumably it's in the r6rs rationale 01:42:30 compat lib for r5rs 01:42:38 yea i'm trying to find it 01:44:03 really the. worst thing about r6rs is that the index is horribly hard to read 01:44:05 lol 01:44:50 all it seems to say is "The (rnrs (6)) library does not include a few select libraries: ... (rnrs r5rs (6)), as its features are deprecated" 01:45:36 maybe they took it out because it's pretty easy to do yourself 01:45:48 It doesn't really matter anyway as they are in SRFI 45 and there is an R6RS version of that 01:46:36 and it doesn't even cheat, it makes promises a record type 01:46:59 yea i'm reading srfi-45 now 01:47:46 -!- luz [~davids@201.17.88.176] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 01:49:17 -!- pavelludiq [~user@83.222.175.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:49:58 do you know the reason they also took out exact->inexact? 01:50:41 oh nvm 01:50:45 well they didn't take them out 01:50:49 just renamed 01:50:52 yea 01:50:56 exact and inexact 01:51:26 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-49-233.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:53:32 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-19-234-140.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:53:36 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-49-233.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 01:53:41 hm maybe it's not as big as i thought 01:54:05 seems a lot that's in there is actually just stuff i'm already using like hashtables and bytevectors 02:01:42 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-186-52.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 02:07:39 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:08 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:17:13 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:17:42 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@109-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:23:36 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:24:41 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 02:26:23 -!- FurnaceBoy [~FurnaceBo@ns2.smartgames.ca] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 02:27:23 FurnaceBoy [~FurnaceBo@ns2.smartgames.ca] has joined #scheme 02:32:15 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:36:28 hohoho_ [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:38:26 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 02:50:06 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-186-52.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:50:21 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-186-52.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 02:52:39 timj__ [~timj@e176192007.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:56:21 -!- timj_ [~timj@e176194023.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:00:48 -!- hohoho_ [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:13 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-186-52.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:03:31 hohoho_ [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:03:40 -!- hohoho_ [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26:50 IceD^ [~iced@live.bn.by] has joined #scheme 03:26:53 hey guys 03:26:58 hi 03:27:05 what's lib functions naming convention 03:27:21 e.g. I got libs (foo first) and (foo second) 03:27:40 should I name funcs in them like foo-hello 03:27:47 oh 03:27:53 r5rs or r6rs 03:27:57 r6rs 03:28:13 well i guess it's up to you 03:28:21 i would probably do still like foo-hello 03:28:30 I know it's possible to do either way 03:28:35 don't want conflicts 03:28:38 yeah 03:28:42 thinking the same 03:28:53 i've basically always done it that way 03:29:01 jyaan: it differs between r5 and r6? 03:29:18 i thought he was talking about something else 03:29:27 question wasn't very clear at first :P 03:29:47 oh 03:30:38 but yea everybody does it that way 03:30:42 that's my bad habbit for for enter-as-punktuation probably 03:30:56 unless it's something intended to be more like a language feature 03:31:31 for example, if you made a format function, you probably wouldn't want to call it foo-format 03:32:10 or if you made 'for' or 'loop' or sometihng like that 03:33:08 are there only 3 r6rs impl. out now? 03:33:23 i decided to check it out in more detail and that's all i really found 03:34:12 there are 8 i know of 03:34:43 i know ikarus, ypsilon and racket but that's it 03:35:16 larceny,mosh,ironscheme,biwascheme and chez 03:35:37 and I think I saw another one on sourceforge the other day ;) 03:35:38 too many schemes 03:35:41 yea i found the implementations page or r6rs.org 03:35:49 I was thinking today I should create one called ischemia 03:36:10 IceD^: You may be interested in http://blog.willdonnelly.net/ 03:36:12 2010/08/20/announcing-the-ucl-portability-libraries/ 03:36:29 hmm, that shouldn't have happened 03:38:01 as for manually prefixing your code, it depends 03:40:10 development of larceny is supported by microsoft?? 03:40:14 seems odd 03:40:36 ironic maybe 03:41:22 i tried install racket yesterday 03:41:30 seems to be some problem with amd64 03:41:34 ubuntu 03:43:28 also i have no clue which options to enable when running configure 03:43:30 :S 03:44:21 62 --enable options 03:44:28 OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:45:01 jyaan: I think they make binaries available 03:45:12 not for amd64 ubuntu 03:45:15 they have 32 only 03:46:11 ah 03:46:28 have they got amd64 for some other distro? It'll probably work. 03:46:38 I think I installed the "Fedora" binaries on ubuntu with no trouble. 03:46:39 fedora 03:46:51 sometimes that works, sometimes not 03:47:02 distros can have different install paths also 03:47:05 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-186-52.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 03:47:25 worth a try though i guess 03:47:56 ehhh 03:47:58 not rpm lol 03:48:11 self-extracting shell script 03:48:14 i hate those 03:48:53 i just want a list of suggested configure options 03:49:08 but they don't discuss installation at all 03:50:50 wonder why it uses Xaw 03:50:58 Ugliest looking thing ever made 03:52:38 ugh probably should have enabled jit, missed that one 03:52:40 O.o 03:53:00 --enable-float ? 03:53:09 --enabled-floatinstead 03:53:14 that's what i mean about this stuff 03:55:00 If I for some terrible reason wanted to override the 'if' procedure, is it usable after I do it or is there some quirk I'm missing? 03:55:23 what do you mean 03:55:26 heh 03:55:27 try it 03:55:29 it would be replaced 03:55:32 might be a macro though 03:55:46 Yeah I'm trying it, I was just getting "Unassigned variable: if" afterward 03:55:47 and not a procedure 03:56:21 it's a macro for me on gambit-c 03:56:53 maybe you can't override the default special forms, i don't know 03:56:58 hehe 03:57:13 i don't see why you'd want to anyways lol 03:57:29 if you need an extended if or something, just make a macro for it 03:57:30 for stupid, perverse reasons!! 03:57:42 it's nothing practical really 03:57:44 kinda like me wanting to detect if a variable is bound 03:57:49 overriding special forms is usually allowed, which scheme is this? 03:57:49 Haha 03:57:54 mit-scheme 03:58:05 Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-109-7.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 03:58:11 Thx for clarying, I was curious too 03:58:18 clarifying 03:58:20 would a bit of code help? 03:59:25 strange, seems like it works fine for me 03:59:55 yeah heh. I could be doing something stupid 04:00:18 what I was doing: http://paste.lisp.org/display/113765 04:02:10 should use macros for that kind of thing, really 04:02:20 well I'm a learner hehe 04:02:24 do you konw about define-syntax ? 04:03:02 nope 04:03:42 well that's the standard way to do this stuff 04:03:55 I know as much as is covered in Chapter 1 of SICP :P 04:03:58 I'm not sure why it would say if isn't bound there 04:04:01 here's a little page about syntax-rules 04:04:02 http://blog.willdonnelly.net/2008/09/04/a-scheme-syntax-rules-primer/ 04:05:27 I mean, 0 not being applicable I can understand, but not that error 04:05:29 ok, hopefully racket builds this time 04:06:24 necroforest [~jarred@pool-72-66-100-119.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:06:46 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 04:06:51 OEP: Questions about whether or not if is bound there aside, that code was never going to work 04:07:17 e.g., divide-by-zero encoutnered? 04:07:54 well, if you evaluate (not a) and it's true, then you will immediately try to apply b 04:07:58 but b is a number 04:08:17 oh 04:08:18 `else' probably isn't bound there either 04:08:37 and ditto for trying to apply the result of (/ x a) 04:09:16 ok, I follow. I'm trying to execute things that don't make sense. 04:09:55 i'm going to sleep, cya guys later 04:10:04 what you would have to do is pass in a procedure of no argument 04:10:19 i.e. (if (= a 0) (lambda () 0) (lambda () (/ x a))) 04:10:32 but first, you should fix that cond 04:10:49 is (identity 0) kosher? 04:11:00 i don't follow 04:11:20 the identity procedure returns it's argument as is 04:11:48 (if (= a 0) (identity 0) (/ x a)) 04:11:50 OEP, MIT Scheme reports `Unbound variable: a' for the code you lisppasted at . 04:11:56 Not `Unassigned variable: if'. 04:12:55 Riastradh: I left a's definition out 04:13:09 error in posting a snippet, sorry 04:13:13 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-72-66-100-119.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:13:17 Riastradh: your nick looks very familiar... but I think I last saw it many years ago 04:14:19 If I define both x and a, then the error is `The object 0 is not applicable.', OEP. 04:14:46 That or division by zero, depending on whether I define a to be 0 or some other number. 04:15:01 (Or, if I define a to be something that is not a number at all, the error will be of a wrong type of argument passed to =.) 04:15:02 Riastradh: yep, IJP was just scolding me about that :P 04:15:06 hohoho [~hohoho@o198-104.pubnet.titech.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 04:19:39 OEP: (identity 0) would not work in that context 04:20:00 Yeah, it didn't.. heh 04:20:34 what sort of thing is 'else'? 04:21:01 Hi, Rakko. I've been here for many years, so it would stand to reason that you might have seen me here many years ago. 04:21:49 OEP: Your definition of 'if' is a procedure, and so it evaluates it's arguments eagerly 04:22:18 If doesn't see '(identity 0', it sees the result, which is 0 04:23:19 Riastradh: I never came here until a few days ago, though. Maybe it was someone else with the same nickname. 04:23:51 Unlikely, Rakko. I don't think anyone else uses the name `Riastradh'. I've been in other channels, too, of course; I have been using IRC for many years. 04:24:19 However, I suppose there are some people with similar names. For example, there is a Common Lisp hacker named `Robert Strandh', who might be called `rstrandh' sometimes. 04:25:20 Nah, it was definitely Riastradh. 04:25:53 *FurnaceBoy* watches the mystery gestate 04:25:55 It was probably some computerish channel, at any rate. 04:26:25 so what kind of atom (?) is else? Is it only defined within a cond? 04:27:23 Basically, yes, Rakko. As long as you don't bind the name ELSE to a new meaning (e.g., bind it to a variable), it has meaning only within a COND, or a CASE, &c., in particular positions. 04:28:25 To me it sticks out like a sore thumb 04:28:37 The same goes for => in COND. 04:28:40 I don't expect to see keywords in the middle of constructs 04:28:59 kinda weird situation lib foo imports lib bar in bar I got func bar-x which uses functions exported by foo - foo-x, foo imports bar (therefore I can't import foo from bar). when I'm trying to import foo in main prog - error undefined foo-x in bar-x 04:29:15 any other way but define baz lib with conflicting function? 04:30:17 IceD^, I don't understand what your situation is. Can you please restate that with complete sentences, not run-on sentences or juxtaposed sentence fragments? 04:30:42 Riastradh, he has circular imports 04:30:46 Riastradh, let me show you 04:30:57 IJP, right - and trying to avoid that 04:30:59 The dependency graph of R6RS libraries may not have cycles. 04:31:05 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@o198-104.pubnet.titech.ac.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:31:05 I know that 04:31:20 let me rephrase 04:31:36 Merely omitting the statement of dependencies doesn't solve the problem. 04:31:43 while scheme is complaining about undefined symbol when defining function 04:31:45 in lib 04:32:03 Is `lib' a particular R6RS library, IceD^? 04:32:17 so can't import lib with (define (foo) (will-be-defined-later)) inside 04:32:30 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Going out.] 04:32:34 my own 04:33:12 I am having trouble following you, IceD^. Again, please write in complete sentences. 04:34:25 http://pastebin.com/3HBaJ0D9 04:34:55 why? 04:35:01 rikijpn [~user@176.5.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:35:17 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 04:35:18 when I'm trying to call cs-os - cs-linux is defined 04:35:31 cs-linux?* 04:37:16 Is the object to provide a library (CS OS) that exports a binding of the name CS-OS to a variable whose value is a procedure that returns a symbol representing the local operating system? 04:38:22 I want to have all - cs-linux? cs-windows? and cs-os exported finally 04:38:35 and as cs-os is independand - I want it to be defined in one place 04:39:17 Riastradh: lolwut 04:39:44 OK. How about this? cs/os.scm: (library (cs os) (export cs-os cs-linux? cs-windows?) (import (rnrs base) (cs os-frob)) (define (cs-os) (cond ((cs-linux?) 'linux) ((cs-windows?) 'windows) (else #f], cs/os-frob.ypsilon.scm: (library (cs os-frob) (export cs-linux? cs-windows?) (import (rnrs base) (ffi)) (define (cs-linux?) on-linux) (define (cs-windows?) on-windows] 04:40:13 (The choice of an appropriate lexeme with which to replace `frob' is left as an exercise for the reader.) 04:40:19 ooh, lexeme! 04:40:32 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 04:40:36 I worked out my problems eventually. Thanks guys :) 04:40:41 cool 04:41:47 IceD^, The reason that your code fails, is that the identifers in (cs os-generic) are resolved based upon the imports to that module, not the identifiers in the module to which it is exported 04:42:06 err, does that make sense? 04:42:18 IJP, any nice way to resolve it :) 04:42:36 Riastradh, I undestand that, ty - but trying to find nice way 04:42:39 Yes, the way Riastradh showed, import the specifics into the generic 04:43:45 but that's just ugly :( 04:44:33 and will it work? 04:44:49 Try it. 04:45:06 just make sure to replace the ] with the appropriate number of parentheses 04:45:15 os-generic impots os-frob, os imports os-generic and os-frob 04:45:18 question removed 04:45:41 -!- FurnaceBoy [~FurnaceBo@ns2.smartgames.ca] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 04:46:24 cool notation 04:53:39 night 04:53:44 -!- Rakko [~rakko@71-90-73-192.dhcp.ftbg.wi.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Rakko] 05:06:57 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-186-52.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:25:26 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-222-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:25:31 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-222-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:32:54 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:36:29 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 05:55:45 chittoor [~chittoor@listertech.in] has joined #scheme 06:02:59 hey guys, I'm a scheme noob, I speak logo and emacs lisp. I got mit-scheme, and was not disliking it, but when I tried to write a script that takes filenames as arguments, I got my first trouble... I searched through the whole documentation, and apparently mit-scheme can't read arguments as for scripting... Apparently mzscheme (now racket), and/or chicken scheme can. Any suggestions you can give me about a good scheme for scripting? (is 06:02:59 RACKET usually used for more difficult stuff than this? is chicken/or_any_other scheme just right for this? etc) 06:03:55 any scheme that supports the scripts srfi should be OK 06:04:06 srfi-22 06:05:17 gambit uses the procedure command-line to get the argumnets 06:05:19 arguments* 06:05:27 like C, the 0th argument is the program name 06:06:08 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:06:09 i think in chicken it's called command-line-arguments 06:06:38 -!- Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-109-7.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: REALITY IS TEARING ITSELF ASUNDER, BUT I MUST RACE] 06:06:56 yea, command-line-arguments in chicken 06:07:08 but it seems that the program name isn't part of it :S 06:08:16 Thanks! I see, I'm reading about srfi-22. It apparently works only for UNIX machines. I want to give my program to some friend who has windows, so I was hoping I could use something more out of the box. I guess chicken is what I'm looking for then?... 06:08:26 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 06:08:35 well i thought you just meant running from a command line 06:08:45 but yea, in chicken command-line-arguments will still do the trick 06:09:21 would be nice if it were the same in all schemes but oh well :S 06:10:32 I think so too^^ I couldn't believe mit-scheme can't accept arguments... 06:10:47 it has to be able to somehow 06:10:54 seems just wrong not to 06:10:54 lol 06:11:01 jao [~user@cpe-76-166-198-241.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:11:12 it's called command-line in ypsilon 06:11:13 lol 06:11:23 oh thanks? lol 06:11:25 maybe chicken is just the odd one out 06:11:40 you got me curious about it now 06:13:19 I'm just a noob man^^ I thought every language could take arguments. I guess scheme wasn't originally made for this kind of tasks? You guys are the pros... 06:13:33 should be 06:13:52 seems like something that got overlooked imo 06:26:17 read r6rs tonight 06:26:47 it's actually not as big as i'd been led to believe 06:27:00 and basically everything in there is useful to me 06:28:31 nego [~nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:29:36 elderK [~elderK@219-89-62-30.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 06:29:36 -!- elderK [~elderK@219-89-62-30.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Changing host] 06:29:36 elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 06:31:16 -!- elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has left #scheme 06:33:00 abhinav [~abhinav@72.163.190.132] has joined #scheme 06:34:19 -!- OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:35:37 thanks^^ doesn't look like such an interesting read though lol. I just tried chicken scheme, it worked fine in linux. But apparently to use it in windows you have to download some libraries, and stuffs my friend probably won't be able to do... Any extremely simple scheme interpreter that doesn't need anything else to be installed and is cross-platform you know about?... I just read about tinyscheme but apparently isn't what I'm looking 06:35:37 for... 06:36:07 why can't you statically compile the stuff 06:36:21 just make a single exe for your app 06:36:50 or just stick the dlls in the same folder as the exie 06:36:51 exe* 06:40:58 ugh 06:41:01 I would have to compile the file in windows first, right? That's my friend's computer, I only happen to have linux... I want to like just send her the scheme script, tell her to get "XXscheme" and run it from there. 06:41:05 racket still is not finished installing 06:41:11 oh hm 06:41:25 gambit works on windows then 06:41:32 quite nicely in fact 06:41:43 i use gambit and ypsilon on windows 06:42:11 gambit has been easiest for me when using different platforms 06:42:43 x86/amd64 windows, mac, linux, mips (psp), arm (iphone) 06:43:04 I was just reading about gambit! can it take command line arguments? 06:43:09 yea ofc 06:43:23 (command-line) to collect them in a list 06:43:32 1st argument is the program name 06:43:50 I think I got what I was looking for, gonna give it a try, thanks! 06:43:58 np, gl 06:44:02 btw i love gambit 06:44:06 :) 06:44:19 debugger is great, and the code is fast 06:45:28 btw, there are two programs 06:45:35 gsc is the compiler, gsi is the interpreter 06:45:42 so you'll want your friend to run it through gsi 06:46:17 (gsc can do it too, but you have to provide an argument, and you probably want to keep things simple for your friend) 06:48:17 yes, finally racket has finished compiling stuff (after only 2 hours.. lol) 06:48:27 oh nearly 3 hours 06:49:41 thanks again. wow haven't compiled anything from source for like years (except for the kernel^^) good luck with that lol 06:49:54 haha 06:50:04 well you don't have to compile it if you have ubuntu at least 06:50:12 i know for a fact it's in the repo 06:50:25 somewhat old version tho 06:51:00 oh misunderstood -.- 06:51:18 yea racket didn't have a package for amd64 and i wanted to check it out 06:51:38 i compile from source all the time, that's just how it is for developers i guess? 06:52:14 that's just how you get the latest stuff 06:52:25 fortunately there are tools like checkinstall to help with it tho 06:52:51 good luck with your program, better try to get to sleep again, night 06:53:06 night man 06:53:35 ahh it finished, now i really want to check it out lol 06:54:14 lol computer-addiction is not so bad^^ 06:54:54 I could stop if I wanted to! 06:55:01 ugh wow 06:55:06 the install was 277mb 06:55:30 for a "scheme", one of the smallest and cleanest languages out there lol 06:55:51 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 06:55:52 mmmm... and it comes with games?? 06:55:56 damn... I guess you got the webserver and the whole set^^ 06:55:59 I tried to build mit-scheme from source the other day, it was madness 06:56:08 it said so in the webpage 06:56:10 building for like an hour and a half only to fail with cryptic messages 06:56:30 omg "sudo apt-get install mit-scheme", so glad to use debian:D 06:56:39 haha 06:56:46 for some reason fedora doesn't have it packaged :S 06:56:56 I'm just sticking with guile for now 06:57:08 scheme is usually the last sort of thing packaged 06:57:32 ubuntu had gambit 4.0 i think 06:57:37 I was rather suprised to be honest, there are plenty of more esoteric things packaged 06:57:47 so i installed 4.6 from source 06:57:57 actually it's not hard at all 06:58:03 as long as it has a good build system 06:58:08 -!- rikijpn [~user@176.5.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: cya guys] 06:58:30 if it's got a configure script, you can use checkinstall to automatically create and install a package 06:58:46 runs make install for you and keeps track of what changed- 06:59:11 i always use it instead of make install, can't think of any reason _not_ to 06:59:23 still have to be careful tho 06:59:39 becasue it's still possible to do really bad things like overwrite your python install :P 06:59:41 it took a serious ammount of googling for me to even figure out where to get started with mit-scheme, since I didn't have any sort of mit-scheme install to start wtih 06:59:57 i don't think i've ever used it- 07:00:23 but i still to the scheme-to-c implementations for the most part, just cause that's what i need 07:00:25 the CS class I'm taking right now that uses scheme uses mit-scheme in particular 07:00:41 i write little games and multimedia stuff & what not 07:00:51 nice 07:01:04 and with a scheme->c compiler i can port ot just about anything 07:01:18 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:01:25 iphone, psp, ps2, etc 07:01:35 haven't tried xbox but i'm sure that would work too 07:01:57 pretty slick 07:02:13 yea i like it 07:02:49 and it's not hard to get away with using scheme at work this way 07:03:11 since it just makes C code and the license is liberal enough 07:03:33 haha 07:03:48 how terrible looking is the C it generates? 07:03:56 lol that's another story 07:04:00 :) 07:04:03 for gambit, the C is crazy looking 07:04:12 essentially a file with 100% macros 07:04:14 no joke lol 07:04:34 chicken is less insane 07:04:47 I've played around with vala a little, it also generates a horror show of C 07:04:59 haha, funny you would mention that 07:05:04 i've used vala too 07:05:12 it's actually pretty good 07:05:24 the horror show really isn't its fault so much, that's just how gobject is 07:05:30 yeah 07:05:49 but for the way it does "exceptions" and "garbage collection", the code starts looking stinky pretty fast 07:06:16 i had about 5 lines of vala inside a try-catch, and it expanded to around 30 lines of C 07:06:34 complete with the comma operator abused all over the place -- that's relaly the worst part about vala 07:06:36 I don't have much use for it (avoid all gui programming like the plague) so I didn't do to much with it 07:06:56 very interesting regardless though 07:07:48 they'll do stuff like (__tmp__ = g_malloc(sizeof(Something)), __tmp__ == NULL ? __tmp__0 = tmp : __tmp__0 = NULL, __tmp__0) 07:07:59 that code doesn't really make sense to do, but you get the idea 07:08:26 they'll stick the free()'s in there and stuff like that 07:08:47 I'm a fan of the code yacc kicks out. you have to dig through the files to find anything that even looks like C :) 07:09:00 i guess that's how they try to guarantee that a single vala statement that's supposed to be atomic doesn't get intertwined with something else? 07:09:14 haha 07:10:01 at least gambit will generate debugging info for you 07:10:33 so when you debug with gdb, it will tell you the SCHEME procedure you need to look at, and the SCHEME file and line number you need to check 07:10:47 thank god lol 07:11:17 ah, nice 07:12:53 yea without stuff like that it debugging would be a nightmare 07:22:13 -!- jao [~user@cpe-76-166-198-241.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:22:16 no idea what chicken does 07:22:25 haven't used it as much 07:27:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 07:36:31 I haven't used either in a while 07:45:38 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:49:28 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:49:36 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:49:36 -!- rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:49:36 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:51:29 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 07:52:36 alvatar [~alvatar@67.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 08:00:00 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #scheme 08:00:00 rudybot [~luser@offby1.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 08:00:00 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #scheme 08:00:09 la la la 08:01:32 -!- pigoz [~pigoz@lilac.feralhosting.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:07:06 rudybot: are you a bot? 08:07:08 alvatar: I indeed sometimes store program state in (what are effectively) globals. And before you say "eww, how uncultured", note that Eli does likewise in his bot peebee (although to be sure he uses "parameters", which are effectively thread-local) 08:07:15 rudybot: I see 08:07:16 alvatar: If your internal apis are ones that only you see, and you have some illusions about not needing as much attention at that level, then you're in for some surprises. 08:07:56 rudybot: what are your abilities? 08:07:56 alvatar: I'm glad you think so highly of my abilities. 08:08:02 rudybot: :D 08:08:03 alvatar: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 08:08:13 rudybot: help 08:08:13 alvatar: help [], version, quote, source, seen , uptime, t8 ..., init [], eval ..., give ..., apropos ..., desc , doc , later "tell" ... 08:09:05 rudybot: give alvatar your knowledge 08:09:06 alvatar: error: Talk to yourself much too? 08:09:16 I love this guy 08:14:07 masm [~masm@2.80.146.167] has joined #scheme 08:16:24 -!- fod [~fod@92.251.255.6.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:22:58 rudybot: (eval '(+ 1 2)) 08:22:58 jyaan: eval (begin (define a 'foo) (set! a 'bar) a) 08:23:07 lol 08:23:19 does that make any sense at all? :P 08:23:33 guess it's a syntax hint 08:23:35 jyaan: you should not put brackets around the eval. 08:23:40 ya 08:23:46 it's a bot command, not a scheme function call 08:23:50 rudybot: eval (+ 1 2) 08:23:53 jyaan: your sandbox is ready 08:23:53 jyaan: ; Value: 3 08:24:08 hm 08:24:39 does scheme have something like CL's labels ? 08:26:41 I don't remember how flet and labels differ 08:27:22 lexical instead of dynamic i think? 08:27:23 I guess LETREC is a good start for a comparison 08:27:53 just wondering if recursive lambda was possible 08:29:59 oh right, it can use its own name 08:30:02 i knew that :P 08:30:18 rudybot: eval (letrec ((foo (lambda (x) (if (= 0 x) 1 (* x (foo (- x 1))))))) (foo 10)) 08:30:19 Axioplase: your sandbox is ready 08:30:19 Axioplase: ; Value: 3628800 08:30:26 incredibly obvious 08:30:26 yea 08:30:43 no idea why i didn't think of that before 08:31:00 If you need local functions, you may also just stack up DEFINE's at the beginning 08:31:09 yea i know about that 08:32:34 are there any good documents on define-syntax- 08:33:04 i understand define-macro completely, but define-syntax is still sort of alien to me 08:33:09 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:33:24 Mr-Cat [c31aa706@gateway/web/freenode/ip.195.26.167.6] has joined #scheme 08:33:44 most books seem to gloss right over it for some reason, which seems totally silly considering how useful macros are 08:33:44 I just know basic syntax-rules 08:33:52 yea me too 08:34:13 i read you can make your own transformers somehow, i think with let-syntax 08:36:29 even the standard seems pretty brief on it 08:36:37 jyaan: get a glance at http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macros.html 08:36:55 thanks 08:44:49 probably the worst thing about syntax-rules and syntax-case is how slow it is lol 08:45:18 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5adafe9d.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 08:47:58 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.142] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:55:36 Grass-Mud-Horse [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #scheme 09:03:23 jyaan: Is it? 09:03:36 depending on the implementation 09:03:54 i know some are pretty good but the one i have isnt :( 09:05:18 jyaan: Which one? 09:05:30 gambit, actually by default it's disabled 09:06:21 hm 09:06:21 EbiDK_ [~ebi@3e6b7ac3.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #scheme 09:06:34 seems the file is uncompiled 09:06:50 i'll give that a shot and see if it helps 09:07:00 it's not that big of a problem anyways tho 09:07:38 basic macros are fine, there's also define-macro, and it's only at compile 09:07:42 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-10-97.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 09:07:49 time 09:10:11 -!- EbiDK [~ebi@3e6b7ac3.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:16:21 karme [~user@stgt-5f70b0c6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 09:26:06 schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 09:26:52 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.146.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:29:15 arcus: Yes, I know Hugh Aguilar. 09:29:22 Oh, he's not here. 09:31:23 Anyway, tell him that he may just ignore him. 09:31:39 He's posting garbage. 09:43:56 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 09:44:18 -!- adadglgmut [~steve@cpe-65-25-14-11.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26:28 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #scheme 10:33:00 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [Quit: brb] 10:51:22 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-10-97.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:51:50 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-10-97.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 10:59:21 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 11:02:11 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-10-97.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 11:03:16 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-10-97.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:04:03 EbiDK__ [~ebi@3e6b7ac3.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #scheme 11:07:48 -!- EbiDK_ [~ebi@3e6b7ac3.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:08:38 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 11:12:32 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@109-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #scheme 11:29:22 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #scheme 11:34:55 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-10-97.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:35:21 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-10-97.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 11:53:50 OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:54:09 -!- karme [~user@stgt-5f70b0c6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:59:41 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-10-97.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:01:23 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:02:02 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 12:05:23 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 12:05:42 sanjoyd [~sanjoy@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #scheme 12:06:31 Newbie starting out with SICP here. Please suggest a scheme implementation. Running Debian. 12:10:20 sanjoyd: Well, that depends what you want to do! 12:11:00 SICP 12:11:20 I use Chicken because I already know Scheme and am busy writing Real World Industrial Strength Apps(tm) so tight integration with C is handy, but it's not got the greatest debugging facilities, and shiny debuggers are very good for learning 12:11:26 Grass-Mud-Horse: Ah, but what *after* SICP? 12:12:03 Completion of a course, submission of coursework, then wondering off for a life of Enterprise Java Programming? Or continuing deeper into the world of Scheme? :-) 12:14:28 Debian also makes it easy to just try several ones 12:14:37 Especially if you use debfoster 12:15:48 That's a very good answer, actually! Try some and see what you like! 12:16:50 Note: the chicken package in debian stable is as old as debian stable. 12:17:25 You shouldn't use it. 12:17:52 (the chicken package from Debian for Debian stable, I mean) 12:17:55 Was there a backport? 12:19:51 Possibly, but if you plan to install eggs, you'll need all the tools you need to build chicken itself. So, why not build chicken? It's very simple. 12:20:43 Well, the reason of course is that you'll end up with unmanaged software 12:20:44 sanjoyd: You may also try racket 12:20:48 And do the integration yourself 12:21:00 But that's a whole other argument 12:21:20 Having ancient versions of developing things is usually trouble 12:21:32 Especially something like a development/runtime environment 12:22:23 But having ancient development/runtime environment just for packaging sake is usually trouble too. :-) 12:22:24 Still, we don't know which Debian sanjoyd uses 12:22:49 Specially on debian stable, which ships chicken 3.4, which nobody uses and is deprecated. 12:33:50 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@67.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:33:54 -!- mmc [~michal@93-39-32-196.ip74.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:36:00 alvatar [~alvatar@229.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 12:36:15 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@229.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:51:51 alvatar [~alvatar@208.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 12:54:12 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@208.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:56:23 alaricsp: do you konw if scheme inserts the scheme debugging information in executables? 12:56:33 Chicken Scheme* 12:56:53 alvatar [~alvatar@208.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 12:57:06 For example, instead of giving the line number and function from the generated C, it would give the ones from Scheme 12:57:36 jyaan: Erm... It keeps procedure names so it can do a call trace when something dies, but it's a little primitive! I think it could be improved a lot with a little work, but nobody's bothered yet... 12:57:45 kk 12:57:51 Yea important stuff, imo 12:57:55 Yes, it is 12:57:56 But at least Scheme has a REPL 12:58:00 Indeed! 12:58:12 And you can do little tricks because of that 12:58:12 I tend to debug with logging to current-output-port ;-) 12:58:17 hehe 12:58:45 My procedures all grow (printf "(foo ~A ~A ~A)\n" arg1 arg2 arg3) prologues when I'm not sure what's going on! 12:58:48 hm nice 12:59:04 I compiled the syntax-case library for gambit and it actually works 12:59:10 when loaded from shared library 12:59:11 :) 12:59:16 much faster 12:59:25 There's a tracing-things-done-from-the-repl facility, but I never remember it's there when I need it 12:59:31 haha 12:59:36 I only know it exists since I keep noticing it when reading documents when I *don't* need it 12:59:38 STORY OF MY LIFE 12:59:40 yea i use that from time to time, really handy 12:59:55 gambit-c and chicken actually have some pretty similar features 13:00:07 i really love the whole idea behind chicken's design tho 13:01:14 Yeah, it's a good foundation to build on 13:01:22 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 13:01:31 using C functions the way it does 13:01:35 And over the past year or two, Chicken has been really advancing in finishing off the roofing above that foundation ;-) 13:01:43 haha 13:01:43 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@208.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:01:45 alaricsp: trace egg, probably: http://wiki.call-cc.org/egg/trace 13:02:00 oh i thought it had trace as a builtin 13:02:08 hm guess not 13:02:12 well gamibt does anyways 13:02:18 jyaan: it was in the past, IIRC 13:02:50 femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 13:03:00 Chicken 4 fixed macros and modules, and recently, there's been a lot of good work in tidying up the documentation system 13:03:14 Hmmm, I thought there was a builtin, too 13:03:17 *alaricsp* looks again 13:04:32 from the trace egg docs: "This replaces the tracing facilities of CHICKEN versions prior to 4.2.12." 13:05:56 ew, the .so syntax-case.scm compiled to is 4.6mb lol 13:06:27 well, doesn't matter i guess, not like i have to bundle it w/ my apps 13:07:32 and it will help w/ compile times a bit 13:07:48 alvatar [~alvatar@208.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 13:07:59 doesn't chicken use the same syntax-case as most of the others? 13:08:32 portable syntax-case 13:08:42 aka psyntax 13:09:28 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@208.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 13:12:00 jyaan: there was a syntax-case egg for chicken 3. Chicken 4 uses a new built in macro system. See http://wiki.call-cc.org/manual/Modules%20and%20macros 13:12:23 oh ok 13:12:55 There's no syntax-case for Chicken 4 (yet) 13:13:16 ok that explains why what i was trying just now didn't work lol 13:13:19 13:13:22 :) 13:13:25 :-) 13:13:35 syntax-rules is built-in though 13:13:42 yea 13:14:06 i believe gambit uses a modified psyntax for syntax-case 13:14:13 have to load it manually tho 13:14:26 without that loaded, there is only define-macro :( 13:14:35 :( 13:14:42 Chicken 3 was like that iirc 13:14:48 unless the module system is used, which comes with syntax-rules 13:14:55 black hole 13:15:03 Even if you needed syntax-rules you had load a macro expander egg 13:15:21 =/ 13:15:25 But different people used different eggs to get it 13:15:32 It's good to have it as part of core now 13:16:01 yea define-syntax is probably the most likely thing to prevent implementations from being fully r5rs 13:16:45 i think chicken took out the low level macros tho 13:16:57 with only syntax-rules i think i'd want to still have define-macro 13:17:50 jyaan: see http://wiki.call-cc.org/manual/Modules%20and%20macros#explicit-renaming-macros 13:17:51 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/3yap74k 13:18:18 oh hmm 13:18:29 interesting 13:19:29 the annoying part of define-macro in gambit is needing to use gensym all the time 13:19:53 You need to rename where you used to use gensym in ER macros, so that won't change 13:20:01 yea 13:20:20 You'll also need to rename identifiers you're referring to which should be evaluated in the macro's definition environment 13:20:23 what's nasty in gambit is if you load syntax-case, then keyword parameters break lol 13:20:25 define-macro is fundamentally broken in that it doesn't allow that 13:20:38 jyaan: Oh, that bug was in Chicken a while ago too :) 13:20:44 :P 13:20:49 Probably came from psyntax 13:21:06 No, it had to do with how keywords were renamed 13:21:11 Oh 13:21:16 AFAIK Chicken doesn't use psyntax 13:21:32 Doesn't now at least 13:21:33 IIRC, it used back in 3.4 days. 13:21:40 Has built in now 13:21:45 3.x, rather. 13:21:45 Which is nice 13:22:01 mario-goulart: Yeah, but only the syntax-case egg. Other eggs were built on something else 13:22:11 Ah, yes. 13:22:34 Maybe I'll try to debug it later, I'm sure other ppl are annoyed by the #!key bug 13:22:42 ANd would appreciate a pa,tch 13:22:43 patch* 13:24:47 I'm sure it's something really nasty tho, otherwise it would be fixed by now 13:25:03 I wouldn't assume that 13:25:08 Maybe people just work around it 13:25:13 Maybe 13:25:19 I'll find out later anyways 13:25:23 I worked around it too in Chicken :) 13:25:29 (but I also reported the bug) 13:25:40 Yea that's what I currently do, but I don't want to give up my nice keywords :P 13:26:06 If it's like the chicken bug, try putting the keywords in the literals list 13:26:42 No no, I mean after loading syntax-case, keywords just don't work at all 13:26:46 ! 13:26:48 That's bad 13:26:51 Like it affects some global state 13:26:54 Yes, very bad 13:27:11 in parameter lists anyways 13:27:26 can still make keyword objects, but that's not so useful by itself... haha 13:27:57 heh 13:28:08 Yay, I made a keyword! 13:28:11 ... now what? 13:28:16 gambit just needs a "real" define-syntax like chicken did anyways 13:28:25 would probably be better to just start on that 13:28:35 solve the problem the 'right' way 13:29:04 haha 13:29:13 kind of like string->symbol 13:30:27 could use it like (some-func (string->keyword "x") 0) 13:30:34 that would just do (some-func x: 0) 13:31:18 (define (some-func #!key (x 99)) some-code-here) 13:31:26 -!- OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:31:33 so it's kind of like optional parameters 13:32:34 if you don't give a default in the define parameter list, then it's #f if the keyword doesn't appear in the called parameters 13:32:53 er, #f is the default if you don't specify 13:32:59 I think (some-func (string->keyword "x") 0) just works in Chicken 13:33:20 As would (apply some-func (list (string->keyword "x") 0)) 13:34:56 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:40:08 yea 13:40:18 it works by default in gambit too 13:40:21 nice feature 13:52:12 :( seems that the spam detection might actually be disabled on the community wiki... 13:52:16 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 13:52:34 Yeah, I cleaned up some on the main page a while ago 13:52:47 I added regexps just the other day but it's still getting through 13:53:02 Maybe add a simple captcha 13:53:04 but yea, it's so frustrating 13:53:08 i know, we totally need one 13:53:21 but i haven't managed to contact anybody so i can access the server 13:53:22 But not like the lisppaste one. That's insane ;) 13:53:34 just anything about scheme would be fine 13:53:35 Doesn't Shiro run that? 13:53:39 I don't know 13:53:48 But if you can find out that would be _great_ 13:54:02 Try mailing him. I know he wrote the software that runs it 13:54:06 It just makes me so mad to see bots running all over our community's wiki 13:54:14 If he doesn't run it, he certainly knows who does 13:55:47 but yea it seems everybody is just removing the spam manually 13:55:51 that's not the way to go about it lol 13:55:58 we just need something simple like 13:56:20 What's the result of (cons 2 "2") 13:56:26 heh 13:56:34 seriously, spammers won't look it up 13:57:33 the regexps were done all wrong anyways 13:57:40 somebody just listed all the sites, pretty much 13:57:59 there will be a line like somesite\.org then the next line has somesite\.net 13:58:19 obviously all those should be combined, y'know? 13:59:20 jyaan: questions like (cons 2 "2") don't work for schemers. See http://groups.google.com/group/plt-scheme/browse_thread/thread/efe7a75333c6328/f64a0fd4f117ff14 13:59:21 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5lcqvm 13:59:45 You have to ask something SIMPLER. 13:59:45 geez 13:59:50 LOL 13:59:53 you have to be kidding 14:00:13 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@72.163.190.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:00:23 it's just (2 . "2") not hard at all 14:00:53 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 14:01:46 Even failing that, could even just do (* 2 2 2) 14:01:50 Better than nothing 14:02:00 or (< 2 3) or something 14:02:02 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:02:05 jyaan: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ade5bioRWEE/SPzXmRdaxqI/AAAAAAAAABE/JzHOccU05zY/s1600-h/scheme-workshop.png 14:02:06 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/2dedcnp 14:02:39 haha 14:02:39 jyaan: maybe a tip like "please type (2 . "2")" would do the trick. :-) 14:02:47 LOL 14:03:11 kind of embarassing 14:03:20 Oh well, it happens 14:03:33 Heard about those ppl applying for programming jobs lately? 14:03:48 Now a lot of people are screening candidates w/ simple programming tests 14:04:22 With stuff like print all the numbers from 1 to 100 divisible by 3 and 5 haha 14:05:59 Funny article tho 14:06:04 Er, thread 14:08:26 lame 14:08:39 somebody posted spam with the comment "remove spam" 14:08:40 lol 14:09:31 Btw, who is shiro? 14:09:43 And what's the mail 14:09:47 Gauche's author 14:09:51 Check out practical-scheme.net 14:09:51 Ohh ok 14:10:00 teurastaja [~teurastaj@modemcable173.144-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 14:12:35 Hm. What's wrong with symbols, so that we need sfi-88, keywords and stuff? 14:12:55 Keyword arguments? 14:13:28 basically what you get from python's keywords 14:14:03 Why can't we just use symbols for keyword arguments? 14:14:14 it's ugly i guess 14:14:28 and I'd rather be able to set the defaults and stuff like that, rather that do it manually 14:14:38 rather than* 14:14:54 i want a good explanation of macros both hygienic and old lisp style for a precise view of how scheme repls them 14:16:11 Mr-Cat: We could, but I imagine that opens up a can of worms in deciding whether or not a symbol is a keyword or not 14:16:46 s/keyword or not/keyword/ 14:17:23 Ah, I see 14:17:24 teurastaja: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/chicken-users/2008-04/msg00013.html might be useful 14:17:28 keywords just look nicer anyways 14:17:46 (the-func arg1: 234 arg2: "the-value") 14:18:00 or (the-func 'arg1 234 'arg2 "the-value") 14:18:13 it isn't clear that the symbols aren't arguments themselves 14:18:29 Yes, I see now. Thanks. 14:18:41 don't forget these have to coexist with #!rest and #!optional parameters, too :P 14:21:06 (define (test-func mandat-var #!key (key-var "default-value")) (format #t "~a ~a~%" mandat-var key-var) (newline)) 14:21:34 (test-func 9) would print out: 9 default-value 14:21:53 (test-func 9 9) would give you 9 9 14:27:02 thanks sjamaan im considering using chicken scheme looks like what i need 14:27:13 chicken is pretty nice 14:27:26 teurastaja: You're welcome 14:27:28 btw, to get history and completion just install the readline egg 14:27:39 then, (use readline) 14:27:40 Or use emacs ;) 14:27:41 Stop. But don't the things go wrong when we're trying to pass a keyword-object as a parameter value? 14:27:47 (use emacs) 14:27:49 :) 14:27:54 (current-input-port (make-gnu-readline-port)) 14:27:57 I think that's how you do it 14:28:01 Ya 14:28:05 Emacs is better :P 14:28:25 (current-input-port (make-gnu-readline-port)) seriously? 14:28:26 what do you mean 14:28:29 yea lol 14:28:37 that's how you activate it 14:28:47 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 14:28:47 the keyword isn't a parameter 14:28:58 I should take a more closer look at srfi-89, I think 14:29:02 it's telling the function _which_ keyword parameter you're setting 14:29:08 s/more closer/closer/ 14:29:09 You can change the order around 14:29:17 ok hold on im gonna check if portmasters done updating and if my src trees up to date 14:29:25 Mr-Cat: Yes that thought had occured to me as well 14:29:47 (define (test #!key (x 0) (y 1)) ...) with that you can call it as (test y: 234 x: 234234) 14:30:02 and x and y will get the correct arguments 14:30:07 But if keywords are intrinsic to the syntax of lambda, and calling procedures and not a first class value it should work out 14:30:15 I mean should we interpret (func arg1: arg2:) as a syntax error or as passing arg2: as a value of arg1: ? 14:30:54 if it doesn't have : on the end it isn't a keyword 14:30:57 hail beastie! 14:31:15 and if it isn't a keyword specified by the function definition, it's an error 14:31:19 sir_lewk, earlier you said that you had trouble building MIT Scheme. What did you try, and what was the trouble? 14:32:26 installing mit-scheme with freebsd is straightforward enough:P 14:34:29 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:59 -!- jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:40:36 Mr-Cat, here is an argument in favour of a type of object called keywords with an evaluation rule different from that of symbols: they don't require quotation. Consequently, one can design a macro in which a particular part syntactically takes a keyword, and leave open the possibility of actually evaluating that part of the macro so that it semantically takes a keyword instead. 14:42:28 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-63.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:44:26 -!- ski [~slj@c-3810e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:47:46 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-237-110.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:48:15 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-237-110.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:51:45 alvatar [~alvatar@208.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 14:52:27 adadglgmut [~steve@cpe-65-25-14-11.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:52:28 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5adafe9d.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 14:52:39 Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-109-7.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 14:53:47 jlongster [~user@c-71-204-23-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:56:47 -!- alvatar 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now known as Baughn 22:40:10 IJP [~Ian@host109-153-22-154.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 22:41:03 -!- fowlduck [~fowlduck@2002:4547:f82e:0:fa1e:dfff:fed7:9dc1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:24 -!- adadglgmut [~steve@cpe-65-25-14-11.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:44:47 Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 22:46:24 timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.204] has joined #scheme 22:51:40 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:52:26 abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has joined #scheme 22:57:25 IJP: pong 22:58:50 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5adafe9d.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 22:58:51 rotty: actually, I was going to ask what needed to be done to get (wak private include) to work with mosh 22:58:59 but it appears you pushed that the other day 23:01:45 -!- OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:02:32 23:03:51 IJP: yep, wgd alerted me to the missing mosh support (had that lying around unpushed) 23:05:00 I wasn't sure how it would work, since I seem to recall there being some hygiene problems with Derick's include macro 23:06:19 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p57B5B3D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:12:00 -!- mmc [~michal@cs181183044.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:15:06 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-19-234-140.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: [TalkSoup] Get it today: http://talksoup.aeruder.net] 23:15:42 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 23:16:19 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 23:16:23 Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-109-7.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 23:16:33 abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has joined #scheme 23:17:35 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:17:51 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 23:24:34 _Pb [4b83c2ba@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 23:28:08 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.204] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 23:38:29 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:39:18 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 23:40:03 abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has joined #scheme 23:42:29 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:45:11 <_Pb> what is the logic behind printing out a proper list? 23:46:20 <_Pb> if you print out a '(' when the nth-cdr is nil, then you end up with lots of '(''s 23:47:35 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.234] has joined #scheme 23:54:03 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:56:01 -!- Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-109-7.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: REALITY IS TEARING ITSELF ASUNDER, BUT I MUST RACE]