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You? 03:28:27 Order of evaluation bug -- never noticed because the compiler chose the right order! But what's really frustrating is that this bug is not, in fact, the source of the heap corruption symptoms that I'm seeing. 03:29:02 You're taking me back to about 1990. 03:29:52 Riastradh: What was being mutated out of order? 03:29:57 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:30:41 (vector-ref (table-buckets table) (compute-hash! table key)) 03:31:41 COMPUTE-HASH! may trigger rehashing, which may call SET-TABLE-BUCKETS!. But the compiler did the right thing and evaluated the call to COMPUTE-HASH! first, because it is usually an out-of-line procedure call, or just more complex to evaluate. 03:32:10 ...whereas TABLE-BUCKETS is a simple open-coded memory reference. 03:32:54 -!- hypercube32 [~hypercube@169-91.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:37:26 purcell [~user@61.247.51.77] has joined #scheme 03:37:40 Whereas normal left-to-right order would've been a bug. 03:38:17 Evaluating it left-to-right would have exhibited the bug. The bug is there whatever order the system evaluates the operands in. 03:39:26 Right. Though the bug would be triggered rarely in any case. 03:42:55 It shouldn't be too difficult to generate warnings for that. 03:45:27 How? 03:46:38 Trace all parameters for mutations, and see if the mutated variables/objects are referenced by other parameters. 03:47:14 (let ((buckets (table-buckets table))) (vector-ref buckets (compute-hash! table key))) would require fancier analysis 03:47:38 That expression is unambiguous. 03:48:00 True, but it's logically incorrect. 03:48:16 Yes, but in order to signal a warning for it, you need telepathy. 03:48:32 I'm working on that ;) 03:49:27 The closest I think you could get is to signal a warning that you can't prove the reference safe, so that it will require a length check, because COMPUTE-HASH! may (1) expand the bucket vector, and (2) return an index out of the bounds of the old bucket vector. 03:49:36 s/length check/index check/1 03:54:04 That's easy, because in general the compiler won't be able to prove the vector index is safe. 03:54:27 The hard part is being able to prove it safe often enough that such a warning would be meaningful. 04:02:16 -!- hosh_office [~hosh@c-71-204-27-0.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:08:06 Some day. 04:08:33 I hope to get there with Chibi. 04:16:09 hosh_office [~hosh@c-71-204-27-0.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:19:14 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-FIVE-THIRTY-SEVEN.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:19:58 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-142.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:20:33 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-142.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:23:39 saccade_ [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-56-178.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 04:27:51 firebalrog [~firebalro@ip70-173-83-246.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #scheme 04:34:15 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-56-178.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:40:01 saccade_ [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-FIVE-THIRTY-SEVEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:42:22 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 04:42:59 seangrove [~user@184.104.14.3] has joined #scheme 04:48:50 -!- firebalrog [~firebalro@ip70-173-83-246.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:30 -!- seangrove [~user@184.104.14.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:56:21 antoszka_ [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 04:56:41 -!- luz [~davids@201.17.88.176] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 04:59:03 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:01:07 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:18:21 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:20:37 george_ [~george@189.107.132.34] has joined #scheme 05:20:55 -!- summersault [~george@189.107.162.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:21:24 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #scheme 05:21:42 IceD^ [~iced@live.bn.by] has joined #scheme 05:22:03 any more-less standard way to know what implementation of r6rs we are running? 05:22:11 at least for reasonable subset 05:27:36 there are various tricks, and you can always use the ..sls hack 05:30:27 purcell` [~user@61.247.51.77] has joined #scheme 05:30:29 -!- purcell [~user@61.247.51.77] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:31:28 purcell`` [~user@61.247.51.77] has joined #scheme 05:31:30 -!- purcell` [~user@61.247.51.77] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:33:53 -!- purcell`` [~user@61.247.51.77] has left #scheme 05:48:38 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:05:10 Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 06:05:12 -!- Hal9k [~Lernaean@24-107-60-232.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 06:05:12 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 06:14:26 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:16:19 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 06:17:15 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 06:18:07 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-0-142.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:22:10 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-FIVE-THIRTY-SEVEN.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:27:11 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:27:38 saccade_ [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-56-178.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 06:28:11 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 06:32:38 -!- antoszka_ [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 06:34:39 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-56-178.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:35:23 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-1-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 06:35:47 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 06:36:47 -!- niko [~niko@freenode/staff/niko] has quit [Ping timeout: 619 seconds] 06:37:55 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-88-14.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:39:37 saccade_ [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-FIVE-THIRTY-SEVEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:41:22 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:53:19 -!- Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-109-7.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: REALITY IS TEARING ITSELF ASUNDER, BUT I MUST RACE] 07:03:01 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:04:31 -!- futilius [~otheruser@2001:470:d:128:216:3eff:fe86:c70e] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:10:18 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 14:10:18 14:10:18 -!- names: ccl-logbot femtoo MrFahrenheit Elench dfkjjkfd luz jay-mccarthy nowhere_man askhader alaricsp jgracin soupdragon karme alvatar saccade_ chittoor fradgers- pavelludiq stis gravicappa niko hohoho elderK dzhus Riastradh preflex futilius antoszka gnomon Hal9k IceD^ george_ hosh_office timj_ xwl_ acarrico atomx eli metasyntax martinhex bremner ray mmc pchrist bill_h fda314925 copumpkin ASau metasyntax` NNshag markatto bzzbzz EbiDK rotty Blkt ineiros eldragon 14:10:18 -!- names: masm ASau` Obfuscate joast leppie TE263w` TR2N sladegen ineiros_ jimrees_ weinholt REPLeffect rrm3 rdd ski tessier ToxicFrog pigoz Delita MichaelRaskin saccade Baughn mhoye specbot lisppaste mario-goulart Modius stepnem incubot klutometis offby1 aoh foof shardz golgotha zbigniew emma rapacity cipher elly elf felipe broquaint sjamaan clog moell spacebat Khisanth yosafbridge cthuluh Adrinael jensn eno gabot mornfall csmrfx_ inimino DerGuteMoritz z0d 14:10:18 -!- names: Axioplase roderic samth pjb duncanm vinnana certainty Pepe_ rudybot kloeri zeroish lusory ecraven nasloc__ rmrfchik Leonidas mbishop chandler sloyd XTL C-Keen erg_ tizoc 14:17:53 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-200-247.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:18:03 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-200-247.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:21:34 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.198.16] has quit [Quit: Time left until the Epochalypse: 27yrs 21wks 6days 18hrs 52mins 7secs] 14:27:45 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 14:36:40 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:32 -!- bremner [~bremner@yantan.tethera.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 14:39:40 bremner [~bremner@yantan.tethera.net] has joined #scheme 14:52:55 alvatar, there is no notion at run-time of `the current environment'. The environment is a static property of programs. Any Scheme system in which there is a procedure to get at `the current environment' at run-time has a bug or at least a misdesign. 14:53:14 alvatar, what is the problem you are trying to solve of which you believe getting at `the current environment' is a subproblem? 14:54:30 chandler, minion's gone pining for the fjords! 14:57:03 hi Riastradh 14:57:37 Riastradh: well, first of all, is clear I've never used eval, after some months using Scheme. 14:58:04 Riastradh: my intention is to be able to execute a function whose name I know in runtime as a string or symbol 14:58:56 something like (symbol->identifier) 14:58:57 OK. So list the procedures you want to be able to call, and the names by which you want to be able to call them: (define the-callable-procedures (list (list 'FOO +) (list 'BAR -) (list 'CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION call-with-current-continuation) ...)) 14:59:50 *offby1* wonders why this question comes up so frequently 15:00:00 maybe because it's easy to do in languages like python? 15:00:02 offby1: is a kind of design I try to avoid actually 15:00:20 but this time would be nice, just this time :P 15:00:54 I want to check if an identifier is defined and execute it if its a procedure 15:01:01 Is your task actually to take arbitrary code as user input and evaluate it? If so, then use EVAL. If not, don't. 15:01:17 I can do something like (if (eval 'id) ((eval 'id))) 15:01:31 There is no notion of asking whether a name is defined at run-time in Scheme -- the associations between names and their meanings don't even *exist* at run-time. 15:02:46 Here is a valid implementation strategy for evaluating (lambda (x) (lambda (y) x)): first translate it into (lambda 1 (lambda 1 (: 1 0))). Then evaluate that, where (lambda n ...) yields a procedure of n parameters, and (: n m) looks for the variable bound n lambdas back and m variables over. 15:02:47 firebalrog [~firebalro@166.205.8.86] has joined #scheme 15:03:11 Rather, the value of (: n m) is the value of the mth argument passed to the nth enclosing lambda. 15:03:17 -!- soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Quit: soupdragon] 15:03:46 So, I ask again: what is the problem of which you believe using EVAL to be a subproblem? 15:06:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:07 Riastradh: I don't really understand (lambda 1 (lambda 1 (: 1 0))) 15:07:09 :S 15:07:43 Riastradh: well I can do what I want to do with an association list of symbols and procedures, of course 15:07:48 It's just like (lambda (x) (lambda (y) x)), except that there are no names involved. 15:08:57 the point is I'd like that a client code passes a string or symbol as an argument to a function defined in another module that in turn executes the code 15:09:07 Instead of using a name to refer to the first argument that was passed to the outer lambda, we use a number: (: 1 0) asks for argument 0 to the lambda 1 level up. (If you start at the reference to x in (lambda (x) (lambda (y) x)), the nearest enclosing lambda (0 levels up) is (lambda (y) ...); the next nearest enclosing lambda (1) is (lambda (x) ...).) 15:09:08 so the client code doesn't know anything about those procedures 15:09:40 Riastradh: thanks for the explanation, I didn't see this notation before 15:10:38 (This, by the way, is the germ of the way that most Scheme compilers work. Any names left after compilation exist only for debugging purposes, and may be discarded without changing the semantics of programs.) 15:11:05 I see, I guess that's chapter 4 and 5 of SICP ;) 15:12:01 Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-109-7.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 15:12:12 so, besides using a-lists, is this achievable with eval? 15:12:24 even though is probably a source of missuse 15:12:29 No. 15:12:37 okay 15:12:53 so eval... is just for evaluating basic code?? 15:12:54 (That's not really true, but EVAL won't help you to solve your problem any more than ASSQ will.) 15:13:11 ok, I agree 15:13:12 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:13:15 It is for evaluating code, yes. Unless the code comes in as user input, there isn't really any reason to use it. 15:13:43 yes, that's clear, as I could use almost every bit of R5RS without needing eval 15:15:42 Riastradh: no pattern or common use besides the user input you mention? 15:16:24 ew/scheme" "http://ccl.clozure.co 15:16:25 compilers work. Any names left after compilation exist only for 15:16:25 debugging purposes, and may be discarded without changing the 15:16:28 semantics of programs.) [15:10] 15:16:31 I see, I guess that's chapter 4 and 5 of SICP ;) [15:11] 15:16:38 Hi, foof. 15:16:53 you had problem with middle button in linux? 15:16:58 Cat on your mouse? 15:19:23 george__ [~george@189.107.228.36] has joined #scheme 15:19:47 -!- george_ [~george@189.107.132.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:21:27 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 15:24:52 -!- george__ [~george@189.107.228.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:25:40 -!- IceD^ [~iced@live.bn.by] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:34:33 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:34:42 -!- Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-109-7.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: REALITY IS TEARING ITSELF ASUNDER, BUT I MUST RACE] 15:35:43 george__ [~george@189.107.227.174] has joined #scheme 15:37:36 -!- bill_h [~hager@c-98-231-14-62.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:39:12 bill_h 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18:19:04 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:20:42 saccade_ [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-82-90.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 18:25:48 certaint1 [~closure@dslc-082-082-134-143.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 18:26:03 -!- certaint1 is now known as certainty|home 18:27:19 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:39:27 IceD^ [~iced@live.bn.by] has joined #scheme 18:39:45 foof, what are the tricks for detecting r6rs impl? 18:40:57 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@dhcp-18-111-82-90.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:41:42 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #scheme 18:45:25 abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.107.147] has joined #scheme 18:57:56 ps $$ | grep icarus 18:58:12 ikarus 18:58:37 iqarus 19:00:38 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@95-26-243-67.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:01 fowlduck [~fowlduck@2002:4547:f82e:0:fa1e:dfff:fed7:9dc1] has joined #scheme 19:07:45 -!- certainty|home [~closure@dslc-082-082-134-143.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:09:57 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:16:24 jonrafkind: What does $$ do in ps? 19:17:26 Mr-Cat, nothing; it's a Bash environment variable containing the pid of the current process. 19:17:46 Ah, thanks 19:23:33 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:25:08 that was a joke, please dont use that "trick" :p 19:30:26 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-132-104.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: bye bye] 19:31:07 EbiDK_ [~ebi@3e6b7ac3.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #scheme 19:31:38 incubot: The 2010 Scheme Workshop will be held in Montreal in less than 4 days from now. 19:31:43 I guess no one here is planning to go to brandial06 (workshop on semantics and pragmatics of dialogue, September 2006)? :-] 19:33:01 -!- EbiDK [~ebi@3e6b7ac3.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:34:30 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 19:40:22 jonrafkind, I got it :) 19:40:59 the problem is that I really need cross-impl ffi for ypsilon/racket/larceny at least 19:41:02 -!- EbiDK_ is now known as EbiDK 19:41:23 so it'd be good to have possibility to detect impl 19:43:57 What's wrong with the module.impl.sls trick? 19:45:40 I don't know about that trick 19:45:47 can you please shoe me example 19:48:03 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 19:48:30 Suppose I have a library (foo) in foo.sls that needs implementation dependant functionality 19:49:29 Then I could wrap them up in modules such as compat.ikarus.sls, compat.ypsilon.sls and so on and then import from (compat) 19:49:55 err 19:50:04 how to import ;) 19:50:18 with (import (compat)) 19:50:23 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-235.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:50:25 or (import (foo)) will import both foo and foo.ypsilon 19:50:47 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-235.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 19:50:47 no, foo.IMPL usually takes precedence 19:51:34 well, that usually makes me nervous ;) 19:52:09 but let me test 19:55:20 jcowan [c6b912cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.185.18.207] has joined #scheme 19:55:48 hwaet! 19:55:52 saccade_ [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THIRTY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:57:38 well - how to tell scheme where to search for libraries 19:57:41 or what are defaults 19:57:54 It's implementation-specific. 19:58:08 schmir [~schmir@p54A91B07.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:58:27 well 19:58:32 who designed r6rs 19:58:38 do they do any real work 19:58:43 or just teach in uni 19:59:07 IceD^: It's environment variables unfortunately 19:59:32 which variables? :) 19:59:44 any "how to write your scheme lib" around? 19:59:51 you're not going to like the answer 19:59:58 :))) 20:00:00 they all have a different on 20:00:02 *one 20:00:21 1) start your own scheme implementation 2) try to standardize with rNrs 3) give up and do whatever you want 20:01:50 Does Derick Eddingtons pending SRFI for this specify an environment variable? 20:02:46 now I think that CL zealots decided to kill scheme and developed as imptactical as possible r6rs 20:04:52 Dear me, no. 20:05:30 (sarcasm) 20:06:09 soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #scheme 20:09:11 jcowan: I notice that your sequences proposal uses SRFI 43 vector-map and vector-for-each. Can I ask why you didn't use the R6RS versions? 20:09:24 Probably ignorance. 20:09:24 Since you're going for consistency and all 20:11:33 Is this about what to do when all the source vectors are different lengths? 20:11:47 no, the extra argument :) 20:12:26 (lambda (index vec1 vec2) ..) vs (lambda (vec1 vec2 ...) ...) 20:12:40 -!- george__ [~george@189.107.204.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:12:46 george__ [~george@189.107.175.213] has joined #scheme 20:12:59 although the different lengths would also be an issue 20:13:33 For the different lengths, I'm used to thinking about srfi-1 map, which is also shortest-length. 20:14:56 I did miss the different arguments to the mapper completely. 20:15:39 I guess I'm agnostic about the different lengths, although I have taken advantage of this behaviour in the past 20:16:35 -!- Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:16:55 string-map in srfi 13 avoids this issue by only allowing one string 20:17:01 I think it's the sensible thing to do and should Just WOrk. 20:17:37 yes, I think so 20:19:16 Presumably, string-map would also have this behaviour since you've marked it (proposed) rather than (srfi 13) 20:21:30 aidalgol [~user@118.148.172.37] has joined #scheme 20:22:27 malcolmci [~malcolmci@203.171.96.17.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #scheme 20:28:56 ak70 [~ak70@80.77.204.157] has joined #scheme 20:30:02 bgs101 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 20:30:04 Yes. 20:30:26 What's your view of the r6rs vs. srfi 43 mapper arguments? 20:34:34 Well, I would prefer the r6rs variant 20:35:13 -!- aidalgol [~user@118.148.172.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:35:19 It matches with srfi 1's map and kinda/almost like srfi 13 20:35:32 if srfi 13 admitted multiple strings 20:36:02 -!- bgs101 is now known as bgs100 20:36:36 hell even s9 does it the r6rs way 20:36:57 -!- ak70 [~ak70@80.77.204.157] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:37:29 *jcowan* nods. 20:37:48 s9 even stops on the shortest vector, didn't expect that 20:38:18 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-138-98.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:46:20 -!- malcolmci [~malcolmci@203.171.96.17.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:54:03 -!- IceD^ [~iced@live.bn.by] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:43 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-25-54.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:57:24 martin_hex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:57:27 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:57:28 -!- martin_hex is now known as martinhex 20:57:50 e-future_ [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #scheme 20:58:01 -!- XTL [t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:58:01 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:58:01 -!- futilius [~otheruser@2001:470:d:128:216:3eff:fe86:c70e] has quit 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hypercube32 [~hypercube@169-91.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:40:44 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 22:41:08 schmir [~schmir@p54A91B07.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:43:48 oops, sorry about the cat 22:46:51 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-161-254.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 22:48:37 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-235.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:49:06 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-235.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 22:53:55 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-161-254.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:55:23 -!- Azuvix [~Azuvix@174-19-234-140.bois.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: [TalkSoup] Get it today: http://talksoup.aeruder.net] 22:56:41 foof: Maybe you should enable the cats lock on your keyboard. 22:57:41 laurus [~laurus@c-68-40-207-109.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:58:04 chandler: I've heard of such software - is there any for OS X? 22:58:06 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A91B07.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:08 Is Scheme used for Statistics or Econometrics work at all? I know there is an old program called XLispStat, but are there any ones currently being updated or in use? 22:58:39 foof: I have no idea; it was just an excuse to make a silly pun. 22:59:01 oh... sorry, pre-coffee 23:01:14 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:05:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-166-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:08:28 How does one represent a matrix in Scheme? 23:09:04 Or perform linear algebra operations for that matter 23:09:08 laurus: The same as in C - either a flat vector of numbers with indexing tricks, or a vector of vectors. 23:09:15 foof, ah, okay 23:09:26 I'm trying to figure out how hard it would be to do statistics work in Scheme 23:09:34 SRFI-25 provides a general array library. 23:09:41 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #scheme 23:09:57 There are basic linear algebra operations in Gauche's gauche.array module. 23:10:12 How portable is Scheme code across implementations? 23:10:25 Honestly I don't understand why there are so many different "implementations" and how that affects the code one writes 23:10:39 Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-109-7.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 23:11:17 laurus: a lot of the implementations solve specific niches, some are just redundant 23:11:25 Okay, that's good to know 23:11:41 Is there a way to use Gnuplot from Scheme? 23:12:18 as a sub-process? sure, though not portably. 23:12:18 I wish someone had just implemented XLispStat in Scheme and kept the project alive, that would be perfect! 23:12:53 why don't you port it? :) 23:13:01 Well I'm thinking about it, to be honest 23:13:28 I wish all of these different implementations could join together or something 23:14:13 laurus: most of us want that, but we want 'our' scheme to be the one we join together on ;) 23:14:19 IJP, hah, ok 23:16:08 Most implementations have some sort of gaping flaw. For the fast compilers this is often lack of syntax-rules, modules, threads or a usable repl. 23:17:07 For the interpreters, speed alone is a big issue. 23:17:19 Racket is the most well-rounded. 23:17:45 Hmm, I see 23:17:53 I had Guile installed since it's the GNU one 23:17:59 If you relax the threads constraint to include non-parallel threads, Gambit is fairly well rounded too. 23:18:19 Gambit has no syntax-rules, which for me is a deal breaker. 23:18:49 Hm? Sure it does; annoyingly you have to pass it a "please be hygienic" option to get it though. 23:19:00 The stable version of Guile has gaping flaws in its module system (particularly with regard to hygiene) and speed. 23:19:15 Well, unless you load the monstrous psyntax, which is slow and breaks other parts of gambit. 23:19:47 chandler, good to know 23:20:21 Plus Gambit has no module system. 23:20:24 It's a shame that people choose Guile because it's the "GNU Scheme", especially when there's a much better GNU option: MIT Scheme. 23:20:43 foof: I wasn't aware of the breakage; can you describe it better? 23:20:51 Chicken at least has native hygiene and modules, though you need to pass a "please usethe full numeric tower" option. 23:20:55 chandler, yeah, I don't like what they're trying to do with Guile actually 23:21:12 They seem to be spending a lot of time on making it a JVM-like platform 23:21:35 There are some pretty good posts by a guy named Thomas Lord explaining why that is somewhat futile 23:21:35 foof: True; Chicken is probably more recommendable. 23:22:15 Heh. Disregard that commentary; the direction that Guile 2.0 is heading is well-founded. 23:22:22 MIT Scheme is awesome, and completely unusable on 32-bit systems if you want to use a modestly large heap. 23:22:23 chandler, oh really? 23:23:21 The multi-language VM will likely lead to a version of GNU Emacs that uses Guile as an elisp implementation, which will in turn allow using Scheme in Emacs natively as well. 23:23:32 And JavaScript too. 23:23:37 chandler, yeah, I know about that 23:23:53 But how is that related to the module system problems you mentioned? 23:23:53 The other enhancements to Guile 2.0 make it a very well-rounded implementation. 23:23:57 Ah, ok :) 23:24:01 Great, I'll use it then 23:24:07 chandler: I forget because it changes, but some of Gambit's core syntax doesn't work with psyntax, and I think you lose all source info (which is a shame because Gambit's debugger is awesome). 23:24:10 The module system problems relate to the stable version, not the most recent beta! 23:24:17 Cool :) 23:24:19 If you're using the beta, stick with it and be sure to report bugs to the Guile list. 23:24:26 I will :) 23:24:44 It's 1.8.x that's (sorry, wingo) horrid. 23:25:08 foof: Ah, yes, I remember the source-location problem. 23:25:40 Actually, I can never find anything wrong with Larceny, though that may only be because I don't use it enough :) 23:26:34 foof: MIT Scheme's gaping hole is fortunately solved on most modern hardware. Even the Atom netbooks have finally gone 64-bit. 23:26:59 In a few years, it'll seem like a gaping hole in a program that runs really poorly on 16-bit processors under DOS real mode. :-) 23:27:54 jcw [4b83c2ba@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 23:28:01 has anyone here used scheme in a cgi script? 23:28:08 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 23:28:49 chandler, what do you think about the idea of writing some statistical functions in Scheme based on the old XLispStat code? 23:29:07 jcw: Why would you do that? CGI isn't used very frequently these days; most people use a better-performing technique. 23:29:47 chandler: i'm on a cheap shared host, guile is pre-installed on it, i want to attempt writing a blog in it 23:29:55 but yeah, CGI is slow and outdated 23:29:56 jcw, never seriously; only in jest. 23:30:02 jcw, you ROCK! 23:30:08 That sounds like such a great project 23:30:09 haha, thank you? 23:30:15 laurus: It sounds like a great idea. I haven't done much statistical programming, but my impression from conversing with those who have is that many people use R these days due to an impressive library of built-ins and existing source, but chafe at the language a bit. 23:30:25 chandler, yes that is the case 23:30:33 There is quite a bit of stuff available for Python as well 23:30:40 Which somewhat "addresses" that concern 23:32:21 I just think it would be fun to program some of this stuff myself 23:34:08 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@202-180-88-252.callplus.net.nz] has joined #scheme 23:34:52 jcw: Honestly, if that was the choice available to me I think I'd find another host. :-) 23:35:43 chandler: hosts that support scheme or lisp tend to be expensive, I'm only paying $5 a month 23:36:00 plus, I'm using blosxom right now, which is a perl-cgi script and runs pretty well 23:36:20 and I like doing things in an obsolete or arcane manner 23:37:02 Ugh why did they rename PLT Scheme to "Racket" ? 23:37:44 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:37:55 Because it's a family of languages, and the primary language is no longer really Scheme. 23:38:07 foof, oh 23:38:13 Someone wrote a GNUPlot library for it 23:38:18 That's why I was asking 23:39:41 jcw: I suppose it depends on your definition of "expensive". I'd rather pay $20/mo for a virtualized server than $5/mo for shared hosting. I believe there are some cheaper virtualized offerings these days, though I don't know anything about them. 23:40:07 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:41:15 chandler, take a look at http://www.stat.ucla.edu/xlispstat/code 23:41:23 I can't believe that all of that code has just been thrown away :( 23:41:29 It breaks my heart to look at it 23:43:10 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:43:22 chandler: yeah, vps' are pretty cheap these days. still, won't be able to afford that during the school year 23:43:55 I've heard decent things about prgmr.com among cheap VPSes; you might want to get on their wait list if you're interested. http://prgmr.com/xen/ 23:45:09 chandler: :0 thank you! 23:45:55 The one-year prepayment looks particularly attractive. 128M is probably a better choice than 64M, even if it pushes up the price a bit. 23:47:12 yeah 23:47:55 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #scheme 23:48:41 Gotta go, thanks for the advice! 23:48:42 -!- laurus [~laurus@c-68-40-207-109.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:58:53 Komi [Komi@83.231.83.83] has joined #scheme