00:01:50 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 00:08:07 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:10:36 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:15:41 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:19:14 -!- mmc [~michal@109.112.13.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:19:37 -!- saccade [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THIRTY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:24:31 Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-120-72.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 00:27:09 mmc [~michal@109.116.130.220] has joined #scheme 00:35:58 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #scheme 00:36:30 psiblue [~psiblue@174.35.167.189] has joined #scheme 00:37:04 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.140.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:38:11 Got a question (I'm using r6rs/drRacket). How can I redefine syntactic 'keywords' such as set! or lambda? Specifically I'm looking to create a library which exports modified versions of them 00:38:42 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.156.81] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:40:24 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Client Quit] 00:46:05 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 00:47:14 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #scheme 00:47:19 Nobody appears interested in my question - is it unclear in some way? 00:47:21 psiblue: for that you will need to use either syntax-rules or syntax-case 00:47:32 psiblue: no, just very quiet on here 00:47:33 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:48:04 @lJP: the problem is that I get an error saying that set! is already defined, for example 00:48:31 when you import your library? 00:48:37 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #scheme 00:48:37 That's correct 00:48:55 that will be because you will be importing the same name from two different libraries 00:49:13 you will probably need to use (except (rnrs) set! lambda) 00:49:36 That would be on import though? 00:49:43 yes 00:49:53 in the script that uses your library, not the library 00:50:07 ventonegro [~alex@c93478ea.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 00:50:12 Is there a way to do something similar to that, but with the library itself? 00:50:26 For example, can I export all of rnrs except set! then export my own set! 00:50:38 You can, but it will be a rather long file 00:50:58 I saw this: http://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/mailarch/plt-scheme-2001/msg01295.html 00:51:06 Can I do something like that? 00:51:31 not with the r6rs language, I don't think 00:52:38 Hmm. What about creating a second library that imports (except (rnrs set!) lambda) like you said, and then exports everything it has imported. Can I do that? 00:54:02 well yes, but like I said it will be pretty long 00:54:31 Is there a way to get around that some way using a macro? 00:54:42 I guess not actually 00:54:46 since the exports go before the body 00:55:21 nope :( 00:55:44 Well that kind of sucks... is there any other solution than hardcoding everything provided by rnrs? 00:57:05 just (except (rnrs) lambda set!) in the files that want to user your library I guess 00:57:08 *use 00:57:24 not exactly very user-friendly though (ie for the library user) 00:58:21 "Here's my library - it extends some of the features that come with r6rs. Super easy to use, you just import it... then add this obnoxious block of code at the top of each of your source files, which you'll have to change whenever I update the library." 00:58:33 -!- foof` is now known as foof 00:59:14 Well, thanks for the help anyways :) 00:59:28 why would it change whenever you update the library? 00:59:47 unless you are continuously shadowing more of the r6rs? 00:59:55 Right 01:00:25 then re-exporting it is probably the most "user-friendly" method 01:00:45 Will r6rs ever be changed? 01:01:09 If so I worry that re-exporting it would break my library if r6rs gets changed somehow... 01:02:00 I don't think it will be 01:02:15 Hmm. Alright - well I g2g for now, so thanks again for your help 01:02:28 no problem 01:02:47 I'll consider re-exporting, as I can probably automate it 01:02:56 Oh actually 01:03:15 I could probably just do that for certain parts of rnrs (eg. base) 01:03:21 Anyways - g2g, thanks again 01:03:24 -!- psiblue [~psiblue@174.35.167.189] has quit [Quit: Q: What´s the difference between an Irish wedding and an Irish wake? 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has quit [*.net *.split] 03:28:38 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:30:27 sad0ur [~sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #scheme 03:31:55 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-187-160.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 03:31:55 mauke [~mauke@p3m/member/mauke] has joined #scheme 04:01:31 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@120.156.16.164] has quit [Quit: snarkyboojum] 04:02:21 -!- luz [~davids@201.17.88.176] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 04:05:12 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@120.155.237.230] has joined #scheme 04:07:18 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-177-53.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:11:09 adadglgmut [~steve@cpe-174-100-207-183.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:12:58 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-177-53.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:16:03 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 04:20:00 asarch [~asarch@189.188.157.195] has joined #scheme 04:24:26 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-187-160.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:24:26 -!- mauke [~mauke@p3m/member/mauke] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:24:49 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 04:29:48 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-187-160.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 04:29:48 mauke [~mauke@p3m/member/mauke] has joined #scheme 04:39:07 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:39:07 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.157.195] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:46:09 I'm working with guile; (open-file "test" "w") returns # and creates the file 'test'. is 6 the port? (write "foobar" 6) returns wrong-type-arg for the 6. 04:46:40 you probably want to pass the result of `open-file' to write 04:46:45 I assume you want something like (let ((f (open-file "test" "w"))) (write "foobar" f)) 04:46:51 curse jonrafkind and his fast fingers 04:46:52 most likely 6 is the file descriptor number 04:46:54 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:46:57 i win all typing races! 04:47:10 waltermai: you're never supposed to use the stuff that you see inside of #< and > 04:47:18 it's there just for your edification 04:47:37 jonrafkind: I'm trying to do all this sequentially at the guile prompt to figure this ports stuff out. eventually I 04:47:49 (define f (open-file "test" "w")) 04:47:50 'll probably be doing something more like that. 04:47:53 (write "foobar" f) 04:47:59 waltermai: actually, guile probably has a with-open-file form, which would be even better to use, since it'll guarantee that the file will get closed, even if there are exceptions 04:48:25 how do you pronounce guile. i always think of "gwee-ley" 04:48:46 Guy'll 04:48:49 because thats what my brothers used to call the street fighter 2 character (we knew it was "guy-uhl") 04:48:51 rudybot: eval (call-with-output-file "/tmp/x" (lambda (op) (write "Hey you" op))) 04:48:52 *offby1: error: call-with-output-file: `write' access denied for /tmp/x 04:49:02 alrighty! Thank you everybody! I'm off to try it out.. jonrafkind: *nod offby1* 04:49:12 *jonrafkind* headbutt 04:49:18 *offby1* highfive 04:49:22 never could smell a joke. 04:49:31 mine stink 04:51:59 consider the source 04:52:01 *mbishop* ducks 04:53:52 *Axioplase* cats 04:54:10 I always assumed that Guile was pronounced exactly like the English word 'guile'. :P 04:54:43 sooooo, all of that seems to work, but (write "foobar" f) actually puts the quotations in the file, while (write "\nfoobar\n" f) adds a quotation to the first line then puts 'foobar' on the second line without the quotations... what gives? 04:55:04 waltermai: yeah, that's what WRITE does. 04:55:14 *offby1* hurls his stinky dentures ... 04:55:32 waltermai: try "display" instead of "write" 04:55:41 Err, though you should have the last quote on the third line. 04:55:51 Axioplase: it seems inconsistent though. the first (write ...) includes the quotes, the second only the first quote. 04:56:04 "write"s purpose in life is to emit stuff that "read" can read -- it's analogous to python's json.dumps, if that means anything. 04:56:13 "display" on the other hand, emits stuff intended for humans to read. 04:56:31 offby1: this is stuff intended for lilypond to read. 04:56:51 which i guess should be human readable... but how does that fit into your distinction? 04:56:51 not sure what lilypond wants. 04:56:57 rudybot: eval (call-with-output-string (lambda (op) (write "Hey you" op))) 04:56:58 *offby1: ; Value: "\"Hey you\"" 04:57:02 rudybot: eval (call-with-output-string (lambda (op) (display "Hey you" op))) 04:57:02 *offby1: ; Value: "Hey you" 04:57:17 rudybot: eval (call-with-output-string (lambda (op) (write "\nfoobar\n" op))) 04:57:17 *offby1: ; Value: "\"\\nfoobar\\n\"" 04:57:21 rudybot: eval (call-with-output-string (lambda (op) (display "\nfoobar\n" op))) 04:57:22 *offby1: ; Value: "\nfoobar\n" 04:57:31 rudybot: eval (display "\nfoobar\n" op) 04:57:31 *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: op in module: 'program 04:57:35 rudybot: eval (display "\nfoobar\n" ) 04:57:35 *offby1: ; stdout: "\nfoobar\n" 04:57:46 ah, rudybot has no way of displaying stuff without all the quotes. 04:58:33 -!- adadglgmut [~steve@cpe-174-100-207-183.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:59:07 ahh! the second quote *is* there, it just shows up at the beginning of my prompt because it doesn't have a \n following it. 04:59:17 I didn't notice it. 05:00:27 even though (write) adds the quotes, it returns an error, it seems, if I don't use quotes. it looks at that operand as a variable name. 05:00:29 If lilypond just happens to want stuff formatted as Scheme s-expressions, then "write" is the way to go. Otherwise, "display" is what you want. 05:00:36 sure 05:00:43 rudybot: eval (write frotz) 05:00:43 *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: frotz in module: 'program 05:00:44 waltermai: yes, this is normal. 05:00:47 so, display is my answer? 05:00:50 yep 05:00:55 although 05:00:57 rudybot: eval (display frotz) 05:00:57 *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: frotz in module: 'program 05:01:10 that problem has nothing to do with "display" versus "write" 05:01:14 rudybot: eval (display 'frotz) 05:01:14 *offby1: ; stdout: "frotz" 05:01:18 rudybot: eval (write 'frotz) 05:01:18 *offby1: ; stdout: "frotz" 05:01:28 rudybot: who is this "frotz", anyway? 05:01:29 *offby1: t8 de en frotz 05:01:36 rudybot: t8 de en frotz 05:01:37 *offby1: Frotz 05:01:40 aite then, how might I do without the quotes? 05:01:41 *offby1* is enlightened 05:01:56 waltermai: you gotta be more specific. What are you trying to output? 05:02:14 snarkyboojum_ [~snarkyboo@120.156.64.213] has joined #scheme 05:02:19 just foobar, without the quotes. and I don't wanna have to define a variable for every string. 05:02:34 not sure what you mean by "foobar". Seriously. 05:02:41 waltermai: (display "hello foobar") 05:02:44 rudybot: eval (display "foobar") 05:02:44 *offby1: ; stdout: "foobar" 05:03:04 well, in fact there are no quotes around the real output :) 05:03:10 that's what you want, even though here in IRC you -do- see the quotes. Those are an artifact of how rudybot is made. But if you type that into your REPL, you'll see what you want. 05:03:22 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@120.155.237.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:03:23 -!- snarkyboojum_ is now known as snarkyboojum 05:03:24 Try It And See. 05:03:34 rudybot: eval (display "\"") 05:03:40 Axioplase: your sandbox is ready 05:03:40 Axioplase: ; stdout: "\"" 05:04:08 rudybot: what's with these "sandboxes", anyway? 05:04:09 *offby1: All you need is to deal with the different contexts and switching the subprocess into one of a few active sandboxes. 05:04:10 I appreciate you guys bearing with me, I'm trying to be as specific as I can. the quotes turn up in the file when I use (write "foobar" f), but (write foobar f) returns an error. how would I write foobar without the quotes to the file? 05:04:26 (display "foobar" f) 05:04:41 okay, so display is my answer. 05:05:14 *offby1* nods gravely 05:05:34 please please find guile's equivalent of call-with-output-file. 05:05:49 Every time you let the GC collect an open file handle, it makes the baby Jesus cry. 05:06:02 sweet! it works. you guys are awesome. 05:06:31 But of course. 05:06:36 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:06:42 I'm awesome too. 05:07:14 offby1: I'll look into it, but honestly, trying to learn anything from the guile refmanual is like reading plato's manuscripts and not knowing greek. 05:07:28 *waltermai* is not sure if plato's manuscripts exist, but the point remains. 05:12:56 do you mean the form of plato's manuscripts? 05:13:55 would the form not exist in any case? 05:14:13 *waltermai* is a music nerd, not a philosophy or classics nerd. 05:16:48 It's probable Plato would have objected to the notion of manuscript. 05:17:40 SinDoc [~SinDoc@213.49.145.54] has joined #scheme 05:18:04 waltermai: there are lots of good sources to learn Scheme; you just have to be careful about minor differences between implementations. 05:18:35 pjb: it seems that socrates, as plato presents him, was skeptical of the written word (ironic use/misuse of the word 'skeptical'?) 05:19:05 offby1: I've been using racket, which comes with excellent documentation, but I've made the switch recently to guile, and am feeling it, so to speak. 05:19:13 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:19:30 waltermai: Are you masochistic? 05:19:39 now now 05:19:45 pjb: self-knowledge is often difficult. 05:20:01 Such a switch would be a clue... 05:20:50 It is a datapoint, correct. it could by multiply interpretted. it could be a lack of knowledge and foresight, a disregard for personal comfort (though not a desire for it), etc. 05:21:09 or a desire for its opposite, rather. 05:21:28 though your intuition could be the correct one. 05:21:33 I don't know. 05:22:38 -!- SinDoc [~SinDoc@213.49.145.54] has left #scheme 05:23:00 offby1: this whole ports thing seems to be a beast unto itself. but thank you, again, for your help thus far! 05:26:04 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:26:41 -!- Dark-Star|Zzz is now known as Dark-Star 05:26:44 -!- Dark-Star [~michael@HSI-KBW-085-216-084-235.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 05:28:11 offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 05:30:04 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:31:18 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-58-82-251-237-49.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 05:33:23 laurus [~laurus@c-68-40-207-109.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:35:56 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 05:38:18 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:39:02 -!- laurus [~laurus@c-68-40-207-109.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #scheme 05:39:33 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:40:05 offby1: there is indeed such a procedure for guile with the exact name you describe. do you think this is preferrable to simply closing the port manually when all is said and done? 05:41:43 absoeffinglutely 05:41:57 cool. 05:42:00 I cannot think of a single advantage of closing the port manually 05:43:58 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:44:56 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:45:16 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 05:46:18 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:50:28 SICP is nuts. I'm skipping the exercises on my first read through 05:51:16 or when I finish chapter 1, I will go back and do chapter 1's 05:51:33 slowly, I'm sure 05:52:23 Even though I didn't do all the exercises, I suspect you learn _way_ more if you do. 05:52:36 Don't spend hours on one, but do try 'em 05:52:54 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@120.156.64.213] has quit [Quit: snarkyboojum] 05:55:37 -!- rmrfchik [~rmrfchik@linuxhacker.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:55:40 rmrfchik [~rmrfchik@linuxhacker.ru] has joined #scheme 05:56:50 offby1, I will. I'm sure I'll be a better person for it 05:57:01 I'll have to bust out my whiteboard 05:58:18 -!- mister_m [~matthew@OSH-NET-202-225.onshore.net] has left #scheme 05:58:55 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:01:52 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-58-82-251-237-49.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 06:04:41 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 06:11:07 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-124-204.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 06:16:31 -!- mastertogo [~togo@ip70-171-249-111.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: and /part are on an island. /part dies, which is left?] 06:17:27 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:30:16 paperkettles [~chris@ip72-195-132-159.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #scheme 06:32:43 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 06:34:26 I spent a couple of days on the tree recusion how-many-ways-can-you-make-change-out-of-a-dollar problem. 06:35:00 ...not straight, I guess. 06:38:36 But once you understand recursion, it's trivial, and takes only a couple of minutes. 06:38:58 So rather straightforward I'd say. 06:42:06 I agree, it hasn't really helped that much. but I reaaaaaallly understand that problem now. 06:43:13 Oops! 06:43:40 You should really understand this class of problems, and even a whole familly of classes of problems that you may solve with recursion now! 06:43:43 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:43:48 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:44:54 It was fun. 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258 seconds] 14:09:02 Cheery [~cheery@a88-113-49-213.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 14:09:03 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 14:09:18 does anyone know whether there's pre-made garbage collectors that you could just thrust at your lisp implementation? 14:09:42 preferrably non-conservational 14:10:25 it can impose limits, but not request me to use a virtual machine. (I'd be using it in a compiled language) 14:16:17 bokr [~eduska@95-30-105-144.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 14:16:41 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 14:17:42 Cheery: boehm 14:18:01 Cheery, there do exist such beasts, such as Ravenbrook's MPS, but if you are trying to get your system off the ground at all, it would probably be easier to write the couple hundred lines of C to implement Cheney's algorithm. 14:18:25 -!- WLen [~Len@77.127.71.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:18:48 WLen [~Len@77.127.71.10] has joined #scheme 14:19:35 I was about to suggest MPS - it's an interesting system, though the licensing is odd. I'd second Riastradh's suggestion, though: a simple semispace copying collector is not difficult to write, and is probably easier than integrating a separate collector implementation into your system. 14:20:11 Riastradh: halfspace copying GC.. sounds like okay proposal, but what do I replace it with once I'll need a better GC? 14:20:27 well, boehm is pretty easy to integrate (it just replaces MALLOC), but i agree that a custom simple collector is better for most purposes 14:20:36 A generational copying collector is a natural evolution from a simple two-space collector. 14:20:48 and it doesn't bundle with 1 mb+ runtime too 14:20:50 Cheery, figure that out once you need to scale up. 14:21:05 Komi, don't forget that Boehm's software is also a bug, intrinsically. 14:21:17 (This bug is sometimes spelled `C-O-N-S-E-R-V-A-T-I-V-E', but it's a bug nevertheless.) 14:21:24 Riastradh: okay. that's fun approach. :) would fit my stuff anyway. 14:23:00 Riastradh: yes, but it's nice to have until you make a custom gc 14:23:23 copying GCs are all nice, especially for their super-fast allocation speed. 14:24:18 As for scaling, Felix Klock's regional garbage collector looked promising when I read his thesis proposal about a year ago or so, the gist of which is that it is much faster than a real-time garbage collector (no read barrier needed), but provides similar bounds on the ratio of the amount of time spent in the collector to the amount of time spent in the mutator, and on the duration of any single GC pause. 14:24:27 though I've yet had to find out how to turn out a well-written generational copying collector that isn't horror to put into your implementation. 14:24:27 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 14:24:30 Komi: Designing for Boehm will probably make it difficult to move to a relocating collector. 14:25:09 Riastradh: that's all new stuff? 14:25:19 never heard about Felix Klock before. 14:25:21 chandler: good point i didn't thought of that 14:25:22 Cheery, just make sure that you put in hooks for a write barrier (which compile away when not using a generational collector). What else do you need? 14:25:48 Cheery: Why would it be a horror? The allocation algorithm is nearly identical (in fact, completely identical unless you're using separate nurseries for threads or some other purpose). The only difference is in the collector itself. 14:26:15 for an interpreter my choice is usually the fromspace/tospace Cheney thing 14:26:29 chandler: well.. for a generational copying collector you won't need write barriers or read barriers. 14:26:41 äh 14:26:55 meant to say halfspace copying collector 14:26:55 Are you implementing a language without mutation? 14:27:01 Oh, OK. 14:27:09 Use a hardware write barrier. 14:28:26 chandler: sounds neat. does intel hardware provide one for userspace processes? 14:28:41 You probably want to use libsigsegv for that. 14:30:04 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-177-53.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 14:31:41 Memory Pool System... which supports garbage collection. I'm going to look at it just because it looks so interesting. :) 14:32:47 chandler: write-barrier hooks might end up being nasty. though there's not much anything else bothersome. 14:34:59 luz [~davids@201.17.88.176] has joined #scheme 14:37:25 homie [574fa650@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.79.166.80] has joined #scheme 14:40:50 -!- tommylommykins [~tommylomm@5ad471cc.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:41:58 -!- homie [574fa650@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.79.166.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:53:11 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:54:15 SinDoc [~SinDoc@213.49.145.54] has joined #scheme 14:54:47 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:56:05 Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 14:56:12 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Changing host] 14:56:12 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 14:56:14 -!- SinDoc [~SinDoc@213.49.145.54] has left #scheme 14:56:49 sunnyps [~sunny@111.snat-111-91-127.hns.net.in] has joined #scheme 14:58:06 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:13:55 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 15:14:54 -!- mmc [~michal@109.117.161.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:20:23 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:20:52 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:23:02 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:24:33 cor|n [~Anon364@208.83.126.102] has joined #scheme 15:24:44 *cor|n* is gay. 15:25:28 mmc [~michal@109.117.161.30] has joined #scheme 15:25:37 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 15:26:49 tommylommykins [~tommylomm@5ad471cc.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 15:31:39 (define (fact n) (if (zero? n) 1 (* n (fact (- n 1))))) 15:31:54 the real corin can't program in scheme cuz he is brain damaged 15:34:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:39:15 ._. 15:41:06 -!- cor|n [~Anon364@208.83.126.102] has quit [Quit: "corin and iryuu and afkafka get ready to be ddosed by a rough lisper with a ddos tool running on a lispm"] 15:41:11 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:41:59 -!- snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: snarkyboojum] 15:42:20 -!- fowlduck [~fowlduck@204.15.109.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:44 kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:45:14 daedra [~simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has joined #scheme 15:48:40 alvatar_ [~alvatar@248.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 15:48:58 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@249.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:50:41 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:51:26 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:08 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:55:37 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-166-80.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:55:52 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-166-80.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:59:14 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-166-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:59:19 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-166-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:00:35 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-166-80.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:04:11 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-166-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:05:36 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-166-80.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:06:02 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-166-80.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:06:04 -!- mmc [~michal@109.117.161.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:07:50 mmc [~michal@109.117.202.33] has joined #scheme 16:09:03 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 16:10:33 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:11:31 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:27:55 -!- sunnyps [~sunny@111.snat-111-91-127.hns.net.in] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31:33 langmartin [~user@exeuntcha2.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 16:32:18 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:42:18 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-4-84.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:43:08 -!- mmc [~michal@109.117.202.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:43:31 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:55 Riastradh : are you here? 16:44:29 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 16:45:54 -!- tommylommykins [~tommylomm@5ad471cc.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:46:58 -!- alvatar_ [~alvatar@248.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:58:17 corny stuff. :D 17:02:02 ak70 [~ak70@80.77.204.157] has joined #scheme 17:02:14 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 17:13:21 -!- daedra [~simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has left #scheme 17:16:03 curi [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:25:11 alvatar [~alvatar@17.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 17:29:55 Komi, nope! 17:31:14 phao [~phao@189.107.237.120] has joined #scheme 17:31:26 okay! 17:31:58 anyway, just in case you are back... 17:32:23 i have been stupid enough to make an interpreter with Fexprs just to toy around 17:32:32 and found one major but interesting problem 17:33:09 is it possible at all to define control constructs like 'if' with Fexprs and maintain tail recursion? 17:35:38 Komi, probably 17:36:25 i tried defining the procedure: 17:36:33 (define (rec n) (if (< n 1000000) (rec (+ n 1)))) 17:36:35 just to test 17:36:36 -!- aehrisch [~aehrisch@vhost.knauel.org] has left #scheme 17:37:00 if i use normal macros (well, lispish) to define my-if: 17:37:25 (define-macro my-if (test ift iff) (list 'test ift iff))) 17:37:40 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:37:59 it works because anyway at runtime it is the same 17:38:20 but with Fexprs: (if (eval ift) (eval ift) (eval iff) ... 17:38:33 asarch [~asarch@189.188.160.229] has joined #scheme 17:38:35 i get a big and ugly stack overflow 17:42:06 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:43:03 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-58-82-251-237-49.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 17:45:29 I don't understand your definition of MY-IF; what is it supposed to do? 17:45:33 Did you mean to write (list 'if test ift iff)? 17:45:36 *Riastradh* vanishes again. 17:46:02 meder__ [~meder@c-69-143-116-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:47:15 Riastradh: yes 17:47:23 Komi, what Fexpr framework are you using? There's this guy at Brandeis who has a good take on fexprs 17:47:26 sorry, i wrote both definitions wrong 17:47:37 the one for normal macros would be: 17:47:54 (define-macro my-if (test ift iff) (list 'if test ift iff)) 17:48:00 and the one for Fexprs: 17:48:19 (define-fexpr my-if (test ift iff) (if (eval test) (eval ift) (eval iff))) 17:48:44 Fare: i'm using my own toy implementation 17:48:57 it's nothing serious, toying around 17:49:20 then you should know better than anyone the semantics. Anyway, there's plenty of literature on fexprs 17:50:23 well, the specific problem is that they work, but my-if breaks tail recursion 17:50:28 (or any other Fexpr) 17:50:46 i'm reading a bit through the maclisp manual 17:53:29 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-58-82-251-237-49.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:53:37 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-54-82-251-88-28.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 17:53:54 i find a lot of criticism on them, talks by Kent Pitman and manuals 17:54:07 but no mentions on how they interact with tail recursion and continuations 17:54:33 maybe i did something really wrong in the interpreter itself 17:54:53 tail recursion only works if your evaluator supports it 17:56:15 it does (when using normal macros or usual code without macros) 17:56:31 i suspect all that calls to (eval ...) are breaking it 17:57:03 but i don't know if it's supossed to work or it's just like that and because of the Fexpr the procedure is no longer tail recursive 17:58:52 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.237.120] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:00:04 paperkettles [~chris@2001:5c0:1104:f400:226:bbff:fe0c:b57f] has joined #scheme 18:01:25 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.160.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:01:38 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 18:05:07 Komi, from the information you have given us, there is no reason why proper tail recursion might be broken. 18:05:16 tommylommykins [~tommylomm@5ad471cc.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 18:07:15 I'm sorry the information might be vague and inconsistent 18:07:44 i think i'll try to get some old lisp interpreter 18:08:08 that supported fexpr and test there if that kind of constructs are tail-recursive 18:09:31 i have to be away a bit, thanks for the pointers Riastradh and Fare 18:09:51 -!- Komi is now known as Komi|off 18:14:06 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:16:04 mmc [~michal@109.117.170.78] has joined #scheme 18:17:57 Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 18:18:52 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Changing host] 18:18:53 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 18:20:20 -!- mmc [~michal@109.117.170.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:20:38 mmc [~michal@109.112.56.112] has joined #scheme 18:31:55 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 18:36:21 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 18:37:47 -!- ak70 [~ak70@80.77.204.157] has left #scheme 18:43:54 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:20 amoe [~amoe@cpc1-brig13-0-0-cust658.brig.cable.ntl.com] has joined #scheme 18:59:42 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 19:06:28 Riastradh: was there ever an implementation of your proposed filesystem SRFI? 19:10:51 Most Scheme systems support something like it. 19:27:53 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has left #scheme 19:33:12 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 19:38:37 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:46 -!- Komi|off is now known as Komi 19:49:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-56.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:53:47 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-54-82-251-88-28.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 19:53:54 fowlduck [~fowlduck@2002:cc0f:6d26:0:fa1e:dfff:fed7:9dc1] has joined #scheme 19:55:42 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-54-82-251-88-28.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 19:59:53 asarch [~asarch@189.188.160.229] has joined #scheme 20:02:12 hotblack23 [~jh@p57B5B1FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:12:32 choas [~lars@p5B0DC93E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:23:34 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@17.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:31:02 -!- amoe [~amoe@cpc1-brig13-0-0-cust658.brig.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:29 jao [~user@14.Red-88-6-167.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:37:22 nice, i found a maclisp implementation and it causes stack overflow as well 20:37:48 Maclisp is not properly tail recursive. 20:38:31 that's bad, i don't know of other dialects of lisp with fexprs 20:39:01 Forget fexprs for a moment. If you write (define (*if t c a) (if t (c) (a))), and then try to write a loop using (*if foo (lambda () ...) (lambda () ...)), does your system explode? 20:39:59 good question 20:40:24 *Komi* tries 20:43:44 nope 20:43:44 it works 20:43:57 although slower than a normal if 20:44:37 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:45:04 but that's an interesting way to write it wrapping the arguments in procedures 20:45:47 -!- saccade [~saccade@209-6-39-179.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:45:53 And then (defmacro if (test then else) `(*if ,test (lambda () ,then) (lambda () ,else))) 20:47:11 i still don't have quasiquote/unquote and such, and no normal macros (except the fexprs) 20:54:21 anyway i think i'll put the usual compile-time macro-expansion in it 20:54:40 but fexprs have been an interesting thing to play with 20:55:47 maybe i should investigate other macro systems just for fun 20:57:22 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:01:12 Fun: gdb interferes with the siginfo.si_code value passed to SIGFPE handlers on NetBSD. 21:01:23 so far i took a look at syntactic closures, lisp defmacro, scheme hygienic macros and fexprs 21:01:57 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 21:02:08 -!- meder__ [~meder@c-69-143-116-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:02:15 Riastradh: do you use NetBSD? 21:02:17 Recur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 21:02:27 Yes. 21:02:57 i always wanted to try some *BSD system, i can't run linux 21:03:17 Sigh. 21:03:18 (the driver for my wireless card triggers a kernel bug) 21:03:32 hi chandler 21:03:50 I doubt your wireless card will work better under any BSD. 21:04:01 -!- Recur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:09 Have you tried fixing the bug? 21:04:37 i lack the skill needed to fix it, i never coded drivers 21:04:58 and my C-fu is weak at best 21:05:11 I never coded drivers before I fixed the bug in NetBSD whereby it failed to support my PowerBook's AirPort Extreme wifi card. 21:05:24 Drivers really aren't anything special. 21:06:37 to be frank, i looked a bit at the code for the driver 21:06:46 it's a rt2500 (realtek chipset) 21:06:54 Komi: Have you considered that if Riastradh's *IF example was interesting or novel to you, you might want to spend some more time getting some experience with Scheme as it is before attempting to define your own dialect? 21:07:02 the code was scary 21:07:24 a lot of undocumented hexadecimal constants on different features of the chipset and such 21:07:41 Well, writing an interpreter is always a good way to get some experience with Scheme. 21:07:48 I think that driver went through a rewrite in the not-too-distant past. 21:07:56 chandler: i'm not really interested in building anything useful, just learning by implementing different features 21:08:24 the *if definition was surprising, i would have never thought of it 21:08:30 Riastradh: Indeed, but diving headlong into fexprs is likely to result in a very confused process of learning. 21:09:06 oh, i already coded a lot in scheme and cl 21:09:24 Komi: If you enjoy this style of learning, you might want to consider finding a (paper) copy of EOPL, either from a bookstore or a local library. 21:09:34 although the more i try to implement things the more i see the lack of knowledge i have in the field 21:10:11 i have eopl (2nd edition) and paip 21:11:03 but (not to be arrogant or something) i find them a bit uninteresting in the sense that they use scheme or lisp itself to define the new interpreter 21:11:25 What's uninteresting about that? 21:11:29 so no talking about gc for example 21:11:59 but i like when they talk about different concepts and features 21:12:05 Komi: you could still implement the GC in lisp. 21:12:09 so say for example i take eopl and read on the OO system 21:12:17 They also didn't talk about how to implement an operating system, but you'll probably want to have one of those too. 21:12:19 Komi: see for example: http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/lisp&h=9867eb155106ad99c728c73c3ab819d8db5aed2d&hb=f4c7f174cc1a54bb6f59193e555a2919dfe8f08b&f=common-lisp/heap.lisp 21:12:19 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/3723yp9 21:12:21 then i try to implement something similar in my interpreter 21:12:31 and i make modifications and play with it 21:12:39 Komi: that is, you can write in lisp, at any level of abstraction you want. Even low-level. 21:12:41 You can always write that in Scheme if you want. (define memory (make-vector #x1000...)) (define (gc) (let loop ((start (trace-roots))) (let ((end (trace start))) (if (< start end) (loop end] 21:12:43 sometimes everything goes wrong, sometimes it works 21:12:52 but anyway it's lots of fun 21:13:04 (The `that' of my previous message referred to `garbage collector'.) 21:14:36 chandler: i'm not trying to implement anything serious 21:14:52 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:15:16 yet i like to toy around and try to boot the computer just to print "hello world" by writing a loader 21:15:46 i just tinker with things, but nothing special 21:16:28 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:18:02 pjb: very nice 21:18:24 (about the garbage collector) 21:18:50 Komi: Didn't say you were. I'm merely suggesting that there might be some gaps in your self-directed learning, and that as a result of those gaps you might not have really appreciated the macro systems you said you looked at, nor understood why the world moved on from fexprs a long, long time ago. 21:20:11 chandler: yes, i'm sure there are a lot of gaps 21:20:25 (i understand on the fexprs thanks to Riastradh) 21:20:58 for example i have a big wrap when i try to understand call/cc 21:21:01 gap 21:21:06 and a lot of other features 21:21:22 but this way of learning by implementing them 21:21:28 although maybe not adequate 21:21:35 it's fun 21:21:54 it's probably stupid, i'll never use this toy interpreter i'm writting 21:22:05 but even with all the errors i make, i enjoy the proccess 21:22:37 sometimes i just understand the high level of something for example 21:22:49 like "so that's what pattern matching is useful for" 21:22:50 Well, that's where something like EOPL might help... 21:22:58 then i try to implement it 21:23:11 then i look at other lisps and how they do it 21:23:27 eventually i fail because i lack the knowledge 21:23:27 For instance, it will teach you about CPS, which will help you understand call/cc. 21:23:45 and then i fix it slowly 21:24:00 after a lot of tries and reading 21:24:18 i finally understand why they chose to do it "this" or "that" way 21:25:21 on cps 21:25:36 i remember i wrote a cps conversion tool for my interpreter 21:25:49 but at the time it lacked tail recursion 21:26:21 sometimes... for example when reading about call/cc 21:26:41 i understand what it means or how i am supossed to use it 21:26:46 but then when writing programs 21:26:54 it seems like it's never the time to use that feature 21:27:07 like say: "oh i know, this should be done using call/cc" 21:27:39 the one thing i came to like about call/cc 21:27:56 it's how conceptually elegant it is 21:28:11 in the sense of encapsulating all flow control in one only operator 21:28:27 -!- choas [~lars@p5B0DC93E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:28:36 i'm talking a lot, sorry 21:28:37 :) 21:29:28 There are plenty of opportunities to use call/cc when writing interpreters. Suppose you want to add multiple threads or coroutines to your interpreter, for instance. 21:29:42 yes 21:29:50 so far i used it for exceptions 21:30:07 i suposse i never had the chance to need coroutines/threads 21:30:57 about eopl, sicp, etc... 21:31:14 i think (at least on what i read) 21:31:27 today earlier we talked about generational GC and such. 21:31:32 the books are great but they don't teach the "why" of some things 21:31:48 i mean "why this way and why not this one" 21:32:25 so far the best book i found on that was lisp in small pieces 21:32:32 Komi: :) yep. you unfortunately most often need to understand yourself the concept of things having function. 21:32:52 the author says: this is the scheme choice of doing this 21:32:56 that's hard to learn considering there's so much stuff that just loses its function during time. 21:33:03 then it experiments on doing things other ways 21:33:09 eventually it says: see? it fails 21:33:12 That's a fair point, and an understanding of blind alleys and poor design decisions is necessary to be a good programmer. University curriculums don't really teach that. 21:33:18 or: it's not consistent 21:33:46 i think only when i hit my head to a wall i learn that 21:34:02 so that's what i mostly do, fail and try understand why 21:34:03 And not just blind alleys, but naieve technologies and methods and when they shouldn't be used. 21:34:46 anyway. If you use a generational GC and then have to do full collect, you have to completely stop the garbage collector? 21:34:53 Without that education, we wind up with things like Python (which uses a reference counter and had to have a "cycle detector" bolted on to it), and Ruby (a naive tree interpreter that turned into a huge bottleneck when it became popular). 21:34:54 *stop the program 21:36:04 chandler: I feel I'm finally getting something useful out of my compilers & programming language -stuff. 21:36:14 Cheery: I don't know about that. The implementations I've worked with have used a stop-the-world strategy, but it doesn't seem impossible to me to make it concurrent. 21:36:34 chandler: i agree, although besides the bottleneck problem it's interesting to look at the design 21:36:49 chandler: is it so necessary to do the full stop-the-world -collect ever? 21:37:01 ruby 1.9 has gone long ways for a better implementation with YARV though 21:37:27 of course, stuff going into the oldest generation would then immediately become memory leaks. 21:37:39 chandler: maybe it's the point where to switch your strategy. 21:37:56 tri-color after youre away from nursery, maybe? 21:38:31 well, I consider this later once I will have something more on it. :) 21:38:33 Komi: It has, and that wasn't a critical problem to be sure - but why not use a bytecode interpreter out of the gate? There were more egregious problems too, like the way that closures retained the entire lexical environment, not just closed-over variables. I *think* that got fixed in 1.9. 21:39:13 Cheery: This sounds like fertile ground for experimentation! 21:39:24 chandler: probably matz just thought: i want this small little experiment mixing smalltalk/lisp and such, and it all snowballed 21:40:00 so he was lazy and did a implementation that worked and he could play with 21:40:52 Well, the easiest way to do that would have been to just implement it on a Lisp in order to experiment with semantics, and once he was happy with the semantics work on a good implementation. :-) 21:41:26 during the last few days I've written pleasantly short programs that tackle with parsing&compiling&emitting native machine code 21:41:28 I'm not convinced he actually understood Lisp, though. 21:42:18 it's pleasant because I've got lot less burden on this stuff than ever before. 21:43:30 you know, that "optimization is the root of all evil" thing 21:43:34 Hrmph. NetBSD/i386 delivers SIGFPE with a siginfo code of FPE_FLTDIV rather than FPE_INTDIV. 21:43:40 eventually it can hurt too 21:44:30 Most likely there's someone out there today saying "I'd just like to do an experiment with X", and rather than actually be lazy about it and doing the experiment with a robust set of tools for implementing new languages (Racket, f'rinstance) is actually writing an interpreter in C and having to deal with many details irrelevant to the problem at hand. 21:45:04 Komi: I've been learning it all along. :) 21:45:09 Komi: That's my point, though. The way to be lazy is to not write an interpreter at all. Doing that is a premature optimization in a sense, too. 21:45:12 the hard part is to recognize when I were optimizing 21:45:25 Er, writing an intepreter for your language is a premature optimization. 21:45:39 It's extra effort and makes it harder to experiment with new language semantics. 21:45:55 chandler: also, writing a complete design for your language is premature optimization 21:46:08 from same reason. ^^ 21:47:12 chandler: yes i agree with that 21:47:28 Any design I came up with during the last three years for a language have sucked. 21:47:52 best approach seems to be just throw the design out of window. do it like it becomes out easiest 21:48:21 find the design points that are absolute must to implement instead of copying design points from python or lua. 21:48:28 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:49:43 (gee.. I'm realising I've actually spent much of that time on programming language stuff) 21:50:10 (maybe even longer, I remember I had the obsession on programming languages far longer) 21:51:31 I'm happy you don't know where I live so you can't send a psychiatrist for me. 21:51:54 Why would I do that? 21:51:54 it's already weird to have interest on tools rather than stuff done with them. 21:52:32 hm.. or then.. not 21:52:52 *Cheery* just forgot there's 4chan and crap.fi 21:53:30 nvm 21:53:50 It's not weird at all. In fact it's the smart thing to be interested in. There's only so much you can do better in doing a thing itself. Make a better tool, and you can improve what many people do by an order of magnitude or more all at once. 21:54:47 Build tools for building tools, and you see an even greater multiplier effect. 21:55:54 Scheme is a tool for building tools, which is why all the smart people are here. :-) 21:56:17 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-135-66.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 21:56:38 yes. unfortunately the trouble is it's easy to end up just writing a tool that has no function. 21:56:50 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:01 good thing I finally realized that I can make a tiny compiler. :) 21:57:25 it's going to be lot easier to throw away or modify until it pleases many. 21:58:11 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p57B5B1FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:58:20 chandler: there's also few annoying, but perhaps useful things. 21:58:33 once I had obsession for lots of fancy syntax 21:59:07 well, I were writing parsers and got some really good ones. 21:59:30 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:59:49 but they were complex and large. 22:00:06 you couldn't have built a simple compiler that uses them. 22:00:52 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:01:29 also, if you really select some specific thing you want to represent with such syntax, you'll eventually find one that is plainly annoying to write in your syntax. 22:02:06 more smooth you'll make it, more it costs and more use-specific the language is. 22:02:47 I even hate wiki markups a bit because they clutter your text with symbols and.. well.. text. 22:03:28 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 22:03:38 it's not nice to get fancier and neater-to-write syntax just by typing character behind a character. 22:04:38 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:04:44 that all is enough for me to carefully study stuff like contenteditable fields and sanitizing their output. 22:05:26 hm. that's all I had to rant for now. 22:05:41 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #scheme 22:06:13 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-36.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 22:09:18 -!- stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:10:28 meder [~meder@c-69-143-116-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:14:28 mmc1 [~michal@109.112.37.42] has joined #scheme 22:15:13 -!- mmc [~michal@109.112.56.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:16:08 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 22:23:36 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-89-111.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 22:23:40 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-89-111.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:25:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-56.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:38:20 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.161.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:38:54 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-54-82-251-88-28.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 22:40:02 Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-120-72.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:40:08 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:41:04 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:41:11 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 22:45:38 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:39 -!- meder [~meder@c-69-143-116-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:50:39 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-36.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:54:13 SinDoc [~SinDoc@213.49.145.54] has joined #scheme 22:55:28 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-166-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:55:44 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-166-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:56:07 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 22:58:54 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 23:05:39 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5adafe9d.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 23:05:58 incubot: Moriturus te saluto 23:08:21 Riastradh: Yow! 23:10:34 Oops... I swiched IRC clients; I don't have a chefyow command handy any longer. 23:10:44 Switched, even. 23:10:48 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 23:11:58 chefyow? 23:14:00 yow | chef 23:14:40 So which is more exciting -- the new exit message, or that hardware trap handling works better now (and is about to get still better)? 23:15:01 (Well, the old exit message, I should say!) 23:15:04 I'm not a NetBSD user... 23:15:37 It works better now on Linux too. 23:16:11 mister_m [~matthew@OSH-NET-202-225.onshore.net] has joined #scheme 23:16:20 does scheme have anything like CPAN? 23:17:21 We have SPAN 23:19:45 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:23:02 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:25:38 -!- SinDoc [~SinDoc@213.49.145.54] has left #scheme 23:35:36 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 23:37:50 SinDoc [~SinDoc@213.49.145.54] has joined #scheme 23:39:07 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 23:40:14 -!- SinDoc [~SinDoc@213.49.145.54] has left #scheme 23:40:24 -!- bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:42:34 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 23:47:04 -!- fowlduck [~fowlduck@2002:cc0f:6d26:0:fa1e:dfff:fed7:9dc1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:54:29 -!- Cheery [~cheery@a88-113-49-213.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:59:05 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme