00:00:10 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #scheme 00:03:20 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 00:04:52 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:15:08 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-52-82-65-125-6.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 00:16:57 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-52-82-65-125-6.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 00:24:52 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 00:25:05 *offby1* offers incubot some pound cake 00:25:28 mvsaad [mvsaad@c9533d1d.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 00:27:37 nicktick [~na@unaffiliated/nicktick] has joined #scheme 00:29:08 -!- mvsaad [mvsaad@c9533d1d.virtua.com.br] has quit [] 00:37:31 -!- cpr420 [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 00:42:41 Michael_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 00:42:49 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:45:39 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:47:23 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-71-106-7-247.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:57:28 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:05:38 samth: the adverb is in the eye of the beholder - I've seen plenty of benchmarks, and those links confirm my prior knowledge, and I feel the "much" is deserved in those cases 01:06:30 particularly because I prefer to distinguish that while bigloo and gambit are (in general) faster than PLT, ikarus is in turn faster than bigloo and gambit 01:06:53 (and larceny and mit are not very consistent) 01:09:16 despite the fact that these are all still in a fairly narrow range that is "much" faster than the typical interpreter, and somewhat slower than C 01:12:30 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 01:15:38 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-164-157.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:18:43 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 01:20:36 drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-164-157.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:28:18 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:29:19 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:49 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:32:54 phao [~phao@189.107.156.42] has joined #scheme 01:44:10 OT: Is it possible to estimate in rought numbers the size of the scientific and technological elite that basically puts the world running ? 5 million people ? 01:44:16 rough* 01:45:30 FunkyDrummer [~RageOfTho@users-55-98.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 01:47:14 I'm not sure they put the world running. Perhaps, they rather *keep* the world running. 01:47:34 Though they seem to have been on vacation for a couple of years now 01:48:17 :) 01:49:39 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-33-176.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:49:42 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:54:09 ne [~na@unaffiliated/nicktick] has joined #scheme 01:55:39 -!- nicktick [~na@unaffiliated/nicktick] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:55:47 if you're thinking of the most basic segment of the population that keeps the human race running, that would be the farmers 01:56:01 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 01:56:12 but without just about any profession society would collapse 01:56:20 except lawyers - we could do without them 01:56:43 Agreed :-) 01:57:12 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.156.42] has left #scheme 01:57:25 cpr420 [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 02:02:41 -!- ne is now known as nicktick 02:03:04 -!- winxordie [~winxordie@199-49.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:27:46 Without morticians, the society wouldn't collapse. On the countrary, it would stack up :) 02:28:56 perhaps call-with-current-life-after-death runs with constant stack space. 02:30:42 so people with memories of their former lives have a space leak? 02:33:24 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 02:33:52 Yes. It's a result of using call/cc instead of partial continuations. 02:34:14 Those who hope to be reincarnated are presumably placing their faith in multi-shot continuations. :-) 02:35:15 -!- Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:36:29 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:40:52 adu [~ajr@pool-96-255-9-193.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:44:13 -!- vishsingh [~vsingh@bas2-toronto10-2925113713.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 02:44:43 -!- luz [~davids@189.60.69.82] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 02:45:18 multi-shot continuations should allow for multiple simultaneous incarnations! 02:46:56 -!- FunkyDrummer [~RageOfTho@users-55-98.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:52:45 timj_ [~timj@e176194216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:56:07 -!- timj__ [~timj@e176193059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:00:02 asarch [~asarch@187.132.140.189] has joined #scheme 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-!- nicktick [~na@unaffiliated/nicktick] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:02:48 neilv [~user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 06:13:49 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 06:17:03 Sysop_fb [~bleh@213.185.111.64] has joined #scheme 06:20:33 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:20:54 -!- hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-66-95.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:21:19 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 06:23:45 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:38:13 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 06:46:24 ASau` [~user@77.246.230.205] has joined #scheme 06:49:41 hhomar [~hhomar@92.27.36.140] has joined #scheme 06:59:06 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-112-25.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 06:59:50 hm. given how big this sytem is, and how it evals code stored in database, and some of that code evals code... 07:00:22 what system? 07:00:25 ...i think i want to make my eval procedure dump a log of who is calling it 07:00:37 adu: just a proprietary system i'm consulting on 07:00:59 oh, sounds like something you might get in trouble for discussing on irc 07:01:45 i thought i was being vague enough that i could talk about a low-level scheme technical question 07:02:05 but good point 07:02:22 but that was pretty vauge 07:03:07 "i'm doing some stuff for some people" would be the only thing i could think of thats slightly more vauge 07:04:23 i was thinking aloud. i guess that the context is not relevant in this case 07:04:33 lots of times, people will ask "why do you want to do that? that's dumb" 07:05:30 well, out-of-context things usually sound dump at first 07:06:00 but then, conversely, "context" is usually people trying to justify dumb things 07:06:56 anyway, normally this would not be a worthwhile way to debug 07:07:18 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.30.106] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 07:07:29 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.30.106] has joined #scheme 07:07:41 i can see why, especially if eval is called a lot, but then there's always grep 07:08:17 it would be akin to dumping every JVM instruction executed... yuk 07:08:40 this is not greppable info 07:08:58 it is if you do what you're doing 07:09:06 like | grep 'called by foo' 07:09:20 see, this is what i mean 07:09:34 lots of times, people will ask "why do you want to do that? that's dumb" 07:10:10 "if you're not doing it this other way, it must just be that you don't know how" :) 07:10:29 have you asked your question yet? 07:10:56 btw, i try to be nice, and not a jerk 07:11:32 i was parallelizing. if eli were around, he might pop up with helpful pointers while i'm slogging through the manuals on continuation marks and such 07:13:16 that doesn't sound like a question 07:13:29 If riadstradh were around, he'd tell you to post some real source code 07:13:44 no one expects the spanish inquisition! 07:13:48 if i were around, i'd probably be more help 07:14:37 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:14:52 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 07:14:54 neilv: i only have one tip for you: gdb 07:18:15 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:26:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 07:28:56 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.30.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:39:20 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 07:40:00 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-68.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 07:59:42 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:19:36 Blkt [~user@93-33-137-56.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 08:20:03 good day everyone 08:24:34 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 08:33:43 -!- sladegen 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14:11:02 -!- xwl [~user@123.115.118.91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:23 xwl [~user@123.115.118.91] has joined #scheme 14:16:23 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@224.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:17:14 alvatar [~alvatar@224.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 14:18:48 -!- winxordie [~winxordie@199-49.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:24:02 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@224.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:24:44 alvatar [~alvatar@224.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 14:29:54 winxordie [~winxordie@199-49.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:34:02 foof, in that benchmark suite, among plt, bigloo, gambit and ikarus, of the 27 benchmarks that run on all systems, ikarus is the fastest on less than half 14:39:08 samth, that's interesting. For some reason I got the impression that Ikarus would do very well on micro-benchmarks, though less well on production code. 14:39:38 ikarus does do well on microbenchmarks - it's clearly the fastest system in that comparison 14:39:44 but it's not lots faster 14:44:18 samth, what's the status of ikarus now? anyone forking the project? 14:44:30 sunnyps, i have no idea 14:45:19 Maybe Abdulaziz needs fan mail? 14:47:35 don't we all? 14:47:52 rudybot: you rock. 14:47:54 bremner: i wonder how much the channel can deteriorate... we are at a good speed for hitting rock bottom ;-) 14:48:27 Looks like it was high time, rudybot's getting all depressed! 14:48:48 *offby1* readies an injection 14:48:59 he's upset because he's had to move twice in the last couple of days. 14:49:04 -!- winxordie [~winxordie@199-49.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:49:15 plus his old home was demolished, and now he's in a new one. 14:49:24 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.150.168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:36 Has incubot ever been taken to the good doctor? 14:49:57 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-96-255-9-193.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 14:51:37 sunnyps: Theres a fork on github called Vicare Scheme 14:52:45 offby1, oh? Data center migration? 14:55:07 IJP, thanks 14:56:14 gnomon: that's a grand way to put it. It runs on a Super El Cheapo Xen setup in someone's basement (prgmr.com). I tried doing a 'dist-upgrade', which I botched, so I moved the bot to my home machine for a few hours while I repaved the xen box 14:56:17 then moved it back 14:56:22 .oO("it"? "him"?) 14:56:38 *gnomon* chuckles 14:56:52 Understood, sir! I hope rudybot is happy in vis new home. 14:57:00 that bot has turned out to be a miniature replica of the sorts of stuff I deal with every day at work 14:59:41 What's that crack about software projects coming to resemble the organizational structure which produced them? 14:59:59 offby1, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but I'm hoping for the former. 15:00:10 oddly, I have been poking at that bot for longer than I've had my current job 15:02:58 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.230.205] has quit [Quit: off] 15:04:04 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 15:05:42 winxordie [~winxordie@199-49.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:08:07 Michael_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 15:09:32 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 15:11:15 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:11:44 mmc1 [~michal@cs27122086.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 15:14:19 -!- neilv [~user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:17:44 incubot: (list->string (list-tabulate 32 (lambda (i) (integer->char (+ 32 (random 95)))))) 15:17:44 JesYyt0*&B|fef>zt6` 0%*X50_4W0]p 15:17:58 is that a sufficient salt-generating mechanism? 15:20:03 *offby1* checks his blood pressure 15:20:29 *gnomon* quails at the thought of doing the same 15:20:35 All that brine, don'cha know. 15:20:46 pickled tentacles? 15:21:38 I haven't been called that since grade school. 15:21:58 -!- xwl [~user@123.115.118.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:24:22 gnomon: hey, thanks; that's the first time i've met "quail", the verb. 15:25:44 thought it might derive from the eponymous bird; but apparently it's related to "quele": to sting. 15:26:23 Either that, or Anthony Quayle, the actor 15:27:35 klutometis, yay! 15:27:54 klutometis, at a previous position I was scolded once or twice because our offshore resources couldn't read my emails. 15:28:09 I was actually assigned to read a bunch of Simple English Wikipedia articles. 15:28:11 *gnomon* sighs 15:28:16 heh 15:28:27 offby1: the war hero and beknighted actor? maybe; if it refers to his tragic succumbing to liver cancer. 15:28:29 now, if your "offshore resources" weren't native English speakers, that's a perfectly reasonable request 15:28:47 I only can think of one movie he was in. 15:28:49 *offby1* imdbs 15:28:55 offby1, I agree, but their company was specifically selected for their "excellent" communications abilities. 15:29:25 ah. two 15:29:29 However, it appears that the communications abilities actually belonged to the sales reps, not the people with whom we were actually working. 15:29:36 gnomon: heh; question is: were the off-shores pointed to real wikipedia to improve theirs? seems only fair to meet you half way. 15:29:46 well ... I am always willing to cut non-native speakers some slack. 15:29:57 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:30:01 -!- filologen [~user@030205.dhcp.hum.ku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:30:02 given as how I cannot speak any other language at all. 15:32:01 offby1: you guys do everything in house at cozi, though, don't you? 15:33:58 er? 15:34:02 as opposed to ... ? 15:34:10 doing it off-shore, of course 15:34:24 development? Actually we've had one or two relatively small things done offshore 15:34:28 oh, interesting 15:34:46 obscure stuff we didn't know how, or want, to do ourselves (C# something) 15:34:55 I seem to recall it turned out badly; nobody can maintain the stuff. 15:35:22 not because the offshore guys did a poor job, but just because ... nobody knows how, or wants to, maintain it :) 15:35:43 heh 15:36:02 but mostly, yes, in-house 15:36:22 our code base isn't that big 15:37:04 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:38:27 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 15:39:00 interesting how code bases in scheme tend to be relatively off-shore-proof; although i did send the off-shore guys a copy of "the little schemer" once, which they devoured with great enthusiasm. 15:40:28 the scheme that resulted was interesting; it might have even been worthy of a few dailywtfs, if the audience had been sufficient. 15:42:09 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:43:12 -!- nicktick [~na@unaffiliated/nicktick] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:43:41 but, alas, most dailywtfs nowadays seem to be along the lines of "guffaw: look how that cat manually expanded this loop into a thousand-case switch statement." 15:44:38 which are always worth a cheap laugh, of course. 15:45:04 you're joking, or at least exaggerating. 15:45:06 I hope. 15:45:22 about what? dailywtf? 15:45:43 "manually exaggerating this loop" 15:45:47 *ahem* 15:45:48 expanding 15:45:58 the perils of M-/ 15:47:04 offby1: http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Maximum-Pad.aspx 15:47:31 notice the subtle lisp-hostility, though: "And, of course, a LISP fan would simply torture future coders with recursion and parentheses." 15:47:43 That doesn't seem subtle. 15:47:53 heh 15:49:14 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 15:49:23 man, I do not read carefully; I thought that manually-expanding-the-loop was an example of something your offshore people gave you; I didn't realize you cited it merely as a typical "dailywtf" entry. 15:49:24 offby1: do you irc in emacs? 15:49:35 THAT'S AN AWFULLY PERSONAL QUESTION, BUSTER 15:49:49 I'm using ERC Version 5.3 with GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.12.12, multi-tty) of 2010-06-27. 15:49:55 klutometis: of course :) 15:50:19 hey, cool; that never occurred to me. what about email, though; same thing? 15:50:26 used to, but gave it up. 15:50:35 the email client is ... hideously complex 15:50:35 neilv [~user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 15:50:38 now I'm just a gmail whore 15:50:42 haven't looked back 15:51:01 do you do erc-speak? 15:51:09 a full-featured email client just pushes emacs a little too far. 15:51:14 that would be a little creepy, i think. 15:51:23 No, I don't do erc-speak; I can read just fine (modulo not paying attention) 15:51:29 offby1, hmm. I've been considering switching from mutt to emacs for email. 15:51:43 gnomon: I suspect you'll be disappointed, but what the heck 15:51:53 from what I hear, mutt is the bee's knees. 15:51:54 offby1, ah, that's what I was curious about. 15:52:03 emacs "vm" is nice for email 15:52:08 It's pretty awesome. Specifically, its query language is magnificent. 15:52:14 gnomon: really? yeah, i've been using mutt for almost 10 years now. i'm not sure what feature would entice me away. 15:52:17 gnomon: what -- "vm", or "mutt"? 15:52:19 i think i used emacs gnus for email for a while too. but mostly just usenet 15:52:35 offby1, sorry, mutt's query language is magnificent, though of course completely opaque. 15:52:36 this is hilarious: http://delysid.org/emacs/erc-speak.mp3 15:53:08 eventually i switched to thunderbird, though. mainly because i wanted better html mail 15:53:13 if the joke is that that's a two-minute silent MP3 ... 15:53:56 is there any cli mua? :) 15:54:03 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:14 silent? i'm getting a lot of narrated irc-cruft; the irc server is narrated in the same voice as the Master Control Program in tron 15:54:47 and the users all sound like Flynn 15:55:01 Riviera, there is always mh! 15:55:04 Or nmh. 15:55:26 gnomon: i always suspected that mh is something like that, but for over 10 years i have avoided to look at it. 15:55:37 gnomon: i guess it's time now :) 15:55:39 Riviera, well played. I think you won that particular encounter. 15:55:44 No no! 15:55:46 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 15:55:51 8) 15:55:58 Please, don't let me be the person to convince you to look at nmh. I don't think my conscience could stand the pain. 15:57:01 gnomon: well, you'd not be responsible. I'm thinking about something like that for a few weeks now, something that I could trigger with shell commands, something "asynchronous" 15:57:14 I wrote a Twitter-to-maildir pipeline a little while ago and went looking around for tools which met me precise encoding requirements, and while searching for them (unsuccessfully, I might add; I ended up having to write them) I read up on mh. I'm still recovering from that trauma. 15:57:43 You're good in scaring people off :-) 15:57:54 (but not good enough on that one .. ;P) 15:58:57 -!- sunnyps [~sunny@120.snat-111-91-110.hns.net.in] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:59:23 gnomon: actually, i'm quite curious about your experience, what is so bad about mh? 15:59:36 meh 15:59:40 someone had to say it 16:01:35 Riviera, the tools that I was able to find handle edge cases poorly. Specifically, they offered insufficient control over the MIME encoding of headers, which was critical to my particular use case; and the error reporting that I encountered was insufficient to build atop. 16:01:48 I've been spoiled by curl's comprehensive return code catalog. 16:05:30 gnomon: okay, so it's not the general cli-/shell-integration design that's bad, but the poor implementation :) 16:06:20 Riviera, granted, but I can't build anything useful with a nice design that remains unimplemented! 16:07:00 gnomon: yes, of course. I believe you that mh is disappointing, but i'd still like to have "something like that" :) 16:07:09 gnomon: thanks for sharing ;) 16:08:00 De nada, seņor! 16:08:12 gnomon: I hear y'all have your own Mississippi river 16:12:46 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5adb10a1.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 16:17:20 offby1, I beg your pardon? I don't quite get your meaning. 16:26:42 Matrox [~Matrox@unaffiliated/matrox] has joined #scheme 16:26:53 I'm idly browsing Wikipedia, and it said there's a Mississippi in Ontario 16:27:13 http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_River_(Ontario) e.g. 16:28:55 Huh, so we do! 16:29:28 Sorry about the namespace clash, there. 16:30:10 the national border serves to delimit the scope 16:37:21 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@95-26-229-123.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:08 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:53:02 -!- neilv [~user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:53:59 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:58:41 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:00:40 Blkt` [~user@93-33-137-56.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 17:02:48 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-137-56.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:16:54 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:18:06 at least since 1815 17:18:22 err, whenever the war of 1812 ended. 17:18:40 kar8nga [~kar8nga@78.104.80.154] has joined #scheme 17:25:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.229.50] has joined #scheme 17:26:44 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 17:26:45 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@224.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:30:44 broquaint [81911bca88@spc2-brig11-0-0-cust40.asfd.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 17:32:07 alvatar [~alvatar@224.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 17:32:33 Baughn [~svein@40.39.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #scheme 17:32:58 Okay. Last time I asked this I got a perfectly good answer (chibi-scheme), but it's been a year, and I /would/ have to port it to windows, so - 17:33:24 Anyone know a nice, embeddable Scheme that works on windows, linux and os x? 17:33:47 I don't need any I/O. At all. Just a two-way C FFI. 17:35:54 (Oh, and it needs to be relatively small, but anything under a megabyte will do) 17:36:23 Eh, tinyscheme? 17:37:47 Hmm 17:38:26 There's no online documentation - bad site design, there. Well, let's see. 17:39:30 -!- davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:41:44 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 17:44:13 ..that might be a bit /too/ small. I'll keep trying with chibi. 17:50:26 sepult` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-161-17.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:53:25 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-34-202-181.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:56:22 The source code is documentation enough, if you speak C. 17:57:53 "The problem isn't that I don't speak C, it's that nobody else does." 18:00:37 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:03:41 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:19:47 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 18:20:15 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:23:43 -!- mathk [~mathk@83.158.153.167] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:52 mathk [~mathk@dispo-82-65-236-245.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:25:21 -!- jao [~user@83.43.34.249] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:47 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@78.104.80.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:40:46 saccade_ [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THIRTY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:57:52 -!- nconrads [~user@173-23-86-211.client.mchsi.com] has left #scheme 18:58:31 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@224.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:03 alvatar [~alvatar@101.119.20.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 19:01:48 acarrico1 [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-61-242.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 19:03:37 -!- clog [nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:09:12 -!- hhomar [~hhomar@92.27.36.140] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 19:14:56 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-212.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 19:15:48 -!- Matrox [~Matrox@unaffiliated/matrox] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:28:46 -!- luz [~davids@189.60.69.82] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 19:35:30 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-60-113.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 19:35:45 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-62-31.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:40:41 kniu [~kniu@cpe-76-174-76-107.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:46:15 this descends into bizarre ruby-self-congratulation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mslMLp5bQD0 19:46:37 what would happen if scheme had similarly charismatic rhetors: nothing? 19:49:28 "not enough of you know lisp," (22:00) he says, to the ruby-olatrists. 19:49:41 i wonder if they were inwardly agitated at the notion. 19:50:27 kar8nga [~kar8nga@j-224.vc-graz.ac.at] has joined #scheme 19:50:43 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-112-25.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:52:08 phao [~phao@189.107.198.245] has joined #scheme 19:55:30 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.198.245] has quit [Client Quit] 19:55:46 phao [~phao@189.107.198.245] has joined #scheme 19:56:23 klutometis: Too many ruby-ists I've spoken to have been under the delusion that ruby *is* a lisp without the funny parentheses, and thus they don't need to bother. 19:57:56 Oy vei. 19:58:27 chandler: heh; speaking of which: http://www.randomhacks.net/articles/2005/12/03/why-ruby-is-an-acceptable-lisp 19:58:33 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/h63pv 19:59:08 Yes, that's probably the prototypical example of this delusion. 19:59:53 "Similarly, LISP programmers are scarce. If you're around Boston, there's a small pool of grizzled hackers who can very nearly work magic." 20:00:08 Baughn: Eschew TinyScheme. Chibi is a good alternative. Out of curiosity, where does the "small" constraint come from? 20:00:10 i can't tell if he's biased against grizzle, boston, lisp or all three. 20:00:11 *gnomon* points in Riastradh's general direction 20:00:32 klutometis, he's a Ruby user; I suspect that he objects to competence. 20:00:39 Uh, I mean 20:00:49 *gnomon* searches for a polite alternative and comes up empty 20:02:15 Bonus points for use of all-caps LISP in that article. It's a clear sign that the author has had little to no contact with the culture of modern Lisp programmers, and thus probably doesn't even know someone who knows a Lisp well. 20:02:42 Hang on a tic. I didn't mean to imply that Riastradh is a Ruby user, but rather that he is a grizzled hacker. 20:03:45 You confused me for a second, but I quickly dereferenced through backtracking after deriving a contradiction from (Riastradh and (Ruby user)). 20:04:35 Top drawer, sir, top drawer. 20:05:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.229.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:07:10 -!- kniu [~kniu@cpe-76-174-76-107.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:07:51 did Riastradh go to work for ITA, by the way? 20:08:59 That's a good question! He's been rather quiet of late. 20:09:45 I thought he was on a mystical quest for the rarely-attained state of being known as "productivity". 20:09:55 Extra bonus point for comparing Ruby to a family of programming languages while considering it a "single" programming language (LISP, sic). 20:12:25 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 20:13:44 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:14:48 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:17:28 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@101.119.20.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:21:41 hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC5A5CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:45:50 -!- Michael_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:46:26 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:40 WLen [~Len@77.127.31.110] has joined #scheme 20:47:41 schmir` [~schmir@p54A929D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:50:49 -!- schmir [~schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:06 -!- schmir` [~schmir@p54A929D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:32 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:55:14 -!- winxordie [~winxordie@199-49.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:56:43 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 20:56:43 20:56:43 -!- names: ccl-logbot toast` WLen hotblack23 phao kar8nga kephas MrFahrenheit acarrico1 saccade_ mathk MichaelRaskin sepult` stis Baughn broquaint Blkt` jonrafkind fradgers- sladegen mmc1 Jafet sajith bzzbzz leppie joast drafty_ rudybot alaricsp Checkie masm rtra IJP rdd timj_ drwho Nshag e-future thunk doc_who gnomon saccade ToxicFrog ASau eldragon ski tessier moell saint_cypher_ duncanm aoh adadgltmut pjb Axioplase rapacity cipher m`` haesbaert XTL fda314925 20:56:43 -!- names: kencausey futilius rmrfchik weinholt mbishop erg askhader copec shardz daowee mario-goulart zbigniew bremner mhoye twobitsprite ecraven ve Khisanth Leonidas bunzz Reisen roderic Pepe_ gabot rotty klutometis dlouhy_ z0d qebab alexsuraci chiiph dfeuer emma Adrinael eli sjamaan inimino rrm3 paint C-Keen cky felipe yosafbridge adzuci jimrees_ incubot Intensity tltstc ineiros stepnem Obfuscate eno offby1 lisppaste minion specbot mornfall Hal9k elf tizoc 20:56:43 -!- names: chandler sloyd sad0ur pchrist Riviera araujo foof elly ri4a DerGuteMoritz samth nasloc__ 20:58:58 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-212.vinet.ba] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:59:18 karme [~user@stgt-5f70a402.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 20:59:20 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-212.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:00:46 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:00:58 -!- kar8nga [~kar8nga@j-224.vc-graz.ac.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:28 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 21:06:06 Matrox [~Matrox@unaffiliated/matrox] has joined #scheme 21:09:49 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 21:11:53 winxordie [~winxordie@199-49.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:12:23 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:14:54 clog [nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 21:21:11 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:25:24 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.30.106] has joined #scheme 21:25:24 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:31:08 cpr420 [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 21:32:45 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:37:36 schmir [~schmir@p54A901EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:41:02 -!- mathk [~mathk@dispo-82-65-236-245.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 21:43:56 choas [~lars@p5B0DBC8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:54:02 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 21:59:15 -!- acarrico1 [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-61-242.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:04:06 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC5A5CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:08:59 -!- schmir [~schmir@p54A901EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:10:09 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 22:12:05 -!- choas [~lars@p5B0DBC8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:12:31 chandler: "Should not unnecessarily bloat Dwarf Fortress". 22:12:40 chandler: Which is to say, I can't bundle GHC. 22:20:36 Egads, you're attempting to embed Scheme into Dwarf Fortress? 22:20:39 That's doubly insane. 22:20:56 And why would that be? ^_^ 22:21:19 The plan is to move a large fraction of the raws and UI into scheme 22:25:56 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-52-82-65-125-6.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:27:41 minglis [~minglis@203.171.96.17.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #scheme 22:29:19 csmrfx [csmr@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #scheme 22:29:26 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-54-82-251-71-89.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 22:29:35 list of lists? '(a) (b)? 22:29:52 csmrfx, '((a) (b)) 22:30:01 -!- Blkt` [~user@93-33-137-56.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:30:04 ok, thought so 22:31:10 gnomon: Also. It's not insane, it's /dwarven/. 22:33:36 Will this move dramatically improve the performance of Turing-complete lava pits? 22:33:57 Nope, but I believe Toady's recent romance with Callgrind might. 22:33:57 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 22:34:38 acarrico1 [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-61-242.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 22:35:10 I'm cordially disappointed 22:35:59 I smell Armok... 22:36:15 Haskell had the potential to do that, but the lazy nature of the language caused dwarves to go permanently on break. 22:36:42 Maybe you should add tar in a later release, so players can have actual tar-pits. 22:36:57 Ok whats scheme got to do with torturing innocent dwarven immigrants? 22:37:14 csmrfx: What did you think we torture them /with/? 22:37:15 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:37:32 I know what I torture them with 22:39:42 *Baughn* ponders walking fortresses 22:41:09 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1268567 22:41:13 DF3, steampunk? 22:41:49 So, uhh, chibi scheme should work for this stuff 22:42:12 Once I get it building in visual studio 22:46:18 -!- saccade_ [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THIRTY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:47:00 I'm still trying to figure out how would a program learn to recognize patterns, especially attacking patterns, from behaviour of other programs... 22:47:29 Sounds like AI.. 22:48:03 ...seems like only evolution has solved this. But how does AI in Civ or Alpha Centauri work then... 22:48:06 You should have a look at AIXI. It's /probably/ not practical, but definitely inspiring. 22:48:34 csmrfx: ..no. AI has come a very long way since the days of Eurisko. 22:48:41 (You /have/ read about Eurisko, right?) 22:48:56 Hm, lets see what I read... 22:49:00 It's just that human-level intelligence takes an /insane/ amount of computing power 22:49:20 Russell & Norvig 22:49:24 A human brain still outdoes the entire internet by, hm, maybe still a few orders of magnitude 22:49:31 ..2 or 3 22:50:04 AI. It's is a catch-all term to refer to any aspect of human-like behaviour that can't be reproduced in software yet 22:50:09 Yeah. But in a game world, the number of moves is limited, and the spatial space is static. Sigh. 22:50:13 That said, modern AI is in many ways far smarter than human brains. We just don't have anywhere near as much computing power to throw at the problem. 22:50:19 csmrfx: In that case, you can probably try AIXI 22:50:46 I think old Civ etc used pseudorandom logic with bias to make it 'seem' smart 22:51:17 Baughn this eurisko? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurisko 22:53:01 csmrfx: Yes, though there is a much better description somewhere 22:53:47 ..I can't seem to find it. 22:53:57 csmrfx: http://www.hutter1.net/ai/aixigentle.htm <- Anyway, this might be applicable to your problem. 22:54:10 yes, found that 22:55:17 mathk [~mathk@dispo-82-65-236-245.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 22:55:20 Baughn: You might want to look into Gambit, though I'm afraid I don't know offhand how large it would be in this use. 22:56:09 Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@99.227.121.175] has joined #scheme 22:56:19 I'll have a look, thanks 22:56:54 Baughn thanks, aixi seems new to me 22:57:01 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5adb10a1.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 22:57:43 csmrfx: aixi is almost certainly the slowest possible algorithm to solve your problem, but it's also more or less the /simplest/, and it's extremely smart 22:57:52 It's interesting, anyway. 22:58:58 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-54-82-251-71-89.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:59:02 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-54-82-251-71-89.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 22:59:56 Heh after reading a bit I thought why not just apply chess 'optimal move' with some 'jitter' to make it seem 'sentient' 23:01:13 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@99.227.121.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:01:15 Michael_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 23:03:17 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:52 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-54-82-251-71-89.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:03:57 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 23:04:16 Well, just to make a program, or a game that inspires someone to do something like this would be awesome http://www.flickr.com/photos/denee/4536607036/in/set-72157623768412469/ 23:04:41 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-53-82-65-60-119.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 23:07:54 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 23:07:54 23:07:54 -!- names: ccl-logbot Nshag ASau Michael_Mohamed mathk toast` acarrico1 csmrfx minglis bgs100 proq cpr420 pavelludiq clog MononcQc winxordie Matrox antoszka jmcphers MrFahrenheit karme WLen phao kephas MichaelRaskin sepult` Baughn broquaint jonrafkind sladegen mmc1 Jafet sajith bzzbzz leppie joast drafty_ rudybot alaricsp Checkie masm rtra IJP rdd timj_ drwho e-future thunk doc_who gnomon saccade ToxicFrog eldragon ski tessier moell saint_cypher_ duncanm aoh 23:07:54 -!- names: adadgltmut pjb Axioplase rapacity cipher m`` haesbaert elf tizoc chandler sloyd sad0ur pchrist Riviera araujo foof elly ri4a DerGuteMoritz samth nasloc__ Hal9k mornfall specbot minion lisppaste offby1 eno Obfuscate stepnem ineiros tltstc Intensity incubot jimrees_ adzuci yosafbridge felipe XTL fda314925 kencausey futilius rmrfchik weinholt mbishop erg askhader copec shardz daowee mario-goulart zbigniew bremner mhoye twobitsprite ecraven ve Khisanth 23:07:54 -!- names: Leonidas bunzz Reisen roderic Pepe_ gabot rotty klutometis dlouhy_ z0d qebab alexsuraci chiiph dfeuer Adrinael eli sjamaan inimino rrm3 paint C-Keen cky 23:09:05 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:10:57 -!- paint [~paint@unaffiliated/paint] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:11:10 paint [~paint@unaffiliated/paint] has joined #scheme 23:12:24 -!- minglis [~minglis@203.171.96.17.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:17:08 whats the shortest scheme program ever? 23:17:15 0 23:17:30 23:17:34 whats the shortest scheme program that handles input? 23:17:42 (read) 23:17:43 (read) 23:17:48 Aw. Too slow. 23:17:48 jinx 23:17:56 -!- Michael_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:19:02 does scheme have perl like shortform... (l (/$)(mod($1$2)) or summin 23:19:03 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.30.106] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:19:13 no 23:19:18 I can't parse your question, or your example. 23:19:24 hm, does *some popular* scheme 23:19:33 not that i know of 23:20:07 -!- karme [~user@stgt-5f70a402.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:18 that was an imaginary lambda that took the first arg and gave modulus of multiplication or some such made up crap 23:21:47 Many Scheme implementations do support made up crap, but you'll have to make it up yourself. 23:21:56 lol 23:22:08 Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 23:22:31 yeah thought I could, but decided it would violate my lazyness priorization scheme 23:24:39 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 23:24:44 hm, whats a good place for clever scheme snippets? 23:25:33 minglis [~minglis@203.171.96.17.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #scheme 23:25:35 "the little schemer" by friedman and felleisen 23:25:54 hm, I thought its just definitive 23:27:58 yanno, like ((lambda (x) `(,x ',x)) '(lambda (x) `(,x ',x))) 23:29:57 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-150-175.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:31:38 is there a way to refer to the last defined variable? I suppose thats a parser level thing? or part of lexical scoping? 23:31:56 what do you mean, the last defined variable 23:31:59 you use its name 23:32:26 Well, can you see the metaprogramming reasoning for such 23:32:38 No. 23:33:22 "the topmost object in parser var stack?" 23:33:37 is that illegal... 23:33:49 csmrfx, that is unlikely to mean anything in any scheme implementation that i know of 23:33:56 Your mental model needs adjusting. 23:34:01 literally, yeah 23:34:13 yeah, I am thinking like a human 23:34:28 take that alien mindset back to that planet it came from!!! 23:34:39 -!- clog [nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:34:50 What is the use that you're thinking of for this? 23:34:59 um, humans don't refer to the "parser var stack" any more than they have my or chandler's mental model 23:35:06 just trying to learn more about scheming 23:35:29 and maybe throw a couple syntactic somersaults if I can muster that 23:35:35 that's fine, i recommend the resources in \topic 23:36:01 but typically we recommend learning more about scheme before performing syntactic somersaults 23:36:17 samth but the things you last mentioned are clear to you right? 23:36:40 i don't know what "parser vars stacks" are 23:37:13 I dont know either. its not literal. I dont know what scheme engine would call "the things I last mentioned" 23:37:37 can you describe this in terms of some other language? 23:37:49 If you don't know what they are, what did your question mean? 23:38:12 didnt I already describe it in english language 23:38:36 Not in any way that made sense with respect to the Scheme language, no. 23:38:38 i mean some other programming language 23:39:20 Well, most languages dont allow you to touch "the stack" or such 23:39:40 i still don't understand what you mean by "the stack" 23:39:41 There isn't a "stack" per se in Scheme. 23:40:34 davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has joined #scheme 23:40:55 ok, I know what to ask 23:41:04 int _s; void *stack = &_s;? 23:41:22 no, no I didnt 23:41:24 ..plus four, I suppose 23:41:43 Baughn: Not four on *this* computer. 23:41:45 -!- sajith [~sajith@59.164.100.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:41:46 was gonna ask about metaprogramming, but then, I am not sure if such thing exists in scheme 23:41:58 chandler: That's okay, it's UB no matter what your computer 23:42:01 csmrfx, metaprogramming certainly exists in scheme 23:42:22 scheme has probably the most advanced metaprogramming of any language family 23:42:28 Baughn: And it might not be plus, either. 23:42:53 -!- minglis [~minglis@203.171.96.17.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:42:53 Baughn: I don't know what you mean by "UB". 23:42:57 just as long as the lines dont end with an ';' 23:43:21 chandler: Undefined behaviour? 23:43:41 Baughn: Oh. I would actually have gotten it if you had said ND instead of UB. 23:43:41 Hm, whats this stack? http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Displaying-the-Scheme-Stack.html 23:43:42 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/2akhkf8 23:44:02 that's the stack in the same sense as C 23:44:19 csmrfx: An artefact of the guile implementation model. 23:44:21 the one that doesnt exist? :D 23:44:53 I thought I was confused with the idea before, now I dont even know what confused is. 23:45:15 csmrfx, what are you trying to accomplish? 23:45:18 ok, whats heap, then? 23:45:40 samth syntactic somersaults 23:45:41 Please don't try to apply the stack/heap model directly to Scheme. You will become confused very, very quickly when you try to learn about continuations. 23:46:00 Has anyone tried to extend Scheme with System F static typing? 23:46:20 samth: I'm not sure this is the C stack - wingo would need to comment on that. I think it's just an internal stack used by the interpreter for the current continuation. 23:46:29 It's been a while since I looked at guile internals, though. 23:46:30 Baughn, see http://docs.racket-lang.org/ts-guide/index.html 23:47:05 csmrfx: Until you get your footing, I'd suggest approaching Scheme on its terms, not yours. 23:47:19 chandler, i'd expect that the stack displayed in the debugger contained portions of the current continuation, just like C debuggers do 23:47:26 never submit. they were made to serve us. 23:47:45 samth: Yes, but I don't think it's actually the C stack. 23:48:00 chicken, has, stack. 23:48:09 that's what i meant by the "same sense as C", chandler 23:48:11 Ah. 23:48:44 there's also the sense of the C stack in the runtime currently, which is different, and hopefully not what the guile debugger shows 23:48:55 csmrfx: These are artefacts of the implementation, not something that you'll ordinarily be exposed to while programming in Scheme. Attempting to map the stack/heap model onto Scheme is a recipe for confusion. 23:49:13 samth: Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant by "same sense as C". 23:49:24 well, its all bits to me 23:49:31 samth: Well, that's not system f. System f doesn't have dependent types. ;) 23:49:47 Baughn, Typed Scheme doesn't have dependent types either 23:49:49 You mean I cant have my heap and process it, too? 23:50:26 csmrfx: Trying to map Scheme onto what you already know is hardly learning. 23:50:43 samth: Hm, I suppose not. 23:50:51 What are they talking about, then? http://www.cse.iitb.ac.in/~as/mit-scheme/user_3.html#SEC12 23:51:06 Subtyping 23:51:22 csmrfx, they're talking about the details of the MIT Scheme implementation 23:51:23 Oh. never mind. ^^; 23:51:28 I never learned C. It was too crappy. 23:51:39 C is kind of important, though 23:51:41 csmrfx, what have you learned? 23:52:07 Baughn, subtyping, while not in system F, is very important for reasoning about Scheme programs 23:52:29 i doubt you'd have a successful type system for scheme without something that resembeled subtyping 23:52:31 samth does it matter. java, ruby... basic? lol 23:52:43 samth: I can see that. I'd have been fine with a modification that removed the subtypes from scheme, but this is fine too. 23:52:45 lisp, scheme, ecmascript 23:52:47 Now let's see if I can embed it. 23:52:56 csmrfx, it's easier to help people when you know where they're coming from 23:53:31 I'm trying to take a creative approach, even I don't know where I'm coming from 23:53:53 -!- Matrox [~Matrox@unaffiliated/matrox] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:18 the paradox of abstract scheme that has implementations seems strange, tho 23:54:43 csmrfx, are you confused by this for ecmascript and java? 23:54:46 Many programming languages are like that. 23:55:06 certainly not because of java 23:55:11 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:55:13 minglis [~minglis@203.171.96.17.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #scheme 23:55:19 gnight, all 23:55:22 Even single implementation programming languages distinguish between the language and the implementation - or else all bug reports would be closed as "behaves as designed". :-) 23:55:31 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 23:55:41 Just trying to see where the trapdoors are 23:56:46 I'm sorry, but I'm finding this discussion to be very confusing. 23:57:11 So, it must be wor... forking