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mean 01:32:00 make-custodian-box will attach a value to the custodian, but not execute it, afaict 01:33:37 -!- cpr420 [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 01:47:33 cpr420 [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 01:48:56 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.30.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:49:36 -!- jao [~user@83.60.248.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:53:39 FareWell [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:59:36 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-164-157.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:14 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:03:21 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-177-233.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:06:14 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:07:33 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 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for Emacs)] 03:14:48 sunnyps [~sunny@117.98.221.112] has joined #scheme 03:15:14 -!- ktzqbp [~ktzqbp@unaffiliated/ktzqbp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:16:35 -!- sunnyps [~sunny@117.98.221.112] has quit [Client Quit] 03:17:05 sunnyps [~sunny@117.98.221.112] has joined #scheme 03:18:35 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:22:30 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-177-233.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:32:44 -!- luz [~davids@189.60.69.82] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 03:41:21 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:50:16 -!- cpr420 [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 03:53:00 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-177-233.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:06:41 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 04:09:49 -!- sunnyps [~sunny@117.98.221.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:16:56 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-200-215.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:18:56 cpr420 [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 04:23:39 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 04:28:30 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:28:40 sunnyps [~sunny@117.98.191.242] has joined #scheme 04:29:11 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-200-215.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:29:13 -!- sunnyps [~sunny@117.98.191.242] has quit [Client Quit] 04:29:16 maybe add a managed object to the custodian, and have its "will" do whatever? 04:29:18 *offby1* dunno 04:30:22 sunnyps [~sunny@117.98.191.242] has joined #scheme 04:31:27 minglis [~ktzqbp@203.171.96.17.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #scheme 04:32:08 -!- ysph [~user@adsl-221-198-35.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:35:43 -!- minglis [~ktzqbp@203.171.96.17.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 04:36:22 malcolmci [~malcolmci@203.171.96.17.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined 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seconds] 08:03:35 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 08:25:20 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-34-195-15.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:30:03 Blkt [~user@93-33-135-1.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 08:38:24 good day everyone 08:42:18 hhomar [~hhomar@92.27.34.4] has joined #scheme 08:54:28 kar8nga [~kar8nga@78.104.80.211] has joined #scheme 08:55:50 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 08:58:57 -!- xwl [~user@123.115.118.91] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:05:04 masm [~masm@bl19-148-97.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 09:06:33 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:06:47 xwl [~user@123.115.118.91] has joined #scheme 09:08:26 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 09:18:41 -!- Blkt 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#scheme 16:53:51 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 16:54:25 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:00:34 foof, this " that's because ikarus is much, much faster than racket" is not true 17:00:35 samth, memo from neilv: thanks. (dictated but not read) 17:02:57 AqD|Home [~AqD|Home@122-116-21-207.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 17:04:45 \o/ benchmark fight. 17:05:17 bremner, on some benchmarks, ikarus is indeed faster than racket, but not "much much faster" 17:05:51 what kinds of things are faster? 17:06:27 here's a good overview: http://blog.racket-lang.org/2010/01/benchmarks.html 17:06:43 thanks 17:21:13 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-58-147.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:23:16 saccade_ [~saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:47:36 -!- rudybot [~luser@2001:470:1:41:a800:ff:fe3e:cde7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:56:16 -!- sunnyps [~sunny@196.snat-111-91-110.hns.net.in] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:57:06 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:11 -!- FareWell is now known as Fare 18:02:58 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:12:03 jao [~user@83.43.34.249] has joined #scheme 18:14:10 rudybot [~luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 18:16:30 drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-164-157.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:23:09 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-59-82-252-157-114.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:22 mathk [~mathk@83.158.153.167] has joined #scheme 18:44:01 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-129-204.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbount t please] 18:54:26 doc_who [62e78c20@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.231.140.32] has joined #scheme 18:54:31 hello 18:57:46 hello, I must be consing 18:59:08 im working on exercise 12.4.2 in htdp but im having trouble 18:59:10 http://pastebin.com/nXLM1My5 19:02:55 what's the trouble? 19:04:21 its supposed to take a word and a symbol and return a list of words with the symbol inserted in all the different positions 19:04:29 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:04:35 oh, I see the trouble; you described it in the comments. 19:04:54 (ideally you'd have some tests which actually fail, so that I don't have to bother reading the comments :-) 19:05:57 the last one (with two letters already) fails gloriously 19:06:10 which is why its commented out also 19:06:58 by "fail", I mean "raises an exception at runtime". 19:07:00 but anyway. 19:07:11 I am embarrassed to admit that the problem isn't immediately obvious. 19:07:46 the third line should return (cons (cons 'c (cons 'a (cons 'b empty))) (cons (cons 'a (cons 'c (cons 'b empty))) (cons (cons 'a (cons 'b (cons 'c empty))) empty))) if it works properly 19:08:37 gaa that's hard to read. 19:08:46 I realize that that's how the book spells out lists, but ... geez 19:09:04 yea, (list (list 'c 'a 'b) (list 'a 'c 'b) (list 'a 'b 'c)) is the other form 19:09:12 that's hideous too 19:09:18 but it doesnt show up that way when its run >-> 19:09:35 it might, depending on some obscure setting in drscheme 19:09:56 isn't this the book that emphasizes "design recipes"? 19:10:16 i think its one of the other teaching languages that has nicer looking lists 19:10:19 yea it is 19:10:42 did you religiously follow each recipe step? I hear that solves pretty much all problems 19:10:52 oh no i didnt 19:11:18 i heard that too but i dont know which recipe to use. should i look for the most recent one? 19:12:43 dunno 19:12:48 I've never gone through that book 19:13:03 hmm k 19:13:55 i saw http://lists.racket-lang.org/users/archive/2009-May/032758.html and it says to use a design recipe too 19:14:23 m314 [~user@0x573f21e5.arcnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #scheme 19:14:25 offby1: yeah, but then thomas keller sued felleisen over the lemon-brined fried chicken; and SICP retook the glorious sceptre. 19:14:35 i honestly never used the design recipes for any of the exercises 19:14:44 incubot: (= (- (+) (*) (+))) 19:14:44 #t 19:17:50 -!- hhomar [~hhomar@92.27.34.4] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 19:19:49 -!- m314 [~user@0x573f21e5.arcnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has left #scheme 19:21:30 klutometis: you're talking like your bot, now 19:22:34 thunk [~thunk@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #scheme 19:27:31 offby1: ever heard of "french laundry"? 19:29:22 nope & I'm french 19:33:52 klutometis: sure, famous restaurant in Berkley, Alice Waters 19:33:57 Berkeley 19:34:12 *offby1* struggles to decipher the joke 19:35:18 the french don't do laundry silly 19:37:09 offby1, Alice Waters' restaraunt is chez panisse 19:37:15 offby1: right; napa valley, thomas keller. in a parallel universe, he sued the trollish authors of htdp for recipe infringement; such that scheme-padawans were no longer distracted from the real work of SICP. 19:37:19 the french laundry is by thomas keller 19:40:01 im getting closer - http://pastebin.com/x4fku36d 19:40:15 now test2 returns (cons (cons 'a (cons 'b empty)) (cons (cons 'a (cons 'b empty)) empty)) 19:40:25 but i have to go 19:40:27 later 19:40:34 and thanks offby1 19:45:18 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-33-176.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 19:46:26 klutometis: It's "Racket", not "\"Racket\"". 19:49:21 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:49:21 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-178.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:51:47 doc_who: There's only one "the recipe" in the book. 19:52:39 offby1: The quotes can look horrible -- but I can blindly guarantee that Scheme's quote -- when used with more than just symbols -- is one of the most confusing things for scheme newbies. 19:54:34 *offby1* defers to the educator 19:54:44 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-164-157.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:54:51 eli: do you teach classes? 19:55:25 offby1: Yes, and not even newbies -- and it's still a mess to explain. 19:55:37 "what level" was gonna be my next questio 19:55:37 Here's my favorite example: 19:55:38 n 19:55:53 An expression is: 'blank 19:56:02 *offby1* stares blankly 19:56:08 Your job is to find a definition for blank that makes that expression evaluate to 42. 19:56:37 Some way to make this: (define ...) 'blank 19:56:40 evaluate to 42. 19:56:55 other than redefining "quote", I don't see how you could do that 19:57:29 I asked this question a few different times, in a few different occasions. 19:57:39 One very popular answer is: 19:57:44 (define 'blank 42) 19:57:55 mm hmm 19:58:06 This actually works if you do it on the repl, and if blank had a value that it was already bound to. 19:58:21 Now try to explain *why* it works for a few newbies. 19:58:40 That'll be enough to make you convinced that it's confusing. 19:59:11 (begin (define (quote x) (- x)) (define blank -42)) 'blank 19:59:36 scary. 19:59:44 rudybot: eval (define blank 'frink) 19:59:47 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 19:59:53 rudybot: eval (define 'blank 42) 19:59:57 rudybot: eval 'blank 19:59:57 *offby1: ; Value: 42 20:00:01 *offby1* ponders 20:00:06 oh. 20:00:08 rudybot: eval quote 20:00:09 *offby1: ; Value: # 20:00:11 yep 20:00:12 isn't there a rule against redefining quote in scheme? 20:00:14 weird weird weird 20:00:17 guess not. 20:00:30 no syntax is safe. Run for the covers! 20:00:33 rudybot: eval (quote 'too 'many 'args) 20:00:33 *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: too in module: 'program 20:00:34 there is. it's unsafe 20:00:37 anything could happen 20:00:47 and something did happen. something is a subcase of anything 20:00:57 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@224.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:01:00 Yeah -- there's three things that contribute to this being an extremely confusing example: 20:01:11 (a) the fact that quote is a special form that does some magic 20:01:36 (This is confusing indirectly, in the sense that students already take anything related to it as inexplicable black magic) 20:01:41 btw, why is it that you can't redefine special forms? i mean, is it really just a convenience to implementers? 20:01:53 (b) the choice to have "'" be a reader macro for `quote'. 20:01:57 alvatar [~alvatar@224.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 20:02:04 toast`: seems to me I just _did_ redefine a special form 20:02:05 (c) the weird interaction you get with a redefinition on a repl. 20:02:15 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@224.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:21 You're talking about (c) now... 20:02:22 eli: OK, you win 20:02:24 alvatar [~alvatar@224.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 20:02:51 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@224.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:59 In any case, I tried to properly explain this for the few students who would come up with that solution and then complain for getting points off. 20:03:05 alvatar [~alvatar@224.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 20:03:20 And after a few times I just gave up, and instead I asked *them* why they think it works. 20:03:40 Hearing back the explanation and how it's different from theirs was more effective. 20:03:48 offby1 - yes, but that's not portable 20:04:15 But then I just stopped asking it because I think it's as unfair and as unproductive as those nightmarish two weeks of `set-c{a,d}r!' in sicp. 20:04:30 i'm curious the rationale for it being deemed non-portable. the only reason that comes to mind it to make it easier to implement scheme 20:04:51 toast`, what are you claiming is non-portable 20:04:57 that behavior is highly portabl 20:04:58 e 20:05:03 samth: (define quote ...) 20:05:21 (at least under r5rs, i think redefining special forms is not permitted) 20:06:03 toast`, redefining special forms is permitted just as much as any redefinition is permitted in r5rs 20:06:12 and shadowing special forms is always allowed 20:06:57 oh, nevermind then, i was confused :) 20:09:31 -!- hat0 [~hat@cpe-67-9-132-238.austin.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 20:11:21 kar8nga [~kar8nga@78.104.81.128] has joined #scheme 20:16:52 acarrico1 [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-61-242.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 20:18:50 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 20:21:54 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has 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[~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:40:26 The mechanism offered by lisp and scheme compilers to define special forms is called 'macros'. 23:43:04 incubot: The mechanism offered by lisp and scheme compilers to define special forms is called 'macros'. 23:43:08 i didnt turn down anything when i was starving. not that anyone offered. 23:43:21 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 23:46:11 -!- rtra_ [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:47:36 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.156] has joined #scheme 23:55:07 saccade_ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 23:55:42 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]