00:09:12 -!- Sveklo [~sveklo@unaffiliated/sveklo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:00 tommylommykins [~tommylomm@nas44-104.york.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 00:13:01 quick question about the scm implementation of scm: I'm having trouble getting it to print full error messages when things go wrong.. 00:13:29 Is there a way to make the interpreter not truncate these messages? 00:15:37 *scm implementation of scheme, that should read 00:21:48 NFI 00:23:54 -!- mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:59 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@cpc2-sgyl9-0-0-cust659.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 00:36:06 boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 00:47:24 acarrico [~acarrico@24.149.57.185] has joined #scheme 00:55:00 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-116-121.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 01:09:17 nicktick [~nick@58.20.84.117] has joined #scheme 01:21:19 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:21:21 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 01:28:31 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@24.149.57.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:37:15 -!- tommylommykins [~tommylomm@nas44-104.york.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:38:27 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 01:40:42 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 01:45:21 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:00:30 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 02:02:51 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 02:08:06 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:08:32 saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:08:44 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 02:12:43 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:17:41 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:20:05 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:27:13 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:27:57 JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-72-95-150-30.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:30:23 -!- mmc [~michal@cs181176076.pp.htv.fi] has left #scheme 02:31:25 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-202.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:31:45 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-202.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 02:41:17 -!- nicktick [~nick@58.20.84.117] has quit [Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net] 02:41:45 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-202.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:45:00 -!- ktzqbp [~ktzqbp@unaffiliated/ktzqbp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:46:13 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:48:50 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 02:49:59 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53:16 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:53:27 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:05:14 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:05:58 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:13:24 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 03:26:32 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:27:56 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 03:43:29 lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-8-138.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 03:44:19 what's the name of that print book that has the abstract graph like picture on the front cover, that's also available for free online? 03:44:50 have it bookmarked but not on this computer 03:45:06 I know at least twenty dover books that satisfy all but the last 03:45:17 The Scheme Programming Language, perhaps 03:46:21 yeah that's the one, thanks 03:47:17 nicktick [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/nicktick] has joined #scheme 03:47:29 Also, graph? The cover of 4th ed is a knitting or something 03:49:36 well I don't stare at the cover:P 03:55:28 -!- pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-154-25.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:57:20 use___iceWM [~gav@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:57:29 when one comapres go and scheme 03:57:32 what does one see? 03:58:43 pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-154-25.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:59:17 Playing Go involves many schemes. 04:03:30 lol 04:03:36 Checkie [12842@unaffiliated/checkie] has joined #scheme 04:03:39 I think lisp is my next adventure. 04:03:43 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@209.30.43.67] has joined #scheme 04:03:44 I am a master sysadmin 04:03:48 yet a baby progarmmer 04:03:56 and I think programming is much more powerful 04:04:00 I am ready to evolve 04:04:30 In lisp, pokeballs are sold separately. 04:09:02 drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-164-157.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:15:32 use___iceWM: who cares about power, though, except as a mating device? 04:15:44 and programming rarely gets you laid. 04:16:18 so we have first 04:16:28 second, rest etc 04:16:40 does cons have a "modern" equivalent? 04:17:07 lewis1711: by modern, you mean less interesting? 04:17:23 nope; cons is an unimpeachable atom. 04:17:42 by modern, i mean not archaic 04:17:52 (define defrauds cons) 04:17:57 but surely "first", "second" are older words! 04:17:59 I suppose I can just remember it as being short for "concatenate", though I think it has some other meaning 04:18:03 jesus christ; think through things. 04:18:06 older, but not archaic 04:18:15 there is a distinction 04:18:33 step outside of your comfort zone, dude; become fluent in something interesting. mit cats "cdr" down the lunch menu. 04:18:43 it's only archaic in prosaic circles. 04:19:05 I don't care what people at MIT do 04:19:19 then don't abuse us with your anglo-saxon bias. 04:20:50 ...just realised I've been trolled 04:20:53 good work:( 04:21:21 oh I am single 04:21:25 and I love to have sx 04:21:28 a lot 04:21:30 love big tits 04:25:23 -!- xwl [~user@123.115.121.112] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26:21 xwl [~user@123.115.121.112] has joined #scheme 04:32:46 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 04:36:15 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:47:54 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@96-42-84-114.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:48:38 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@96-42-84-114.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:51:57 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-37-231.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:12:59 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 05:13:44 Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE001a70766360-CM0011aea1b818.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 05:13:49 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-8-138.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:41:47 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #scheme 05:55:47 -!- Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE001a70766360-CM0011aea1b818.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:58:15 lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-8-138.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 05:59:39 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@96-42-84-114.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 06:16:38 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@96-42-84-114.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 06:19:56 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@209.30.43.67] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 06:27:18 edlinde [~edlinde@cpc2-sgyl9-0-0-cust659.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 06:28:09 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-164-157.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:29:06 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:33:14 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 06:49:32 how do I get the exponential operator? 06:50:38 You could bind it to expt 06:50:54 oh, so I have to roll my own? 06:51:50 It's called expt. 06:52:09 You could also bind it to PURPLE-HIPPO, as I'm told is the fashion in some parts. 06:52:18 so it is 06:53:14 The natural generalization by Conway can then be called PURPLE-HYPPO 06:55:00 *gnomon* nods sagely 07:00:30 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:01:19 NERDS 07:01:58 *gnomon* readies the wedgie-proof undies 07:02:15 Though really, wedgie-resistant is the best that modern science has attained so far. 07:02:20 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:02:23 haha 07:03:10 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 07:03:15 Scheme is much more readable to me if the closing parents are given a line of their own 07:04:34 :/ 07:06:12 drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-164-157.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:06:46 http://paste.pocoo.org/show/230519/ n levels of indentation followed by n closing parens 07:06:51 it just makes sense 07:08:32 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 07:08:52 I'm sure it does, if you've ingested enough psychotropics beforehand. 07:10:52 how else do you keep track of the number?:/ 07:12:06 editors usually can keep track of them very easily 07:12:09 That's like asking how you keep track of the precise number of times the letter "e" appears in your source files: it's entirely possible to solve that problem, and with some work you can even automate it and build it smoothly into your workflow; but if that's the problem you're trying to solve, you're doing something dramatically wrong. 07:13:06 lewis1711, the answer is that you stop paying attention to parens and just use indentation, with a paren matching editor to show you what you're closing when you close a paren 07:13:18 what editor do you use? 07:13:45 gedit 07:13:52 what is paren matching? 07:14:40 e.g. you type ")" and it flashes the "(" that it closes 07:15:02 your probem is that you use gedit, wtf is that 07:15:12 a text editor 07:15:20 sure, no offense, just saying 07:15:40 parens matching sounds nice 07:16:00 have you used emacs? 07:16:38 ah yeah I am a newbie and was wondering if there was anything other than emacs that you could use to code lisp? 07:16:43 I see vim does it 07:16:59 does anyone code on a mac? 07:17:04 no. it should be downloaded by the end of the year though 07:17:07 edlinde, I'm sure that some people do. 07:17:33 edlinde, i code on a mac using aquamacs, an emacs for os x 07:17:38 gnomon: can you suggest a few? I use textmate for most of my coding and I love the syntax highlighting etc 07:17:42 -!- C-Keen [ckeen@pestilenz.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:17:59 there we go, clicked a box "highlight matching bracket" 07:18:04 thanks for the suggested JoelMcCracken 07:18:09 JoelMcCracken: I was trying to get the hang of emacs a few years back and it was a pain in the butt to remember all those commands 07:18:23 :) 07:18:41 edlinde, honestly, I would really strongly recommend that you pick up either vim or emacs, and ideally both. You'll find the learning curve to be a bit steep, but the payoff is that there is effectively no limit to how you can leverage the tool(s) to improve your effectiveness with it(/them). 07:18:52 edlinde, i understand. take out a sheet of paper and write down the command you forget. and then you wont ever have that problem again 07:19:03 hmm 07:19:07 C-Keen [ckeen@pestilenz.org] has joined #scheme 07:19:10 maybe I should get one of those cheat sheets 07:19:16 seriously, it really is not that hard 07:19:26 i know both, as gnomon says 07:19:27 what I hated the most was that I wanted my editor to be real simple... and intuitive 07:19:29 unless you try and configure the editor 07:19:31 The trick is to use the commands you forget over and over again. Eventually you'll still forget, but your fingers will remember. 07:19:32 then...good luck! 07:19:42 yeah I know vi... but I don't like to use it so much 07:19:58 vi is one thing, vim is another entirely. 07:20:01 I don't see why these text mode editors don't have GUIs to configure them 07:20:05 hmmm 07:20:12 it's 2010 for crying out loud 07:20:17 lewis1711, they do. Vim and emacs both have entirely serviceable GUI interfaces. 07:20:29 lewis1711, you're complaining about a problem that ceased to exist many years ago. 07:20:42 i mean with vi you got to press weird characters like g or h to move one character here and there.. 07:20:44 GVim? oh yes. the one that can't tab 07:21:09 have not tried the "graphical emacs" equivalent, whatever it's called 07:21:24 It's called emacs. 07:21:24 I am actually reading through the little schemer right now... its actually a pretty good fun book 07:21:37 xemacs? 07:21:48 No. Xemacs is a fork of the GNU emacs codebase. 07:21:48 gvims GUI is still stuck in the 90s anyway 07:21:54 there is this whole big war between xemacs and emacs yeah? 07:21:57 *gnomon* shrugs 07:22:12 Are we literally having an editor war here? 07:22:16 at uni some people suggest using xemacs 07:22:18 It's 2010, for crying out loud. 07:22:18 none of this is relevant. 07:22:40 If you're paying attention to the GUI portions of the editor, you're effectively wasting your time. If that's what you're looking for in an editor, I'm sure that there are plenty of choices out there which let you assign arbitrary bitmaps or vector graphics to their UI. 07:22:43 this is all background knowledge 07:22:47 so you are saying if you code LISP you must learn emacs! 07:22:54 edlinde, not at all. 07:22:54 thats the bottom line really 07:23:01 edlinde, you 07:23:05 or gvim 07:23:07 're seriously mistaken 07:23:25 edlinde, you can use whatever you like. Some highly regarded Scheme coders use extremely impoverished tools. It's not the tool that matters. 07:23:26 ok then what other editors can I use to code LISP? 07:23:58 download racket at racket-lang.org 07:24:00 edlinde, emacs and vim are the ones which, out of the box, make the process easiest for experts. 07:24:01 ok but seeing that there are millions of brackets in lisp... I would love something that would atleast match brackets 07:24:04 (is it called dr racket?) 07:24:11 gnomon: to change the colour scheme in gedit, I go into a menu, and cycle through colour schemes, where they change dynamically though my eyes. in terminal vim, I have to remember the command to list them all, the command to set them all, and then input those commands all over again when I want to try another one. GVim is slightly better, in that there's atleast a graphical menu, but it still won't do it dynamically like a modern app sh 07:24:14 and then code in dr racket 07:24:16 JoelMcCracken, that's a good question. I haven't refreshed my terminology there. 07:24:23 lewis1711, you got cut off at "modern app sh". 07:24:34 modern app should 07:24:46 edlinde, i serously just solved your problem, listen to what i say 07:24:55 ah racket 07:25:02 sorry my bad... didn't see that 07:25:03 :) 07:25:09 edlinde: gedit matches brackets. and I am sure that your mac text editor does, in some option somewhere 07:25:20 sure, just saying, i know what you want, and trying to give it to you 07:25:28 that's what I said to her 07:25:29 k 07:25:37 dr scheme (dr racket?) is reallly effing nice 07:26:30 lewis1711, ok. I'm not about to tell you that the things you prioritize in an editor are unimportant. I'm just saying that I don't find colour choices to be particularly pertinent *to me* to producing good code. 07:26:33 lewis1711, there is also the question of auto tabing, etc. actually if this is a problem for you, maybe you'd enjoy racket also? 07:26:50 You can poke bits to disk with M-x butterfly for all I care. If it works for you, that's grand. 07:26:51 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:26:59 I can't think of many editors that don't do auto tabbing 07:27:17 and racket is downloaded but not installed. in the midst of a big update. will try it out 07:27:17 sorry, intelligent tabbing to scheme 07:27:52 JoelMcCracken: sorry.. is racket a programming language? 07:28:09 am looking at http://racket-lang.org/ 07:28:15 ignore that whole bit 07:28:19 haha 07:28:26 it is scheme with other stuff 07:28:38 once you become part of the community, you will get it 07:28:48 just belive me that I am not steering you in the wrong direction 07:28:48 k 07:28:54 yes trying to call it a new langauge called racket seems a bit weird. racket scheme seems like a better choice. but whatever. 07:28:59 nah nah I don't believe that you are 07:29:17 I was just confused when it said its a programming language thats all :) 07:29:55 it is, but the thing is that the lines between programming languages blur when you get to the lisp level 07:30:41 k 07:31:01 i am getting my head around car and cdr right now in little schemer... 07:31:05 It's one of the perils of espousing a programmable programming language! 07:31:10 thought it would be good to try it out as I go 07:31:13 But as far as perils go, this one is particularly awesome. 07:31:18 you can just use first and rest 07:31:28 much easier to remember 07:31:43 and it amounts to the same thing? 07:31:49 yes 07:31:51 k 07:32:03 I just started looking at this stuff last night 07:32:05 :) 07:32:09 S-expressions and stuff 07:32:18 what is you're programming history? 07:32:31 I have never done any functional programming 07:32:40 besides that 07:32:48 but next course after my summer break is a FP course using Standard ML 07:33:04 C/C++ are my strongest... then perl and some java 07:33:31 my advice is to stop working through schemer and start on SICP 07:33:36 so yeah now I want to work on this recursive style of thinking 07:33:47 whats SICP? 07:34:04 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 07:34:04 The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs. 07:34:04 this 07:34:18 I was advised to read schemer because it apparently helps understand recursion 07:34:21 is that right? 07:34:27 i'm not saying totally ignore schemer, just view it as an additional resource 07:34:37 saying that puts too much emphasis on recursion 07:34:39 its not that hard 07:34:57 the best way to understand it is to understand it in the context of other things 07:35:06 It's like counting parentheses. Don't focus on that part, it'll disappear into the background when you're doing it right. 07:35:09 dzhus [~sphinx@89-178-199-63.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 07:35:16 ok 07:35:29 gnomon, what he said ^^^ 07:35:52 I mean I was doing a c++ project recently that had to use some heavy tree recursion 07:36:06 gnomon: it's much better now with parens matching 07:36:07 and I realized that my recursion was a bit weak 07:36:18 I understand your pain. It will be gone with enough SICP 07:36:19 so I want to be at a level where I can spot when to use recursion 07:36:36 There will come a point where there are no more parentheses. 07:36:37 also, you will do a lot of awesome stuff along the way. 07:36:47 is SICP good for any functional programming? 07:36:48 And no, paredit doesn't count. 07:37:02 But I like the parentheses:( 07:37:08 edlinde, absolutely. 07:37:35 did you do K&R 07:37:35 JoelMcCracken: so this book is tailored towards only FP or even imperative programming? 07:37:37 it's why I am trying to learn FP with Scheme. i took I look at and thought "hey everything is a the same structure, nice" 07:37:42 edlinde, SICP is good for learning functional programming, but arguably bad for learning *pure* functional programming. It is taught as a technique, not as an ideology. 07:37:43 yeah did K&R 07:38:22 by pure do you mean like haskell? 07:38:42 its kind of like K&R, e.g. program the functional bits yourself, use them, all the while doing just really awesome fun stuff 07:39:06 so you are saying this is the K&R for Func programming? 07:39:07 :) 07:39:10 no 07:39:16 its better than K&R 07:39:20 edlinde, Haskell is one of those languages which I would term ideologically functional, yes. 07:39:33 because it actually makes you _love programming_ 07:39:44 Ah too late 07:39:44 look, just do it 07:39:47 I already do :) 07:39:48 =) 07:40:01 oh btw 07:40:07 whats this concept of first and rest? 07:40:23 I saw this on a haskell online tutorial too for a quick sort implementation 07:40:29 is this explained well in that book? 07:40:32 yes 07:40:45 I did not get functional programming until I did SICP 07:40:47 seems like most FP langs have this concept of the first element followed by the rest 07:40:50 then, i got all over it 07:40:55 kewl 07:41:02 sounds like the thing to read 07:41:11 let me see if I can get it in PDF format or something 07:41:12 :) 07:41:20 *gnomon* facepalms 07:41:45 ... i gave you the html link...? 07:41:48 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 07:41:53 yeah I know 07:41:58 Honestly, this fixation that people have on using that format for purposes to which it is wildly unsuitable never ceases to drive me batty. 07:42:00 its a pain to read the html 07:42:10 gnomon: therapy helps 07:42:22 yeah but would you like to click on next page and read it like that? 07:42:25 Okay, one stipulation 07:42:31 I much prefer just scrolling through that shit 07:42:33 :) 07:42:35 my advice may be very wrong if you don't do the exercises 07:42:38 lewis1711, I haven't yet found one person cured of PDF-itis by therapy. I say you lie. 07:42:52 hahahaha 07:43:01 how do you scroll with html?:P 07:43:04 JoelMcCracken: ok so I got to do the excercises 07:43:16 this is how you learn. 07:43:18 It's an improvement over PS-itis. 07:43:24 This is not a bad thing. 07:43:27 Its fun 07:43:34 just think of it as a video game 07:43:36 yeah i know 07:43:43 do I need a compiler? 07:43:47 a lisp one? 07:43:48 Jafet, I don't know about that. I generally prefer PostScript to PDF. At least PostScript is easily editable by hand, and fun to hack! 07:43:49 dr scheme 07:43:52 err 07:43:55 racket 07:43:56 that 07:44:00 ah ok 07:44:03 you code in the dr racket 07:44:07 and press "run" 07:44:20 or w/e i have no idea if that is what the new editor is called 07:44:57 there is dr scheme in it too 07:45:13 gnomon, and takes forever to render 07:45:47 is there a ps renderer that isnt garbage? 07:45:55 "A computational process is indeed much like a sorcerer's idea of a spirit. It cannot be seen or touched. It is not composed of matter at all. " I am not high enough to read SICP 07:46:10 lewis1711, that's a totally solvable problem. 07:46:34 :D 07:46:48 Jafet, I've honestly never run into that problem. You may be spot on. 07:47:09 Jafet, ah, actually I lie. It took ages to render Shivers's highest resolution PostScript hex maze. 07:47:44 That is, the Maze for the Truly Persistent. 07:48:27 There's the odd sicko publisher who vectorizes bitmaps 07:49:26 Bitmaps are for weenies anyhow. 07:49:34 *gnomon* ducks and runs 07:50:12 *Jafet* draws a weenie 07:50:33 a 07:50:41 Well, yes, I admit that bitmaps are good for that. 07:50:42 is there an inbuilt function for drawing weenies? 07:50:43 its interesting to me that you expect to be flamed for that comment 07:51:37 JoelMcCracken, my earlier assertion that window dressing did nothing to improve the effectiveness of a text editor was not exactly met with unanimous agreement. 07:52:29 Approach not with paint near a bike shed. 07:52:31 o 07:53:04 JoelMcCracken: I am looking at the examples... are they all scheme? 07:53:14 or some flavor of lisp? 07:53:15 which examples? 07:53:19 in SICP sorry 07:53:24 scheme 07:53:28 ok 07:53:33 are you having problems executing? 07:53:39 in racket it asked me to configure a language 07:53:46 yeah its a werid config 07:53:46 add #lang scheme to the top 07:54:11 see, scheme has changed since SICP was written 07:54:18 top of every program like an include header you mean? 07:54:20 thus it isn't an irrelevant language 07:54:24 yes 07:54:27 ah ok 07:54:30 but not totally 07:54:38 they're different, you'll learn eventually 07:54:42 I was just typing out stuff in the interactive prompt 07:54:48 for now, just add "#lang scheme" 07:55:23 yep done that 07:55:23 yeah well the prompt needs an environment to execute in, which is defined/provided by that line 07:55:54 oh a warning 07:56:06 A wild Warning appears! 07:56:07 it works 07:56:08 you will *hate* all of the languages you know once you know scheme 07:56:23 yeah yeah sure thing :) 07:56:29 haha 07:56:45 as a maths major I have finally come to terms with my gripes regarding C-likes 07:56:45 or I might grow fonder of them after I work with scheme 07:56:59 seriously, you will, and it can cause some alienatin between you and your classmates, which you may or may not care about 07:57:26 hahaha nah people don't care so much what language you use as long as it works 07:57:29 if "this is too easy" is considered a gripe, i can understand 07:57:37 edlinde, what world are you from! 07:57:51 the perfect one 07:57:52 :) 07:57:54 certainly not mine! 07:57:59 hahaha 07:57:59 haha 07:58:06 sounds like 07:58:08 yeah you get the zealots here and there 07:58:19 but who gives a toss really 07:58:23 especially lispers, those guys are crazy 07:58:26 ohshit, wrong room! 07:58:35 hahaha 07:58:44 *gnomon* slaps lewis1711 with a soggy lambda 07:58:59 yeah we got a few lispers at uni.. some profs and they go on about how its the best thing since sliced bread 07:59:07 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@89-178-199-63.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:59:41 but I mean if you wanted to get some performance out of lisp and tune it.... how do you go about doing that? 07:59:51 it is. if it had the libs, i would use it exclusively 08:00:02 in terms of zealots, the worst I've come across are old men. "back in my day I cut my teeth on assembler/basic/C, blah blah blah...." 08:00:08 edlinde, you'd be surprised how fast lisp can be w/ type declarations 08:00:18 say you wrote a one liner that built a whole tree for you ... and then you got to do all sorts of stuff on it.. but then you have say memory issues or its slow as crap 08:00:26 hmm 08:00:43 well for example 08:00:44 listen, all that stuff about lisp being slow is pretty much wrong 08:01:03 and, *you can always drop to c for the really important stuff* 08:01:20 I was going to ask about that actually 08:01:20 we had this cryptography assignment to break a code or whatever and our C implementation was much faster than this other groups LISP one 08:01:20 which, in the end, *simply means we agree with you*, so there is no reason to argue anymore 08:01:29 what's the bridge between C and Scheme like? 08:01:35 but then someone pointed out that the LISP implementation was done badly 08:01:53 small 08:02:04 http://docs.racket-lang.org/inside/index.html 08:02:12 these guys were using Loops in LISP 08:02:29 and the lecturer who was another lisper was like.. wtf .. why are you using loops 08:02:38 stop coding in lisp he goes to him :) 08:02:50 well i mean 08:02:58 cryptography is a bad application 08:03:03 its a bad example 08:03:05 but he did achieve the same in much lesser lines of code 08:03:18 look, the only thing worse than a slow program is a program that doesn't exist. 08:03:25 yeah 08:03:36 lisp makes the impossible, well, possible 08:03:49 then you can make the few slow parts faster 08:03:52 I feel that some tasks would be best achieved with FP 08:04:10 i regularly feel the pain of having to program in python and how anti FP it is 08:04:17 like any sort of tree structure or whatever would be piece of cake in LISP... but in C it can be a nightmare 08:04:30 it makes me less productive on a very regular basis 08:04:30 but I hear Python got some ideas from FP as well 08:04:40 monads or some shit? 08:04:53 yeah I know what you mean 08:04:55 eehhhhh 08:05:08 or is that a haskell thing 08:05:11 i mean, in my mind monads are haskell, which is a very new fp 08:05:12 they love it :) 08:05:14 Python has list comprehensions. and functions can be used as arguments 08:05:17 it isnt totally *wrong* 08:05:32 C has functions that can be used as arguments 08:05:33 yeah and perl too has a MAP function 08:05:38 as well as anonymous functions 08:05:41 which I think is again been copied from FP 08:05:43 JoelMcCracken: pointers to them 08:05:56 function pointers yeah 08:05:57 all functions are pointers to them 08:06:08 aha 08:06:09 actually i have no idea if what I said is right 08:06:14 but i think it is 08:06:29 its been a few years since i've done any serious c 08:06:36 yeah its right 08:06:57 you can have pointers to functions 08:07:08 lewis1711, i understnad what you'ree saying, and i respect it, just from experience its wrong 08:07:19 and yeah when you call a function potiner you can just put in the name of the function and it works 08:07:36 i acutally spent a while recently debugging some problem with the pythong implementation of list comprehensions 08:08:29 wow 634 pgs 08:08:35 will take me a while this SICP 08:08:36 :) 08:09:03 v 08:09:05 http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2008/05/28/book-review-structure-and-interpretation-of-computer-programs-by-harold-abelson-gerald-jay-sussman/ 08:09:05 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/3ec4fk 08:09:13 however, you may be interested in seeing this 08:09:14 review 08:09:34 as an indpendent verification that, yes, indeed, this book is sweet 08:09:49 ah no I believe you 08:10:07 yeah but read this review anyway 08:10:10 you'll like it 08:11:15 yeah 08:11:22 done reading it 08:11:25 sounds good to me :) 08:11:37 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:12:35 so it sounds like a good idea to have some programming background then 08:13:12 certainly 08:13:25 kewl ok I am off to read it 08:13:32 thnks for the pointers 08:13:35 yep 08:13:45 and I dont mean C pointers ... dont worry :) 08:15:04 so why is scheme nicer than say python? 08:16:01 problematic question, do you happen to like python? 08:17:15 nope 08:17:39 I like forth haskell and common lisp and perhaps scheme now that I heard its macro are as good as common lisp 08:17:48 but I am not much of a programmer 08:19:16 it's sort of apples and oranges to me 08:19:32 I can imagine comparing Python to Ruby 08:19:43 but Python to scheme seems too far apart to be meaningful 08:20:04 *meaningfully compared 08:21:41 well both are programming languages 08:21:48 both are used to solve problems 08:21:57 And Jesus spake, Can the blind lead the blind? Shall they not both fall into the ditch? 08:22:11 jesus nor moses ever existed 08:22:19 anyhow 08:22:25 I like odin and poseidon 08:26:11 well you can also use a pen and paper to solve problems, if it comes to that:/ 08:27:11 stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 08:27:18 well you can nuke israel and end a lot of prblems too 08:27:25 but I want to solve them conveniently 08:27:33 with a free software programming language 08:29:59 I don't think you quite understand geopolitics if you think nuking israel would solve more problems than it creates 08:30:36 I don't think you quite understand that you are in the wrong channel 08:31:06 Kindly discuss toe-to-toe nuclear combat in #politics. 08:31:51 lets talk about scheme and python 08:32:08 how would scheme allow you to solve a problem easier than python? 08:32:49 Let's talk about scheme and not talk about python. 08:33:22 let's talk about Jafets mum 08:33:22 well you are talking about scheme 08:33:25 by comparing it 08:33:41 how can one find merit in something with out comparison 08:34:01 it'd make more sense to compare it to another FP 08:34:31 Python is multi-paradigm but leans more towards OOP than FP 08:35:09 This channel is for talking about scheme, not making infantile and uninformed comparisons and generalizations. 08:36:15 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-72-95-150-30.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:36:37 tommylommykins [~tommylomm@nas44-104.york.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 08:38:16 Jafet: I am not concerned with your opinions 08:38:34 and quite frankly infantile is irritating 08:38:42 can you keep your yammering to yourself? 08:38:51 Yes, you are being irritating. 08:38:57 nuke israel! 08:39:03 nuke it into the sstong age! 08:39:10 stone age! 08:39:13 nuke israel!! 08:39:16 IRC and beer, a dangerous combination 08:39:16 ok? 08:40:05 -!- cpr420 [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 08:40:48 oh I'm sober 08:41:00 ohhh, so you're just retarded? 08:41:14 but beer is reason I am banned from haskell and forth channels 08:41:19 no I am a genius 08:41:19 lol 08:41:32 and a published authot 08:41:35 author 08:42:07 nuke israel into the sstong age! authot: use___iceWM 08:42:14 aye 08:42:17 available at all good bookstores 08:42:38 nuke israel into the stone age!!! not to be confused with: queens of the stone age! 08:44:01 ah well 08:44:26 scheme scheme scheme 08:44:34 I have this book called the little schemer 08:44:46 its kinda interesting 08:55:28 masm [~masm@bl16-180-58.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 08:56:54 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 08:56:54 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #scheme 08:57:47 ah well you jerkoffs are annoying nerds 08:57:48 late 08:57:51 -!- use___iceWM [~gav@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 08:58:25 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-166-246.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 08:58:30 cpr420 [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has joined #scheme 09:02:29 -!- tommylommykins [~tommylomm@nas44-104.york.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:05:25 m`` [~m@usealice.org] has joined #scheme 09:10:13 hhomar [~hhomar@92.27.43.10] has joined #scheme 09:17:21 phao [~phao@189.107.130.159] has joined #scheme 09:17:32 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.130.159] has left #scheme 09:20:17 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-164-157.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:26:27 phao [~phao@189.107.130.159] has joined #scheme 09:28:03 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@cpc2-sgyl9-0-0-cust659.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 09:30:01 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.130.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:02 edlinde [~edlinde@cpc2-sgyl9-0-0-cust659.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 09:30:08 phao [~phao@189.107.130.159] has joined #scheme 09:30:11 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.130.159] has left #scheme 09:31:49 i am a jerk 09:33:34 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5adb10a1.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 09:33:39 ok.. 09:36:09 phao [~phao@189.107.130.159] has joined #scheme 09:38:21 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.130.159] has left #scheme 09:39:29 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@cpc2-sgyl9-0-0-cust659.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 09:39:35 edlinde [~edlinde@cpc2-sgyl9-0-0-cust659.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 09:44:02 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@cpc2-sgyl9-0-0-cust659.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:53:44 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:00:02 dzhus [~sphinx@89-178-193-105.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 10:00:20 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 10:06:54 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:10 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-200-215.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:25:28 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@89-178-193-105.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26:56 dzhus [~sphinx@89-178-193-105.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 10:28:11 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:33:36 -!- hybrid_mind [~hybrid_mi@unaffiliated/hybrid-mind/x-023851] has quit [Quit: hybrid_mind] 10:38:58 spend most of your time scheming and you'll not feel comfortable hacking in python. the same is true in reverse, so the question of which lang is better for solving "problems" is irrelevant, at least until you advance with a specific problem. 10:41:23 nah, scheme is better 10:43:12 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 10:43:22 you're right. my mistake. 10:44:00 frankly, anything is better than python 10:45:08 m``, wouldn't be so sure about Perl and C++? 10:45:20 I like python:) 10:45:50 Michael, well, perl is def. better than python and c++... well, we 10:46:06 'll talk when there will be any c++ compilers awaliable 10:46:30 m``, there is one - Comeaut. It's just that no one has ever used it 10:46:55 Python code requires less effort to read than Perl 10:47:10 Perl code can be written in many ways 10:47:27 my code can be read very easily :) 10:47:32 Yes, and it even begins very well-written 10:47:55 indeed 10:47:56 also 10:47:59 Unfortunately, later it becomes less readable - and Perl gives a lot of ways to achieve it 10:48:02 are you talking about comeau? 10:48:08 Oops 10:48:12 I guess I mistyped 10:48:30 Comeau C/C++TM 4.3.10.1 Compiler Front-End! 10:48:31 Custom Cross Platform Solutions 10:48:31 Custom Embedded Systems Ports 10:48:31 Breathtaking C++ Support 10:48:31 Amazing C99 Support 10:48:31 Fabulous C89/C90 Support 10:48:31 Available "Everywhere" 10:48:33 lol 10:48:59 "Bursting With So Much Language Support It Hurts!" 10:49:11 (I always evaded C++ figuring Object Pascal with my own code generation tool is less brain damage) 10:49:12 i like these guys 10:49:15 justo for $50 bux you can get a full ANSI compiler for some shitty language 10:49:31 *just 10:49:57 Seriously, C++ is a joke 10:50:17 A lot of people say that Perl is unreadable. Have they ever seen C++? 10:50:32 it's the best 1980s could not offer... 10:51:33 There is a reason I mentioned both 10:52:02 Perl is readable 10:52:14 sladegen: smalltalk? 10:52:55 bigtalk! 10:54:03 Among object-oriented systems 1980s had CLOS to offer 10:55:06 i now, just saying that there was a reason microsoft went with c++ in 1990 and it "won"... 10:56:19 not perfect is best oikonomikally speaking. 10:56:22 Well, C++ has the only benefit of being nearly-conservative extension of C 10:57:00 Incorrect approach to legacy and compatibility is what kills programming as industry since forever 10:57:04 right... and second placed apple went with objc... nuf said. 10:57:59 apple is the most lame corporation ever 10:59:11 and sun... the wet dream of computer engineering was bought out... by some random database company. 10:59:39 -!- dzhus [~sphinx@89-178-193-105.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:03:39 kassens [~kassens@P3106.pallas.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #scheme 11:04:20 meh, sun had its good and bad points. 11:04:33 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-180-58.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:04:51 I mean, DEC is gone, HP is mostly gone, why priviledge sun? 11:04:58 Wet dreams of hot coffee. 11:05:35 is there a shorthand for (lambda () (f 1)) which doesnt evaluate f? I thought of curry, but that evaluated f 11:05:43 dzhus [~sphinx@93-80-202-107.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 11:05:50 No, but there is delay. 11:06:32 masm [~masm@bl16-180-58.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 11:07:48 or use a macro... 11:08:57 sladegen, meh. If someone claps in the forest... 11:09:48 *sladegen* eats apples under the sun while restoring HP, dec. 11:10:17 ...then someone must have at least two hands in the forest. 11:10:49 and be alive. dead men don't clap 11:11:52 edlinde [~edlinde@cpc2-sgyl9-0-0-cust659.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 11:11:59 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@cpc2-sgyl9-0-0-cust659.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:12:16 it is possible that someone tied corpses handes to the tree branches and the motion of the wind makes them clap, though... 11:14:12 incubot: say "nothing". 11:14:17 i call it in an if, if I take that out .. i'll have nothing on one of the if's options 11:14:55 *sladegen* imagines the forest of one branched ifs... lolsee1!!!11!!1 12:05:40 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:08:16 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 12:11:12 xmonader [~xmonader@82.201.219.235] has joined #scheme 12:11:20 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-22.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 12:16:11 -!- bokr [~eduska@94.41.225.185.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:19:16 -!- cpr420 [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 12:37:38 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 12:50:56 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-180-58.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:00:41 masm [~masm@bl19-137-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 13:02:05 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #scheme 13:03:01 -!- lewis1711 is now known as monkey_hunter 13:04:28 edlinde [~edlinde@cpc2-sgyl9-0-0-cust659.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 13:05:05 shit scheme is addictive :) 13:05:13 I just started looking at SICP 13:06:01 put down the chalupa 13:08:55 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-160-224.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:09:29 bokr [~eduska@94.41.225.185.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #scheme 13:10:56 i need a simple to follow article on continuations 13:11:09 no such thing :-) 13:11:36 i read that http://tech.phillipwright.com/2010/05/23/continuations-in-scheme/ and a few more but still didn't fully grasped it 13:11:45 There is, alas, no excessive proliferation of call/cc tutorials. 13:11:52 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:52 I don't believe I understand 'em either, but I don't let that bother me 13:13:18 Jafet: i can't believe the usage of it can be only limited to escaping hmm 13:13:30 you'll understand them when you'll need to use them... 13:14:37 sladegen: i'm familiar as well with coroutines but my problem is with the abstract 13:15:31 abstractly they are useless. 13:16:32 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:16:40 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:17:57 all the more so because languages as we undestand them and use them commonly are about textual or vocal abstractions whereas continuations are about the process of computation which for us is unconscious... 13:18:22 *sladegen* blows some smoke more. 13:18:46 The semantics of (scheme) continuations can be described in a few lines 13:20:34 -!- monkey_hunter is now known as lewis1711 13:22:30 -!- xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:24:51 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-137-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:27:36 xwl_ [~user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 13:27:37 phao [~phao@189.107.191.39] has joined #scheme 13:38:21 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-8-138.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:31 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@cpc2-sgyl9-0-0-cust659.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 14:00:21 -!- xmonader [~xmonader@82.201.219.235] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:11:04 masm [~masm@bl19-137-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 14:11:50 jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:18:03 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:22:52 luz [~davids@189.60.69.82] has joined #scheme 14:23:23 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-200-215.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:28:14 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-137-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:30:48 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 14:42:17 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-33-22.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:43:14 masm [~masm@bl19-137-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 14:46:06 gobble gobble gobble gobble 14:49:00 boggle boggle 14:52:16 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:04 Quoth each turkey: "I am an INDIVIDUAL!" 14:56:44 alvatar [~alvatar@70.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 14:58:10 -!- kassens [~kassens@P3106.pallas.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #scheme 15:05:03 geirr [~geirr@cm-84.215.147.252.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 15:17:29 hmm 15:17:39 should I use scheme for programming embedded devices? 15:17:45 anybody has any articles about that? 15:18:03 and what HW should i get 15:18:03 ? 15:20:25 No idea. Next question. 15:22:42 hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC5A540.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:27:51 -!- boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:35:48 Mohamdu [~Mohamdu@CPE00222d53fe20-CM00222d53fe1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 15:50:56 -!- mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/2010031700]] 15:53:57 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 16:04:34 -!- stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:07 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 16:15:49 chandler: I created a coloring-type for Ruby. Feel free to integrate it in lisppaste ;) 16:20:57 mjonsson_ [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:21:20 -!- mjonsson_ [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:30:50 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-42-86.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 16:46:41 -!- hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC5A540.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:48:21 -!- wgd [~will@adsl-71-157-175-66.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:50:04 wgd [~will@adsl-68-91-214-127.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 16:57:53 -!- wgd [~will@adsl-68-91-214-127.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:59:51 wgd [~will@adsl-68-91-214-127.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 17:08:11 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:10:40 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 17:22:11 -!- wgd [~will@adsl-68-91-214-127.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 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functions in c. jit isn't as fast as client would like 22:50:09 tsk tsk 22:50:17 at least you HAVE clients. 22:50:24 i'm not complaining 22:50:26 When I was coming up, we'd have KILLED for clients. 22:50:35 who says i didn't 22:50:45 You try telling that to today's youth ... 22:51:29 so semi-seriously: you're using alists; they're too slow, and your response is to write C code? Can you not use something faster than alists, like hashes? 22:52:00 no. there is a requirement to use alists 22:52:03 huh 22:52:19 so you're writing library code, and the client has some (heh) client code that's also in scheme? 22:52:49 a large amount of scheme code 22:52:55 yay for them! 22:53:50 it uses a homebrew state-persisting web framework that predates the continuation-based ones. and happens to use alists for that and then build on those alists throughout the running system 22:54:20 so it has to use alists, and, so that we don't have a regression when we speed it up, it has to do all the error-checking of the old code 22:54:44 anyway, long story 22:55:37 real code (as opposed to homework assignments) typically has a long story attached :) 22:55:46 i used to write super-efficient c code, so this is a nice getting back to nature 22:56:09 I haven't written C in so long that I doubt I even remember how 22:57:03 i was in an interview a few years back where they gave me coding questions 22:57:23 they didn't know scheme, but we did both know c, so i did that 22:57:50 i started using labels and gotos, while explaining that they were there as tools to help me refine the algorithm 22:58:51 I _do_ remember I used "gotos" a lot: I'd put a label near the end of the function, invariably named "cleanup", and each place in the function where I checked the return value from some call, I'd say "if !success goto cleanup" 22:58:59 it is in the class of things in which, first you learn that it's wrong, and then you learn when it's right 22:59:07 it was the only way I could think of to ensure I free'd malloc'd stuff, closed file handles, etc 23:00:28 actually, there are a few uses for gotos: (1) super-efficiency when it's more important than readability, (2) as an interim tool for finding the right algorithm, (3) systems-programming-ish stuff like longjumps and such 23:02:19 i think it was that same interview where, speaking aloud as i worked for the interviewer's benefit, i said something like "can't put this here because that results in the test happening twice" and he interrupted me about "premature optimization" 23:02:47 it's not optimization. it's understanding the algorithm the first time you write it, as you're writing it, and feeling if you're doing it optimally :) 23:03:34 interviews are tough, from either side 23:03:48 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 23:04:26 when i interviewed people, i found the best way was to get them talking about something they'd worked on, and then see how they answered questions about it 23:04:49 however, apparently you can't do that now. too much worries that you'll have the appearance of hearing proprietary info 23:05:18 although if they've done open source, my old favorite method still works 23:13:46 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-198.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:13:54 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:17:58 nicktick [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/nicktick] has joined #scheme 23:25:23 What are some neat learning excersices one might attempt in order to explore the realm of macroing? 23:25:59 -!- nicktick [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/nicktick] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:28:43 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:30:05 drat. 23:30:19 if you hadn't said "macroing", I'd happily recommend Project Euler or Programming Praxis 23:32:28 Uh 23:33:31 Actually those do look rather interesting! 23:33:49 I will try them, but specifically I want to have some exposure to the power of developing macros 23:35:33 neilv: the alists are mutated? 23:35:47 eli: no 23:36:04 Are they being created with some standard interface? 23:36:16 (which can be modified) 23:36:48 eli: there are many ways to optimize this. client specifically wants to see what performance is like if i rewrite certain procedures in c 23:38:17 the most expensive error-checking is actually the most redundant, too. but for safety they want to keep doing it 23:38:41 Isn't it obvious that it would be "roughly the same speed" anyway? I mean, there's practically no overhead for `assq' besides walking the pointers and comparing pointers, and I don't see how you can optimize that with C... 23:39:50 eli: yes, in my pure scheme rewrite of some legacy functions, i use assq whenever possible 23:40:53 also, client sometimes has reasons that they can't tell me about 23:41:05 Ah, so it's not *that* that you're optimizing. 23:41:23 Hopefully none of the religious nature. 23:41:44 "Every seventh year, the program must suspend itself for the whole year." 23:42:34 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 23:43:20 i investigate things, give client analysis, answer their questions, and if they say they want me to do some exploratory work that i didn't recommend, i do it 23:46:23 they tend to rely on my judgment, but occasionally they have info or considrations i'm not aware of, and that's fine 23:48:01 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:49:01 it's just a shame if we end up adding new c extensions to this system. it's almost to the point that we can eliminate the remaining c code and be pure scheme. no more cgc then 23:49:51 -!- MonononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:57:54 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.205] has joined #scheme