00:04:40 metasyntax` [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has joined #scheme 00:12:26 -!- _JFT_ [~JFT@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: _JFT_] 00:16:48 -!- fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e02b45e.bb.sky.com] has left #scheme 00:18:20 saccade [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:18:25 zbigniew_ [~zb@li177-156.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 00:18:52 MonononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:19:20 -!- zbigniew_ [~zb@li177-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:23:00 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:25:44 zbigniew_ [~zb@li177-156.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 00:26:19 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:26:25 -!- zbigniew_ is now known as zbigniew 00:26:56 -!- bohunm [~mbohun@202.124.74.141] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:27:19 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:32 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.141] has joined #scheme 00:34:45 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:37:11 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:47:25 i rewrote the problematic function, including removing some very expensive error checking, and now it doesn't even show up in the profiler, even if i increase the sample frequency 00:47:43 -!- tcoppi [~nuclear@57c3ed63-1294-45bd-a8e8-cdcc07cfa16f.static.grokthis.net] has left #scheme 00:50:27 Axioplase: Yes, Elijah would be the popular American version. "Eliyahu" is how I spell it, but that just happens to be because Israelis tend to use phonetic spelling when needed. 00:50:47 neilv: You mean it doesn't show up and it's faster, or doesn't show up and still slow? 00:51:15 tons faster 00:51:40 So -- great success... 00:52:06 that's with doing profile-thunk with delay 0.01 and 100,000 iterations 00:52:16 eli: and, do you pronounce your own name as "ee la ee" or "ell ee"? (I should learn IPA) 00:52:24 i put a test in there so that hopefully the jit isn't just optimizing it out 00:52:51 -!- MonononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:52:57 Axioplase: The latter. (Which I usually explain as "L.E." without a pause between them.) 00:53:14 neilv: BTW, do you have actual (negative) experience with ICANN people? 00:53:44 Ok. Thanks :) 00:54:06 FWIW, the guy didn't look like a squatter, but completely unreachable. 00:55:59 i did not hear back from him. it is possible that our emails got flagged as spam or that he has been on holiday or something 00:59:05 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 00:59:15 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:59:34 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:07:51 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.90.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:23:51 HG` [~HG@xdslex020.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 01:28:13 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:43:30 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:50 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 01:44:53 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:45:38 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-143-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:51:30 that 4000ms process is now 440ms. and there are a bunch of other opportunities to optimize 01:53:33 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:55:19 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-206.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:01:13 jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:02:07 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:02:58 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:04:12 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslex020.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:04:36 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 02:09:00 -!- curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:10:04 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 02:11:00 -!- cpr420 [~cpr@unaffiliated/cpr420] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 02:11:25 MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:11:29 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:15:37 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:16:35 the text output of the plt profiler is indeed not the easiest thing to trace through, but using it was a huge win 02:18:36 -!- luz [~davids@189.60.69.82] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 02:25:05 devslashnull [~james@220-253-134-121.TAS.netspace.net.au] has joined #scheme 02:29:26 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 02:32:55 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 02:34:57 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:40:08 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:45:46 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: jeapostrophe] 02:46:05 how can I get the arity/argument structure of a procedure in ikarus? 02:49:42 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:49:51 sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 02:59:44 i should've kept better track of my billable hours today. i've been working over the course of 15 hours, but took lots of breaks 03:00:16 so i can only record it as a solid 8-hour day 03:02:00 neilv: is 8 hours your best attempt at an unbiased estimate? 03:02:30 the official american workday is 8 hours 03:02:50 the official american week is 168 03:02:53 so? 03:03:07 what actually happened? 03:03:07 i know i worked at least 8 hours, so 8 is safe to claim 03:03:34 claiming fewer hours than you think you worked is cheating your employer 03:04:06 it'll make you less motivated, and in the long term they'll get less value from you 03:04:23 -!- MononcQc [~Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:04:55 they're paying you to be right in an expert way 03:04:57 trust the market 03:06:27 nicktick [~nicktick@202.103.95.199] has joined #scheme 03:06:48 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:06:55 this is a special consulting client 03:07:13 which dialect of shceme has a compiler? and has the most 3rd party libraries? 03:07:22 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:07:28 neilv: run through whatever timings you _do_ have available (e.g. mail sent, file modification times) and if you can prove at least N hours for N>8, claim it 03:07:41 nicktick, for some definition of compiler, they all do. 03:07:42 nicktick: when in doubt, use racket-lang.org 03:07:44 s/shceme/scheme/ 03:08:03 native compiler 03:08:06 neilv: oh, then you're just devaluing the global economy 03:08:26 nicktick, does compiling thru C count? using a JIT? 03:08:33 foof: I don't think that's the best answer 03:08:38 if not, try ikarus 03:09:02 if yes, then Racket, Gambit, Chicken, are popular answers I know of. 03:09:06 fare, thru C or directly to native code 03:09:39 which one has the most libraries? 03:09:56 Gambit & Chicken go through C. Racket can, too. Bigloo does it but sacrifices continuations by default. 03:10:44 Racket seems to have a lot. For system programming, Chicken seems to have more. Gambit has a sizeable versatile amount, too. 03:11:05 'racket' still sounds unnatural 03:11:06 it is rare that people know what questions to ask 03:11:45 i just tell them to start using racket. most likely it's as good as any other option for them. and if it isn't, then they know what question to ask 03:12:24 I like chicken's egg . is other dialects has the same facility? 03:13:22 s/is/does/ 03:13:23 nicktick: racket has someting much better - a network package system that transparently retrieves libraries specified in the source code, of a compatible version 03:14:14 nicktick: take that as "different" - "better" is debatable 03:14:40 ok 03:14:53 and also we have polaroids of foof doing debatable things with farm animals :) 03:15:02 versioning is nice, but I at least dislike unpredictable network access and implicit installation of software 03:17:20 nicktick: let's say you want to add html-parsing to your program. you add a line to the top like: (require (planet neil/htmlprag:1:6)) 03:17:21 nicktick: don't listen to him, that was just someone who looks like me with those sheep! 03:17:54 nicktick: thereafter, your program should always get a compatible version of that library, perhaps with backward-compatible bug fixes 03:19:08 it also documents what version of the library your program requires, in the program text itself 03:19:34 and that library will be re-installed every time a different user runs the same scheme code, and the installed version could be different for different users if you (or planet) are offline 03:20:28 the equivalent in chicken is to one time run: "chicken-install -s htmlprag" 03:20:49 yes 03:20:49 then in your code you can do (use htmlprag) and it's the same for all users 03:20:59 foof: with that chicken example, you don't know what version you're getting, nor whether it's a compatible version 03:21:10 and when and if you want to try a new version you just run the install again 03:21:12 foof: and you have to know that you have to install that library 03:21:46 neilv: if you know to use (planet ...) you know to install it 03:22:14 foof: let's say you inherit a chunk of code and need to get it running 03:22:28 versioned modules would definitely be an improvement, i'm not arguing there 03:22:31 with racket, you open the file in the ide and hit the run button 03:22:49 i really just dislike combining the install process into the runtime import mechanism 03:23:04 it bothers me a little in some ways, but it's so very convenient 03:23:24 especially if you have lots of experience inheriting code and needing to get it to work again 03:23:46 well, i'm a long-time debian user - i want to know every package on my system and why it's there 03:24:03 also, with racket, the libraries have interdependencies. the system handles all those for you 03:24:13 chicken handles interdependencies as well 03:25:07 foof: i'm a long-time debian user as well. i believe debian was one of the precedents discussed when the racket thing was being designed 03:28:16 nicktick: anyway, Racket and Chicken are the only two Schemes with large sources of 3rd-party modules available for easy install 03:28:25 I will try both chicken and racket 03:28:31 nicktick: basically, there are several great scheme implementations, a lot of good ones, and a gazillion ones that only a mother could love 03:28:49 just start using one of the most popular, general ones, and you probably can't go wrong 03:29:33 only after getting your feet wet do you know what you actually need and don't need, so you can't analyze too much up front 03:29:39 ok,I 'm wondering that why schemers put all their forces to a single scheme impelemtation? 03:30:07 s/why/why not/ 03:30:35 scheme users and implementers tend to be individualists 03:30:38 nicktick: scheme is more powerful than most languages, and has correspondingly more trade-offs to deal with, meaning there's room for more implementations 03:30:47 that too 03:30:59 nicktick: while we're at it why don't the whole world not put all their forces in a single programming language and implementation? 03:31:09 I nominate FORTRAN on IBM 360 03:31:34 so whereas python only has a handful of implementations based on the platform (CPython, JPython, PyPy, etc.) scheme has implementations with a lot of niches 03:31:43 :) 03:32:07 and also there is some not-invented-here syndrome 03:32:25 that too 03:32:34 and people who have bought into particular platforms, and which necessarily have to invent things in parallel 03:33:56 yes 03:34:40 maybe a little waste of social is inevitable. 03:34:49 s/social/social force/ 03:35:09 nicktick, if you understand how to solve the social problems of programmers, you can be rich and/or famous 03:35:17 ;) 03:35:20 really 03:37:23 thx all for your help 03:38:53 this channel is very active. 03:39:14 nicktick: for example, there are three major java schemes: kawa, sisc and jscheme. jscheme is very minimal, kawa is fast but doesn't do full continuations, sisc is balanced but slower than kawa 03:39:34 nicktick: if you don't know scheme, you can start with this: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/index.html 03:40:01 ideally you could pool your efforts into a single java implementation with a small core but full libraries, and which is fast but also handles full continuations 03:40:22 but this is actually a lot harder than just writing 3 80% implementations 03:41:00 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:41:06 my favorite schemes for the last few years: racket, chicken, sisc, gambit 03:41:52 for C based implementations, the major compilers are racket (jit) and bigloo, chicken, gambit (scheme->c), and these all have tradeoffs 03:41:55 use racket by default, keep the others handy for unusual requirements 03:42:05 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 03:42:34 bigloo mostly sacrifices features in exchange for speed, chicken tends to be slower than gambit but compiles much faster 03:43:09 neilv, I knew scheme 03:43:23 racket is the most balanced of those, though as a JIT it tends not to be as fast as the Scheme->C compilers on benchmarks 03:43:48 http://docs.racket-lang.org/ 03:44:52 i'm reading that site. 03:44:54 all of those are large, complex implementations. if you want either fast startup time for scripts, or an extension language to embed in an app, you probably want to start looking at the interpreters 03:45:14 racket has fast startup time for scripts too 03:45:44 I want to use a dialect of scheme to develop a standalone software. 03:46:21 which should have lots of libs, good UI toolkit support and network libs. 03:46:32 using scheme to develop a full app. 03:46:40 not scripting 03:46:44 racket has a cross-platform gui toolkit 03:46:58 how about chicken on that? 03:47:15 Does chicken has one? 03:47:20 chicken has (incomplete) qt bindings 03:47:21 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@225-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:47:39 chicken also has sdl and gtk bindings 03:47:59 yep, and gl / xlib / fltk etc 03:48:19 I saw racket has an IDE 03:48:25 a gui app in racket will run on linux/unix, windows, macs. that's how the programming environment is implemented 03:48:26 chicken can use emacs too. 03:48:52 i use both emacs and drracket for racket 03:49:25 well, in the UI part that I will implement, there are lots of interaction to control(such as textbox,images) 03:49:40 s/control/controls/ 03:50:26 which one(gl/xlib/fltk and that of racket) is the most suitable for that work? 03:51:46 using xlib/gl directly is suck 03:51:58 I didn't use fltk before. 03:52:06 you might want to do it using a web browser, backed by racket's continuation-based web server 03:52:37 that's where most apps will be 03:52:42 or chicken's spiffy web server 03:52:45 neilv: on my system: 03:52:55 that's not a good idea,because the performance will be pannic if there were lots of people visit the same app. 03:53:02 time chibi-scheme -q -p'(+ 2 2)' => 0m0.003s 03:53:17 time chibi-scheme -p'(+ 2 2)' => 0m0.028s 03:53:37 time mzscheme -e '(+ 2 2)' => 0m0.333s 03:53:45 (average after several runs) 03:54:25 looks like maybe a fraction of a second constant overhead 03:55:15 does racket's GUI support is good to the above requirement? 03:55:15 gauche comes in at 0m0.010s 03:55:30 iirc, at one point racket added compiling of script files. i don't know whether that's still there 03:55:46 but in any case, some real-world example might be more relevant 03:56:04 well, if you're going to compile then the scheme->c compilers generally win, they can product static executables 03:56:33 which one(fltk, that of racket) do support create custom control? 03:56:44 s/create/creating/ 03:57:11 neilv: if you're using the scripts heavily in shell scripts, as a replacement for sed/awk/tr etc. then the startup time is crucial 03:57:32 and which dialect's multi-threading support is good? 03:57:56 with racket, you write the entire script in racket, and it's many times faster than the atrocity of traditional unix shell scripting :) 03:58:31 that said, there are other implementations that do startup _much_ slower than even racket 03:59:16 *nicktick* leaving for lunch 03:59:26 *foof* too 03:59:40 racket's multithreading is solid, and it has various layered concurrency constructs 04:00:38 virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 04:05:53 neilv: don't underestimate the speed of traditional unix shell scripting 04:06:21 the shell itself is slow, but you don't spend time in the shell 04:06:41 i'm very familiar with it for 20 years now :) 04:06:54 the individual applications have been highly tuned, so it would be very difficult to beat sort(1) in scheme 04:07:21 and a pipeline lets you automatically take advantage of multiple processors 04:07:56 you end up execing processes and subshells to do what should be a handful of instructions, and to do it in a fragile way 04:08:55 -!- nicktick [~nicktick@202.103.95.199] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:09:25 in a badly written script, maybe - there's always a line where a higher-level language is better 04:10:22 nicktick [~nicktick@202.103.95.199] has joined #scheme 04:11:26 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:12:57 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:15:26 i _did_ want to go to lunch, but the rain is practically falling horizontally :/ 04:16:42 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@pantagruel.mccme.ru] has joined #scheme 04:19:01 bbarr [~bbarr@208-58-210-97.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:19:16 so I should try racket first. 04:19:58 right? 04:20:03 Quick noobish question, in mit scheme why can't I do this: (apply (car '(+)) '(2 3)) 04:20:28 nicktick: that's what i tell people 04:20:33 :) 04:21:23 bbar: (apply (eval (car '(+))) '(2 3)) 04:21:37 maybe 04:22:14 oops s/bbar/bbarr 04:22:31 bbarr: (apply (car (list +)) '(2 3)) 04:23:31 foof: it works, what's the difference between quoting and listing? 04:23:37 *nicktick* where there is no x64 version of racket? 04:24:09 bbarr: type '+ and + at the repl 04:24:21 haha 04:24:23 my bad. 04:24:30 Its getting too late for me. 04:24:32 http://download.racket-lang.org/racket-5-0-bin-i386-win32-exe.html 04:24:42 only win32 version for windows 04:24:54 foof: thanks. 04:25:26 where can I found x64 version for windows platform ? 04:26:19 Recur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 04:26:42 or when can x64 version come out? 04:26:56 x64 version of win 7 04:27:30 the DrRacket looks like DrScheme which I used before. 04:27:41 racket is the new name of plt scheme 04:27:51 really? 04:28:21 but I knew that DrScheme couldn't compile files into native code before. 04:29:33 -!- Recur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:29:50 when did plt-scheme change name? 04:30:09 it's long time that I didn't use scheme. 04:30:13 maybe a month ago 04:30:32 http://racket-lang.org/new-name.html 04:33:11 whether do I choose the experimental languages? 04:34:12 maybe swindle or Big? 04:34:22 you want "Use the language declared in the source" 04:34:41 and put "#lang scheme" or "#lang scheme/base" at the top of your file 04:35:17 try R5RS first 04:35:37 you mean #lang racket 04:36:15 Miyavix3 [~profoak@c-76-29-96-30.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:36:38 SICP uses mit scheme, which is barely maintained these days 04:36:41 Hi, I just started reading SICP and I was just wondering which interpreter I should use. I'm running Fedora Linux. 04:36:46 -!- Miyavix3 [~profoak@c-76-29-96-30.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:36:47 oops, yeah 04:37:06 but any scheme should do - Racket is great for learning 04:37:25 for doing sicp, you can use: http://www.neilvandyke.org/sicp-plt/ 04:37:35 Miyavix3 [~profoak@c-76-29-96-30.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:37:45 Hi, I just started reading SICP and I was just wondering which interpreter I should use. I'm running Fedora Linux. (I got disconnected) 04:38:02 -!- bbarr [~bbarr@208-58-210-97.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: bbarr] 04:43:36 Miyavix3: any should be good. 04:43:59 Axioplase: I don't know any, that's the problem. Do you know one that's in my repos? 04:44:01 Gambit, guile, racket (formerly PLT) 04:44:43 I like gambit, but you'll also find developers of other implementations here. 04:44:59 -!- neilv [~user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:45:36 chicken has also some users here. 04:46:11 jgracin [~jgracin@vipnet6542.mobile.carnet.hr] has joined #scheme 04:46:15 Ok I'll check 04:46:33 google for "list of scheme implementations", you'll find plenty. 04:47:50 The five I listed are some of the most famous, with a good user base, and libraries. 04:48:47 gambit-c? 04:49:51 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 04:50:00 -!- zbigniew [~zb@li177-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:51:18 -!- virl [~virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:51:21 jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:52:17 yes 04:52:26 turbofail [~user@c-67-180-111-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:52:57 fast interpreter, and very efficient compiler. 04:53:18 It lacks libraries though (but you're welcome to write some :P) 04:54:22 waltermai [~user@c-68-54-64-79.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:56:08 Axioplase: Well I don't think I'm that advanced just yet... but I will try it out. IT should be good for what I'm using it for. Thanks 04:56:39 Any of the above will be more than enough for SICP. 04:58:07 Axioplase: Is it as good as people say it is 04:58:08 ? 04:58:24 SICP? I'd say yes. 04:59:05 Axioplase: Ok good, you've been more than helpful (: 04:59:08 thank you 04:59:16 you're welcome 04:59:50 -!- Miyavix3 [~profoak@c-76-29-96-30.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:59:51 I'm working through SICP right now. The makers of DrScheme have written a worthwhile critique of it, but I think there's a lot of value in the text. 05:00:13 yeah, if you run into problems using any particular scheme for SICP exercises, i'm sure you can find someone in here to answer questions :) 05:00:24 which critique is that? 05:00:40 but it doesn't make you a good schemer automatically. It seems that only writing lots of scheme code can do that... lemme find it, toast` 05:02:09 I got that 05:02:43 when did plt-scheme compile file into native code? 05:02:53 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:03:02 my take on sicp, even though no one asked: it's devicive. you'll either love it or hate it. for those still green in computing, it will either "change your world" or you'll find it revolting 05:03:17 i find few people willing to admit neutrality on it 05:03:46 nicktick_ [~nicktick@202.103.95.199] has joined #scheme 05:03:54 (divisive, if i knew how to spell) 05:05:38 toast`: that seems to be about right in my experience. I love it, my prof hates it. BUT, I can see both his and the plt folks' point. 05:05:49 there 05:06:26 what's the crux of PLT's criticism? 05:06:27 's a lot of decently complex mathematical applications that they use to explain concepts, when that's not what your average schemer uses scheme for, I think. 05:06:34 could be wrong on that last point, of course. 05:06:56 you spend as much time learning the concepts of the particular applications as you do the programming concepts. 05:07:14 I think that's good practice though, as each new application will demand some measure of that. 05:07:41 -!- nicktick [~nicktick@202.103.95.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:07:50 the plt folks are pedagogues, so the bulk of their critique is that it's too much for first year students, horribly simplify their argument. 05:08:16 ^to horribly... 05:08:41 yeah, i can see that 05:09:08 It's overkill. which is why i think it's awesome. ;) 05:09:11 it took me a good year to get through everything in there. A good year in parallel with learning cl, python, haskell, and my day job, but still 05:09:21 -!- nicktick_ is now known as nicktick 05:09:31 i couldn't hack that much when i was first year, to be sure 05:09:54 no doubt, toast`. that's probably something approaching a common experience. 05:10:46 part of why i think i love sicp is precisely the feeling that my own education was lacking. 05:10:50 toast, whether cl means common lisp? 05:10:58 nicktick: yes 05:11:11 *toast`* went to a java school 05:11:15 I'm in the middle of my first application of scheme post-SICP, and I feel like I'm learning scheme all over again. or, I never learned it in the first place, or something. but I feel that the book was very beneficial. 05:11:46 SICP isn't about learning scheme, but about using scheme to explore some important abstract concepts. 05:11:49 did you try chicken before? 05:12:11 SICP is used as tool to describe algorithm. 05:12:20 Fare: indeed, though some measure of scheme is learnt implicitly. 05:12:22 s/tool/a tool/ 05:13:01 the auths say as much. that's why I think I didn't learn much scheme, but still benefitted from the book immeasurably. 05:13:41 hah, one of my favorite quotes, "We are using powerful method of synthesis here: wishful thinking." 05:15:00 The SICP criticism of the HtDP authors is that it is a bad *intro to programming* book. 05:15:46 It has some examples like the fact that SICP uses a lot of integer recursion to demonstrate it -- and that's the harder to grasp kind of recursion, when put against structural based recursion. 05:16:04 -!- {Nathan} [~nathan@pa-76-2-65-221.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:16:29 eli: do you mean for loops and such? 05:16:29 SICP supposes you are good at maths, and already know some algebra. 05:17:04 its target audience was the MIT sophomores, after all. 05:17:10 eli: SICP also goes to pains to make clear the difference between a recursive process and a recursive procedure. 05:17:27 i dunno -- i somewhat wonder if it might be good as a *3rd* year course 05:17:36 It also has a good amount of anachronisms, like the mostly irrelevant data-oriented or whatever, or like the bad explanations of tail calls in terms of a C jump, or its simplistic approach to OO, or its over enthusiasm for side-effects, or the fact that ot spends a huge amount of time doing redundant set-car!/set-cdr! exercises. 05:17:51 teach java/python intro, and data structures. hack some algorithms in C 05:18:08 then come back to scheme and learn the real guts of _theory_ 05:18:30 Fare: I can tell you for a fact that the MIT sophomores have suffered it just like the others -- and *many* hate scheme with a passion as a result. 05:18:39 toast`, Java+C as introduction? Way to make some of the students hate programming.. 05:18:41 eli: interesting. 05:18:57 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@vipnet6542.mobile.carnet.hr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:19:00 Michael - that's what they do _today_ 05:19:13 i'm suggesting adding SICP, not adding C/Java 05:19:14 DrRacket crashed again,the same as before. 05:19:25 eli: that supports toast` 's hypothesis that you either love SICP or hate it. 05:19:35 eli: that is unfortunate though. 05:19:49 I guess the hating portion will slightly shift towards better students with Java 05:19:53 we need to split computing into theory and practice, instead of muddling it all. 05:20:01 It was kind of ok when people (in MIT or elsewhere) cared more to filter people since every student and their cat wanted to get into CS. 05:20:18 waltermai: No, it doesn't support that. 05:20:40 electrical engineers spend some time in physics learning about maxwells equations, and then go back to ee courses using equivalences and simulation to solve and design stuff 05:20:46 eli: are you suggesting that everyone hates it? 05:21:02 eli: did you accept any cat? 05:21:19 waltermai: i think eli is saying that SICP caused hate of Scheme. My premise only relates to love/hate of SICP itself 05:21:29 waltermai: No. You're assuming that I hated it, but when I went through that course I was crazy about it. 05:21:53 schools are so desperate right now that they *are* accepting every cat, and then curving until enough pass 05:21:57 eli: I'm trying not to assume anything. question marks are my friend. 05:22:07 i think i agree that it might not be the best introduction to programming 05:22:08 s/friend/friends/ 05:22:33 However, as a tool for *educating* students, it can fail glaringly. 05:23:21 turbofail: you may be right, though "best" is a judgement of a sort. 05:23:28 It took me a while to realize that making those 2.5% of the really smart students enjoy and not really teach anyone else is *easy*. The really hard stuff is doing what I'm supposed to be doing -- teaching. 05:23:30 it's certainly a tall order. 05:23:37 i started with sicp after a year or two of messing with python, and i think the python experience helped me appreciate it more 05:23:49 foof: re "and the installed version could be different for different users if ..." -- that's wrong; neilv's line was (require (planet neil/htmlprag:1:6)) which specifies version 1.6. If he didn't use that, then it would get the newest version available, but if you don't write a version, then you declare that your code works with *any* version. 05:24:12 yeah, i love SICP. but honestly i would have hated it in 1st year 05:24:18 eli: do you cater to those 2.5% too? 05:24:49 eli: does it work better when you sort people by mental ability/style/personality before you teach? 05:24:51 foof: And re racket's startup time -- when you run "mzscheme -e '(+ 2 2)'", you're starting it with the default `racket' language that has a ton of stuff, hence the slow startup time. 05:25:28 can't the racket language lazy init, and load a preinitialized startup state? 05:25:34 Fare: a fair question, though he may not be saying he does that 05:26:02 eli: if you don't write a version, does it automatically upgrade for you? 05:26:04 foof: If, for example, I compare "racket -e '(void)'" with "racket -I racket/base -e '(void)'", then for 20 runs I get 3.38s user 0.73s system 99% cpu 4.111 total for the first, and 0.54s user 0.18s system 99% cpu 0.728 total for the second. 05:27:19 toast`: No, it needs to populate the global namespace. It could do that with some autoload thing, but there's not much point for that since for scripts where speed is more important you should use the `racket/base' language. 05:27:52 oh yea someone complained in #racket that racket's startup time with a compiled binary was really slow, like more than a second 05:27:59 fair. i always demand every feature exist now, just for my convenience :-) 05:28:00 but i dont think he made a bug report about it 05:28:29 Fare: I don't sort people, but it quickly becomes clear who's where. As for catering for the 2.5% -- yes of course I do: it's tricky to do some lambda calculus stuff that excites the top students yet is still understandable by average students too. 05:29:36 do you give them extra activity? 05:29:55 if they're really that smart they'll find their own extra activity 05:29:56 foof: If you don't write a version spec, then you get the newest one *unless* you already have some version installed -- and in that case it will just use that. I think that the principle is to minimize the kind of surprises you're concerned about -- like getting different versions or getting it to reinstall packages at random times. 05:30:13 (I was thinking of MBTI sorting - I know that some dance schools separate students by groups NF/NT/SP/SJ) 05:31:03 all the acronym realizations I can come up with for that are silly. 05:31:08 Fare: Mostly what turbofail said -- the smart students find more stuff to do and to read, and some will come to me and ask for pointers. But there's no additional work that is needed to get them hooked. 05:31:37 no feet/no toes... 05:32:00 Fare: I actually do both the ugrad and the msc versions of the course now, and for the latter I give more homeworks -- and that's unrelated to the percentage of excited students and how much they get hooked. 05:36:04 foof: (Probably obvious, but I forgot to mention that the "-I racket/base" flag tells it to use that module to initialize the namespace that will evaluate the (void) call.) 05:37:24 eli: what do you do between semesters? 05:37:37 fight crime 05:37:41 (you change names for your projects?) 05:41:09 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Quit: off] 05:45:32 zbigniew [~zb@li177-156.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 05:45:45 when students come to me and ask for pointers, I tell them to use C. 05:45:56 *badoom pah* 05:46:08 FFI? 05:46:21 Foreign Function Interface. 05:46:27 yeah. for pointers 05:46:32 why use C? 05:46:41 Ah. No, I was just doing a bad joke. 05:46:49 i know. mine was badder. 05:50:09 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 05:52:21 Fare: Hack, of course. 05:53:10 Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-113-181.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:58:55 -!- saint_cypher [~saint_cyp@dsl081-240-057.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:00:56 -!- nicktick [~nicktick@202.103.95.199] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 06:01:23 nicktick [~nicktick@202.103.95.199] has joined #scheme 06:17:59 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:22:07 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-67-172-254-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:36:04 ASau [~user@77.246.231.164] has joined #scheme 06:38:51 -!- Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-113-181.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:40:05 -!- prince [~prince@203.246.179.177] has quit [Quit:   .] 06:41:54 -!- myu2 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13:18:46 That's far better. 13:19:06 Generally it's scheme > C{++} > therest 13:20:49 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-35-203.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 13:22:14 askhader: Really? You'd rather be writing C++ than Common Lisp? Factor? Haskell? ML? Dylan? 13:22:33 Or any of the other decent languages? 13:23:07 Let me clarify. I'm entering into my second year of computer science. Haven't written any common lisp, factor haskell, ML or Dylan. However I am eager to begin porting my scheme code to haskell so that I can increase my familairity with it. 13:23:09 *wingo-pi* has a guile terminal open to his work software tho 13:25:37 -!- yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 13:32:00 yosafbridge [~yosafbrid@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 13:35:03 dzhus [~sphinx@89-178-205-107.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 13:37:50 -!- dfkjjkfd_ [~paulh@225-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:42:31 ejs [~eugen@203-104-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 13:43:33 -!- karme [~user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:46:29 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:46:53 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:59 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:47:37 karme [~user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 13:49:20 -!- saccade__ [~saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:51:44 fradgers- [~fradgers-@5e02b45e.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 13:58:52 -!- nicktick [~userIns@58.20.81.194] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:20 nicktick [~userIns@58.20.81.194] has joined #scheme 14:04:18 -!- qebab [finnrobi@heidi.itea.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:47 Mandar [~armand@pha75-21-78-228-186-233.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 14:15:38 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 14:16:37 qebab [finnrobi@apollo.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #scheme 14:18:56 bweaver [~user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:23:37 saccade__ [~saccade@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:25:13 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 14:37:29 -!- saccade__ [~saccade@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:40:29 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:40:49 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 14:41:15 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-140.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:00:03 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:01:27 bbarr [8cef64a2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.140.239.100.162] has joined #scheme 15:02:38 -!- jyujin [~mdeininge@vs166245.vserver.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:49 Good morning all. 15:04:03 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:04:54 -!- ASau [~user@77.246.231.164] has quit [Quit: off] 15:05:57 -!- JoelMcCracken [~joelmccra@pool-96-235-12-42.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:06:52 morn 15:07:05 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-137.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:16:57 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 15:26:51 -!- xwl [~user@123.115.110.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:28:31 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 15:34:38 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:35:08 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 15:36:41 stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 15:37:00 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:43:09 -!- copec [~copecd@64.244.102.130] has quit [] 15:45:58 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-165-49.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:48:57 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:53:06 -!- nicktick [~userIns@58.20.81.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:57:09 nicktick [~userIns@58.20.81.194] has joined #scheme 15:58:49 curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:00:11 -!- Mandar [~armand@pha75-21-78-228-186-233.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 16:02:24 -!- curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:03:45 saccade__ [~saccade@pool-71-174-45-194.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:09:19 -!- futilius [~otheruser@2001:470:d:128:216:3eff:fe86:c70e] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:10:02 futilius [~otheruser@2001:470:d:128:216:3eff:fe86:c70e] has joined #scheme 16:11:11 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@207.149.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:16:31 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Quit: ZNC - 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Is it for novices only? 19:35:08 dz0004455 [~Adium@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:36:03 alvatar [~alvatar@213.119.20.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 19:38:11 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:43:51 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 19:50:56 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:55:12 hadronzoo-mobile [~hadronzoo@adsl-208-190-39-79.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 19:55:18 -!- hadronzoo-mobile [~hadronzoo@adsl-208-190-39-79.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:46 peddie_ [~peddie@c-67-160-245-238.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:56:51 -!- ejs [~eugen@203-104-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:56:57 -!- peddie_ [~peddie@c-67-160-245-238.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:17 hotblack23 [~jh@p4FC59BEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:10:17 -!- bbarr [8cef64a2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.140.239.100.162] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:11:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-231-17.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:11:59 -!- nicktick [~userIns@58.20.81.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:21:06 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: being productive...] 20:21:54 micahjohnston [~Adium@174-23-77-18.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 20:22:12 -!- micahjohnston [~Adium@174-23-77-18.slkc.qwest.net] has left #scheme 20:22:12 -!- alvatar [~alvatar@213.119.20.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:25:42 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 20:27:33 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 20:32:04 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #scheme 20:46:10 neilv [~user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 20:49:07 Nils^ [steele@beegees.mtveurope.org] has joined #scheme 20:50:07 did the racket users email list have a barf? it seems to have dropped some messages 20:50:35 looks like during a transition period of removing the "lists." from the address 20:50:49 hey schemers. If have a global variable and need to re-define it from inside a function. simply use (define xy #f) returns "bad define placement". (set! xy #f) is correct syntax and placement, but does it change the global version or just a local copy during the execution of the parent function? 20:51:44 set! changes the global version 20:52:04 more accurately, it will mutate whatever `xy' is in scope at the time 20:52:53 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:53:25 good to know. 20:54:11 my software, Denemo, has some really good and complex scheme scripts now. Great :) 20:54:25 the fact that you are using set! is usually a bad sign 20:54:30 are you sure you know what you're doing? 20:54:34 I think, yes. 20:54:37 ok 20:54:41 I'm pretty sure. 20:56:48 alvatar [~alvatar@207.149.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 20:57:03 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-208-190-39-79.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 20:57:05 My software can invoke commands via a mouse-click (through menus) and keyboard-shortcuts. The shortcut version is the "real" version and awaits a second keypress after the first one. But using the menu version should not wait for a key because its not obvious whats happening, so it shows a gui-version instead. I have a variable that is switched #t if a script is triggered by a keypress and if the script ends it switches back to #f, so I can test this in 20:57:52 But sometimes scripts are invoked by other scripts and this is the place where this keypress? check will fail, so I have to reset it already in the script, even before its done. Thats why I need to change a global variable. 20:59:10 -!- luz [~davids@189.60.69.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:35 -!- neilv [~user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:00:48 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:08:12 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.155.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:46 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-208-190-39-79.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 21:19:54 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-208-190-39-79.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:44 -!- Nils^ [steele@beegees.mtveurope.org] has left #scheme 21:32:54 curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:40:28 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-165-49.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:40:46 -!- paint [~paint@unaffiliated/paint] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:46:20 kuribas [~user@d54C2AC1E.access.telenet.be] has 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